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I think the 6-helldrake list exemplifies what is wrong with 40k.
- Take the best model in the codex
- Take 6 of that model.

Helldrake is a good unit in its own right, being durable in multiple ways (AV12 when most anti-air is S7, flyer for snap shots, 3 HP, regenerate and ward save) as well as deadly in a large number of ways (moderate combat ability via vector strike, AP3 flamer to kill all except TEQ, with 360* torrent to effectively counter flyer's supposed lack of maneuverability.

Which overall means that it is good against 99% of army lists, while 99% of lists need to be tailored to beat it.

Luckily with Tau I'm in a decent position to beat an army like this - because Riptides and Broadsides suffer from the same 'problem' as helldrakes.
I'd take something like:
5 riptides (Fusion Blasters, Ion Cannon, Skyfire, Interceptor) ~1000pts
3x3 Broadsides, Interceptor. ~750.
Commander w/ PENC, Marker Drones, Iridium Armour
Lots of outflanking Kroot
A few pathfinders
2x Sky Rays

I should be able to make a sizable dent in his lines with first turn shooting. Broadsides alone could take out ~45 zombies on average.
RIptides move up to center field. Don't leave anywhere safe for the bastards to come on.
Turn 2, if I had first turn, I could potentially have WON by now.
4 Helldrakes come on. Each riptide can nearly knock out a helldrake, each skyray takes a helldrae and each broadside squad half a helldrake. He can't hurt anything seriously.
Turn 3, I mop up. High probability ot tabling opponent by this stage as helldrakes with locked velocity fall off the board..


hmm.. really tempted to try this now.

Trasvi wrote:
I think the 6-helldrake list exemplifies what is wrong with 40k.
- Take the best model in the codex
- Take 6 of that model.

Helldrake is a good unit in its own right, being durable in multiple ways (AV12 when most anti-air is S7, flyer for snap shots, 3 HP, regenerate and ward save) as well as deadly in a large number of ways (moderate combat ability via vector strike, AP3 flamer to kill all except TEQ, with 360* torrent to effectively counter flyer's supposed lack of maneuverability.

Which overall means that it is good against 99% of army lists, while 99% of lists need to be tailored to beat it.

Luckily with Tau I'm in a decent position to beat an army like this - because Riptides and Broadsides suffer from the same 'problem' as helldrakes.
I'd take something like:
5 riptides (Fusion Blasters, Ion Cannon, Skyfire, Interceptor) ~1000pts
3x3 Broadsides, Interceptor. ~750.
Commander w/ PENC, Marker Drones, Iridium Armour
Lots of outflanking Kroot
A few pathfinders
2x Sky Rays

I should be able to make a sizable dent in his lines with first turn shooting. Broadsides alone could take out ~45 zombies on average.
RIptides move up to center field. Don't leave anywhere safe for the bastards to come on.
Turn 2, if I had first turn, I could potentially have WON by now.
4 Helldrakes come on. Each riptide can nearly knock out a helldrake, each skyray takes a helldrae and each broadside squad half a helldrake. He can't hurt anything seriously.
Turn 3, I mop up. High probability ot tabling opponent by this stage as helldrakes with locked velocity fall off the board..


hmm.. really tempted to try this now.

Beating cheese with even more cheese just creates an even bigger problem. That's like introducing Cane Toads to take care of Cane Beetles. We all know how that worked out...

I honestly fail to see how the LGS players are failing to beat him with his faildrake list. It's not like he changes it up every game, or tailors his list, he's literally bringing the same list every time.

Spam AA, which is plentiful come start of 2014. If this was 2013, I'd understand this thread, but how difficult is it to come up with a decent AA list post Stronghold Assault with a ground assault element to wipe zombies?

Are you honestly telling me you can't beat a player who looks at the Tyranid codex... and then buys a few models, with the conclusion it's a strong codex?

 Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
I honestly fail to see how the LGS players are failing to beat him with his faildrake list. It's not like he changes it up every game, or tailors his list, he's literally bringing the same list every time.

Spam AA, which is plentiful come start of 2014. If this was 2013, I'd understand this thread, but how difficult is it to come up with a decent AA list post Stronghold Assault with a ground assault element to wipe zombies?

