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2014/09/28 20:38:20
Subject: Re:[Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
Firebreak wrote: Woops. Seems I got the KS feedback thread locked.
Well, we probably were talking about stuff they ("they" here being Robert and Dave) don't want us to talk about. Or maybe not being enthusiastic enough.
EDIT: I've had fun writing in the hover tech thread... but it has made me realize, once again, how much the Nu NuCoal and TPS have crapped all over the setting.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/09/28 20:40:13
2014/09/28 20:57:46
Subject: Re:[Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
Firebreak wrote: Woops. Seems I got the KS feedback thread locked.
Well, we probably were talking about stuff they ("they" here being Robert and Dave) don't want us to talk about. Or maybe not being enthusiastic enough.
I'm sure that's the case, but I'd argue we were being enthusiastic. "I want to see Heavy Gear become iconic again" seems a lot more useful and devoted than "Yee boys good job on everything."
Albertorius wrote:
EDIT: I've had fun writing in the hover tech thread... but it has made me realize, once again, how much the Nu NuCoal and TPS have crapped all over the setting.
"This Gear is useless, but we're rich so we might as well parade it around in front of those Earth-loving jerks who we totally are not and never were we promise."
"Oh, hey Arthur. Say could I interest you in a Gear design?"
Just imagine what fresh horrors NuBlitz NuCoal (NuNuNuCoal?) will bring....unless of course Peace River becomes the golden-haired child again.
2014/09/28 21:34:25
Subject: Re:[Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
Very interesting conversation everyone. Its been an interesting read.
I'd like to ask a simple question (I hope), and ask for some basic advice.
I bought, and still have, the Heavy Gear Tactical Combat Game (DP9-043). I played it maybe once or twice, was a little confused about the rules. Of course, that was YEARS ago. I also, at that time, picked up the larger size Hunter and a Black Mamba miniature. Of course, those aren't any use any more.
A year or two ago I got the Heavy Gear Blitz box (6 minis in the new style), but haven't played it.
I wanted to have two smallish forces (North and South) for some small games every now and then. So, now my questions:
Would you recommend using the Tactical Combat Game (using the hexes) over Blitz? Vice versa? Why? (and I don't mind a little crunch).
What would you recommend to add to the 6 minis from the Blitz game. I was considering getting a Fire Support Squad (North and South) or a GP squad (North and South) to give a little variety and have a couple models to choose from. Opinions?
I loved the HG universe, models, and played the heck out of the HG2 video game. I quickly got lost in the expansion books, etc., much as I lost interest in Battletech with their expanded timelines. I liked the humble beginnings better
"There is rational thought here. It's just swimming through a sea of stupid and is often concealed from view by the waves of irrational conclusions." - Railguns
2014/09/28 22:48:25
Subject: [Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
I can't speak for the tactical rules much as I skipped between 1st edition rpg and original blitz. Blitz is most frequently and best played with about 2-3 squads...if tactical is anything like the rpg tactical chapters then the sweet spot was typically one squad's worth of models. The upcoming rules aim for a higher model count but I haven't played enough to have any real idea.
If you've got the starter of 6 models, don't buy any GP squads. The general consensus is that those trooper models suck in game relatively speaking compared to their upgrades. I'd recommend getting a two recon models of your choice and two firesupport plus four elite gears for each side. That should give you enough variety in game both in capability and aesthetics plus will be a legal force in all three rules sets potentially. If you need help figuring out which gears fit in what classification, feel free to ask.
The pod has switched to one model blisters if you buy direct from them so you will get a ton of bits to convert each to almost any variant. If you buy the older two pack blisters from stores, you'll save some money but get less bits. If you buy the squad boxes, you get the least amount of bits to customise but save the most. Hope that helps.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Firebreak wrote: Woops. Seems I got the KS feedback thread locked.
That is what happens when you fluff nuts venture en masse outside your largely dead setting forum! Chaos!
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/28 22:53:24
2014/09/28 22:56:53
Subject: [Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
Man, I really need to work on my questioning. Sorry for the mess there, I keep forgetting my shorthand might not be descriptive enough for folks when it comes to choices.
One problem I might point out with forum polls is that the choices and/or opinions of those banned, driven off by over-moderation, or etc etc who might still have an interest in the setting goes unheard in that venue. And yes, I do understand that the opinions of those folks might not be wanted in the first place by the remaining fans or the company.
Just saying...
Miniature-wise, the Pod has already picked a new style - namely, the person chosen for Paxton and the North.
