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It is more my belief, that there are not necessarily useless units, more of most favorite units to least favorite units. Depending upon a person's bankroll, there are any number of reasons why's anyone might favor a particular unit over another. Since I currently do not own at least 1 copy of every unit in the IG codex, it would be premature of me to presume any particular unit's superiority over another Unit.

A lot of different folks can have a lot different experiences with any particular unit(s). In the end, I do know that the phrase, "results may vary" is very applicable here.

SYKOJAK wrote:
It is more my belief, that there are not necessarily useless units, more of most favorite units to least favorite units. Depending upon a person's bankroll, there are any number of reasons why's anyone might favor a particular unit over another. Since I currently do not own at least 1 copy of every unit in the IG codex, it would be premature of me to presume any particular unit's superiority over another Unit.

A lot of different folks can have a lot different experiences with any particular unit(s). In the end, I do know that the phrase, "results may vary" is very applicable here.

Very well said.

It is a mistake just to dismiss a unit just because someone on the internet told you to. Everything has some use, and only a few things are so horribly overcosted that they are actually a detriment to take, and its only the idea that you must take the 'best' unit that means other, less useful but still good, unit get ignored.

Hellhounds are an example. While in terms of efficiency per point the lose out to Vendettas, they are still one of the best ways IG have to clear out entrenched infantry, and in the age of 4+ xenos they are far far more useful that they are given credit for. It really does seem that parts of the community are intent of only having one 'right' way to build each army, as so many times I see proposals to use less-optimum units ruthlessly shot down. Open minds are essential to get the best from a codex or army.

SYKOJAK wrote:
It is more my belief, that there are not necessarily useless units, more of most favorite units to least favorite units. Depending upon a person's bankroll, there are any number of reasons why's anyone might favor a particular unit over another. Since I currently do not own at least 1 copy of every unit in the IG codex, it would be premature of me to presume any particular unit's superiority over another Unit.

A lot of different folks can have a lot different experiences with any particular unit(s). In the end, I do know that the phrase, "results may vary" is very applicable here.

Until you play CSM, and realize that you're not going to win a game without an effing Heldrake :/

But, Your Codex May Vary.

I play CSM and I have won games without an effing Heldrake :-)

Then again I play casually and not in tournaments so I guess it's different.

OT, my vote for Eldar would go to Banshees as they are dead meat without grenades or assault transports or Shining Spears as they are too reliant on breaking or wiping out the enemy on the charge which they don't always have enough attacks for.

They are made to kill elite 3+ save units which eldar can go easily with bladestorm, monofilament and fire prisms/dark reapers.

For CSM, I would say Possessed. Great concept, but very expensive and unable to reach assault without a land raider. If they were beasts or could take wings, they could be awesome.

While Celestians rightly see absolutely zero play, I'd still say the Penitent Engine is the worst unit for the Sisters because it takes up one of our precious Heavy slots. While a Retributor Squad potentially could make up for (and situationally even exceed) what you get with an exorcist, the Penitent Engine is really only three walking pieces of spectacular fireworks.

As if walkers aren't already suffering in 6th, they're open topped too.

I'd still say they have a hypothetical use in some very specific situations, but as they take up a heavy choice, they simply come out on top of the useless heap for me.

We need our exorcists, we could never go with less than two and if we're gonna drop one exorcist it's gonna be for Ret Squad.

 Selym wrote:

SYKOJAK wrote:
It is more my belief, that there are not necessarily useless units, more of most favorite units to least favorite units. Depending upon a person's bankroll, there are any number of reasons why's anyone might favor a particular unit over another. Since I currently do not own at least 1 copy of every unit in the IG codex, it would be premature of me to presume any particular unit's superiority over another Unit.

A lot of different folks can have a lot different experiences with any particular unit(s). In the end, I do know that the phrase, "results may vary" is very applicable here.

Until you play CSM, and realize that you're not going to win a game without an effing Heldrake :/

But, Your Codex May Vary.

This is simply wrong. Running nurgle marked spawn in a star with either typhus (and therefore large squads of plague zombies) or a burgle marked lord on a bike with powerfist and lightning claw with plague marines as troops. In this list you do not need a heldrake and it will win relatively efficiently against most mid to higher level lists.

XXXX

Eldar: Storm Guardians, Banshees, Wraithfighter and Wraithblades.

Dark Angels: Their flyers.