Are you honestly telling me you can't beat a player who looks at the Tyranid codex... and then buys a few models, with the conclusion it's a strong codex?

Exactly. You don't even need a cheesy list at all to beat this. This list is very unbalanced and too easy to make a hard counter.

I only have 3 months of playing experience.

On two occasions I've battled a Helldrake. So far I'm 2-0 blowing it up with my Icarus lascannon as soon as it came on the board.

I understand I got lucky with the damage table list rolling a 6 the first time and a 5+1 the second time.

I stick a support HQ Master of the Forge on the gun, or SGT Tellion.

Overall, I'm not impressed with the Helldrake.

 herpguy wrote:

Trasvi wrote:
I think the 6-helldrake list exemplifies what is wrong with 40k.
- Take the best model in the codex
- Take 6 of that model.

Helldrake is a good unit in its own right, being durable in multiple ways (AV12 when most anti-air is S7, flyer for snap shots, 3 HP, regenerate and ward save) as well as deadly in a large number of ways (moderate combat ability via vector strike, AP3 flamer to kill all except TEQ, with 360* torrent to effectively counter flyer's supposed lack of maneuverability.

Which overall means that it is good against 99% of army lists, while 99% of lists need to be tailored to beat it.

Luckily with Tau I'm in a decent position to beat an army like this - because Riptides and Broadsides suffer from the same 'problem' as helldrakes.
I'd take something like:
5 riptides (Fusion Blasters, Ion Cannon, Skyfire, Interceptor) ~1000pts
3x3 Broadsides, Interceptor. ~750.
Commander w/ PENC, Marker Drones, Iridium Armour
Lots of outflanking Kroot
A few pathfinders
2x Sky Rays

I should be able to make a sizable dent in his lines with first turn shooting. Broadsides alone could take out ~45 zombies on average.
RIptides move up to center field. Don't leave anywhere safe for the bastards to come on.
Turn 2, if I had first turn, I could potentially have WON by now.
4 Helldrakes come on. Each riptide can nearly knock out a helldrake, each skyray takes a helldrae and each broadside squad half a helldrake. He can't hurt anything seriously.
Turn 3, I mop up. High probability ot tabling opponent by this stage as helldrakes with locked velocity fall off the board..


hmm.. really tempted to try this now.

Beating cheese with even more cheese just creates an even bigger problem. That's like introducing Cane Toads to take care of Cane Beetles. We all know how that worked out...

They're now increasing the population of Meat Ants by feeding them cat food to eat the Cane Toads! Apparently all the local fauna just run away when Meat Ants try to eat them but Cane Toads just stop and play dead.... Introduce toad to kill bug > Feed bug to kill toad. Surely there will be no negative consequences this time!

It's not Dalymiddleboro, just FYI.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
I honestly fail to see how the LGS players are failing to beat him with his faildrake list. It's not like he changes it up every game, or tailors his list, he's literally bringing the same list every time.

Spam AA, which is plentiful come start of 2014. If this was 2013, I'd understand this thread, but how difficult is it to come up with a decent AA list post Stronghold Assault with a ground assault element to wipe zombies?

Are you honestly telling me you can't beat a player who looks at the Tyranid codex... and then buys a few models, with the conclusion it's a strong codex?

I think the problem comes down to the fact no one really builds really strong AA armies. 3 Heldrakes is one thing, 6 is another. A few turrets or units with Skyfire is not really the answer.

I bet you could have seen this coming... now he's got his Tyranid army all painted up. It's built around Flyrants and he's 'playtesting' it.

Last weekend, he was in the shop asking people if they were willing to do a doubles match with him playing CSM and Tyranids. You know, play 2 armies at the same time since they can't ally.

 Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
I honestly fail to see how the LGS players are failing to beat him with his faildrake list. It's not like he changes it up every game, or tailors his list, he's literally bringing the same list every time.

Spam AA, which is plentiful come start of 2014. If this was 2013, I'd understand this thread, but how difficult is it to come up with a decent AA list post Stronghold Assault with a ground assault element to wipe zombies?

Are you honestly telling me you can't beat a player who looks at the Tyranid codex... and then buys a few models, with the conclusion it's a strong codex?