IceRaptor wrote: Focus the game on 3 man squads, so you can get easier buy-in - and make each model have enough character to carry that decision. Expand the background to allow non-Gear factions to be easier to pickup and play, because that broadens your base. And yes, expand into Gundam / Armored Core / Chromehounds / Battletech asethetics, with your own spin, to further broaden the base.
mrondeau wrote: The problem is not the aesthetic, it's the realism of the designs. It's not the number of legs that matter, it's how reasonable the model is. You can add aesthetics to the setting by adding new factions with their own doctrine and equipment, as long as they come from the same universe.
Would the two of you be willing to expound here on your ideas about creating a better and more interesting wargame?
_ _
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/29 05:11:54
"These reports were remarkably free of self-serving rhetoric. Most commanders admitted mistakes, scrutinized plans and doctrine, and suggested practical improvements." - Col. Joseph H. Alexander, USMC (Ret), from 'Utmost Savagery, The Three Days of Tarawa''
"I tell you there is something splendid in a man who will not always obey. Why, if we had done as the kings had told us five hundred years ago, we should have all been slaves. If we had done as the priests told us, we should have all been idiots. If we had done as the doctors told us, we should have all been dead.
We have been saved by disobedience." - Robert G. Ingersoll
"At this point, I'll be the first to admit it, I so do not give them the benefit of the doubt that, if they saved all the children and puppies from a burning orphanage, I would probably suspect them of having started the fire. " - mrondeau, on DP9
"No factual statement should be relied upon without further investigation on your part sufficient to satisfy you in your independent judgment that it is true." - Small Wars Journal
2014/09/29 07:59:56
Subject: Re:[Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
Firebreak wrote: Woops. Seems I got the KS feedback thread locked.
Well, we probably were talking about stuff they ("they" here being Robert and Dave) don't want us to talk about. Or maybe not being enthusiastic enough.
The DP9 beta boards are open to debate, discussion and ideas... As long as they're ideas the Pod (Dave & Robert at this point) agrees with.
Smilodon_UP wrote:One problem I might point out with forum polls is that the choices and/or opinions of those banned, driven off by over-moderation, or etc etc who might still have an interest in the setting goes unheard in that venue.
And yes, I do understand that the opinions of those folks might not be wanted in the first place by the remaining fans or the company.
Just saying...
Miniature-wise, the Pod has already picked a new style - namely, the person chosen for Paxton and the North.
See the above quote for contradicting the party line on the DP9 boards.
As for the "new style" minis revealed with the Scimitar and Argos, it's plain lame.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/29 08:01:34
Virtus in extremis
2014/09/29 09:21:50
Subject: Re:[Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
Cruentus wrote: I'd like to ask a simple question (I hope), and ask for some basic advice.
I bought, and still have, the Heavy Gear Tactical Combat Game (DP9-043). I played it maybe once or twice, was a little confused about the rules. Of course, that was YEARS ago. I also, at that time, picked up the larger size Hunter and a Black Mamba miniature. Of course, those aren't any use any more.
A year or two ago I got the Heavy Gear Blitz box (6 minis in the new style), but haven't played it.
I wanted to have two smallish forces (North and South) for some small games every now and then. So, now my questions:
Would you recommend using the Tactical Combat Game (using the hexes) over Blitz? Vice versa? Why? (and I don't mind a little crunch).
Personally I got back to the hex game, so... yes, I'd reccomend it. The tactical game has a lot less problems, IMHO, than the development of Blitz has ended compounding. The hexes are much more clear cut than scenery for things like LoS, cover, concealment and the like, so there's much less room for arguments there.
What would you recommend to add to the 6 minis from the Blitz game. I was considering getting a Fire Support Squad (North and South) or a GP squad (North and South) to give a little variety and have a couple models to choose from. Opinions?
I'd follow warboss' advice on that one, personally.
I loved the HG universe, models, and played the heck out of the HG2 video game. I quickly got lost in the expansion books, etc., much as I lost interest in Battletech with their expanded timelines. I liked the humble beginnings better
If you like the setting, get Life on Terra Nova. Still one of the best sci fi setting books ever written. You don't really need much (or any) more than that.
2014/09/29 15:06:57
Subject: Re:[Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
Nope. That was a japanese woman whose name eludes me right now.
Mariko Shimamoto.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So I had never actually looked at the beta until today, and the first thing that jumps out at me is oh my god they can't expect money for this. It looks like a highschool report on weather. Poor, poor layout and design.