Imperial Fists: Rhinos, Storm Talon, melee Centurions

GoingtoHell wrote:

 Selym wrote:

SYKOJAK wrote:
It is more my belief, that there are not necessarily useless units, more of most favorite units to least favorite units. Depending upon a person's bankroll, there are any number of reasons why's anyone might favor a particular unit over another. Since I currently do not own at least 1 copy of every unit in the IG codex, it would be premature of me to presume any particular unit's superiority over another Unit.

A lot of different folks can have a lot different experiences with any particular unit(s). In the end, I do know that the phrase, "results may vary" is very applicable here.

Until you play CSM, and realize that you're not going to win a game without an effing Heldrake :/

But, Your Codex May Vary.

This is simply wrong. Running nurgle marked spawn in a star with either typhus (and therefore large squads of plague zombies) or a burgle marked lord on a bike with powerfist and lightning claw with plague marines as troops. In this list you do not need a heldrake and it will win relatively efficiently against most mid to higher level lists.

XXXX

The first is easily killed by riptide and wave serpant spam, and is rather slow at moving 6" with typhus slowing the group down, and daemons will simply kill through with Khorne hounds, and the second actually dies against heldrakes.

Eldar:
Banshees, Hemlock, Harlequins.

Tau:
Vespid.

Blood Angels:
I don't even know where to begin. Maybe Sanguinor due to the amount points he takes up. Techmarine is also pretty garbage.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

GoingtoHell wrote:

 Selym wrote:

SYKOJAK wrote:
It is more my belief, that there are not necessarily useless units, more of most favorite units to least favorite units. Depending upon a person's bankroll, there are any number of reasons why's anyone might favor a particular unit over another. Since I currently do not own at least 1 copy of every unit in the IG codex, it would be premature of me to presume any particular unit's superiority over another Unit.

A lot of different folks can have a lot different experiences with any particular unit(s). In the end, I do know that the phrase, "results may vary" is very applicable here.

Until you play CSM, and realize that you're not going to win a game without an effing Heldrake :/

But, Your Codex May Vary.

This is simply wrong. Running nurgle marked spawn in a star with either typhus (and therefore large squads of plague zombies) or a burgle marked lord on a bike with powerfist and lightning claw with plague marines as troops. In this list you do not need a heldrake and it will win relatively efficiently against most mid to higher level lists.

XXXX

The first is easily killed by riptide and wave serpant spam, and is rather slow at moving 6" with typhus slowing the group down, and daemons will simply kill through with Khorne hounds, and the second actually dies against heldrakes.

Both of which are top meta lists. If you ever thought you could take CSM against either of these lists and not be fighting an uphill battle then you are sorely mistaken. Besides how exactly does a heldrake counter any of thee lists? Pure CSM are not a competitive force.

XXXX

Rhinos.

Warbuggies
Av10 vehicles with 2 HP. Can give them twin-linked big shootas or rokkits, but still, av10 and 2 HP.

If you dont hold them in reserves they will be first blood for sure. And even if you do hold them in reserves they dont have outflank or anything so they just come in from the back edge.

Maybe if they had BS3 they would be better.

GoingtoHell wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

GoingtoHell wrote:

 Selym wrote:

SYKOJAK wrote:
It is more my belief, that there are not necessarily useless units, more of most favorite units to least favorite units. Depending upon a person's bankroll, there are any number of reasons why's anyone might favor a particular unit over another. Since I currently do not own at least 1 copy of every unit in the IG codex, it would be premature of me to presume any particular unit's superiority over another Unit.

A lot of different folks can have a lot different experiences with any particular unit(s). In the end, I do know that the phrase, "results may vary" is very applicable here.

Until you play CSM, and realize that you're not going to win a game without an effing Heldrake :/

But, Your Codex May Vary.

This is simply wrong. Running nurgle marked spawn in a star with either typhus (and therefore large squads of plague zombies) or a burgle marked lord on a bike with powerfist and lightning claw with plague marines as troops. In this list you do not need a heldrake and it will win relatively efficiently against most mid to higher level lists.

XXXX

The first is easily killed by riptide and wave serpant spam, and is rather slow at moving 6" with typhus slowing the group down, and daemons will simply kill through with Khorne hounds, and the second actually dies against heldrakes.

Both of which are top meta lists. If you ever thought you could take CSM against either of these lists and not be fighting an uphill battle then you are sorely mistaken. Besides how exactly does a heldrake counter any of thee lists? Pure CSM are not a competitive force.

