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 paulson games wrote:

I agree that having too many jacks would take the game too far in the wrong direction. However they are an integral part of the game but for a significant portion of time events were being dominated by lists that didn't have a single jack or if they had one it was primarily so they could bounce spells. The balance favored infantry so badly that with second ed they had to make the first jack free simply so people would include them in their forces.

There were a lot of issues in Mk1 that made jacks suffer. I put it against a young company “learning” the game. To be fair, it was a lot more than making one jack “free” that brought jacks up. They were made cheaper (they were too expensive), they were made more accurate (MAT and RAT buffs across the were increased from what they were), hurtier (most saw an increase in P+S values) power attacks were fixed (previously you suffered a MAT penalty when making them) as well as the free WJ points.
Then again, the problems with jacks weren’t the only issues that Mk1 suffered from.

 paulson games wrote:

Hordes I think has a superior system with how they make the beasts a lynchpin of the game, jacks don't have quite the same requirements and IMO their mechanics feel more like a stapled on item rather than being a centerpiece of the army.

In a way, I agree. In a way I don’t. I fully agree with you that Hordes warpacks are more integrated into the game, with the fury mechanic. But I don’t agree that it is necessarily a good thing. I have a dog in both fights, as it were. On the Warmachine side, I play mainly Khador, but have a small Retribution starter that I’ll expand soon, thanks to the new floaty elven chick, and I play Circle on the Hordes side of it. Now when I play Circle, whilst I love the fury mechanic, and how warlocks and warbeasts “feed” off of each other to a degree warcasters and warjacks don’t, I also find myself envying the “independence” of the warcaster/warjack relationship. They’re different. They’re not meant to be the same. It boils down to the fact that before I even think about anything else in my Circle army, I’ve spent 20-25points on warbeasts. They cost more than warjacks, and I need to field more. It doesn’t leave me a lot of breathing space for solos, units and support pieces. The same cannot be said for my Khador force. I slap down Irusk, or Butcher, put down a jack or two, and then I realise I have 40 odd points to spend on filling out my army. I simply have a lot more “design freedom” when making a khador army than I do with a circle army. And I am quite envious of that when I run my beasts! Beyond that, whilst warbeasts are more vital in how they are a lynchpin, once they start dying, my whole army suffers to a degree my Khador faction can simply shrug off. I lose a Juggernaut, and I’ve lost a heavy hitter. I lose a warpwolf, and I lose a heavy hitter/wound sink/ animus/fury generator. Being a “lynchpin” hurts a lot more when push comes to shove.

 paulson games wrote:
. The art and book covers always showcases the jacks and beasts as the crown jewel of the forces, but in game play it's the caster that defines everything and the jacks take back stage. (boosting creates huge swings in the bell curve and I also really disliked the disparity level between feats)

Do they? I usually see a few scrapping it out, amongst hordes of infantry, with the casters at centre stage. With respect, I don’t see the artwork as defining warjacks as “the one thing that this game should revolve around”.

 Vulcan wrote:
A lot of people misunderstand the nature of roleplaying games - indeed, ALL games.
Games are, by their very nature, a CO-OPERATIVE entertainment. So doing things that make it not-fun for other people in the group is nothing more than being a jerk..

I think alot of folks would disagree with you but I completely agree. In nearly all circumstances I view a game as a chance to have fun with other people. Losing of course can sometimes be a downer, but if overall we're not both having fun, then what's the point?

Now some folks only have fun when they win and will raise a stink if they don't. I simply don't play with those kind of people.

 Portugal Jones wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

e.g. The Ranger later meets a Sorcer who promises to magically heal her face in exchange for going on a quest and retrieving a magical relic?
And the Witch Doctor player triggers more traps than usual or gets cursed in some way.

That'd require a lot more faith in the DM at knowing his ass from his elbow than I would've had at that point - remember, he'd just allowed the 'native american voodoo witchdoctor' to cut out another PC's eye, while the poster was making sure to act like as big of a dick as possible to ensure his character did not accidentally touch the other character and cure the blindness until right before her eye was carved out. 'Whacky cultural misunderstanding' would be be the guy slowly realizing that with his new powers, he could heal injuries or perform small miracles without needing ceremonial incense, fetishes, and drawings done in chicken blood - cutting out someone's eye to cure blindness is something a jerk makes up on the spot for his own amusement as he screws up someone else's character.