The second thing I noticed, with all the Gears together in the vehicle recognition chart for the first time since many of them were introduced, was that, wow, we sure like wheel feet now, huh? Almost all the new models have wheels not in, but for feet.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/29 16:49:52
2014/09/29 16:54:03
Subject: [Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
And just in case some recent posts disappear over on the official forums...
Spoiler:
Does Paxton NEED to have every skirmisher double as a CMD gear? No, but someone obviously at the pod WANTS it. It just feels like there is a familiar imbalance in how those needs and wants are applied between factions. I think that the North does NEED a single CMD recon-specific gear just like the south gets. If Paxton somehow now becomes the king of command, let them keep their plethora of options as long as there is a semblance of parity amongst the other factions. YMMV.
The North was developed no differently than any other DP9 product. It was supervised by the chief playtester just like Blood Debt (although with alot less gusto and power creep as he doesn't play the North), distributed/played/commented on by the same group of playtesters, and ideas submitted periodically to Robert. There were ideas that I proposed that were shot down from the highest levels of DP9 during the process. It was then delayed for almost a half year and came back significantly different with no playtesting or even discussion of the changes done in the meantime (like the addition of a gearstrider and the theft of the only new strider that was absolutely NEEDED for the north who had ZERO fast light striders yet was a duplicate WANTED item for it's "new" klepto faction of paxton who already had the coyote AND were getting YET ANOTHER gear strider additionally).
As for interaction specifically with Dave, he was sequestered working on nublitz and wasn't involved in much of anything else unrelated publicly during 2013; I don't recall him commenting on the north ever before it was submitted. During most of that time, as a playtester in both groups, I wasn't allowed to mention nublitz to the north playtesters as they weren't allowed to know what they were working on was soon to be invalidated. That isn't the fault of the "person writing Lion's Wrath" who was kept in the dark as much as anyone else... is Smilodon persona non grata now that you're referring to him in vague general terms? This was not the product of some independent action by a rogue dev as you seem to be insinuating. He tried injecting faction flavor without resorting to overpowered cheese (see Blood Debt) or by placing models behind subfaction Berlin Walls (see Nublitz v1.0) but always with an eye towards how those changes would be relative to other factions.
As for mountain gears, isn't the north much more mountainous than other parts of TN? Doesn't it make sense for them to have mountain gears rather than, say, Nucoal? If there is such a thing as a problematic faction in HG, it is Paxton currently. I had no issues with them prior to seeing Blood Debt (heck, the cat was the only gearstrider I liked!) but the mistakes and mary sue purposeful power creep are being carried over as design choices. Somehow OCCASIONAL 1 pt increases of detect in the RPG turned into tons of gears getting recon levels of detect in BD which turned into 50% BETTER sensors than everyone else in nublitz. Somehow the "forgetting" to check the squad stat TV increases for the free bonus LD and EW turned into CMD gears for everyone Paxton! Somehow the crossfire rule which came from the era when everyone had a special faction rule (but strangely ONLY paxton kept their's while the others went away) which in blitz was ONLY useful for flanking/crossfire became a universal FREE bonus for PRDF in all situations at the start of the game. I really don't see how anyone can regard the North as the "problem" child with any semblance of fairness.
I'd say any blame for that lies with DP9 then and not an individual developer who followed the STANDARD writing procedure, included the chief playtester (who DID know about both projects) in every update and mailing list message, and reported regularly back to DP9 regarding proposed changes after taking over in mid-2013 when the project was already in development for over a year. DP9 then had the northern files for 5-8 months before releasing either them or the beta rules in which to incorporate the data from the approved and completed project into the new one. The problem is that the tradition of off the cuff spur of the moment this is a cool (soon to be abandoned by the next guy) design idea continues at DP9 and there is NOT as much forethought and planning put into it as you may assume. At one point, the official nublitz playtesting group was left out of the loop for over a month about a new edition of the nublitz rules that FUNDAMENTALLY changed the core damage mechanic while another "cell" was shown it. It was only after I saw a post here on the forums ALLUDING to a new edition that had been released and raised a stink about the "official" playtesters being completely left out in the cold for week that it was shared. A common feature I noted during my brief stint behind the scenes is that the left hand not only doesn't know what the right hand is doing but also that the right hand is actively making obscene gestures towards the left. There is way too much unnecessary drama and the only way to effect real change frequently is to ironically make necessary drama.
warboss wrote: Wait to you see the new Rally Mammoth design!
And just in case some recent posts disappear over on the official forums...
