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Johnnytorrance wrote:
The way I see it, this is coming from someone with a different army. If he can field it, you need to deal with it. So he has a very Air Force heavy list. You gotta find a way to deal with it. Or don't play the guy.

Tailoring isnt always a viable option, might not even be allowed or even possible.

So deal with it is as productive statement as water is wet.

Deal with it. He's a thief.

I don't know if your local IG player has the units or funds to get a bunch of Vendettas and tanks, but Helldrake Spam has lots of trouble tackling mechanized guard armies. I recently beat a list with 3 Helldrakes at 2k points. They didn't even do a whole lot in the game, since I had 2 Vendettas and an Aegis Defense Line + a nice wall of Chimeras full of melta & plasma veterans. Getting in range to hit rear armor of the Chimeras with his flamer templates, meant being in range of basically my whole army. The Chimera heavy flamers would be rather nice against the zombie wave as well!!!


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Also, as other have said, it couldn't do ANYTHING against a new Dark Angel Land Raider Crusader + invulnerable save + bolter salvo spam lists...

Ignore Helldrakes....
One million bolter shots into zombies each round...

Done...

Don't templates always hit side armor?

Vector strikes do.

They do always hit side armor, but Vendettas + Quad Gun + all the firepower coming from the veterans and Chimeras can be enough to overwhelm most flyers.

If everyone at the store told him "sorry, I only brought a 1500, 1850 point list ... guess we can't play tonight" Remember, you guys have the ultimate veto ... to not play him.

Just a quick update, that guy finally lost a game last night against a CSM list in a 2,500 point game.

There was a little irony to it - the other player had 3 Heldrakes and a ton of plague zombies himself. I wasn't there to see it, but it sounds like Heldrake spam is it's own worst enemy.

I would like to go at this list with perhaps 6-12 griffons to handle the plague zombies, 6 vendettas, and 2 infantry platoons. The vendettas can be loaded up with 4 infantry squads with flamers, and 2 platoon command sections with 4 flamers. I think I could fit all that into 2000 points. I probably wouldn't take 12 griffons ( I don't even have 6!) but there are plenty of other great artillery options for the IG.

 techsoldaten wrote:
Just a quick update, that guy finally lost a game last night against a CSM list in a 2,500 point game.

There was a little irony to it - the other player had 3 Heldrakes and a ton of plague zombies himself. I wasn't there to see it, but it sounds like Heldrake spam is it's own worst enemy.

I seriously don't understand how you or the community just don't communicate to him how you he's being a bit of dick. Sounds like your putting a lot of effort into beating a guy that is ultimately not worth it since I wouldn't be surprised if you started regularly beating him and then he just changes his army to another version of cheese. Explain to him the purpose of 40k isn't about the winning, its much more than that.

Also to the guy who keeps blaming the rules for this, seriously the rules don't make doushebags his list sure can be legal, but it isn't fun and fun to me is more important than legal lists.

First, Any troops not in Typhus' detachment would have to be non-Zombie. Still easy to fit 2 min cultist units into the non typhus detachment to handle the requirements though, if that's what he does.


At 2500 points, new Nids could tailor a list to shred a 6 drake dual FOC list:

HQ:
4 Dakka Flyrants, 2 have Hive Commander

Troops:
2 Units of 30 Termigants
2 Tervigons w/Thorax templates

Fast Attack:
4 Crones
2 Harpies w/Stranglethorns


Honestly, not a fun list to play, but if someone is going to bring 6 drakes to the table knowingly, I'm going to counter with something like that. If we go to 3k-3500, ill bring mawlocs to handle the zombies too. Nids can also play the board covering game.. Oval bases available in every FOC slot

Typhus, 6 drakes and 120 zombies clocks in at just under 1800... What else is he using besides that core? It's too easy to list tailor for drakes if you know what is coming, he must fill his army out with other stuff to counter the anti drake units??

Valiant SoR wrote:
I seriously don't understand how you or the community just don't communicate to him how you he's being a bit of dick. Sounds like your putting a lot of effort into beating a guy that is ultimately not worth it since I wouldn't be surprised if you started regularly beating him and then he just changes his army to another version of cheese. Explain to him the purpose of 40k isn't about the winning, its much more than that.

Also to the guy who keeps blaming the rules for this, seriously the rules don't make doushebags his list sure can be legal, but it isn't fun and fun to me is more important than legal lists.

The reason is that many players have mentality that if you refuse the game, it's effectively a game lost, especially when deep down inside you know that you really can't handle that list.

If I had problems against something like that, I'd try to kitbash some Hyperios platforms (you'll probably need a lot of them), simply because it's relatively easy and may be cheap enough in real money, especially if you already have bits that can pass for launchers (magnetized cyclone launchers anyone?). Ofc that "strategy" will fall apart if your FLGS is very demanding when it comes to official GW/FW models and WYSIWYG ("dude, Hyperios launchers are nothing like Cyclones!"). I'm suggesting this because you probably won't be willing to buy a lot of stuff or kitbash complex models just to beat one TFG.