Yup, and many lulz were had.

YEsterday. I said I was Novacharging the riptide and doing its boost. I said Nova charging it, like most people. When I go to do the boost, he contests and looks at the book, Little did I know the gun power was also called nova charging. He said I said that, I did, but I also said boost. I got really mad as did he. IT wasnt a good game for all. He slow played, questioned everything and all that, didnt know the rules, got mad and all that. Neither of us looked good. Then I got mad at the TO when the TO rolled to see who was right.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
YEsterday. I said I was Novacharging the riptide and doing its boost. I said Nova charging it, like most people. When I go to do the boost, he contests and looks at the book, Little did I know the gun power was also called nova charging. He said I said that, I did, but I also said boost. I got really mad as did he. IT wasnt a good game for all. He slow played, questioned everything and all that, didnt know the rules, got mad and all that. Neither of us looked good. Then I got mad at the TO when the TO rolled to see who was right.

okay, so done trolling through the thread, this one is a serious response. I hate the idea of having a situation like that rolled for. People need to not be fething awful and a TO needs to be able to make a decsion and have the balls to be "the bad guy" when it comes to actually having some form of integrity.

I never liked a third party rolling for the result, but sometimes it is the only way when the TO is the friend of both guys.
This guy just slow played and it SUCKED so much.

Imnewherewheresthebathroom wrote:
I roasted 4 helldrakes as they came on the board a few weeks ago. The story goes; I was told to bring at triptide list all with HBC, interceptor, and skyfire, for the succinct purpose of griefing a particular player. Now I own the 3 riptide models only for highly competitive use. I won't bring them unless requested because, well duh.
The story goes, my opponent was already hot because his drakes didn't come in on turn two. so thinking he had my troops all but crispy when they all came in on three, he was rudely surprised by the rending rule on the HBC. It didn't help that we had onlookers, but when only one of the four survived with a single remaining hp he started muttering about "cheesy bullshite tau this spam that" as he started grabbing his models off the table. Nobody said a word to him as he left. But we think he knew someone had conspired against him. I was merely the sharpest tool in the shed for this particular job.

We haven't seen him since.

So the fact that 3 riptides going nova will only hit for 1 penetrating hit, doesn't matter? you just got insanely lucky?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kavik_Whitescar wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
YEsterday. I said I was Novacharging the riptide and doing its boost. I said Nova charging it, like most people. When I go to do the boost, he contests and looks at the book, Little did I know the gun power was also called nova charging. He said I said that, I did, but I also said boost. I got really mad as did he. IT wasnt a good game for all. He slow played, questioned everything and all that, didnt know the rules, got mad and all that. Neither of us looked good. Then I got mad at the TO when the TO rolled to see who was right.

okay, so done trolling through the thread, this one is a serious response. I hate the idea of having a situation like that rolled for. People need to not be fething awful and a TO needs to be able to make a decsion and have the balls to be "the bad guy" when it comes to actually having some form of integrity.

In a situation where it could've gone either way, like Sub-op is saying, I would roll a dice for it. It's much quicker just to say "1,2,3 your way, 4,5,6 his way." and nobody can complain that you were biased.

I wouldnt have minded that, if the guy wasnt slw playing the entire thing, causing me to loose my patience

Can imagine that someone playing really slow in a tournament setting would be pretty annoying. But I reckon everyone has their own pace really.

When it is obviously deliberate(HE had two units to move"

Yeah, that would get really annoying very quickly.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Portugal Jones wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

e.g. The Ranger later meets a Sorcer who promises to magically heal her face in exchange for going on a quest and retrieving a magical relic?
And the Witch Doctor player triggers more traps than usual or gets cursed in some way.

That'd require a lot more faith in the DM at knowing his ass from his elbow than I would've had at that point - remember, he'd just allowed the 'native american voodoo witchdoctor' to cut out another PC's eye, while the poster was making sure to act like as big of a dick as possible to ensure his character did not accidentally touch the other character and cure the blindness until right before her eye was carved out. 'Whacky cultural misunderstanding' would be be the guy slowly realizing that with his new powers, he could heal injuries or perform small miracles without needing ceremonial incense, fetishes, and drawings done in chicken blood - cutting out someone's eye to cure blindness is something a jerk makes up on the spot for his own amusement as he screws up someone else's character.