Spoiler:
Does Paxton NEED to have every skirmisher double as a CMD gear? No, but someone obviously at the pod WANTS it. It just feels like there is a familiar imbalance in how those needs and wants are applied between factions. I think that the North does NEED a single CMD recon-specific gear just like the south gets. If Paxton somehow now becomes the king of command, let them keep their plethora of options as long as there is a semblance of parity amongst the other factions. YMMV.
The North was developed no differently than any other DP9 product. It was supervised by the chief playtester just like Blood Debt (although with alot less gusto and power creep as he doesn't play the North), distributed/played/commented on by the same group of playtesters, and ideas submitted periodically to Robert. There were ideas that I proposed that were shot down from the highest levels of DP9 during the process. It was then delayed for almost a half year and came back significantly different with no playtesting or even discussion of the changes done in the meantime (like the addition of a gearstrider and the theft of the only new strider that was absolutely NEEDED for the north who had ZERO fast light striders yet was a duplicate WANTED item for it's "new" klepto faction of paxton who already had the coyote AND were getting YET ANOTHER gear strider additionally).
As for interaction specifically with Dave, he was sequestered working on nublitz and wasn't involved in much of anything else unrelated publicly during 2013; I don't recall him commenting on the north ever before it was submitted. During most of that time, as a playtester in both groups, I wasn't allowed to mention nublitz to the north playtesters as they weren't allowed to know what they were working on was soon to be invalidated. That isn't the fault of the "person writing Lion's Wrath" who was kept in the dark as much as anyone else... is Smilodon persona non grata now that you're referring to him in vague general terms? This was not the product of some independent action by a rogue dev as you seem to be insinuating. He tried injecting faction flavor without resorting to overpowered cheese (see Blood Debt) or by placing models behind subfaction Berlin Walls (see Nublitz v1.0) but always with an eye towards how those changes would be relative to other factions.
As for mountain gears, isn't the north much more mountainous than other parts of TN? Doesn't it make sense for them to have mountain gears rather than, say, Nucoal? If there is such a thing as a problematic faction in HG, it is Paxton currently. I had no issues with them prior to seeing Blood Debt (heck, the cat was the only gearstrider I liked!) but the mistakes and mary sue purposeful power creep are being carried over as design choices. Somehow OCCASIONAL 1 pt increases of detect in the RPG turned into tons of gears getting recon levels of detect in BD which turned into 50% BETTER sensors than everyone else in nublitz. Somehow the "forgetting" to check the squad stat TV increases for the free bonus LD and EW turned into CMD gears for everyone Paxton! Somehow the crossfire rule which came from the era when everyone had a special faction rule (but strangely ONLY paxton kept their's while the others went away) which in blitz was ONLY useful for flanking/crossfire became a universal FREE bonus for PRDF in all situations at the start of the game. I really don't see how anyone can regard the North as the "problem" child with any semblance of fairness.
I'd say any blame for that lies with DP9 then and not an individual developer who followed the STANDARD writing procedure, included the chief playtester (who DID know about both projects) in every update and mailing list message, and reported regularly back to DP9 regarding proposed changes after taking over in mid-2013 when the project was already in development for over a year. DP9 then had the northern files for 5-8 months before releasing either them or the beta rules in which to incorporate the data from the approved and completed project into the new one. The problem is that the tradition of off the cuff spur of the moment this is a cool (soon to be abandoned by the next guy) design idea continues at DP9 and there is NOT as much forethought and planning put into it as you may assume. At one point, the official nublitz playtesting group was left out of the loop for over a month about a new edition of the nublitz rules that FUNDAMENTALLY changed the core damage mechanic while another "cell" was shown it. It was only after I saw a post here on the forums ALLUDING to a new edition that had been released and raised a stink about the "official" playtesters being completely left out in the cold for week that it was shared. A common feature I noted during my brief stint behind the scenes is that the left hand not only doesn't know what the right hand is doing but also that the right hand is actively making obscene gestures towards the left. There is way too much unnecessary drama and the only way to effect real change frequently is to ironically make necessary drama.
Hah! Oh man, wonder how long before that thread dies. Maybe Smilodon is a killing word.
Ahh. The under-the-bus-throwing of Smilodon has started! It took longer than I was expecting. Soon, we will learn that he is the cause of all problems, ever. Truly, history's greatest monster.
2014/09/29 17:38:47
Subject: Re:[Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
Dave, 29 Sep 14 at 6:49 AM wrote:The North Field manual had a number of things that while imaginative unfortunately did not fit into the spec of where we are going with Blitz. But (and there`s always a but) this does not mean that these ideas and concepts can`t become part of the game in the future. There was a lot of hard work and play testing effort put into the North book and I don`t want anyone saying that it was a waste of time. If anything it has clearly helped define and inform the current North Force Rules and will continue to do so. Any expectation that every idea from the Lion`s Wrath document would be immediately transferred should be cooled immediately.