If people are failing with a tailored list, that's one problem. But a lot of people hate tailoring lists. The helldrake/zombie combo is a decent power build and will perform decently against a wide range of armies, but you need to build a specifically heavy anti air list to beat it.
One of the easiest ways to make a power list in 40k is to take as many as possible of the best units you can. A normal take-all-comers list might have 3 anti-air units in the list and be able to deal with 1 average flyer per turn. If you take 6 of the toughest flyers in the game, that is near impossible to deal with. Some lists (eg daemons) struggle to deal with even one flyer due to lack of solid anti-air shooting.

Exactly. You don't even need a cheesy list at all to beat this. This list is very unbalanced and too easy to make a hard counter.

Easy to *make* a hard counter... but most lists won't be a hard counter. Thus, the cheese list.

The Tau list is probably actually fairly competitive against most other armies though - riptides and broadsides excel against a wide range of targets, especially if you take them in the formation.

I'd plain ignore drakes. It's never a good thing to focus on killing specific hard stuff. Here you spam lotsa aa and manage to beat 6 drakes winning 11 to 9 but next game you face a greentide with 0 flyers and they stomp you into the ground.
But if you got a few landraiders or a bunch of battlewagonz you can plain ignore most of his army and concentrate on killing zombies. Even if u're a regular sm player. 2 landraiders with vanguard vets and/or honor guards are gona plain annihilate his scoring in a few turns.

Trasvi wrote:

Easy to *make* a hard counter... but most lists won't be a hard counter. Thus, the cheese list.

The Tau list is probably actually fairly competitive against most other armies though - riptides and broadsides excel against a wide range of targets, especially if you take them in the formation.

Yeah, if people had unlimited resources and could just bring whatever they want, I am sure this army would not be so tough to beat. That's not the reality for most people tho. His opponents either don't have the models to counter him, or underestimate the mechanics of this list. He's also bringing Obliterators, preds, Typhus, some Plague Marines, and other units as part of the list, I have just talked about the cheesy parts in this thread.

That guy's record stands at something like 24-2. He lost once against CSMs and once against Tau. In both cases, the mission was The Relic.

How many points is the game? Because at 2000 square after Typhus, 120 Plague Zombies, a bare naked Nurgle Lord (to satisfy the minimum FoC requirements) and 6 Heldrakes he's only got 130 points to spend on anything else.

People at my FLGS usually go 2500 to 3000 points, sometimes higher.

At that point level, 6 Drakes becomes pretty insignificant. I would think that not having the models is the reason why most people cannot beat him.

They're now increasing the population of Meat Ants by feeding them cat food to eat the Cane Toads! Apparently all the local fauna just run away when Meat Ants try to eat them but Cane Toads just stop and play dead.... Introduce toad to kill bug > Feed bug to kill toad. Surely there will be no negative consequences this time!

Wow I can't imagine anything going wrong by intentionally pushing the population of voracious ants! *insert sarcasm*

Storm Ravens, Vendettas, Riptides/Broadsides, having a 2+ armor save, Anything that throws lots of dice (Eldar Wave Serpents), Hydras, the Necron Bakery...

I can understand some Xenos armies (like Orks or Dark Eldar) being annoyed, but even still, Dakkajets can probably deal with them when combined with lootas...

At 2500-3000 how is it so hard to fight this? Goodness me take 6 CMs on bikes with AA and power mauls and just murder them while the drakes fly around and do nothing........

The funniest part of this thread is that a 6 Heldrake is terrible.

I would think of a Necron List based on tesla. Tesla Immortals for troops, then annihilation barges for heavy support. Doomsday arks may be viable, those large blasts will love zombies. Also a nightscythe spam to counter the heldrakes.

For Tyranids, Flyrants, Crones, and possibly even harpies would have a good time against that list. Tyrannofexes with acid spray shieled by gaunt screens would have a great time. Mawlocs would punch holes in the zombie blobs, but are probably not the best thing to take in this situation.
Tying up the zombie blobs with fearless gaunts will help too.

Yeah, thanks everyone for all the ideas.

As stated earlier in the thread, I am looking for ideas about how to deal with this list using non-Chaos armies. It's easy to say just take X unit / fortification / special rule / weapon and you are all good. In practice, tho, results have been wildly different.

@Arbiter - Thank you for the heads up. Necron Bakery - other people have mentioned this, and a couple people at my FLGS are playing what they call a bakery. Can you help me understand what this is specifically?

