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In my personal interpretation, I see them as fething OP. Black Library fluff is inconsistent, tabletop rules are implausible to use as background and codexes etc. are too vague. You can't say that all of it is canon since there are direct contradictions all over the place.

But.

That is not what I am arguing for. I know better than to take something 100% subjective into arguments where sources and stuff is thrown around like grenades.

My personal opinions do not impair my ability to discuss things!

I'm sticking to source-throwing and the original common-sense throwing in discussions here, really.

 Wyzilla wrote:
On the subject of Sisters armor, it's the same quality. Just remember that it's also less. Astartes don't only have the advantage of the black carapace, but being simply larger and stronger, and can thus wear more armor, which thanks to the black carapace, doesn't even feel like armor. The legs and pauldrons of Astartes PA especially comes to mind.

Still outright stated to be just as protective, though. And provides the same protection on the tabletop. Maybe it doesn't make sense to you, but that's what GW has said.

Some explantions for that could be that the Marine armour has to incorporate more features than the SoB armour, or that Astartes are huge so of course the armour looks bigger.

@Wyzilla

Wearing more armor doesn't make it any more protective. That's like saying a set of plate is more protective on a taller guy than on someone who is a lot shorter.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
@Wyzilla

Wearing more armor doesn't make it any more protective. That's like saying a set of plate is more protective on a taller guy than on someone who is a lot shorter.

No, as in thicker armor. Which we also know makes armor a bit more effective in W40K, or else Terminator armor would be pointless. Hence the gigantic pauldrons frequently used as cover and the thick leg armor.



They visibly wear more armor. An Astartes shrunk down to the size of the sister would be wearing more armor than the Sister. This is something pretty easy to see. This means that they have thicker ceramite slabs with plasteel and admantanium under the ceramite coating. Also, saves are gameplay, which is worthless in the actual workings of W40K. A gretchin outside of a WAAGH! will always die from a connecting bolter round, irregardless of what it's save is on the tabletop.

The Space Marine's armor just looks wider rather than thicker. And Pauldrons don't matter much when it comes to protecting you unless you really value your upper arms. It looks to be about the same for the chest for both Sisters and Marines. In fact, Marines are at a disadvantage being so big since they present an easier target.

Weren't you preaching that it's folly to apply reason to the setting, earlier?

Not that I'm saying that I think it is unreasonable, mind you. Besides what I stated before, it's also worth noting that the Sororitas armour was and is bankrolled by the Ecclesiarchy, so of course it can be good.

 Troike wrote:
Weren't you preaching that it's folly to apply reason to the setting, earlier?

Not that I'm saying that I think it is unreasonable, mind you. Besides what I stated before, it's also worth noting that the Sororitas armour was and is bankrolled by the Ecclesiarchy, so of course it can be good.

Yes, but even in a setting that throws logic outside the window, somebody wearing armor out of magic metal will always have less durability than somebody wearing armor with more magic metal, it's simply how it works in the fluff ignoring named character health buffs. Sisters make up for it by being smaller, because it's actually useful to be significantly shorter than an eight foot tall enemy.

I just noticed that the picture you gave, Wyzilla, is photoshopped. I kinda like the edit they did with the sister. Makes her look more professional.

Wasn't it stated in Games Workshop studio material that Sister armor is just as protective as Marine armor?

 TheCustomLime wrote:
I just noticed that the picture you gave, Wyzilla, is photoshopped. I kinda like the edit they did with the sister. Makes her look more professional.

Wasn't it stated in Games Workshop studio material that Sister armor is just as protective as Marine armor?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wasn't it stated in Games Workshop studio material that Sister armor is just as protective as Marine armor?

In just about any place it talks about the gear the Sisters have, yes.

They visibly wear more armor. An Astartes shrunk down to the size of the sister would be wearing more armor than the Sister. This is something pretty easy to see. This means that they have thicker ceramite slabs with plasteel and admantanium under the ceramite coating. Also, saves are gameplay, which is worthless in the actual workings of W40K. A gretchin outside of a WAAGH! will always die from a connecting bolter round, irregardless of what it's save is on the tabletop.

He's also got feth-off huge targets at the tops of his legs and in the crooks of his elbows, not to mention that anyone with a half-way decent scope is going to be able to put one through his eye at 500 meters. His pauldrons are bigger but badly shaped for ballistic deflection... hers are better-designed for that purpose, curved in the right way to deflect shots upward and away from her. So's her helmet, incidentally.