All of the "imaginative" elements are things that did get included in NuBlitz.
Like say the Scimitar, Leopard, Lynx, and Lion with all of their assorted variants plus the Thunderhammer Bastion hasty conversion?
It was inclusions to specifically cover Locked & Loaded legacy or things from the RPG sources to bring the North into line with other HGB! factions that almost entirely got omitted..... ,but most all of the silly made it into NuBlitz of course.
So again, WTF, over. Because here today it sure does seem like the entire project, and the player guides I wrote up for it before Robert's change-hammer hit, was absolutely a big waste of everyone's time.
Hell, I don't know that even a full dozen people have ever the seen the as-turned-in version of the Northern PDF.
mrondeau wrote: Soon, we will learn that he is the cause of all problems, ever. Truly, history's greatest monster.
lol, Yeah, just so long as it fits where "we" are going with blitz, right?
_
_
This message was edited 17 times. Last update was at 2015/01/31 05:41:20
"These reports were remarkably free of self-serving rhetoric. Most commanders admitted mistakes, scrutinized plans and doctrine, and suggested practical improvements." - Col. Joseph H. Alexander, USMC (Ret), from 'Utmost Savagery, The Three Days of Tarawa''
"I tell you there is something splendid in a man who will not always obey. Why, if we had done as the kings had told us five hundred years ago, we should have all been slaves. If we had done as the priests told us, we should have all been idiots. If we had done as the doctors told us, we should have all been dead.
We have been saved by disobedience." - Robert G. Ingersoll
"At this point, I'll be the first to admit it, I so do not give them the benefit of the doubt that, if they saved all the children and puppies from a burning orphanage, I would probably suspect them of having started the fire. " - mrondeau, on DP9
"No factual statement should be relied upon without further investigation on your part sufficient to satisfy you in your independent judgment that it is true." - Small Wars Journal
2014/09/29 18:38:15
Subject: Re:[Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
Dave, 29 Sep 14 at 6:49 AM wrote:The North Field manual had a number of things that while imaginative unfortunately did not fit into the spec of where we are going with Blitz. But (and there`s always a but) this does not mean that these ideas and concepts can`t become part of the game in the future. There was a lot of hard work and play testing effort put into the North book and I don`t want anyone saying that it was a waste of time. If anything it has clearly helped define and inform the current North Force Rules and will continue to do so. Any expectation that every idea from the Lion`s Wrath document would be immediately transferred should be cooled immediately.
All of the "imaginative" elements are things that did get included in NuBlitz. Like say the Scimitar, Leopard, Lynx, and Lion with all of their assorted variants plus the Thunderhammer Bastion hasty conversion?
It was inclusions to specifically cover Locked & Loaded legacy or things from the RPG sources to bring the North into line with other HGB! factions that got omitted.....
It appears that the criteria of what fits in with the "new" HG is what they are putting up for sale next and not what you've already bought for your Northern army. That seems to the common link between the "imaginative" stuff that got initially converted and what didn't.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/29 18:48:26
2014/09/29 19:58:50
Subject: Re:[Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
I don't normally like reposting from DP9Forum, since I don't post there and I don't like pulling peoples' words to a forum where they can't respond, but:
Dave wrote:Thanks for doing additional testing on this.
More people trying this would be appreciated.
That's... special. Very much so. In fact, my initial reaction upon seeing it was in the line of:
"If you want that kind of testing, maybe that's what you should have <expletive> asked for in the first place you <expletives> incompetent idiot!
In fact, if that's what you want (and it is what you should want), you should not only have asked for it from the <expletive> start, you should have organized it from the start, like you have been <expletive> told to at the very beginning!
It's your own <long chain of expletives, in two languages> fault if you are not getting it, not the testers, like you are implying now and will say explicitly when it <expletive> all blow up in your <expletive> incompetent face!
Instead, you went and decided to use a <expletive> testing procedure perfect to discourage this!
You want organized testing? <Expletive> organize it!
Instead, you set things up so that everyone is wasting their <expletive> time for months, doing nothing but thinking they are <expletive> doing something!
You did everything to avoid organization and accountability, and now you dare <expletive> complain that you are not getting systematic <expletive> feedback ?
I and others <expletive> told you that's what was going to happen before it started!
It's what <expletive> happened during all the other <expletive> wastes of time you called "playtests"!
It's about as surprising as the sun rising! It happened before, and people told you it would happen again! What more did you <expletive> want?"