@Fragile, @Veteran of The Long War - you would think that. Played properly, lists with 6 Heldrakes and 100+ zombies are pretty tough. They tarpit across the board and strike at your backlines while support units take out anything else that matters. It is tough to take out squads of 20 zombies efficiently, I have seen him play in games where none of those units go down.

That Guy is a skilled player who does know how to work the rules to his advantage. Tediously. I have seen him drag out a movement phase over 30 minutes on several occasions. I only mention this because part of his game is about making it very hard to shoot at his units.

@Der Metzgermeister - it's funny you mention Tyranids, That Guy just bought a huge Tyranid army. From all accounts, it's the same thing - lots of cheap ground troops, lots of flying things, and a couple strong HQ units. I haven't seen him play it, but supposedly it's the same strategy. He's 5 - 0 right now with it.

Just to be clear, no one at my FLGS really likes That Guy so much as tolerates him. I would not call him a WAAC player so much as a spam player.

How many Flyrants can you take in a 2k+ point list with Double FOC? And how about crones?

 techsoldaten wrote:
Y I have seen him drag out a movement phase over 30 minutes on several occasions. I only mention this because part of his game is about making it very hard to shoot at his units.

There is no excuse for a 30 minute movement phase. That is just downright dickish and more than enough reason to tell him to take a long walk off a short pier. I have seen Green Tide and Swarm-nid players get their movement phase done in less than a third that time at similar points values. Hells, the 20k a side Apocalypse game I was in a few weeks back had quicker movement phases (in all honesty the longest turn phases were shooting and assault) and that was moving a total of close to five hundred gaunts and hormagaunts across the field, if not more.

 techsoldaten wrote:


How many Flyrants can you take in a 2k+ point list with Double FOC? And how about crones?

You can have 2 Flyrants and 3 Crones/Harpies in a FOC, so that's 4/6 in double FOC for a total of 10 FMC's. However that would be around 1800-1900 points, so you'd struggle to squeeze in mandatory troops unless you were playing 2500+ pts.

I'd actually love to see that Nid list fight his Heldrake spam. That's alot of S6 Skyfire and S8 vector striking, not to mention all the options for massed template attacks to kill zombies. Crones have an S6 flamer that will negate FNP, and Flyrants can take a Fleshbane template weapon for just 10pts. Throw in some double-template Tyrannofexes it would be quite a massacre.

@techsoldaten

The necron air force consists of (normal FOC) 5 x5 necron warriors in night scythes, then 3 MORE night scythes for heavy, with a basic necron lord, pretty simple and cheesy as hell.

I can't believe no one at op's flgs can figure out how to counter 6 heldrakes and spammed zombies. tell them to get acquainted with skyfire, blast templates, and baleflamer stats.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

There is no excuse for a 30 minute movement phase. That is just downright dickish and more than enough reason to tell him to take a long walk off a short pier. I have seen Green Tide and Swarm-nid players get their movement phase done in less than a third that time at similar points values. Hells, the 20k a side Apocalypse game I was in a few weeks back had quicker movement phases (in all honesty the longest turn phases were shooting and assault) and that was moving a total of close to five hundred gaunts and hormagaunts across the field, if not more.

Tell me about it. The guy sweats the placement of every single model. I have never played him, but have had to watch this in action multiple times. Other players will walk out to get refreshments during his movement phases, that's how long they can be.

He plays the game like a typewriter. Everything is mechanical, he's looking at the angles of his troops relative to scenery, he's making sure the units out in front are providing full cover for everything behind them, he's creating focus fire for everything in front of them, he's looking at psychic ranges, etc. He keeps 3 tape measures on him at all times and has no problem with measuring his opponents units to see how far they can get in the next turn. He has been in arguments with other players telling them they can't move as far as they did because he measured it for them during his movement phase. Doesn't matter if he's right or not, it's just plain rude.

But mostly he's positioning units so the enemy has to come to him. The most frustrating part about all this - his army doesn't ever move that far. That Guy is all about having the enemy close enough that he can do something to them the turn the Heldrakes start popping in. His troops don't move too far past his deployment zone most of the game.