Other than that, you may try to use something AA that can shoot zombies effectively when nothing is in the air. Also using some generic fortifications that can hide your template bearers at least from vector strikes while shooting at drakes is useful.

P.S. Really I think that the reason Helldrake spam is that scary is that a majority of AA in basic codexes is either ineffective or doesn't do anything to win you games that don't have a lot of enemy flyers. Maybe I'm just too inexperienced.

Build the hypios launchers out of drinking straws enclosed by cardboard. Maybe find a guard player who has extra missiles from the heavy weapons teams or just a few spare ones from somewhere to stick in the ends of some of the straws. That will work if they get pissy about cyclones not being big enough.

The easiest way to stop the guy flat out besides refusing to play him is telling him sure, no double force orgs. Perfectly reasonable and it puts the ball in his court so that HE looks like the bad guy if he refuses.

If money doesn't matter and I want to beat a 6 Helldrake list I would field 5 Land Raiders, put all my Troops in there and clear the field with them while the helldrakes do exactly nothing. Do it all the times and this guy wont have fun anymore.

I'm sure that there are enough players with land raiders in your area that they could loan them for that purpose. From the way you tell it, they would be more than happy to.
maybe counts as them all as redeemers. lol

Use the new Stronghold Assault And bring and Imperial Strongpoint. I'm running 2 Bastions and 4 Aegis, all with Quadguns. 550pts worth of This is my airspace. Plus a ton of 4+ cover saves. Throw in an extra 30 pts and make a line of Dangerous Terrain 4 inches in front of the Defence Line and watch the horde of zombies get a couple of rounds of overwatch fire. And this works for anyone..other than Tyranids I guess.

I have to agree with the 'player is the problem' argument.

It's his choice to use the broken parts of the rules, he's not being /forced/ by GW to take a 6 Heldrake double force org, and he's not being /forced/ by GW to give his units firing lines through groups of zombies. That is his judgment to try and play such a cheesy army.

There's a reason not all of us play Heldrakes. Because it's our choice to pick an army we like, not an army who we can exploit. I play Black Tide Templars. I don't do well, but I love watching 40 marines charging up the field at the enemy, and watching the enemy crap themselves about it. He clearly loves beating them into submission with OP and ridiculous army lists, and paying to win.

This is his choice.

 BrotherOfBone wrote:
I have to agree with the 'player is the problem' argument.

It's his choice to use the broken parts of the rules, he's not being /forced/ by GW to take a 6 Heldrake double force org, and he's not being /forced/ by GW to give his units firing lines through groups of zombies. That is his judgment to try and play such a cheesy army.

There's a reason not all of us play Heldrakes. Because it's our choice to pick an army we like, not an army who we can exploit. I play Black Tide Templars. I don't do well, but I love watching 40 marines charging up the field at the enemy, and watching the enemy crap themselves about it. He clearly loves beating them into submission with OP and ridiculous army lists, and paying to win.

This is his choice.

There are two parts to the problem.

The first is the player's attitude/personality. If he's a generally unpleasant person and ruins games through his social skills (lack thereof) than its obviously a player issue.

The second is the list/game. If the reason a game was unpleasant was due to the list, its the game's fault for allowing such a list to be legal.

There are obvious solutions to this exact list which have been stated multiple times now, but blaming the player for taking 6 Heldrakes ignores the real problem. Players making choices to bring strong units is merely a symptom of awful balance, both internally and externally. That's not even touching on whether or not the player question may genuinely love the model and wants as many as possible to represent a concentrated force of them working together.

The only time it should be acceptable to blame the player is through the actions outside of the game or where they break the parameters of the game.

A player with a legal list who plays within the rules and is otherwise friendly and sociable shouldn't be punished and ostracized purely on the contents of their list. Obviously compromises should be struck within the game group, but its not always possible for any number of reasons. Besides, if you expect other players to play by your preferred standards, style, and power level, why shouldn't other people expect the same of you?

nareik wrote:
It will be interesting to see what he does with these nids on the table once he gets his 3 colours on them.
.

18 Carnifexes.

Seriously, it sounds like this guy is king DBag. The obvious answer to the problem is don't play him. Barring that, SM Air Cav, Icarus lascannons and/or Deathwing should put him in his place.

On another note, its the player, not the game. Is GW culpable for allowing this stupid Gak in game? Yes.

Should the player in question hold some responsibility to not literally ruin everyone else's gaming experience by exploiting GWs lack of product quality and generally acting like a horses ass? Double yes.

@Martel Not every gamer is here to powergame. Plenty of players will and do self nerf to ensure both parties have fun playing a game of toy soldiers. I know because people at my FLGS do every weekend. Myself included.

