Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Argel Tal was the leader of the Gal Vorbak who were some of the scariest forces the Word Bearers have. Seriously they tore apart Custodes. Damn. Argel Tal was possessed by a particularly powerful daemon. A little weaker than a Greater Daemon. Unlike other possessions (but similar to the Gal Vorbak) this was actually a fairly benevolent fusion of two beings into one, with the host having control. Argel Tal was at the height of his power a particularly powerful Daemon Prince "equivalent". He was BFFs with Kharn.
Surprisingly the new Massacre book lacks Argel Tal (to my knowledge)

Argel Tal may be bought as an upgrade to a Gal Vorbak unit, replacing the Dark Martyr. This upgrade costs 100 points.
Argel Tal
WS:6 BS:4 S:5 T:5 W:4 I:6 A:4 LD:10 SV: 3+/ 4++
Special Rules: Rage, Rending(on melee), Daemon, Stubborn, Very Bulky, Dark Channeling, Fearless, Fear, Founder of the Gal Vorbak
Wargear: MC Power Maul, Plasma Pistol, Power Armor, Burning Lore
Founder of the Gal Vorbak: Argel Tal grants his unit Furious Charge, Fear, and Fearless.

hey!, isn't there a rule for his Bromance with Kharn?

that was my favorite thing in Betrayer, and the way Kharn tried to take revenge for what happened to Argel tal.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
hey!, isn't there a rule for his Bromance with Kharn?

that was my favorite thing in Betrayer, and the way Kharn tried to take revenge for what happened to Argel tal.

Is there?
Let me check Kharn's rules....
I don't see one.

I honestly don't see why he has 4 wounds and 4 attacks. Tone down his stats.

When does he ever wield a power maul? I believe his signature weapons are either his rending claws, 2 swords of red iron or a custode blade and spear.

 Valkyrie wrote:
I honestly don't see why he has 4 wounds and 4 attacks. Tone down his stats.

The thing he's replacing has 3 wounds and 3 attacks.
Rendering it stupid for him not to.

Doesn't mean you have to bump up all stats does it?

 Valkyrie wrote:
Doesn't mean you have to bump up all stats does it?

Strength and Toughness arent buffed up.
Argel Tal was a particularly powerful DP......thingamajigger.......
The stats ate fine points wise, and he fits in with DPs statwise.
No problems.

 ThePrimordial wrote:

 Valkyrie wrote:
Doesn't mean you have to bump up all stats does it?

Strength and Toughness arent buffed up.
Argel Tal was a particularly powerful DP......thingamajigger.......
The stats ate fine points wise, and he fits in with DPs statwise.
No problems.

He wasn't a daemon prince though. He was a powerful possessed marine. 4 attacks is warranted but not 4 wounds.

I'm not sure who this is, but I would recommend making him similar to Arjac Rockfist. Argel Tal was a champion so was Arjac.

 kinratha wrote:
I'm not sure who this is, but I would recommend making him similar to Arjac Rockfist. Argel Tal was a champion so was Arjac.

They aren't even slightly related whatsoever. They are completely different and their rules would be totally incompatible. He's not a fantastic base

Nowhere does it say that Argel Tal was a Daemon Prince. He was a Possessed Marine, and considering that, I'd be inclined to say that even 3 wounds is pushing it a bit, 4 is just ridiculous.

 Valkyrie wrote:
Nowhere does it say that Argel Tal was a Daemon Prince. He was a Possessed Marine, and considering that, I'd be inclined to say that even 3 wounds is pushing it a bit, 4 is just ridiculous.

And yet he's a character almost on a par with Kharn. If you see the amount of wounds he takes in Betrayer you would know he definitely deserves 3 wounds. But not 4.

 Valkyrie wrote:
Nowhere does it say that Argel Tal was a Daemon Prince. He was a Possessed Marine, and considering that, I'd be inclined to say that even 3 wounds is pushing it a bit, 4 is just ridiculous.

I never said he was a DP. He was an incredibly powerful possessed marine however, which is pretty similar in function .
So 3 is pushing it for the guy whose 3 wound underlings are punk bitches compared to him...?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BaconUprising wrote:

 Valkyrie wrote:
Nowhere does it say that Argel Tal was a Daemon Prince. He was a Possessed Marine, and considering that, I'd be inclined to say that even 3 wounds is pushing it a bit, 4 is just ridiculous.

And yet he's a character almost on a par with Kharn. If you see the amount of wounds he takes in Betrayer you would know he definitely deserves 3 wounds. But not 4.

He's a Captain on the level of Kharn who happens to be possesed by one of the strange Chaos Undivided GD things that keep popping up in the HH.
We can do the math from there to say that *might* make him a bit tougher.

 ThePrimordial wrote:

 Valkyrie wrote:
Nowhere does it say that Argel Tal was a Daemon Prince. He was a Possessed Marine, and considering that, I'd be inclined to say that even 3 wounds is pushing it a bit, 4 is just ridiculous.

I never said he was a DP.

ThePrimordial wrote:Strength and Toughness arent buffed up.
Argel Tal was a particularly powerful DP......thingamajigger.......
The stats ate fine points wise, and he fits in with DPs statwise.
No problems.

 Valkyrie wrote:

 ThePrimordial wrote:

 Valkyrie wrote:
Nowhere does it say that Argel Tal was a Daemon Prince. He was a Possessed Marine, and considering that, I'd be inclined to say that even 3 wounds is pushing it a bit, 4 is just ridiculous.