Ah. Well I'm not an RPG player myself (though I've been listening/watching the WOTC podcasts and Live Pax games), I just wondered if the situation could be salvaged within the Storyline, in character.

I learned the hard way that if it's an out-of-character problem, it can't be solved with in-character measures. You're just rewarding the jerk with attention

It wasn't my game, but I did see someone completely smash their own Vendetta after a tournament game. It was ridiculous. If you can't lose a game and still have a good time, then you don't need to be playing.

In response to all the people getting butthurt over the RPG story, that would be a normal action in my group. You are all giving him a hard time over something his imaginary character did in a fantasy game.

 puma713 wrote:
It wasn't my game, but I did see someone completely smash their own Vendetta after a tournament game. It was ridiculous. If you can't lose a game and still have a good time, then you don't need to be playing.

A Vendetta... What an ass

Playing apocalypse, one kid decided to tip the table when his force got nuked turn one, then redshirt forced us to use them as reinforcements, then they got shredded turn two. The kid pretty much lost it, started screaming about how OPed battle cannons are.

Next thing you know, he's upended the table, 30K points worth of models on the floor, The redshirt kicked him out, and when the ankle-biters mom came up wanting an explanation, he presented her with the bill for repairs.

Something like a grand as well (we had forgeworld models).

And thats why I don't play apocalypse anymore with games workshop. Because they keep kids around who flip out at almost anything.

 Doctadeth wrote:
Playing apocalypse, one kid decided to tip the table when his force got nuked turn one, then redshirt forced us to use them as reinforcements, then they got shredded turn two. The kid pretty much lost it, started screaming about how OPed battle cannons are.

Next thing you know, he's upended the table, 30K points worth of models on the floor, The redshirt kicked him out, and when the ankle-biters mom came up wanting an explanation, he presented her with the bill for repairs.

Something like a grand as well (we had forgeworld models).

And thats why I don't play apocalypse anymore with games workshop. Because they keep kids around who flip out at almost anything.

Jesus, if only all that had been on video

Hope she paid for EVERYTHING, if not am sure you could sue

BlackSanguinor wrote:
In response to all the people getting butthurt over the RPG story, that would be a normal action in my group. You are all giving him a hard time over something his imaginary character did in a fantasy game.

I guess we're just not hardcore enough to appreciate role playing as the sociopath playground it was apparently intended to be.

Because if you're not being a big enough of an donkey-cave in game to end friendships out of game, you're playing it wrong!

I admit I have a temper. The thing is, I can keep it in check until people start teasing me for it. If I'm getting mad and clearly upset the game is going drastically poorly for me, people giving me unasked for advice is intolerable and I will snap at you. It's one thing at the end of a game when you discuss it with the guy you played with; it's something else entirely when people not part of the game start telling you what you did wrong.

Anyone who says "You mad, bro?", I will fething punch you in the fething face because if you're going to be a troll, I'm going to be a bully. Taunting someone especially when they are known for losing their cool but make sure to go out of their way after the fact to apologize to the other guy is just terrible behavior and it's totally acceptable in American culture.

I would much rather play with someone who gets upset and cares about the game he's playing enough to show too much emotion, than play with someone who's a prick troll. That's just me, though.

I would recommend you just stay home, SRSFACE. You seem to have anger management problems.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BlackSanguinor wrote:
In response to all the people getting butthurt over the RPG story, that would be a normal action in my group. You are all giving him a hard time over something his imaginary character did in a fantasy game.

It's not so much butthurt as it is people pointing out that the behavior is both reprehensible and juvenile.

If that's what your group considers to be fun, then great for you! The fact that you can't see the point of view from the rest of us speaks volumes.

 SRSFACE wrote:
people giving me unasked for advice

 kronk wrote:
I would recommend you just stay home, SRSFACE. You seem to have anger management problems.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BlackSanguinor wrote:
In response to all the people getting butthurt over the RPG story, that would be a normal action in my group. You are all giving him a hard time over something his imaginary character did in a fantasy game.

