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YMMV, they're not *that* godly compared to guarsmen and I am pretty sure a tank should reduce the SM to fine like pieces splattered all over the place. Or that a melta/plasma gun should remove most of their anatomy.

 Bobthehero wrote:
YMMV, they're not *that* godly compared to guarsmen and I am pretty sure a tank should reduce the SM to fine like pieces splattered all over the place. Or that a melta/plasma gun should remove most of their anatomy.

Your interpretation.

As valid as any other.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
People tend to assume that Marines are useless and weak due to their tabletop stats, but that is just one interpretation. In the Standard Bearer article of the WD where C:SM 5th ed was released, (I think it was that WD) that very issue was adressed. It was explained that the rules were not designed for a squad of Space Marines versus a massive horde of orks, even if that might be a fair match-up in the 'real' 40K, because it is a lot less visually exciting than masses of Space Marines fighting masses of Orks.

An important thing to keep in mind before you claim Marines are as useless as you think they are. They are few, but commonly fight in locations that are very important strategically and they apply such truly massive force concentration that they just outclass most other options the Imperium has. And when you gather a good number of them, they can just carve a path through pretty much any resistance. They simply blow other forces out of the water when they are allowed to do when they want to do. On the defense, you can imagine the Marines as a rock in a body of water. Sure, the body of water may be the size of a large lake, but it still won't shatter the rock. On the offense, they are like a scalpel cutting into an unfortunate Dark Eldar victim. Ouchy.

One is just as free to interpret them as obsolete useless propaganda-machines, of course. But that is not 'the one right path'.

Throwing out this again as it seems to be overlooked. Particularly the WD part.

No one has argued that point. They're an elite unit. They excel at rapid strikes at targets that aren't expecting the strike, for removing personnel, materials or infrastructure, and getting out again.

What they really aren't good at is a stand-up fight against a numerically-superior foe with equipment that is effectively equal to a boltgun.

 Psienesis wrote:
No one has argued that point. They're an elite unit. They excel at rapid strikes at targets that aren't expecting the strike, for removing personnel, materials or infrastructure, and getting out again.

What they really aren't good at is a stand-up fight against a numerically-superior foe with equipment that is effectively equal to a boltgun.

Debatable. Some are good at that. I think the imperial fists are good frontline troops because they get astartes quicker than most chapters, (mostly in due part because how else would they stay alive because in most lore they are the space marine punching bag.)

 Bobthehero wrote:
YMMV, they're not *that* godly compared to guarsmen and I am pretty sure a tank should reduce the SM to fine like pieces splattered all over the place. Or that a melta/plasma gun should remove most of their anatomy.[/quote

Actually space marine power armour is said to be able to take a glancing blow from a leman russ battle tank shell and terminator armour can simply shrug it off

And as for a melta plasma gun yes they would disintegrate power armour and most of a space marine but the rarity of such weapons is also a problem especially in guardsmen regiments

Uh, no, there's more plasma/melta guns than there are marines, probably a hundred times over.

And more tanks etc.

PA is also not 100% proof agaisnt the basic lasgun.

 Asherian Command wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
No one has argued that point. They're an elite unit. They excel at rapid strikes at targets that aren't expecting the strike, for removing personnel, materials or infrastructure, and getting out again.

What they really aren't good at is a stand-up fight against a numerically-superior foe with equipment that is effectively equal to a boltgun.

Debatable. Some are good at that. I think the imperial fists are good frontline troops because they get astartes quicker than most chapters, (mostly in due part because how else would they stay alive because in most lore they are the space marine punching bag.)

We have evidence that Space Marines do not like to hang around for sieges, as this denies them most of their assets (speed, mobility, fear, surprise, etc). While the IF might be the best SM Chapter at siege warfare... that isn't necessarily saying much.

brother marcus wrote:
I wounded quite a lot of them almost 2 were dead but yea I still only killed one.

And the rules were pretty spot on for what you read about marines

Yeah, not sure I can accept the implication that ten Marines can against an entire Tau force for an extended period and only lose one guy.

I don't even think that's how they're dpecited "in the fluff" overall, at least not that extreme. I've read plenty of stories where Marines have extremely good endurance and combat ability, but they still take casualties against numerically superior enemies.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
The 'movie marine' stats place each Marine at 100 points, and seem reasonable.