And BTW, he NEVER forgets things like checks for damage from warpflame gargoyles, it will not die rolls, boon rolls, etc. If there's something that needs to happen at the top of the turn, he has his dice in hand before you are done with assaults. He's telling opponents all the things that are about to go wrong with their armies the entire game, to the point where other people are forgetting their special stuff. I saw a Tau player forget to shoot with half his troops once there was so much dialog going on.

Don't get me started about what represents a cocked die to him. Unless it's flat, it didn't count. He can't process that a 2 degree incline is not grounds for rerolling a die. It's incredible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 xttz wrote:
You can have 2 Flyrants and 3 Crones/Harpies in a FOC, so that's 4/6 in double FOC for a total of 10 FMC's. However that would be around 1800-1900 points, so you'd struggle to squeeze in mandatory troops unless you were playing 2500+ pts.

I'd actually love to see that Nid list fight his Heldrake spam. That's alot of S6 Skyfire and S8 vector striking, not to mention all the options for massed template attacks to kill zombies. Crones have an S6 flamer that will negate FNP, and Flyrants can take a Fleshbane template weapon for just 10pts. Throw in some double-template Tyrannofexes it would be quite a massacre.

That sounds about right. I haven't seen his new army, but I heard it has about 10 FMCs. He has a couple big HQ units on the ground, and everything else is small bugs.

He's been playing people really hard with them. We do play around 2500 - 3000 points in most games, so I gather all his power in that list is in the air.

Something else maybe you could help me with. A Tau player was complaining to me about an argument he got into with That Guy over markerlights. Are markerlights supposed to ground FMCs? The house rule is yes, That Guy was livid about it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sand.zzz wrote:
I can't believe no one at op's flgs can figure out how to counter 6 heldrakes and spammed zombies. tell them to get acquainted with skyfire, blast templates, and baleflamer stats.

The reasons for this are complex:

- Most people don't build armies to fight massed anti-air. The massed zombies are what they focus on, and they are resilient.

- The people who do aren't getting great results with what they have.

For example: a Space Marine player had a firestorm redoubt with quad lasers along with a dedicated anti-air vehicle. He downed 2 of the Heldrakes, the others tore up the rest of his forces in the backfield. He came into the game thinking the FR is a silver bullet that was just going to sort things with the Heldrakes, it wasn't nearly that effective.

Everyone knows That Guy's list is a problem but he still gets away with winning. He has lost 2 games since I started this thread, but he's probably won 8 others.

My most effective counter to Heldrakes is my Punisher Vulture; I've only had to fight a three-Heldrake list, praise be to the Emperor, but I downed two with the Vulture and the last got hit with a lucky shot in the behind with a grenade launcher and exploded.

Spamming AA isn't necessarily going to help since the Heldrakes and the zombie horde are focused on air to ground (unless he's foregoing the baleflamer for the gun, any word on the weapon distribution amongst the Heldrakes?); I doubt this list would have an easy time with Flyer-heavy Necrons or Guard (my Punisher Vulture will reliably down two flyers a game with Vector Dancer to get into their rear arc), or Space Marines for that matter. The zombies aren't much of a problem for Elysians if you take out the Heldrakes, drop enough MRP templates on them and they will go down.

The biggest problem with fighting this list is that you're probably going to have to throw a lot of money at your army to down it.

 techsoldaten wrote:

Tell me about it. The guy sweats the placement of every single model. I have never played him, but have had to watch this in action multiple times. Other players will walk out to get refreshments during his movement phases, that's how long they can be.

He plays the game like a typewriter. Everything is mechanical, he's looking at the angles of his troops relative to scenery, he's making sure the units out in front are providing full cover for everything behind them, he's creating focus fire for everything in front of them, he's looking at psychic ranges, etc. He keeps 3 tape measures on him at all times and has no problem with measuring his opponents units to see how far they can get in the next turn. He has been in arguments with other players telling them they can't move as far as they did because he measured it for them during his movement phase. Doesn't matter if he's right or not, it's just plain rude.

But mostly he's positioning units so the enemy has to come to him. The most frustrating part about all this - his army doesn't ever move that far. That Guy is all about having the enemy close enough that he can do something to them the turn the Heldrakes start popping in. His troops don't move too far past his deployment zone most of the game.

