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Lictors ftw. How can you not go wrong with the likes of Deathleaper?
Also this: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/570161.page

Why is the Alpha Legion not in this list?
Probably because they do not want to draw attention to themselves...
BrotherHaraldus must have been replaced by an Alpha Legion operative!
Or maybe that is what they want us to think...

Of course we all know that the Alpha Legion is just a ridiculous myth and that there exists no such thing as a '20th legion'.
Everyone who believes otherwise should report to his local Commissar.
If he hasn't been replaced by an Alpha Legion operative that is...

Is this in the context of fluff, or gameplay and units?

If fluff, then I'd say definitely the Alpha Legion, followed by the Raven Guard. The Alpha Legion make Deception into an art form. Raven Guard are masters of Stealth.

Gameplay wise, I have no idea.

Why need fancy tech or perfect genetics when you have the uplifting primer and a handful of mud?

Pst.

Its Creed, can you hide an Imperator titan under the table where the evil enemy leader is making his plans? I though so.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Is this in the context of fluff, or gameplay and units?

If fluff, then I'd say definitely the Alpha Legion, followed by the Raven Guard. The Alpha Legion make Deception into an art form. Raven Guard are masters of Stealth.

Gameplay wise, I have no idea.

Well, it is the background forum...

Oh, sorry, I misread. I thought it was all-around effectiveness. In terms of sneakiness, I'll say Lictors. They're purpose-made for it.

LoL, Stormtroopers/Marbo being a top contender....

Seriously though.

Imperial Assassins/Changelings...putting them in this listing is unfair if you are going to compare them to only units of other armies. They win, hands down...if you are going to compare these type of elite special characters...compare apples to apples and put Ilic in for Eldar and other notable characters.

Including them it goes with Changelings -> Assassins -> Pathfinders

It being a good poll and not including them....

Pathfinderfs -> Tau Stealth -> Lictors

Space Wolve's scout's, coming from fenris they are already trained in extreme element's, add in there helix gene making them wolf like! Plus as already stated, there Wolf Guard, but instead chose to forgo the pack. After reading the fluff, it seem's they can simply smell there enemy's from miles away, seem's pretty good for scouting!

In my opinion I can't see any Space Marine (except maybe scouts) as stealthy. Imagine a two thousand pound armor and all space marine wearing metal clanking around trying to be sneaky with glowing eye slits and humming energy backpack. Also if their gun brushes on their armor it would produce a sound (though they are space marines, doubt they would make a mistake like that)

You clearly don't know much about the Raven Guard and Alpha Legion then.

No I don't. I don't much about Raven Guard. Only thing I know about Alpha Legion is that they pretend to be other chapters. If you can give me a brief description I would appreciate it.

<< Need I say more? I wouldn't get close to that patch of mud if I were you! =D

The Alpha Legion are masters of subterfuge and infiltration.



The Raven Guard are masters of stealth and lightning strikes, using intelligence to strike quickly without warning at the enemy's weak spots, then withdrawing before the enemy can retaliate.



Simply put, the Alpha Legion are like Spies, infiltrating the enemy, formenting unrest and disunity to distract the enemy while they carry out their complicated and convoluted plans. They make frequent use of Human Operatives, such as 40K era Cultists, and members of the Imperial Army in 30K.

Whereas the Raven Guard are like guerilla and Special Forces, striking fast and hard without warning and withdrawing quickly when their objectives are achieved.



If ANY Space Marines can be considered masters of Stealth, then it is the Raven Guard and Alpha Legion.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Its Creed, can you hide an Imperator titan under the table where the evil enemy leader is making his plans? I though so.

This. Nobody can even come close to the infiltration skills of CREEEEEEEEEEEEEED!!!!!!!!!!!!

Second place, but just barely, goes to Marbo for the ability to sneak up behind you and toss a demo charge even if you lock yourself in a solid cube with no windows or doors.