This means that they have thicker ceramite slabs with plasteel and admantanium under the ceramite coating

Actually, it doesn't. It means the armor contains within it all the things it needs to operate in a vacuum, in a toxic environment, to monitor the Astartes' physical health and administer various drugs and such automatically as needed, recycle his waste into a nutrient paste, and all of the other swiss-army-knife functions that SM PA has that Sisters PA does not.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
I kinda like the edit they did with the sister. Makes her look more professional.

And also much more like a Marine, since the guy just copy/pasted the Marine armour on top. Not that I would particularly midn if the boobplate went, but an advantage of it is that it does give the Sisters a unique look, and fits in with their over-the-top gothic aesthetic. If it was replaced with something about as distinct and fitting, I wouldn't mind. Maybe something a bit knightly?

 Troike wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
I kinda like the edit they did with the sister. Makes her look more professional.

And also much more like a Marine, since the guy just copy/pasted the Marine armour on top. Not that I would particularly midn if the boobplate went, but an advantage of it is that it does give the Sisters a unique look, and fits in with their over-the-top gothic aesthetic. If it was replaced with something about as distinct and fitting, I wouldn't mind. Maybe something a bit knightly?

Well, you could always remove the boobplate without removing the unique armour design style.

I mean, the state of SoB is not so bad so that boobplate is particularly important for them to keep.

It's kind of been their thing since Day 1.

Personally, I like that so-goth-it-hurts look for the Sisters. I don't want them suddenly becoming Space Marines with bob cuts.

 Psienesis wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
I just noticed that the picture you gave, Wyzilla, is photoshopped. I kinda like the edit they did with the sister. Makes her look more professional.

Wasn't it stated in Games Workshop studio material that Sister armor is just as protective as Marine armor?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wasn't it stated in Games Workshop studio material that Sister armor is just as protective as Marine armor?

In just about any place it talks about the gear the Sisters have, yes.

They visibly wear more armor. An Astartes shrunk down to the size of the sister would be wearing more armor than the Sister. This is something pretty easy to see. This means that they have thicker ceramite slabs with plasteel and admantanium under the ceramite coating. Also, saves are gameplay, which is worthless in the actual workings of W40K. A gretchin outside of a WAAGH! will always die from a connecting bolter round, irregardless of what it's save is on the tabletop.

He's also got feth-off huge targets at the tops of his legs and in the crooks of his elbows, not to mention that anyone with a half-way decent scope is going to be able to put one through his eye at 500 meters. His pauldrons are bigger but badly shaped for ballistic deflection... hers are better-designed for that purpose, curved in the right way to deflect shots upward and away from her. So's her helmet, incidentally.

This means that they have thicker ceramite slabs with plasteel and admantanium under the ceramite coating

Actually, it doesn't. It means the armor contains within it all the things it needs to operate in a vacuum, in a toxic environment, to monitor the Astartes' physical health and administer various drugs and such automatically as needed, recycle his waste into a nutrient paste, and all of the other swiss-army-knife functions that SM PA has that Sisters PA does not.

The Vacuum bit wouldn't need to take up nearly any of the armor, considering a naked space marine can survive in a vacuum already. Just just store more oxygen, which IIRC the backpack already does. And the pauldrons are more effective than those of the sisters- they raise up when arms are raised, and they frequently save the wearer's life by providing cover for their torso and head. Proper fluff has Space marines frequently firing bolters across their breastplate, maximizing the use of the pauldrons.

(Never understood why people whined about the pauldrons. They're currently at the perfect the size. Certainly better than the old Terminator models.)

Not for long, and not maintain combat effectiveness. The armor will need to have vacuum-seal functions as well as an O2 system, or CO2 scrubbers. His third lung isn't going to last forever.

 Imperial_Arson wrote:
You don't hear about other instances of this much in 40k lore.

Probably because there aren't many reasons to have it happen in stories & background for 40k? It's integral for the Death Korps because it's a massive part of where they come from, so it's a prominent example. GW are not going to list every time something happens or a particular weapon is used in 40k, but are going to give the most prominent or greatest examples. In the example I gave it showed the use of a massive stockpile of atomic weapons, enough to turn the surface of an entire planet into a barren wasteland - not just a small area, not a continent, the entire world of Krieg, so soaked in radiation that you can not walk it's surface if you're not fully covered by clothing designed for that environment. You have to grasp how much atomic weaponry would be needed to do that to an entire planet (I have trouble comprehending it) and soak it so greatly in radiation that it will take many thousands of years until you could walk upon the planets surface without fear of radiation poisoning.