I have had the amusing thought that the Tyranid response to this would be hilarious. You brought 6 Heldrakes? Cute. I brought 6 Crones. Vector Strikes ahoy! If anything I'd favour crones in that match up. That's before you mention the 4 Twin-devourer Flyrants that would be tagging along.

Double force org Eldar and take 12 flyers or 6 with a bunch of the aa forgeworld tanks.

Valiant SoR wrote:
I seriously don't understand how you or the community just don't communicate to him how you he's being a bit of dick.

Yeah, and what is the point of that? People have spent time talking to him, he's set in his ways. You seem to think talking changes people's behaviors.

Valiant SoR wrote:
Sounds like your putting a lot of effort into beating a guy that is ultimately not worth it since I wouldn't be surprised if you started regularly beating him and then he just changes his army to another version of cheese. Explain to him the purpose of 40k isn't about the winning, its much more than that.

Also to the guy who keeps blaming the rules for this, seriously the rules don't make doushebags his list sure can be legal, but it isn't fun and fun to me is more important than legal lists.

Thank you for the feedback. Bottom line is he's a dick / douchebag / whatever name you want to call him, but he's our dick / douchebag / whatever. There is nothing wrong with a discussion about the tactics of taking on 6 Heldrakes.



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 Barrogh wrote:
P.S. Really I think that the reason Helldrake spam is that scary is that a majority of AA in basic codexes is either ineffective or doesn't do anything to win you games that don't have a lot of enemy flyers. Maybe I'm just too inexperienced.

From what I can tell, most people don't bring enough of it.


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BaalSNAFU wrote:

Seriously, it sounds like this guy is king DBag. The obvious answer to the problem is don't play him. Barring that, SM Air Cav, Icarus lascannons and/or Deathwing should put him in his place.

On another note, its the player, not the game. Is GW culpable for allowing this stupid Gak in game? Yes.

Should the player in question hold some responsibility to not literally ruin everyone else's gaming experience by exploiting GWs lack of product quality and generally acting like a horses ass? Double yes.

Yeah, that guy has some serious personality defects. But he's honestly not the worst person who shows up at my FLGS.

Saying that he's ruining other people's games is too strong a way of putting it. It's more that he can't grasp the fun part of 40k, it's just a different concept for him.

Principled stands don't really address the question of how do you beat this otherwise legal list. All respect, but this is not about when to walk away from a game or how to put someone in their place.

Well, you have been given more than a doen ways to handle the issue. It is up to you to decide whether to wor to solve the issue using the effective tools you ave been given or to let it go on. The ball is pretty much in your court.
let us know how it turns out if you choose to solve it.

Use a firestorm Redoubt with something with 2+ armor inside and then you can turn the game into a turkey shoot (See what I did there).

We have given each and every possiblility of what lists and counters to take as well as given him all the possible advice and measures of how to solve the issue. The ball is in his court. Literally, there is no more advice or possible lcounter lists to give him that hasnt already been posted. either he will take action or not.

Something like this comes to mind..

Hq- jetseer with MotLg -155

Troops- 5 avengers in WS SL/SC -195*9= 1755

Heavy vauls support battery with 3 shadow weavers-90

Comes to 2k exactly and has 9 serpents with SL/SC you don't need holo fields because vector strike and flamers ignore them, Good luck winning with no flyers by turn 3 and after that his blobs die fast.

Meching up wouldn't hurt... until the last turn. Medium strength and no bonus to the Damage table makes any given Drake unlikely to destroy a Vehicle. If you have an army with access to plentiful transports, that would solve a great deal of the trouble.

I haven't played a Double FOC game in 6th, the casual store limit is 1850 pts... but as a Guard player, I usually have a Vendetta, a Quad-gun, and a couple of units to "Twin-link" weapons, so even though they're snap-shooting at flyers, they still have a decent chance to hit.

Using a Skyshield Landing pad should hypothetically cut his damage in half, to the units on top, unless that's been changed in the latest releases.

Hmm. take any HQ then use/proxy 6 units of assault cent in LRC/LRR and for troops take whatever and there you have it, his heldrakes cant touch any LRs and you assault cents couldn't care less and as for zombies they be fearless so you get to slaughter them all mwuahahha.

I saw it said earlier, but get people to play 1850 or something.

Or just use anti TFG tactics. Have a tailored list ready and just let people use it over and over against him until things start to sink in. Don't play him with any other list. Make sure it's a boring spammy list too. No exciting moving parts, just a spam of an anti-flyer, and a spam of zombie solution. Skipped too much of the thread to see what army you play, but I'm sure those possibilities have been mentioned.

SURELY, he'll eventually say something about "not wanting to face the same boring list again," at which point you can say NEITHER DO WE!

 Filch wrote:
Omg, is his name dailymiddleborro?

Tell him he should play with the big boys in a tourney.

Just play cron air n zap him out of the air with scythes

I'm not currently playing CSM, I'm glad you think about me a lot though! . Also, it's "Dalymiddleboro" and I don't GT much but I have put away a few RTs!