Edithae, thank you for the explanation. Going by what you posted, I would say that the Alpha Legion would be masters of infiltration but not necessarily stealth. They simply ask their presence with another rather than hiding their presence.

For the Raven Guard, from your post, I have no doubt that they are the best at stealth at least among the Space Marines. However, I'm still a little confused as how. The primarch I accept completely, but for the chapter I would like just a little more explanation. There's the shotgun and improved power armor, but then what happens if they have to sneak around say a space station? Power armor against metal floor would still make a lot of sound unless they moved very very slowly.

Also, to hide you would at times have to scrunch yourself smaller to hide behind low clearings and such. I can see power armor perhaps as flexible enough to this but I doubt you can lay probe or fetal in a tactical dreadnought armor. Maybe they teleport in and out but doesn't that make a loud crack, unless improved stealth technology is incorporated into terminator armor as well?

Lastly isn't Shrike depicted as using a jump pack? Wouldn't the use of a jump pack roaring in the sky alert everyone? Would he be wearing his jump pack sneaking around until the rough time to ambush his prey and then come swooping for the kill? If that's the case wouldn't carrying a jump pack be more difficult for him?

Ruleswise: Creed (who else can infiltrate a baneblade company?) or Marbo.

Fluffwise: Probably the Changeling, or Alpha Legion.

SkyHawk wrote:

For the Raven Guard, from your post, I have no doubt that they are the best at stealth at least among the Space Marines. However, I'm still a little confused as how. The primarch I accept completely, but for the chapter I would like just a little more explanation. There's the shotgun and improved power armor, but then what happens if they have to sneak around say a space station? Power armor against metal floor would still make a lot of sound unless they moved very very slowly.

They're well trained and make use of technology to maintain stealth.

Lexicanum wrote:Raven Guard's Power Armour utilises enhanced cooling systems that which helps to blend in better with the background. By this means Raven Guard's warriors are hard to be detected by thermal or infrared devices.[11a]

All I can recommend is that you read some books and learn about the fluff. Theres only so much I can recall off the top of my head and only so much I can get from the wikis.

Also, to hide you would at times have to scrunch yourself smaller to hide behind low clearings and such. I can see power armor perhaps as flexible enough to this but I doubt you can lay probe or fetal in a tactical dreadnought armor. Maybe they teleport in and out but doesn't that make a loud crack, unless improved stealth technology is incorporated into terminator armor as well?

The Raven Guard rarely use Terminator's and other heavy armour (tanks etc).

Besides, the Raven Guard's use of stealth typically takes place before the battle. They will infiltrate into forward positions, sending out Scout units to gather intelligence, moving units forward to positions from which they can strike quickly at the enemy and then when the time comes they reveal themselves, striking hard and fast without warning.

When you're blowing your enemy to bits, and eviscertating them with your lightning claw I think you're past the point of needing to be stealthy.

Lastly isn't Shrike depicted as using a jump pack? Wouldn't the use of a jump pack roaring in the sky alert everyone? Would he be wearing his jump pack sneaking around until the rough time to ambush his prey and then come swooping for the kill? If that's the case wouldn't carrying a jump pack be more difficult for him?

In Hunt for Voldorious, they lay in wait for an armoured column before pouncing. I imagine that when they need to move silently, they would simply not use their jump packs, and move on foot, or try to disguise their movements somehow (e.g. call in an artillery bombardment so the noise will obscure their jump pack movements). And when there are no enemies close enough to hear anyway, then they can move quickly with impunity.

The battlefield of a Warhammer 40K game represents the height of a battle. Two opposing armies arranged across a battlefield, hammering at each other. Its not an accurate representation of when the Raven Guard are at their best. Their expertise is mainly in stealth operations, infiltration, hit & run guerilla ops against supply lines and poorly defended weak spots. A 40K game represents the moment when the Raven Guard have more or less abandoned the pretence of Stealth to make an all out attack on the enemy.

