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Obviously the Space Marine is better, but how better?

Better in close combat, better armor, tougher... access to different transports and better weapons too. But he's still dead if he lets a squad of stormtroopers shoot him.

Well from a stealth perspective I think Storm Troopers are far better. Smaller, arent walking coffins and their guns are silent.

Storm Troopers have the gear to fight in most environments and deal with most threats. Storm Troopers also have rechargeable ammo so can survive longer being isolated (bar food). Although i imagine a space marine being so large he probably needs a lot of food, much like a cow.

Overall i think that Storm Troopers are better for most purposes especially guerrilla style fighting and scouting type operations and so on.

Precisely 1233.28 times better.

Inquisitorial Storm Troopers don't exist.

 Swastakowey wrote:
Although i imagine a space marine being so large he probably needs a lot of food, much like a cow.

The best line I will read all day.

Doesn't the marines power armour process his waste into food for him?

7. Its 7.

.....isn't it?

Munitorium Stormtroopers. Inquisition Stormtroopers are stricken from the records, like most Inquisition stuff. Need to know basis.

Munitorium Stormtroopers however... They are the best known. There are less Stormtroopers than there are Space Marines. Only ten thousand MS in the galaxy, constantly being replaced. Sure, there are millions of Kasrkin, and billions of Grenadiers, but only ten thousand soldiers that can truly be called Stormtroopers.

And baby they'll rock your world or something.

Silly GW and their scale problems, 10 000 is ridiculous...

But squad of them will kill a marine.

A squad of them will kill more than one marine, more likely than not.

If they get the drop on them-- which is quite likely as that is what they specialize in-- they could probably decimate an entire squad, if not wipe it out utterly.

That's a very rare and borderline laughable scenario though and there are numerous tactical situations where they would still be at a disadvantage against a full squad of marines.

As has been discussed at length in other threads, marines aren't usually stood around on a planet doing nothing, standing around in the open.

Secondly, the marines have higher sensory functions and technology in their power armour so they are harder to 'sneak' up on, and the facilities they will be in are probably quite secure.

I also assume as they tend to specialise in drop assaults themselves, they probably cover counter tactics at some point.

And finally, range is key for the storm troopers, they need to be close enough to be able to fire with speed and to aid with killing shots yet not be close enough so that the marines can close the distance, because then they are going to die.

The only real possibility I can think of a storm trooper squad taking out a marine squad is if the marines are engaged in battle already and they drop in behind the marines, without the marines knowing and take them out quickly whilst the marines are already occupied/facing the other direction.


The storm troopers would kill marines, but killing off the whole marine squad would be a big achievement that I don't think they would accomplish without high casualties themselves and in very few circumstances.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
That's a very rare and borderline laughable scenario though

Rare, maybe, but only because Space Marines themselves are laughably rare; simply put, in the overwhelming majority (such a high number to be only insignificantly smaller than 100%) of battles, Space Marines are non-entities who don't participate. Laughable though? Not really.

Well, since marines are so rare, whole squads of them are ultra rare, thus, a squad of storm troopers (who are super ultra very rare) getting the drop on them, is so super ultra mega rare that I could probably win the lottery multiple times before it happened, and then when you take into account the outcome that the inferior storm troopers wipe the marine squad out, those odd are so super ultra mega grey knights rare, it is in fact laughable.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Well, since marines are so rare, whole squads of them are ultra rare

No, statistics doesn't work like that.

Space Marines are most commonly deployed as a squad of either five or ten marines. Therefor, while Space Marines are rare, you're most likely to see them in one of these group sizes, unless they have already taken losses, or they're deploying a larger force.

Stormtrooper standard issue weapons (going by the current IG dex) ignore marine armor. Marine standard weapons do not ignore stormtrooper armor. I would think that in an ambush, the stormtroopers would have an advantage over the marines.

If they both fire 10 shots, they both inflict 2.222 unsaved wounds.

So, yeah.... Not a very good argument for them winning.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Well, since marines are so rare, whole squads of them are ultra rare, thus, a squad of storm troopers (who are super ultra very rare) getting the drop on them, is so super ultra mega rare that I could probably win the lottery multiple times before it happened, and then when you take into account the outcome that the inferior storm troopers wipe the marine squad out, those odd are so super ultra mega grey knights rare, it is in fact laughable.

This just sank your credibility for fluff knowledge.... Marines almost exclusively operate in squads.

As for feasibility, it partly depends on the author. It's basically two very elite forces, one of which is better equipped with gear than the other, fighting. It's to an extent up in the air, with the edge going to the marines due to better overall gear and 'superhuman' abilities from their implants and the changes they undergo to become marines.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
If they both fire 10 shots, they both inflict 2.222 unsaved wounds.