It's not so much butthurt as it is people pointing out that the behavior is both reprehensible and juvenile.

If that's what your group considers to be fun, then great for you! The fact that you can't see the point of view from the rest of us speaks volumes.

Legit question, do you even realize how condescending you sound?

I do have an "anger problem," that's triggered by people being reprehensible donkey-caves. Don't want me getting angry, don't be a dick. It's really simple. I don't see why the onus is on me to not get angry when someone is intentionally doing behavior with the intent of getting a reaction. I believe it's my social responsibility to give people the reaction they are seeking. Once a 6'4" bear of a guy jacks you against the wall when you've been teasing him relentlessly for 4 hours, you tend to stop teasing that guy.

I'm actually a really patient person and am pretty reasonable. I give people fair warnings. "Really? You're going to taunt me when you're the one who brought 3 riptides against a fluffy Dark Angels army? Okay." Then I pick my stuff up because I don't like playing against poor sports. And if they want to then tease me further, that's when gak gets real.

Poor sportsmanship goes two ways. The guy who's an awful winner is 100% worse than a sore loser, to me.

@PUMA713: I get why people do it so I'm not mad when people give advice. It's just, the timing of it, I wish people would think about that a little more. If I'm in a huff because I rolled 4 1s on the 5 terminator armor saves I had to make, sorry, but your advice on how I "should have played it" isn't going to matter to me because I'm mad at the random luck aspect, not because tactically I made a mistake. Funny thing is, I don't even really get mad when I screw up tactically, because at least that's a mistake on my end. Randomness deciding fate is never really fun.

For me, leisure time is limited so getting any game time in is important to me.

What makes me "rage" is when people take elements of an army that live in the "grey zone" of rules and then make comments about not knowing the rules well enough and slowing the game down when I look them up.

Then when I point out they could demonstrate their superior knowledge by pointing out the relevant sections of the rules to help speed it along and they appear unable or unwilling to clarify.

Even better, they open their book, loudly quote a section of the rules and close the book, conveniently overlooking relevant added text to said rule.

Then when you corner them on it (they still did not say what page it was), they have the gall to say "I do not agree with you, we are going to roll off on it!".

Had this happen a couple times, I calmly pack my stuff and say "If you are serious about playing a real game, let me know, but I really do have better things to do with my time.".

I just wish people can be confident / happy enough to just play rules as straight-up as possible and realize as pointed out that if two people are not having fun, it is time to end it right there.

 SRSFACE wrote:
I admit I have a temper. The thing is, I can keep it in check until people start teasing me for it. If I'm getting mad and clearly upset the game is going drastically poorly for me, people giving me unasked for advice is intolerable and I will snap at you. It's one thing at the end of a game when you discuss it with the guy you played with; it's something else entirely when people not part of the game start telling you what you did wrong.

Anyone who says "You mad, bro?", I will fething punch you in the fething face because if you're going to be a troll, I'm going to be a bully. Taunting someone especially when they are known for losing their cool but make sure to go out of their way after the fact to apologize to the other guy is just terrible behavior and it's totally acceptable in American culture.

I would much rather play with someone who gets upset and cares about the game he's playing enough to show too much emotion, than play with someone who's a prick troll. That's just me, though.

LoL. This sort of justified childishness it what makes it frustrating for actual adults to play in a public setting, it's a game BRO, how about you recognize that.

On a sidenote though, I too really hate it when people offer up advice. I mean being friendly and all that, trying to aid you when you're clearly being thrashed, what donkey-caves.

/taunt

Anyhow, as far as Rage stories go, I've seen grown men break beautifully painted models out of frustration and anger, not something I condone, but I get it I guess. Saw a guy chuck a Baneblade during an apoc game; word has it that he took the brunt of the first turn shooting and the thing blew up, taking a few squads of guys with it. It was a shame too, he'd taken a lot of time to get the tank painted exactly the way he'd wanted it, just like the rest of his army, and by the the end of the match the thing was in pieces.

It sucks when you get so far in a game (or maybe get an army so ready for a game) and then get roflstomped. It's happened to us all and as far as the dice gods are concerned, my IG aren't set to win ANYHING short of an initiative roll.

 SRSFACE wrote:
Legit question, do you even realize how condescending you sound?