The point is that if a world such as Krieg had such a massive stockpile underneath a single Hive, how prevalent would atomic/chemical weapons across the entire Imperium? The Imperium, I would say, definitely has access to these sorts of weapons and would use them as and when the situation would suit their deployment.

(As a note; don't forget that many of the stories involving the Guard revolve around showing how super-awesomely-amazingly-brilliantly-fantastically incredible the Astartes are - poor Guard/PDF tend to be the pedestal upon which the Astartes grandly stand. So would GW/BL write in the Guard using WMDs when it would make a 'great' plot-hook for Astartes to go in and do the job instead?)

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I mean, the state of SoB is not so bad so that boobplate is particularly important for them to keep.

As I said, that's not the point I'm making. I'm saying that it provides advantages now (very distinct from Marines, fits an aesthetic), but an alternative that also has those features is possible, and I wouldn't mind switching to it if it was cool looking enough.

 Psienesis wrote:
I don't want them suddenly becoming Space Marines with bob cuts.

According to a 2011 interview with Jes Goodwin, neither do they. It sounds like, last they mentioned it. want to keep the same sort of general look with them.

Bio-Chem weapons have been used many, many times. They deployed some ancient chemical weapons in the Third Armageddon War, though they had degraded over time and did not have the desired effectiveness.

However, these WMDs, it should be noted, were in the possession of the planetary governor. Not the IG, not the Astartes, not the PDF, not the Inquisition. One guy had the power to deploy WMDs basically whenever he felt like it, and he wasn't even a military official.

I think NBC weapons are far more available in the 40K setting than are mentioned, simply because it's not an exciting story if an Ork army shows up, you drop some weaponized Round-Up on them, and they all die.

 Imperial_Arson wrote:
You really seem to think there is a high prevalence of atomic weaponry in 40k when there isn't, they don't need it. They have orbital weapons and the Dark Age of Technology advanced way beyond the need for them.

Replace "nuke" with whatever functional equivalent 40k has: a powerful WMD that can be delivered from a safe distance. Whether it's a plasma bomb, orbital lance strike, whatever, the end result is the same as the nuclear ICBM.

Seriously -.- just because IT WOULD MAKE SENSE IN OUR WORLD, doesn't mean it's going to be in 40k. I dont know how hard that can be.

No, it still makes sense in 40k. In fact, it makes more sense in 40k because of the complete absence of moral rules about war and civilian casualties that would get in the way of indiscriminate use of WMDs. You're just forgetting that the Imperium is deliberately portrayed as a bunch of ignorant religious zealots who constantly do stupid things.

 Psienesis wrote:
Not for long, and not maintain combat effectiveness. The armor will need to have vacuum-seal functions as well as an O2 system, or CO2 scrubbers. His third lung isn't going to last forever.

It's not really the third lung that's impressive. Rather the ability to literally seal themselves with mucus. But yeah, they are going to be taking up oxygen, although I wouldn't see why this would be stored in the bulked up portions of their armor. It would be nice if GW started to remind people that power armor is actually power armor, considering that seems to be a fact woefully forgotten by everything save a few Black Library books. Although it's still better than somehow Stormtrooper armor in Star Wars being powered environmental armor that somehow manages to cram air, A/C, battery packs, sensors, etc, into armor that's less than an inch thick.

The thing I see taking up more space than anything is, well, the armor plates, and secondly, the gears, pistons, motors, engines, and reactor that powers the armor and makes it power armor. Which is also part of how I never understood why people think Space Marines are as thick as their armor. Or how Sister armor works.

Actually, it doesn't use gears and pistons, it uses "electrically motivated muscle-fibre bundles" (or however it is they phrase it). This is the stuff that both moves the armor (when it's out of power, it's nearly impossible to move in), and grants the boosted speed strength and all that. Think of it like a sheath designed exactly as a human muscular system that the armor plates are stacked onto and wired into. That's what makes it move (it is also, iirc, what links to the Black Carapace, allowing the SM to wear the armor as if it were his own skin).