So, yeah.... Not a very good argument for them winning.

Game stats =/= background.

In game, if a grot gets hit by a lascannon it has a 1/6 chance of surviving unscathed. If a grot gets hit by a lascannon in background, then it gets atomized.

You are also not factoring in that the marines would be caught in a crossfire and that the troopers would be lining up their shots to hit the marines' weakest points.

 Melissia wrote:

If they get the drop on them-- which is quite likely as that is what they specialize in-- they could probably decimate an entire squad, if not wipe it out utterly.

With AP3 weapons I'd figure they'd kill a little more than 1/10th of the squad

Space Marines are an elite rapid deploy shock force meant to devastate the enemy in short order. Stormtroopers are an elite force that specializes in assault, covert ops and what have you. They fullfill different tactical roles and each have their place.

I never got the point of "Are Space Marines better than x?" threads. They always come down to one side saying, "In certain situations yes and in others no" and the other saying, "No, Space Marines are the greatest warriors ever!".

Well the thread even started with "obviously Marines are better", so this one didn't even have to wait to get there.

Rihgu wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

If they get the drop on them-- which is quite likely as that is what they specialize in-- they could probably decimate an entire squad, if not wipe it out utterly.

With AP3 weapons I'd figure they'd kill a little more than 1/10th of the squad

Aha. Cute.

Rihgu wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

If they get the drop on them-- which is quite likely as that is what they specialize in-- they could probably decimate an entire squad, if not wipe it out utterly.

With AP3 weapons I'd figure they'd kill a little more than 1/10th of the squad

Heh

 troa wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Well, since marines are so rare, whole squads of them are ultra rare, thus, a squad of storm troopers (who are super ultra very rare) getting the drop on them, is so super ultra mega rare that I could probably win the lottery multiple times before it happened, and then when you take into account the outcome that the inferior storm troopers wipe the marine squad out, those odd are so super ultra mega grey knights rare, it is in fact laughable.

This just sank your credibility for fluff knowledge.... Marines almost exclusively operate in squads.

As for feasibility, it partly depends on the author. It's basically two very elite forces, one of which is better equipped with gear than the other, fighting. It's to an extent up in the air, with the edge going to the marines due to better overall gear and 'superhuman' abilities from their implants and the changes they undergo to become marines.

I know that marines almost always operate in squads, I was around when they only operated in squads of 5 or 10. though, who said I was talking about imperium marines? CSm's do operate alone, as overloads over lost and damned.

Though we will talk in the sense of imperium marines, 1,000,000 marines, spread over 1,000,000+ worlds, having a squad of 10 on a planet is very rare, then when you take into account 10,000 Stormtroopers spread over the same amount of worlds operating in a squad that gets into a situation where they can suprise a squad of marines is laughable.


And my final point is, my fluff knowledge is relatively extensive, only because I've been in the game nearing 20 years, though, it's not something I am offended about when someone is more knowledgable than me and I wouldn't say my knowledge is very high either, I'll happily be proven wrong to be honest, being wrong is the best way to learn what is right.


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 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
If they both fire 10 shots, they both inflict 2.222 unsaved wounds.

So, yeah.... Not a very good argument for them winning.

Game stats =/= background.

In game, if a grot gets hit by a lascannon it has a 1/6 chance of surviving unscathed. If a grot gets hit by a lascannon in background, then it gets atomized.

You are also not factoring in that the marines would be caught in a crossfire and that the troopers would be lining up their shots to hit the marines' weakest points.

Oh, I agree that tabletop doesn't transcribe to the background, but the post I was responding too was a tabletop justification that I countered with it. Though I don't believe fluff wise either are actually what would happen.

As I've sad before, an AP3 unsaved wound isn't necessarily a kill, the marine could just be incapacitated, and the exact same happen in reverse with the marines taking out storm troopers.

Odds are simply that, odds. The things with one in a billion odds still happen, you have to remember that. "Hey, it's rare" does not mean it cannot or does not happen.

Of course, it's not impossible that storm troopers could surprise and take out a whole squad of marines, they could even do it with taking 0 casualties in return, but the odds of the marines countering the attack and wiping the storm troopers out are higher, so more likely.

 troa wrote:
Well the thread even started with "obviously Marines are better", so this one didn't even have to wait to get there.

The point of the thread was to discuss HOW MUCH better.

How much better is Vegeta than Goku?

This is not DBZ. There's no power levels here. VS debates don't make a lot of sense to me. 'Marine most likely wins.' Move on.

Full squads, marines most likely win, full squad of Stormtroopers vs a marine, they'll win almost all the time.