And BTW, he NEVER forgets things like checks for damage from warpflame gargoyles, it will not die rolls, boon rolls, etc. If there's something that needs to happen at the top of the turn, he has his dice in hand before you are done with assaults. He's telling opponents all the things that are about to go wrong with their armies the entire game, to the point where other people are forgetting their special stuff. I saw a Tau player forget to shoot with half his troops once there was so much dialog going on.

Don't get me started about what represents a cocked die to him. Unless it's flat, it didn't count. He can't process that a 2 degree incline is not grounds for rerolling a die. It's incredible.

You know, up until you mentioned Heldrakes, I thought you might be talking about me. Where do you guys play at? Other than the 'telling you what you're doing wrong tactically' thing, sounds like someone I'd like to get a game in with.

In all seriousness, although I would prefer a careful, measured game where both opponents are trying to win, and are playing competitively, I can definitely understand how it can be incredibly frustrating to show up for a casual/fluffy game and not be able to get the other guy to do anything other than hardcore competition all the time.

I guess I'm confused on a couple of the points, though. How is not forgetting must-occur events a bad thing? Or did I misunderstand? (A complete possibility.) And I TOTALLY agree with him on the die rolls. I've seen too many opponents who decide that slanted dice are a little TOO cocked when it's a bad roll, but perfectly fine when it's a good roll. Letting the only rolls that count be perfectly flat rolls on the open table solves that particular shenanigan.

Jimsolo 571387 6559350 wrote:
I guess I'm confused on a couple of the points, though. How is not forgetting must-occur events a bad thing? Or did I misunderstand? (A complete possibility.) And I TOTALLY agree with him on the die rolls. I've seen too many opponents who decide that slanted dice are a little TOO cocked when it's a bad roll, but perfectly fine when it's a good roll. Letting the only rolls that count be perfectly flat rolls on the open table solves that particular shenanigan.

+1
Unless a dice lands entirely flat on open field, it's cocked. Screwing around with "It's not cocked because it's a 6", "Its not cocked because another die won't slide off the top" is just frustrating and wastes everyone's time.

Trasvi wrote:

Jimsolo 571387 6559350 wrote:
I guess I'm confused on a couple of the points, though. How is not forgetting must-occur events a bad thing? Or did I misunderstand? (A complete possibility.) And I TOTALLY agree with him on the die rolls. I've seen too many opponents who decide that slanted dice are a little TOO cocked when it's a bad roll, but perfectly fine when it's a good roll. Letting the only rolls that count be perfectly flat rolls on the open table solves that particular shenanigan.

+1
Unless a dice lands entirely flat on open field, it's cocked. Screwing around with "It's not cocked because it's a 6", "Its not cocked because another die won't slide off the top" is just frustrating and wastes everyone's time.

Best strategy? Roll into a spare box. Dice don't escape, they don't land on terrain, and they almost never land in a debatable position.

 techsoldaten wrote:


Something else maybe you could help me with. A Tau player was complaining to me about an argument he got into with That Guy over markerlights. Are markerlights supposed to ground FMCs? The house rule is yes, That Guy was livid about it.

I can't see anything in the rules to prevent it. Markerlights are shooting attacks, and shooting attacks cause Grounding Checks. It's just as dumb as lasguns grounding something like a Harridan they can't even wound, but hey that's 40k.

 Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
I honestly fail to see how the LGS players are failing to beat him with his faildrake list. It's not like he changes it up every game, or tailors his list, he's literally bringing the same list every time.

Spam AA, which is plentiful come start of 2014. If this was 2013, I'd understand this thread, but how difficult is it to come up with a decent AA list post Stronghold Assault with a ground assault element to wipe zombies?

Are you honestly telling me you can't beat a player who looks at the Tyranid codex... and then buys a few models, with the conclusion it's a strong codex?

Couldnt agree more.

Heldrakes arent all that. I dont understand why people are so terrified of them. Unless you're running an all power armour, all footslogging marine list, 6 heldrakes is incredibly inefficient list design. Just take some AA. Proxy if you have to, there's *loads* off stuff out there now that'll blow them out of the sky with interceptor.

Or just ignore his heldrakes and beat him on the ground. 6 Heldrakes is not a strong list. Even in the heyday of heldrakes I think 6 would have been far too many to be efficient.