I may not be thinking of the same thing, but weren't those designed for Marines that would appear in Imperial propaganda movies? If that's the case, of course they'd be overstated.

 Bobthehero wrote:
YMMV, they're not *that* godly compared to guarsmen and I am pretty sure a tank should reduce the SM to fine like pieces splattered all over the place. Or that a melta/plasma gun should remove most of their anatomy.

Astartes have tanked meltaguns. Huron Blackheart says hello. As for tanks, it'll be destroyed before it can ever fire a shot, as even Assault Squads carry AT weaponry capable of popping a Leman Russ. Warhound Titans are completely vulnerable to squads once any shielding is popped, to the point a CSM killed one with a well-placed strike from a power sword.

And no, PA is completely invulnerable to a lasgun. Unless they stood in place and let a thousand guardsmen unload continuously, it's not going to penetrate due to the nature of ceramite being the best heat absorbent for armor in W40K after admantanium. Hellguns and Hotshots stand a chance of penetrating armor besides the heavily armored pauldrons with multiple hits, while plasma will most of the time penetrate, along with meltas. And even then there are Astartes that have survived plasma guns and meltas (which also as they are the Imperial Guard variants, weaker than standard arms for Astartes).

 Wyzilla wrote:
Astartes have tanked meltaguns. Huron Blackheart says hello.

He lost entire right side of his body, and only survived thanks to the combined efforts of a Lord Apothecary and a Forge Master. I would hardly call that "tanking it". If he wasn't in a position where his fellow Marines could retrieve and rebuild him, he would have been rather dead.

 Wyzilla wrote:
As for tanks, it'll be destroyed before it can ever fire a shot, as even Assault Squads carry AT weaponry capable of popping a Leman Russ.

Or the tanks will blow the Marines up before they get close enough! Also, I notice that you said that like it was an inevitability, as if tanks vs. Marines was a forgone conclusion.

 Troike wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Astartes have tanked meltaguns. Huron Blackheart says hello.

He lost entire right side of his body, and only survived thanks to the combined efforts of a Lord Apothecary and a Forge Master. I would hardly call that "tanking it". If he wasn't in a position where his fellow Marines could retrieve and rebuild him, he would have been rather dead.

 Wyzilla wrote:
As for tanks, it'll be destroyed before it can ever fire a shot, as even Assault Squads carry AT weaponry capable of popping a Leman Russ.

Or the tanks will blow the Marines up before they get close enough! Also, I notice that you said that like it was an inevitability, as if tanks vs. Marines was a forgone conclusion.

Normally average McMook gets full on vaporized by a melta.

And again, we have examples of Astartes versus armor. So long as they have their standard AT weapons such as meltaguns, lascannons, meltabombs, plasma guns/cannons, etc. The only time tanks lower than a Baneblade pose a massive threat is when they either catch a defensive line with its pants down or they've run out of ammo by fighting a whole previous line of armor. The advantage of Guard and Traitor Guard tanks isn't their quality, it's that there's more tanks than the ammo Astartes have for their guns.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
YMMV, they're not *that* godly compared to guarsmen and I am pretty sure a tank should reduce the SM to fine like pieces splattered all over the place. Or that a melta/plasma gun should remove most of their anatomy.

Astartes have tanked meltaguns. Huron Blackheart says hello.

He was in Terminator armor, you know, the one with the force field and still he lost a good chunk of himself.


I am pretty sure a Leman Russ with MM sponsons, Battlecannon and hull Lascannon would be something Marines would be wary of.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Normally average McMook gets full on vaporized by a melta.

Though lying on the battlefield with half your body gone is hardly an ideal condition either. And Huron himself wasn't really the average Marine either. He's not exactly a valid standard for all Marines.

 Wyzilla wrote:
And again, we have examples of Astartes versus armor. So long as they have their standard AT weapons such as meltaguns, lascannons, meltabombs, plasma guns/cannons, etc.

That doesn't make it a forgone conclusion. The tanks could take out the Marines armed with the anti-tank weapons, the tanks could simply get luckier hits in, the tanks could be firing from further away than some of those weapons can reliably hit.