PS:
I actually cut some of the <expletive>. It might not show on the Internet, but I'm actually really, really angry about this.
Also, I miss latex. It would turn that into two nice paragraphs with shortish lines, all of the same size.
EDIT: Fixed typos. Incoherent rage is no excuse for bad writing.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/29 20:10:51
2014/09/29 21:49:35
Subject: Re:[Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
warboss wrote: It appears that the criteria of what fits in with the "new" HG is what they are putting up for sale next and not what you've already bought for your Northern army. That seems to the common link between the "imaginative" stuff that got initially converted and what didn't.
Definitely has the ring of truth - even though the Pod, via Saleem, are the ones who asked for most all of what they chose not to use, as per usual to the detriment of existing players. Funny how Robert, Dave, and other TPTB types at the time of whichever product always conveniently forget that little caveat.
As I and others have said before, you just can't give Dream Pod 9 what they ask for, instead you have to somehow read their collective minds and predict the future to try and guess what it is they actually want.
You'd think the concept that folks probably wouldn't mind the likely necessary emphasis on new models to bring in needed $$$ or whatnot if that same process as practiced by DP9 didn't keep screwing over legacy collections would be easy to grasp. Yet here we are, once again and/or still talking about the same damn boneheaded things.
Dave, 29 Sep 14 at 6:49 AM wrote:Any expectation that every idea from the Lion`s Wrath document would be immediately transferred should be cooled immediately.
Like say the Scimitar, Leopard, Lynx, and Lion with all of their assorted variants plus the Thunderhammer Bastion hasty conversion?
Plus, I completely forgot to point out the virtually wholesale transfer of Blood Debt [Paxton, of course] into NuBlitz, which when taken into account makes Dave's comment more than a little silly.
I thought the one where he, Dave, the person writing/developing the rules, apparently had no clue about trait interactions after being something like two years into the process was an equally special example of his competence.
mrondeau wrote: I don't normally like reposting from DP9Forum, since I don't post there and I don't like pulling peoples' words to a forum where they can't respond,
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/29 21:54:28
"These reports were remarkably free of self-serving rhetoric. Most commanders admitted mistakes, scrutinized plans and doctrine, and suggested practical improvements." - Col. Joseph H. Alexander, USMC (Ret), from 'Utmost Savagery, The Three Days of Tarawa''
"I tell you there is something splendid in a man who will not always obey. Why, if we had done as the kings had told us five hundred years ago, we should have all been slaves. If we had done as the priests told us, we should have all been idiots. If we had done as the doctors told us, we should have all been dead.
We have been saved by disobedience." - Robert G. Ingersoll
"At this point, I'll be the first to admit it, I so do not give them the benefit of the doubt that, if they saved all the children and puppies from a burning orphanage, I would probably suspect them of having started the fire. " - mrondeau, on DP9
"No factual statement should be relied upon without further investigation on your part sufficient to satisfy you in your independent judgment that it is true." - Small Wars Journal
2014/09/29 22:35:25
Subject: Re:[Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
You'd think the concept that folks probably wouldn't mind the likely necessary emphasis on new models to bring in needed $$$ or whatnot if that same process as practiced by DP9 didn't keep screwing over legacy collections would be easy to grasp. Yet here we are, once again and/or still talking about the same damn boneheaded things.
It really boggles the mind.
That is the key. I don't mind extra emphasis on new upcoming models as they generate income that is apparently badly needed. What I do mind is doing that to the exclusion of supporting the existing and continuing playerbase. This extends past just the issue of backward compatibility but also into design. Has there been a completely new strider introduced since they went hog wild with gearstriders? Only a single one and it went to the faction with the MOST gearstriders who is now tied for the most striders as well with this model mugging.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Smilodon_UP wrote: Plus, I completely forgot to point out the virtually wholesale transfer of Blood Debt [Paxton, of course] into NuBlitz, which when taken into account makes Dave's comment more than a little silly.
Clearly that was a priority with whoever was whispering in Dave's ear for the cheese to be transferred over even more aged to the initial alpha army list releases. I didn't really go over every model for Paxton as I was plenty disgusted just from looking at the Warrior and Warrior IV profiles but did they have any models "homogenized" or missed in the alpha release? I'll have to peek and see if paxton had any missing models on the thread for that. I'd expect less than the polar forces simply because they had less models and variants but it should be commensurate with their total relative size if there isn't any special attention to them being paid.
edit: They do have a fair amount of variants missing but I didn't see any complete models missing from skimming the list like the polar forces had.