I never said he was a DP.

ThePrimordial wrote:Strength and Toughness arent buffed up.
Argel Tal was a particularly powerful DP......thingamajigger.......
The stats ate fine points wise, and he fits in with DPs statwise.
No problems.

Yeah I know. He's a very powerful possesed marine which I said was very similar. That's what the thingamajigger description is for.

Going solely on the info you have told me and what I could scrounge off of the internet about the Gal Vorbak I can say this guy is to cheap. The added extra on that stat-line cost 10pts a pop so that's 40pts if I am not mistaken for the buffs in WS, A, W and I. Then it's an added 10pts for +1 invul save (this is me assuming the normal version don't have 4++'s, otherwise what's the point in being a daemon?) so that's 50pts. A further 10pts for fearless and it's usually 10pts for furious charge, but that doesn't confer to his unit so lets give it to you for 20pts. Then I am doubting (but not sure) that the Dark martyr comes with the plasma pistol and power maul base and each of them are 15pts each and an extra 5 pts for MC. I won't charge you for granting fear because the entire unit is made up of DAEMONS anyhow so..whatever. Not sure what the burning lore is mind and from the threads I have read it said that the Gal Vorbak have grenades base, did you leave them out or am I mistaken?

Using that pricing system devised by our very own Ovion I would conclude this character should cost at east 115pts unless I am missing out on something else he has over a standard 'Sarge'. Does any of that pricing seem unfair or anything to you?

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Going solely on the info you have told me and what I could scrounge off of the internet about the Gal Vorbak I can say this guy is to cheap. The added extra on that stat-line cost 10pts a pop so that's 40pts if I am not mistaken for the buffs in WS, A, W and I. Then it's an added 10pts for +1 invul save (this is me assuming the normal version don't have 4++'s, otherwise what's the point in being a daemon?) so that's 50pts. A further 10pts for fearless and it's usually 10pts for furious charge, but that doesn't confer to his unit so lets give it to you for 20pts. Then I am doubting (but not sure) that the Dark martyr comes with the plasma pistol and power maul base and each of them are 15pts each and an extra 5 pts for MC. I won't charge you for granting fear because the entire unit is made up of DAEMONS anyhow so..whatever. Not sure what the burning lore is mind and from the threads I have read it said that the Gal Vorbak have grenades base, did you leave them out or am I mistaken?

Using that pricing system devised by our very own Ovion I would conclude this character should cost at east 115pts unless I am missing out on something else he has over a standard 'Sarge'. Does any of that pricing seem unfair or anything to you?

Compare the pricing of a marine to the pricing of a guardsmen and see how broken that system is.
You need something bulkier than 10pts for this or that.
I actually did leave grenades out. He also has very bulky.

But does the pricing not work? 10pts for fearless is fair and is quite consistent based on the pricing on Priests and the Shard of Anaris. A Tyranid Prime pays 10pts for furious charge, maybe 20pts is to cheap but I have never seen that before so maybe 20/25pts because with rending it makes them potent AT. Plasma pistols are 15pts and so are power weapons, no debate there and the grey knight codex puts master crafting at 5pts. 10pts for a stat boost seems fair and I think it is in line with Mark of Nurgle and Slaanesh.

Ovion's guide is also only for Characters/MV/Vehicles, the prices are different for adding effects to entire units. Take a look at it in Ovion's sig, it's really helpful for making balanced rules when working off his frame. It's not perfect, but most things are fairly priced and if you don't feel it's right then you could change it.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
But does the pricing not work? 10pts for fearless is fair and is quite consistent based on the pricing on Priests and the Shard of Anaris. A Tyranid Prime pays 10pts for furious charge, maybe 20pts is to cheap but I have never seen that before so maybe 20/25pts because with rending it makes them potent AT. Plasma pistols are 15pts and so are power weapons, no debate there and the grey knight codex puts master crafting at 5pts. 10pts for a stat boost seems fair and I think it is in line with Mark of Nurgle and Slaanesh.

Ovion's guide is also only for Characters/MV/Vehicles, the prices are different for adding effects to entire units. Take a look at it in Ovion's sig, it's really helpful for making balanced rules when working off his frame. It's not perfect, but most things are fairly priced and if you don't feel it's right then you could change it.

The guide is fine for characters. Just not for Infantry or vehicles.
Points taken. Appreciate the feedback.
Increased cost of upgrade to 100 points .

+ 1 Ws
+ 1 Attack
+ 1 Wound
+ 1 Initiative
+ 1 Invul Save
Fearless
Furrious charge for the whole unit
Master crafted wower weapon
Plasma pistol

If you where to put a fair price on each of these things, preferably using upgrade costs already within the rules, hen you have your character. Stuff like this is pretty easy to price, it gets hard when you start adding in weird rules that no one has seen before, pricing those ones can be a toughie.

Argul tal should be a hq choice, he is lacking wings too, custodes spear and sword.

Gal vorbak were space marines, they have +1 w, tal was a captain so by extension being gal vorbak he gets +1 w, that 3 wounds on a Centurion, he was not a praetor.

IIRC Argel Tal was given the rank of Chapter Master of the Chapter of the Serrated Sun in First Heretic. 4 wounds, 4 attacks, justified.