I do have an "anger problem," that's triggered by people being reprehensible donkey-caves. Don't want me getting angry, don't be a dick. It's really simple. I don't see why the onus is on me to not get angry when someone is intentionally doing behavior with the intent of getting a reaction. I believe it's my social responsibility to give people the reaction they are seeking. Once a 6'4" bear of a guy jacks you against the wall when you've been teasing him relentlessly for 4 hours, you tend to stop teasing that guy.

I'm actually a really patient person and am pretty reasonable. I give people fair warnings. "Really? You're going to taunt me when you're the one who brought 3 riptides against a fluffy Dark Angels army? Okay." Then I pick my stuff up because I don't like playing against poor sports. And if they want to then tease me further, that's when gak gets real.

Poor sportsmanship goes two ways. The guy who's an awful winner is 100% worse than a sore loser, to me.

And neither of those people should be assaulted by an adult human.
Can't handle donkey-caves? Stay home. 6'4"? Whoop dee doo. Welcome to jail if anyone presses charges. Welcome to the hospital/morgue if that cocky guy also carries a knife for when 6'4" guys "jack him against the wall"
If your games are 4 hours of relentless teasing then you need to get a new store or a thicker skin.

 SRSFACE wrote:
I admit I have a temper. The thing is, I can keep it in check until people start teasing me for it. If I'm getting mad and clearly upset the game is going drastically poorly for me, people giving me unasked for advice is intolerable and I will snap at you. It's one thing at the end of a game when you discuss it with the guy you played with; it's something else entirely when people not part of the game start telling you what you did wrong.

Anyone who says "You mad, bro?", I will fething punch you in the fething face because if you're going to be a troll, I'm going to be a bully. Taunting someone especially when they are known for losing their cool but make sure to go out of their way after the fact to apologize to the other guy is just terrible behavior and it's totally acceptable in American culture.

I would much rather play with someone who gets upset and cares about the game he's playing enough to show too much emotion, than play with someone who's a prick troll. That's just me, though.

U mad bro?

I admit I have a temper.

Good. that's the first step in self improvement.

If I'm getting mad and clearly upset the game is going drastically poorly for me, people giving me unasked for advice is intolerable and I will snap at you.

You're admitting that if you are losing a game of toy soldiers, you'll lash out at anyone that gives you advice. This is classic "Don't make me hurt you" circular logic employed by bullies and people with anger management problems.

Anyone who says "You mad, bro?", I will fething punch you in the fething face because if you're going to be a troll, I'm going to be a bully.

More of the same. You will commit assault if you don't like what someone says?

Taunting someone especially when they are known for losing their cool but make sure to go out of their way after the fact to apologize to the other guy is just terrible behavior and it's totally acceptable in American culture.

Huge ramble. Something about modern American culture that you don't agree with to justify your rage. I think.

I would much rather play with someone who gets upset and cares about the game he's playing enough to show too much emotion, than play with someone who's a prick troll. That's just me, though.

You'd rather play with someone that assaults people when the lose? Like a Wookie?

I do have an "anger problem,"

You and I are in agreement.

that's triggered by people being reprehensible donkey-caves. Don't want me getting angry, don't be a dick. It's really simple.

It is easy. You're not in control of your emotions.

I don't see why the onus is on me to not get angry when someone is intentionally doing behavior with the intent of getting a reaction.

If someone is continually a jerk to you, stop playing them. However, the onus is on you (and everyone) to act civilized, which includes not assaulting people over a toy soldiers game.

I believe it's my social responsibility to give people the reaction they are seeking.

If only life was so simple. There is this one chick at the Olive Garden... Man I wish she'd react the way I'm seeking...

Once a 6'4" bear of a guy jacks you against the wall when you've been teasing him relentlessly for 4 hours, you tend to stop teasing that guy.

Right. You stop teasing the guy after he assaults you and then you call the police. After he is charged and sentenced, you then sue him for what he's worth!

I'm actually a really patient person and am pretty reasonable.

Your posts suggest otherwise, which is why I suggested you stay home until you get your anger under control.

I give people fair warnings. "Really? You're going to taunt me when you're the one who brought 3 riptides against a fluffy Dark Angels army? Okay." Then I pick my stuff up because I don't like playing against poor sports.