 Wyzilla wrote:
it's that there's more tanks than the ammo Astartes have for their guns.

I think that's going a little far...

 Troike wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Normally average McMook gets full on vaporized by a melta.

Though lying on the battlefield with half your body gone is hardly an ideal condition either. And Huron himself wasn't really the average Marine either.

 Wyzilla wrote:
And again, we have examples of Astartes versus armor. So long as they have their standard AT weapons such as meltaguns, lascannons, meltabombs, plasma guns/cannons, etc.

That doesn't make it a forgone conclusion. The tanks could take out the Marines armed with the anti-tank weapons, the tanks could simply get luckier hits in, the tanks could be firing from further away than some of those weapons can reliably hit.

 Wyzilla wrote:
it's that there's more tanks than the ammo Astartes have for their guns.

I think that's going a little far...

Not really. IIRC, most of the IG tanks are built via STCs, hence them being filled with tanks. They might vary in quality, but the production ability remains the same. There was one Company of a Chapter fighting traitor guardsmen that was nearly wiped out due to them being cut off from orbital assets and just ran completely out of ammo and could no longer fight.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Not really. IIRC, most of the IG tanks are built via STCs, hence them being filled with tanks.

Their tanks are filled with tanks? Did the engineer who made those STCs go by the name of Xzibit, by any chance?

 Wyzilla wrote:
There was one Company of a Chapter fighting traitor guardsmen that was nearly wiped out due to them being cut off from orbital assets and just ran completely out of ammo and could no longer fight.

Though it may not always go that way. All I'm saying is that tanks vs Marines isn't a forgone conclusion in favour of the Marines. A tank's gun can certainly kill Marines, and the Marines aren't always going to be able to take it down before it gets them frist.

 Wyzilla wrote:


And no, PA is completely invulnerable to a lasgun. Unless they stood in place and let a thousand guardsmen unload continuously, it's not going to penetrate due to the nature of ceramite being the best heat absorbent for armor in W40K after admantanium.

This. It is often underlooked, but the only real reason this is not displayed in the game is that nobody would buy a unit that has a weapon useless against the most common troops choice to encounter. As well as the reasons that I've quoted a few times, and that GW simply wants you to buy more SM.

Buuuut...

In all honesty, it has been very entertaining to have these discussions on Dakkadakka. Our local meta just interpreted the entire fluff as 'In fluff Marines are powerful enough to survive direct artillery hits and tank almost everything. That seems reasonable.', and never really gave too much thought to if anyone else would prefer it another way.

Before I came here, I certainly would not expect to find the opinions I did.

Wyzilla wrote:And no, PA is completely invulnerable to a lasgun.

Nnnnope.

You're making gak up.

 Melissia wrote:

Wyzilla wrote:And no, PA is completely invulnerable to a lasgun.

Nnnnope.

You're making gak up.

More like reason.

Talking fluffwise, mind. I am well aware it's been removed in the game for reasons stated in my previous post.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:


And no, PA is completely invulnerable to a lasgun. Unless they stood in place and let a thousand guardsmen unload continuously, it's not going to penetrate due to the nature of ceramite being the best heat absorbent for armor in W40K after admantanium.

This. It is often underlooked, but the only real reason this is not displayed in the game is that nobody would buy a unit that has a weapon useless against the most common troops choice to encounter. As well as the reasons that I've quoted a few times, and that GW simply wants you to buy more SM.

Buuuut...

In all honesty, it has been very entertaining to have these discussions on Dakkadakka. Our local meta just interpreted the entire fluff as 'In fluff Marines are powerful enough to survive direct artillery hits and tank almost everything. That seems reasonable.', and never really gave too much thought to if anyone else would prefer it another way.

Before I came here, I certainly would not expect to find the opinions I did.

Nothing's as crazy as the high end. High end marines are a 'do not touch' item by nearly anyone, considering Astartes with FTL speeds/reactions is just ridiculous for anyone.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
More like reason.

Nope. He's just flat out making gak up, and going directly against the lore.