XXXX

Want to go bikers to guard your lord? Well then watch as I deny your cover save and your armor save each turn blazing through them. Putting him with spawn? Ha I beg you to! I'll just focus fire if you don't have him in the open because a bike gets a 5+ cover save for driving. Spawn are not worth it if moving that slow. One of their big selling points is they are beasts meaning 12 inches+d6 and entirely ignoring cover. Any army fielding high strength guns will chew through spawn if they can at best move 6+d6 and that is ignoring the fact that Typhus would force them to move d6 inches through terrain.

Also, if pure CSM are not competitive, then what is? We are only BB with one faction that has innumerable rules to restrict those benefits and it is an army that arguably does better without us. The only thing chaos has going for them is perhaps Huron, Be'lakour (whom daemons can take), chaos lord Nurgle everything, Khorne axe juggerlord maybe, Plague Marines, Heldrake, okay bikers, and pretty good spawn oh and the bandaid Oblit that has lost much of its former glory. The book is an utter mess and it is a fluff destroying unplayable mess of uninspiring proportions. It destroyed the intrigue of warp denizens besides the 4 gods, it entirely removed undivided daemons, it hamstrung us with possibly the worst special rule for the army (although DA give us a run for money). And don't even try to play Tzeentch unless you play daemons or play them only in name. There is approximately one model in the entire book where the mark of Tzeentch is the best option and for most others it is insanity to take the mark and Thousand Sons have yet again been a trashy unit whilst Tzeentchian sorcerers are worse than every sorcerer and the only psyker they might best is ld8 psykers.

The new tyranid malenthrope rules in APOC.

They are so bad, its literally stunning.

I will have to use my model to proxy something better, like a ripper with a broken tooth....

 Banzaimash wrote:
Rhinos.

Rhinos work pretty well for my IF and Sisters. I count them as a "Must take."

 StarTrotter wrote:

GoingtoHell wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

GoingtoHell wrote:

 Selym wrote:

SYKOJAK wrote:
It is more my belief, that there are not necessarily useless units, more of most favorite units to least favorite units. Depending upon a person's bankroll, there are any number of reasons why's anyone might favor a particular unit over another. Since I currently do not own at least 1 copy of every unit in the IG codex, it would be premature of me to presume any particular unit's superiority over another Unit.

A lot of different folks can have a lot different experiences with any particular unit(s). In the end, I do know that the phrase, "results may vary" is very applicable here.

Until you play CSM, and realize that you're not going to win a game without an effing Heldrake :/

But, Your Codex May Vary.

This is simply wrong. Running nurgle marked spawn in a star with either typhus (and therefore large squads of plague zombies) or a burgle marked lord on a bike with powerfist and lightning claw with plague marines as troops. In this list you do not need a heldrake and it will win relatively efficiently against most mid to higher level lists.

XXXX

The first is easily killed by riptide and wave serpant spam, and is rather slow at moving 6" with typhus slowing the group down, and daemons will simply kill through with Khorne hounds, and the second actually dies against heldrakes.

Both of which are top meta lists. If you ever thought you could take CSM against either of these lists and not be fighting an uphill battle then you are sorely mistaken. Besides how exactly does a heldrake counter any of thee lists? Pure CSM are not a competitive force.

XXXX

Want to go bikers to guard your lord? Well then watch as I deny your cover save and your armor save each turn blazing through them. Putting him with spawn? Ha I beg you to! I'll just focus fire if you don't have him in the open because a bike gets a 5+ cover save for driving. Spawn are not worth it if moving that slow. One of their big selling points is they are beasts meaning 12 inches+d6 and entirely ignoring cover. Any army fielding high strength guns will chew through spawn if they can at best move 6+d6 and that is ignoring the fact that Typhus would force them to move d6 inches through terrain.

So let me get this straight. Your saying that because a heldrake can kill this list, because something can kills this list that it is useless? By that logic a deer council sucks because it dies to mind strike missiles...yeah no. Heldrakes are by no means essential to a CSM list. Did I ever say they were weak? No. They are very useful units but are not an auto take to win.

XXXX

GoingtoHell wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:

GoingtoHell wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

GoingtoHell wrote:

 Selym wrote:

SYKOJAK wrote:
It is more my belief, that there are not necessarily useless units, more of most favorite units to least favorite units. Depending upon a person's bankroll, there are any number of reasons why's anyone might favor a particular unit over another. Since I currently do not own at least 1 copy of every unit in the IG codex, it would be premature of me to presume any particular unit's superiority over another Unit.