Cruentus wrote: Very interesting conversation everyone. Its been an interesting read.
I'd like to ask a simple question (I hope), and ask for some basic advice.
I bought, and still have, the Heavy Gear Tactical Combat Game (DP9-043). I played it maybe once or twice, was a little confused about the rules. Of course, that was YEARS ago. I also, at that time, picked up the larger size Hunter and a Black Mamba miniature. Of course, those aren't any use any more.
A year or two ago I got the Heavy Gear Blitz box (6 minis in the new style), but haven't played it.
I wanted to have two smallish forces (North and South) for some small games every now and then. So, now my questions:
Would you recommend using the Tactical Combat Game (using the hexes) over Blitz? Vice versa? Why? (and I don't mind a little crunch).
What would you recommend to add to the 6 minis from the Blitz game. I was considering getting a Fire Support Squad (North and South) or a GP squad (North and South) to give a little variety and have a couple models to choose from. Opinions?
I loved the HG universe, models, and played the heck out of the HG2 video game. I quickly got lost in the expansion books, etc., much as I lost interest in Battletech with their expanded timelines. I liked the humble beginnings better
Thanks in advance.
If you don't mind crunch, Tactical fits for small squadrons and cadres.
If you want speed, original Blitz can work.
Other than that, you can also look at warboss' Flash subset in his blog or the Gear-finity ruleset in my own blog.
Wow... the last week just disappeared from the thread and Dave's been locking multiple threads as well. I guess my prediction of him only pruning the disagreement out of the forum was entirely correct instead of addressing the underlying issues.
2014/09/30 03:11:52
Subject: [Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
Something sure set him off tonight. Have you seen his other lock messages? I guess convention goers need to buy him more drinks. And the one on Kris_Din's art poll "Reminded of an episode...", indeed. I'm reminded of the episode of Kickstarter where another company embarrassed Heavy Gear with ridiculous, unrealistic expectations about how fans would behave.
However, I, for one, am glad that market research on groceries is directly applicable to the art in traditional games.
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2014/09/30 03:36:22
Subject: [Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
It is likely the response to my premonition about the thread being pruned and/or locked in response to negative feedback that called him a dumb jerk (that is the family friendly way of putting it) if he did that probably didn't help. In any case, the Palladiumification of the forum begins...
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2014/09/30 04:31:38
Subject: Re:[Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
Firebreak wrote: So I had never actually looked at the beta until today, [..] The second thing I noticed, with all the Gears together in the vehicle recognition chart for the first time since many of them were introduced, was that, wow, we sure like wheel feet now, huh? Almost all the new models have wheels not in, but for feet.
A couple of us commented about that during testing for FiF when we got the sneak peek that turned into the typo hunt, as the Street Viper and Salamander were pretty comical when compared to the other non-Drake designs being introduced.
And then of course that "wheel-feet" style got carried over for the Greyhound and the Leopard along with the Lynx, I guess just so each faction could have a new "Rally" model to use with the Badlands Rally game the Pod has consistently failed to promote since it's Gencon '13 release. Trying to keep up with Robert's nigh daily change of ideas for implementing the Mammoth & ThunderhammerSMS during a couple weeks of North testing also got more than a bit old.
Just offhand there are at least [10] models that have over-sized wheels if not wheels for feet as things stand.
warboss wrote: I didn't really go over every model for Paxton as I was plenty disgusted just from looking at the Warrior and Warrior IV profiles but did they have any models "homogenized" or missed in the alpha release? I'll have to peek and see if paxton had any missing models on the thread for that. I'd expect less than the polar forces simply because they had less models and variants but it should be commensurate with their total relative size if there isn't any special attention to them being paid.
Yeah, most variants for pretty much all of the models seem to have made it into the Beta excepting stuff like the "Assault" conversions although the naming got done every bit as incoherently as for the other factions.
Oddly enough, the rather common W4 Shamshir (MBZK) went away, as did the Gladiator equivalent. But then there is still that crapton of Shinobi & Skirmisher variants. It took real planning to leave out the basic Coyote though. And that field gun on the Red Bull Xyston just keeps getting bigger.
Firebreak wrote: Hah! Oh man, wonder how long before that thread dies. Maybe Smilodon is a killing word.
Firebreak wrote: Something sure set him off tonight. Have you seen his other lock messages? I guess convention goers need to buy him more drinks.
It would seem so. Dave is such a dink - I notice he even deleted his own post in that one thread that contradicted his comments elsewhere.
Earlier today I had already used "save page as" for those pages, but the first one seems to have corrupted into a non-usable MS-DOS format for some reason.