Even the best master-crafted power armor, the likes of which exists maybe once in a thousand years and is only used by heroes far too legendary for tabletop, is not "invulnerable" to lasgun fire.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:


And no, PA is completely invulnerable to a lasgun. Unless they stood in place and let a thousand guardsmen unload continuously, it's not going to penetrate due to the nature of ceramite being the best heat absorbent for armor in W40K after admantanium.

This. It is often underlooked, but the only real reason this is not displayed in the game is that nobody would buy a unit that has a weapon useless against the most common troops choice to encounter. As well as the reasons that I've quoted a few times, and that GW simply wants you to buy more SM.

Buuuut...

In all honesty, it has been very entertaining to have these discussions on Dakkadakka. Our local meta just interpreted the entire fluff as 'In fluff Marines are powerful enough to survive direct artillery hits and tank almost everything. That seems reasonable.', and never really gave too much thought to if anyone else would prefer it another way.

Before I came here, I certainly would not expect to find the opinions I did.

Nothing's as crazy as the high end. High end marines are a 'do not touch' item by nearly anyone, considering Astartes with FTL speeds/reactions is just ridiculous for anyone.

Well, we never did go that far. But it is kind of interesting, the insane in-universe power differences one creates by looking at it our way.

But hey, no way is the 'right' way.


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 Melissia wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
More like reason.

Nope. He's just flat out making gak up, and going directly against the lore.

Even the best master-crafted power armor, the likes of which exists maybe once in a thousand years and is only used by heroes far too legendary for tabletop, is not "invulnerable" to lasgun fire.

Power Armour is made out of ceramite, a ceramic material created by heating it to extreme temperatures. This creates a material that not only is extremely good at warding off heat, but that is darn near impossible to melt; you need some serious firepower (Close range meltashot, for example) to do that. The lasgun is a heat-based weapon, firing an energy beam that causes burn wounds- potentially rather severe ones on unarmoured targets- but it is still a heat based weapon.

PA is a hard counter to lasguns.

Plenty of characters wearing power armor have been taken down by lasguns, yes, including Space Marines.

It is not a "hard counter" to lasguns any more than the sloped armor of a T-34 was a "hard counter" to the StuG's 75mm main gun. Sloped armor was excellent protection, but even a frontal shot could still take the tank out, especially after it's already taken hits. And that's only looking at a shot hitting its strongest area-- a good shot to the treads or turret will truly feth up the tank's ability to make war in some way or other, similar to lasguns hitting the joints of power armor or taking out its backpack.

 Melissia wrote:

It is not a "hard counter" to lasguns any more than the sloped armor of a T-34 was a "hard counter" to the StuG's 75mm main gun.

I'm almost certain you mean "the 5.0cm gun of the Panzer MkIII" seeing as 7.5cm Stugs didn't appear till '42, and didn't have much trouble with T-34s.

Provide a source of Space Marines shrugging off LRBT rounds and tanking Lasgun shots. Actually, provide more than one source of this as Black Library novels have been known to... exaggerate a little.

 Melissia wrote:
Plenty of characters wearing power armor have been taken down by lasguns, yes, including Space Marines.

It is not a "hard counter" to lasguns any more than the sloped armor of a T-34 was a "hard counter" to the StuG's 75mm main gun. Sloped armor was excellent protection, but even a frontal shot could still take the tank out, especially after it's already taken hits. And that's only looking at a shot hitting its strongest area-- a good shot to the treads or turret will truly feth up the tank's ability to make war in some way or other, similar to lasguns hitting the joints of power armor or taking out its backpack.

Explain Orks, Astartes, Chaos Astartes, and the big Nids eating lasguns. Repeatedly. In fact, it's typically the full frontal shot that is eaten harmlessly. Even if it punches through the armor, it's still unlikely to even mortally wound the occupant.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
The 'movie marine' stats place each Marine at 100 points, and seem reasonable.

It was never supposed to be representative of "fluff" marines, any more than wargear "stunt doubles" were. They were exactly what GW portrayed them as, Movie Marines, not "Fluff Marines". Most universe fluff backs that up, a plasma gun or Krak Missile will usually kill a marine outright or at least take them out of the fight (barring whatever protagonist is being covered or some other major plot character), just like it does on the table, while it'd only take a single wound off a Movie Marine.

BrotherHaraldus wrote:

And no, PA is completely invulnerable to a lasgun.