A lot of different folks can have a lot different experiences with any particular unit(s). In the end, I do know that the phrase, "results may vary" is very applicable here.

Until you play CSM, and realize that you're not going to win a game without an effing Heldrake :/

But, Your Codex May Vary.

This is simply wrong. Running nurgle marked spawn in a star with either typhus (and therefore large squads of plague zombies) or a burgle marked lord on a bike with powerfist and lightning claw with plague marines as troops. In this list you do not need a heldrake and it will win relatively efficiently against most mid to higher level lists.

XXXX

The first is easily killed by riptide and wave serpant spam, and is rather slow at moving 6" with typhus slowing the group down, and daemons will simply kill through with Khorne hounds, and the second actually dies against heldrakes.

Both of which are top meta lists. If you ever thought you could take CSM against either of these lists and not be fighting an uphill battle then you are sorely mistaken. Besides how exactly does a heldrake counter any of thee lists? Pure CSM are not a competitive force.

XXXX

Want to go bikers to guard your lord? Well then watch as I deny your cover save and your armor save each turn blazing through them. Putting him with spawn? Ha I beg you to! I'll just focus fire if you don't have him in the open because a bike gets a 5+ cover save for driving. Spawn are not worth it if moving that slow. One of their big selling points is they are beasts meaning 12 inches+d6 and entirely ignoring cover. Any army fielding high strength guns will chew through spawn if they can at best move 6+d6 and that is ignoring the fact that Typhus would force them to move d6 inches through terrain.

So let me get this straight. Your saying that because a heldrake can kill this list, because something can kills this list that it is useless? By that logic a deer council sucks because it dies to mind strike missiles...yeah no. Heldrakes are by no means essential to a CSM list. Did I ever say they were weak? No. They are very useful units but are not an auto take to win.

XXXX

I only said why the heldrake counters that specific setup not that it entirely invalidates it (CSM have long lost their popularity of 3.5) although then with a competitive environment flushed with that, the rise of Tau and riptide in popularity at shops it does also limit its effectiveness. That being said, spawn are good, bikes are okay, and kitted out chaos lords are okay-pretty good so certainly not worst unit in the codex. On a quick note, it is funny to me that spawn went from one of the worst units in the game to one of the best units in the CSM codex.

Orks

Tank Bustas: Too fragile to really hurt tanks that much. Don't have Tank Hhunter and Glory Hogs makes 'em useless.

Warbuggy: Over priced and under powered. You'd be better off buying a trukk and getting a proper transport.

Stormboyz: Basically a suicide squad. once in the fray they are just normal boyz. need better armor and some special rules.

Kommandos: See OP

Flash Gitz: See OP

Weird boy: Too expensive and can;t compete anymore with the Psykers of today

Deff Dread/Killa Kan: Walkers more fragile that your average Dread. To be fair though, if you opponent doesn't think to use grenades or has none, then a Deff Dread with 4 DNCCW can wreck face pretty well.

Burnas(sort of): Only really effective against swarm 'nids with lots of gaunts

 Overlord Thraka wrote:
Orks

Tank Bustas: Too fragile to really hurt tanks that much. Don't have Tank Hhunter and Glory Hogs makes 'em useless.

Warbuggy: Over priced and under powered. You'd be better off buying a trukk and getting a proper transport.

Stormboyz: Basically a suicide squad. once in the fray they are just normal boyz. need better armor and some special rules.

Kommandos: See OP

Flash Gitz: See OP

Weird boy: Too expensive and can;t compete anymore with the Psykers of today

Deff Dread/Killa Kan: Walkers more fragile that your average Dread. To be fair though, if you opponent doesn't think to use grenades or has none, then a Deff Dread with 4 DNCCW can wreck face pretty well.

Burnas(sort of): Only really effective against swarm 'nids with lots of gaunts

I would disagree with the dreads. If your opponent hasn't brought the right list to counter them a dread/kan spam list can be devastating. If they have...good luck...

XXXX

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:


Imperial Fists: Rhinos, Storm Talon

Those 2 units are really great.

 sing your life wrote:

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:


Imperial Fists: Rhinos, Storm Talon

Those 2 units are really great.