Removing yourself from a potentially violent situation and/or hostile one is perfectly natural and commendable. 4 stars!

And if they want to then tease me further, that's when gak gets real.

Nevermind. - 4 stars.

Poor sportsmanship goes two ways. The guy who's an awful winner is 100% worse than a sore loser, to me.

100% Agreement here!

 Frankenberry wrote:

LoL. This sort of justified childishness it what makes it frustrating for actual adults to play in a public setting, it's a game BRO, how about you recognize that.

On a sidenote though, I too really hate it when people offer up advice. I mean being friendly and all that, trying to aid you when you're clearly being thrashed, what donkey-caves.

/taunt

Because being sarcastic and implying someone who is being honest and forthright and admitting he's human with a flaw is somehow not an "actual adult" is the behavior that "actual adults" are supposed to exhibit?

Okay.

My point must have not come across very well if you're first response is to troll me rather than to actually try and have a discussion, so let me try again. I am someone who is flawed, and my flaw is I get angry. I have spent a great deal of my life trying to control my anger, and I do a pretty good job of it most of the time. I was bullied my entire life, and continue to be so, to the point where I've attempted to committ suicide at least twice in a span of about 3 months roughly two years ago. I try to keep my emotions in check, and it's very difficult.

I wear my emotions on my sleeve and when people poke and prod at me by taunting, I respond. Again, why is the onus on me? I'm already trying to keep it together. Why is it acceptable to treat other people poorly especially while they are at an emotional low, but it's not okay for that person to retaliate against someone bullying them?

I study psychology (not for school, but just out of curiosity and an attempt at understanding myself, let alone others), and have learned a few insightful things I'd like to share with you all. The thing about anger is that it's not a healthy state of mind, so expecting people who are already in that state of mind to behave rationally is an irrational expectation. You can choose to be infantile and set it off, and then have some sort of backwards logic in your own mind that the person reacting to your taunting is somehow more childish than you are, despite you being the one initiating the bullying. Or, you can choose to try and show some empathy and compassion for the human being across from you and let them know you understand if they are frustrated. When it comes to Warhammer especially, you should theoretically be friends with everyone you play against, and should have been on the bad side of dice enough to know how frustrating it is. I don't understand why someone who's been on the recieving end of a bad day would decide to inflict that on another person, especially in what should be a friendly game.

The offering unwanted advice thing is a personal pet peeve of mine. To me, and to most people especially when they are in a state of anger, they take it to mean not that you care about how they are doing but you want to prove that you're tactically superior. No one wants to know how much better at something you think you are than them, especially when they are having a bad game. I am fairly talented as a painter, and I see people struggling with their own paintings sometimes. Do I go over to them and say "Well what I'd do is this and what I'd do with that, and that sucks, and you need better brush lines here?" No, because that'd be rude. Same thing applies to the tabletop. People ask me for advice all the time; I give it only when they ask. I have to bite my tongue a lot of the time, too, because like every last person into this hobby, I am kind of a know-it-all. (This hobby attracts people with that personality flaw like flies.) Especially if you are not part of my game, I don't care what your opinions are unless I ask for it. It's not actually friendly to offer advice, and that's a fact.

And I suppose I'm guilty of even that just now as my entire rant is basically advice on how to deal with someone who's "raging."

TL;DR If someone is "raging," don't make it worse by treating them with behavior as infantile and childish as you believe they are showing.

 SRSFACE wrote:
I admit I have a temper. The thing is, I can keep it in check until people start teasing me for it. If I'm getting mad and clearly upset the game is going drastically poorly for me, people giving me unasked for advice is intolerable and I will snap at you. It's one thing at the end of a game when you discuss it with the guy you played with; it's something else entirely when people not part of the game start telling you what you did wrong.

Anyone who says "You mad, bro?", I will fething punch you in the fething face because if you're going to be a troll, I'm going to be a bully. Taunting someone especially when they are known for losing their cool but make sure to go out of their way after the fact to apologize to the other guy is just terrible behavior and it's totally acceptable in American culture.

I would much rather play with someone who gets upset and cares about the game he's playing enough to show too much emotion, than play with someone who's a prick troll. That's just me, though.

U mad bro?

Someone's sent you to Frowntown Abbey.