 Psienesis wrote:
Actually, it doesn't use gears and pistons, it uses "electrically motivated muscle-fibre bundles" (or however it is they phrase it). This is the stuff that both moves the armor (when it's out of power, it's nearly impossible to move in), and grants the boosted speed strength and all that. Think of it like a sheath designed exactly as a human muscular system that the armor plates are stacked onto and wired into. That's what makes it move (it is also, iirc, what links to the Black Carapace, allowing the SM to wear the armor as if it were his own skin).

When was that added into the fluff? Because all I remember is this from what I think was the RT days. And that sounds suspicious with how nanosuits have become a major part of nerd culture.

A long time now. 3rd edition at least. That's how PA is described in both C:WH and C: Daemonhunters for the SOB and the GK, respectively.

Incidentally, that picture is a good example of why a SM's PA is not better-protective than a Sister's. Look at all the crap he has shoved inside those armor plates! They're not solid sheets of ceramite, they're hollow and packed with all sorts of gubbins.

She is dressed in a solid, ceramite corset, because she doesn't get all those toys.

Yep, it sounds nanosuitey, but it is very true.

 Psienesis wrote:
A long time now. 3rd edition at least. That's how PA is described in both C:WH and C: Daemonhunters for the SOB and the GK, respectively.

Incidentally, that picture is a good example of why a SM's PA is not better-protective than a Sister's. Look at all the crap he has shoved inside those armor plates! They're not solid sheets of ceramite, they're hollow and packed with all sorts of gubbins.

She is dressed in a solid, ceramite corset, because she doesn't get all those toys.

Yeah, but how thick? The one reason why I never paid much attention to the sisters is that they're more weird than the Orks and even Marvel logic is strained with Sisters. Most of the armor is alright, it's just that corset that doesn't make any sense, even compared to W40K's normal lack of sense. Either Sisters look like Barbie dolls or they wear paper. It's why I prefer the conversions like the one in the pic I posted- they don't make Orks look sensible.

I'm not sure we're ever given a thickness to a Sister's PA corset, but from the looks of it one-half to one inch is not out of the question.

There's also the fact to remember that the boob-cups are decorative. Her breasts are not actually in that part of the armor, because she, too, is wrapped in the nanosuity thing that makes her armor move. That might be providing an additional eight or nine inches of solid ceramite stacked over her chest.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Most of the armor is alright, it's just that corset that doesn't make any sense

In my opinion It sort of pokes fun at the 'Nun' fetish. For example, 'Sister Sin';


I'd suggest that as they're modeled/drawn wearing a corset, a garment which rather helps to emphasis a woman's curves (when fitted correctly), it makes their appearance distinctly more 'feminine', probably to make them appeal more visually and to make it obvious that they're women. Or rather, 'nuns with guns'. It's a visual rather than a practical thing.

 Psienesis wrote:
I'm not sure we're ever given a thickness to a Sister's PA corset, but from the looks of it one-half to one inch is not out of the question.

There's also the fact to remember that the boob-cups are decorative. Her breasts are not actually in that part of the armor, because she, too, is wrapped in the nanosuity thing that makes her armor move. That might be providing an additional eight or nine inches of solid ceramite stacked over her chest.

It's still just a waste of space that actually cost the Imperium resources to design, rather than just using Astartes breastplates reduced in size and changed slightly. It's easier to work with what you have rather than build something from scratch.

Still, they're at least better than their HH counterparts. Who wore high heels.

 Sparks_Havelock wrote:
In my opinion It sort of pokes fun at the 'Nun' fetish. For example, 'Sister Sin';

Spoiler:

Eh, but Sister Sin is from RT, which has effectively been overwritten. I don't think we've seen spiked boobplates since then, even.

 Wyzilla wrote:
It's still just a waste of space that actually cost the Imperium resources to design

Ah, but it wasn't the Imperium as we know it that designed it. It was designed when the quite mad Goge Vandire was in charge. Really, he could pretty much do whatever he wanted.

And again, the Sisters are bankrolled by the Ecclesiarchy. They can foot the bill.

In-Universe, it's to demonstrate that the Ecclesiarchy is following the Decree Passive, by maintaining "no men" under arms.

Still, they're at least better than their HH counterparts. Who wore high heels.

The Sisters of Battle are not descendants of the Sisters of Silence, and the Sisters of Battle did not exist in the era of the Heresy.

 Troike wrote:
Eh, but Sister Sin is from RT, which has effectively been overwritten. I don't think we've seen spiked boobplates since then, even.

That wasn't my point (spiked boob-plate comment was a joke). My point was about the 'Nun' fetish underlined, perhaps, by the name 'Sister Sin'?