Not really great but far from the worst

XXXX

If the Stormtalon is the worst what does that make the raven?

Martel732 wrote:
If the Stormtalon is the worst what does that make the raven?

My answer:

GoingtoHell wrote:

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

 chiefbigredman wrote:
Eldar...haven't played but am collecting. I know people say swooping hawks but they would be useful and can do some damage. Wraithguard and wraithblades are super expensive points wise for 5 models. Especially with d-sythes thats 200+ points for 5 models that aren't especially strong. I still use them though.

Its obvious that you haven't played Eldar yet if you think d-scythe Wraithguard are overpriced. Both of the shooting varieties of WG are simply amazing against pretty much any army. If anything, WG are probably slightly undercosted in comparison to comparable units. For example, take 200 points of WG and compare them to 200 points of tactical terminators....its not even close.

Comparing the price to tactical terminators is totally irrelevant and has no impact whatsoever on a cost effectiveness verdict. They are in fact slightly overpriced for what they do but due to the role they can perform in a list centered around wraith constructs they are far from bad.

XXXX

I disagree, I feel its a completely relevant comparison. In fact, that's kind of how you determine if something is overpriced or not, by comparing it to different units that have the same role. Both units serve the same purpose, elite heavy infantry. WG excel in this role while being cheaper than tactical Terminators initially, while Terminators are both less effective and cost more.

What do you think a T6 3+ save model (effectively making the unit immune to basic small arms fire) with a base weapon that can easily wreck a Land Raider and causes ID to most targets should cost? Also, take into consideration that WG have access to the best dedicated transport in the game, and can be made Troops rather easily. If you ask me, for their points, WG are a steal (especially in a WS).

Since all units have stats that are compatible, we can literally compare anything to anything in 40K.

That's why people who say "But you can't compare the Stormraven to the Vendetta!" annoy me. I play against them frequently. The hell I can't compare.

the CSM codex personally, from my standpoint, has the following COMPETITIVE units.

Zombie Cultists
Heldrakes

Everything else from my point of view, is either over costed, terrible at its role, or simply not fitting with the dex match up and current state of 6th Ed. Tri Las Preds I would say are "OK" but not amazing since they have 1 simple function, and even then its a probable waste of time. Our land Raiders might be cheap, but they're stuck with a load out that we simply dont want...nor need...

CSM has meq disease. If you combined all the best stuff from all meq codices, you MIGHT be able to go toe to toe with Taudar, but I doubt it.

But plague marines are still awesome.

Plague Marines are nice, but I still think they could be a LOT cheaper... It's bad enough to consider them troops, you have ot invest 65+15+(inset competitive upgrades to Chaos Lord here) first... 24 points per model is ravenous. take 2 squads of 7 for 14 models = 336 points no upgs. Then factor in that if you want them as troops you might as well take the lord or Typhus, either way, ur dividing his point value into their cost since he probably wont see much play time himself...

so..

336 point for Plague Marines. (+30 points per squad for plasma guns = 60 total) = 396

Lord = 65 + 15 + Terminator Armor 40 / Bike 20
+ Sigil 25
+ Black Mace 45 / Murder sword 35 / BBoS 30
= 155 - 190 points

Divide that into your squad, each member basically costing you an extra 27 points per model if you want them to be troops..

Same can be said about Noise Marines too, and I love my Noise Marines... but for the basics / mandatory list build for them, you're looking at 291 points for a squad of 10 with 2 blast masters FnP and Sonic Blasters. For their use, they are expensive as all hell and simply not worth taking when you consider their Troop Unlocking character is a melee =/ (Lucious the Eternal) Then you try to build a Lord for shooti and he is terrible... I guess if you really wanted to waste your time you could throw the BBoS on HIM instead and between your Sergeant's Doom Siren, and his BBoS you could probably kill a few things charging you.... If you bother adding the points in...

I can see all your points. But we are back to meq disease. We are both in the same boat.

Necrons:
Lychguard - slow, expensive, and a crappy save even with the shield (and in IA they get worse). Flayed ones are cheap and have some use. Praetorians (with void blades) need a DLord but are more agile and maneuverable.

Orks:
TankBustas - Gloryhog is their downfall.

Dark Eldar:
Archon's court - only because you have to take one of each model else it'd be Mandrakes.

CSM:
Mutilators - Slow, Expensive, and really make no sense other than GW's need to have a CC clone of Oblits for some reason.