In the spirit of his actions though I kindly shared a post on G+ from the Heavy Gear group, plus an attached thought about bothering to comment on the Pod forums, to a couple other game communities with about ~22K combined members. Not too overboard I trust, in keeping to the spirit of turnabout.
Dave, 30 Sep 2014 at 7:02 PM wrote:In our case we have twenty years of amazing art to fill all tastes and a universe that is very diverse and nuanced.
Wow, he and el presidente sure do like to bandy that "20 Years" tag about of late whether or not it reflects actuality of success, let alone work they can legitimately take credit for, don't they?
In regards to the Northern project, I came across the following email in an archived folder this evening:
Spoiler:
On Thu, 11/14/13, Saleem wrote:
Subject: Re: UMFA To: Alexander Date: Thursday, November 14, 2013 2:38 AM
About Mark, I agree that he seems to be a bit burnt out at the moment. It's getting obvious that he isnt even reading the combat group entries properly anymore. It's been a long hard road and we are all getting hot under the collar.
I think what your doing is fine as you can still get the builds you need simply by some creative swaps.
The training packages are ok but I do agree with Justin that the specifics might need to be fine tuned. I dont believe they were ever balanced in the first place but rather just tossed in at the last minute like a lot of things from before. The stuff in TnG is not sacrosanct by a long shot - we will modify and tweak them as needed.
Alex, Thank You. You have single handedly saved this book. Even if nobody else in the group appreciates what you've done Robert, Jason and myself do, and very much so.
Btw what do you think about limited swaps for stock Jaguar, Hunter and Grizzly for stock stock faction models in the NG? I only really seeing this applying to WFPA and UMF stuff. If we do go down this path no SD swaps at all, those things are too unbalancing.
Quite a change from there to Saleem's "I wish you the best of luck in your future, take this as a lesson on how NOT to interact with the people your doing work for.", Robert's "This is your first an last warning, you did a terrible job on the Northern Army List and only the hard work of myself and Saleem saved it, if I see one more comment about this in the DP9 Forum or Facebook page you will be banned forever. ", and Dave's "The North Field manual had a number of things that while imaginative unfortunately did not fit into the spec of where we are going with Blitz."
_ _
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"These reports were remarkably free of self-serving rhetoric. Most commanders admitted mistakes, scrutinized plans and doctrine, and suggested practical improvements." - Col. Joseph H. Alexander, USMC (Ret), from 'Utmost Savagery, The Three Days of Tarawa''
"I tell you there is something splendid in a man who will not always obey. Why, if we had done as the kings had told us five hundred years ago, we should have all been slaves. If we had done as the priests told us, we should have all been idiots. If we had done as the doctors told us, we should have all been dead.
We have been saved by disobedience." - Robert G. Ingersoll
"At this point, I'll be the first to admit it, I so do not give them the benefit of the doubt that, if they saved all the children and puppies from a burning orphanage, I would probably suspect them of having started the fire. " - mrondeau, on DP9
"No factual statement should be relied upon without further investigation on your part sufficient to satisfy you in your independent judgment that it is true." - Small Wars Journal
2014/09/30 05:13:34
Subject: Re:[Heavy Gear] Why did you stop or never start playing it?
In the spirit of his actions though I kindly shared a post on G+ from the Heavy Gear group, plus an attached thought about bothering to comment on the Pod forums, to a couple other game communities with about ~22K combined members. Not too overboard I trust.
Well... he did specifically ask to share the HG news and this is news. In any case, the pruning of half of my last few weeks worth of posts doesn't really change anything for me. I said that I'd support the KS at the pdf level if it was affordable and at a savings ($10 max) if my armies didn't get gutted and my army was returned to me. I obviously have no guarantee that future changes won't gut them yet again during the next year but we'll have to see as the months progress.
edit: LOL, he even locked the gencon roll call thread where I asked for an update on the fan initiative to play a game of HG at the con that he had nothing to do with. I'm also a wee bit disappointed that with his comment about airing of grievances that there was no mention of any feats of strength being performed.
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Legio Suturvora 2000 points (painted)
Daemonhunters 1000 points (painted)
Flesh Tearers 2000+ points (painted) - Balt GT '02 52nd; Balt GT '05 16th
Kabal of the Tortured Soul 2000+ points (painted) - Balt GT '08 85th; Mechanicon '09 12th
Greenwing 1000 points (painted) - Adepticon Team Tourny 2013
(Give us more fluff and we'll go back to our pens and no one has to get hurt!)