Not really, there's multiple examples in the fluff of this not being the case. PA is proof against a few lasgun shots in certain areas (chest, shoulders, legs, etc) but necks, groins, etc are vulnerable and we have fluff examples of marines taking bursts of lasgun fire to their armor and it failing. Even in FFG's RPG's, Power Armor can be penetrated by lasgun fire, and their RPG's take Space Marines to ridiculous levels by FFG's own accord.

This. It is often underlooked, but the only real reason this is not displayed in the game is that nobody would buy a unit that has a weapon useless against the most common troops choice to encounter. As well as the reasons that I've quoted a few times, and that GW simply wants you to buy more SM.

Buuuut...

In all honesty, it has been very entertaining to have these discussions on Dakkadakka. Our local meta just interpreted the entire fluff as 'In fluff Marines are powerful enough to survive direct artillery hits and tank almost everything. That seems reasonable.', and never really gave too much thought to if anyone else would prefer it another way.

Even in the fluff they don't survive direct hits from heavy tank weaponry, so I'm not sure where you're getting that from. I can think of many examples of marines dying to lesser weaponry, like an IW siege engineer in Storm of Iron being killed by a direct mortar impact, and tons of marines die to bolters and knives.

Asherian Command wrote:
Debatable. Some are good at that. I think the imperial fists are good frontline troops because they get astartes quicker than most chapters, (mostly in due part because how else would they stay alive because in most lore they are the space marine punching bag.)

Maybe for a very short stretch of frontage of a kilometer or two (remember, there's only about a thousand of these guys), but without support they'd be easily encircled (and then destroyed at leisure by artillery/crew served weapons/airstrikes/tanks/etc) or, potentially worse, simply bypassed.

Wyzilla wrote:
Explain Orks, Astartes, Chaos Astartes, and the big Nids eating lasguns. Repeatedly. In fact, it's typically the full frontal shot that is eaten harmlessly.

Sometimes they do. Orks have a uniquely incredible biology, but can still be killed in droves by lasgun fire quite easily. Power Armor is highly resistant, so most shots will be absorbed, but is not invulnerable. The only Nids to "eat" lasgun fire relatively harmlessly are the big huge things the size of buses with thick armor plating, living tanks.

Even if it punches through the armor, it's still unlikely to even mortally wound the occupant.

Based on what? Even then, doesn't need to mortally wound them to put them out of a fight. If you put them into shock or unconciousness that works, if you cause major damage to organs they may still be awake and not in immediate danger of dying right there but may not be able to fight, take out a leg you've got a mobility kill that needs to be left behind or escorted back, etc. No different than gunshot wounds on modern battlefields (relatively few kill their targets immediately, or fast enough to be close, on impact, that usually requires a headshot, hitting a major blood vessel and bleeding out, or bursting the heart)

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
r (Close range meltashot, for example)

Plasma guns and hellguns do that, too, and the hellgun is just a very hot lasgun.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Explain Orks, Astartes, Chaos Astartes, and the big Nids eating lasguns.

They don't.

Orks get cut down by lasgun fire. They just take more hits than humans do because of innate biological toughness (They also are more likely to recover from said wounds than astartes or humans are), but they still get cut down by it. The Imperial Guard defeats Orks with massed lasgun fire on such a regular basis that most of the time it's not even mentioned-- it's assumed.

Why you mentioned Astartes twice, I have no clue. Maybe you're obsessed with them. But Marines also get killed by lasgun fire, both loyalist traitor. Less often than Orks because of armor (power armor is superior to slabs of raw iron stapled in to the flesh), but they are not impervious to it either.

And really, are you actually trying to claim that a Space Marine is equivalent to a Carnifex? Because I'm going point at you. And while so pointing, I am going to start laughing. Rolling on the floor may result. Laughing will continue, regardless.

MarsNZ wrote:
I'm almost certain you mean "the 5.0cm gun of the Panzer MkIII" seeing as 7.5cm Stugs didn't appear till '42, and didn't have much trouble with T-34s.

No, I think I'll stick with the comparison I made.

Ah, Siege mode engaged. Ok then.

Or rather, it should show to you my opinion on power armor-- it's awesome to have, but it's still better to not get shot in the first place.