Think of something like Kill Team - small, elite squads of Scouts and Assault Marines behind enemy lines - infiltrating into enemy territory, gathering intelligence, attacking supply lines, assassinating elements of the Command Chain, ambushing armoured columns and troop movements, and other objectives. That is when the Raven Guard are in their prime.

Lexicanum wrote:The Raven Guard are known for hitting weak points in enemy defences hard and they perform lightning strike upon locations of tactical importance to cripple their enemy. The Raven Guard disdain the notion of recklessly charging into enemy ranks. This differentiates their tactics from those of the Blood Angels. The Raven Guard rely heavily on their Scouts for pinpointing enemy positions and to scout for good drop sites. Because of their hit and run tactics they also make extensive use of Assault Squads. The Tactical Squads of the Raven Guard are often deployed via Thunderhawks or Drop Pods. The favorite weapons of the Raven Guard Commanders are the Lightning Claws and it is a common sight that their command squads also come equiped with these weapons in addition to their Jump Packs.

Raven Guard Captains are fiercely independent, and it's incredibly rare for the chapter to fight as a whole. Individual companies are completely autonomous and are quick to lend their aid to imperial commanders across the galaxy, with or without the sanction of their Chapter Master. Such behaviour has led to some to question the Raven Guard's soundness, but most recognise that such fluidity of command proves the presence of formidable discipline, not its absence.[4a]

Due to their specialised combat style, the Raven Guard makes less use of heavier vehicles and tanks (such as the Land Raider and Predator) than most chapters.[3]

The Changeling, by far. He/She/It can be anything, anywhere. You only know it was there when hell has literally broken loose.

Marbo on number 1.
2. Alpha Legion.
3. Changeling - he can't infiltrate himself into realspace, so yeah

Considering Changeling could take the form of anything else on that list I'd say he takes this one by a mile.

MarsNZ wrote:
Considering Changeling could take the form of anything else on that list I'd say he takes this one by a mile.

The Changeling can take the form of Creed. It can not take the TACTICAL GENIUS of Creed.

Creed hid a whole Imperator, nice. Not familiar with this fluff, who did he hide it from?

Because, CALGAR!!

Sorry, my favorite phrase to say because of how it reminds me of how mentally unstable the fanboi fluff for Space Marines is....which is related to....

Calgar hid his WHOLE Chapter of marines in a set of ruins that two Craftworlds of Eldar couldn't detect or see...and he knows how to ambush Warp Spiders. Because? CALGAR!!

Back on topic, I don't think there is any way to say that Raven Guard, fluff writing or not, can come to the level of at least 4-5 others on the list(Pathfinders, Deathmarks, Assassins, Changlings, probably not Mandrakes either).

SkyHawk wrote:
No I don't. I don't much about Raven Guard. Only thing I know about Alpha Legion is that they pretend to be other chapters. If you can give me a brief description I would appreciate it.

The guy on the fancy chair? Not the Emperor. Actually Alpharius.

That grubby-faced kid in the Hive that sells the daily newspaper? Alpharius.

Abaddon the Despoiler? Alpharius. Possibly Omegon.

That hot little number that's in the Officer's Club on Cadia? Alpharius.

The Ecclesiarch? Alpharius.

Sister Whats-her-face from the Order of the Ebon Chalice? Alpharius.

That small feline over there? Alpharius.

The entire Blood Ravens Chapter, loyalist and traitor both? Alpharius. All of them. At the same time.

Alpharius? Marbo.

Marbo? Omegon.

Omegon? An Imperator Titan that was infiltrated by Creed into Omegon's clothes.

It's a vicious cycle.

Creed? Alpharius playing a Name-Day trick on his brother, Omegon.

What about striking scorpions?

Marbo.

I always explain his 'He's behind you!' rule as "Marbo was already there disguised as a rock/tree/rubble, we just decided to fight where he was waiting."