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 Imperial_Arson wrote:

 troa wrote:
Well the thread even started with "obviously Marines are better", so this one didn't even have to wait to get there.

The point of the thread was to discuss HOW MUCH better.

Over 9000.

You might as well ask how much better a tiger tank is compared to a Sherman.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
How much better is Vegeta than Goku?

Over eight thousand times, obviously. Possibly even over nine thousand, given how well he fought against Bills without the aid of the latest transformation du jour of the year.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Imperial_Arson wrote:

 troa wrote:
Well the thread even started with "obviously Marines are better", so this one didn't even have to wait to get there.

The point of the thread was to discuss HOW MUCH better.

Over 9000.

You might as well ask how much better a tiger tank is compared to a Sherman.

You can look at casualty numbers from World War 2 to get a rough idea of how many Shermans you'd have to throw at a Tiger tank to destroy it reliably. From that you could extrapolate an approximate guess of how much better a Tiger was in comparison to a Sherman. Obviously crew skill and training will account for some discrepancy, but it's a good way to frame arguments. Last time I checked my own history books, old documentaries and the like the number was near 10 to 1, sometimes less, sometimes more. Not very accurate from a modern stand point, but as the casualty numbers for WW2 will not be changing any times soon, nor will the German or American Govt's be making any more of the respective tanks, it gives us a good picture. I think this would be a good way to frame the discussion.

How many Stormtrooper squads would be required to assure a kill on a Space Marine squad in any given battle? Assuming pitched battle and squad sizes of 10 I believe that it would take 2 full squads of storm-troopers to -reliably- take out one full squad of marines to a man. So I would wager a fluffy space marine is worth roughly two storm troopers. This is an approximate number as many other factors could contribute to the result being skewed to favor one side or the other. I'd say as much as a .5, or 'half-squad', fluctuation. Meaning a single space marine could be worth anywhere from 1.5 to 2.5 stormtroopers.

I realize this isn't the be all end all way to measure this sort of thing, but at least it gives people parameters within which they can argue with meaning.

Inquisitorial stormtroopers would be more loyal towards the inquisitor then most marines (apart from the obvious deathwatch or greyknights) because a stormtroops sole loyalty is to the inquisition and the inquisitor he is assigned to, while a space marine's loyalty will ALWAYS be divided between his chapter and the inquisitor he is protecting. Also, in the act of infiltration a space marine isn't exactly unassuming.

 gpfunk wrote:
You can look at casualty numbers from World War 2 to get a rough idea.

True... but it's not the whole truth when you consider the two fought in totally different ways. German fighter aces had some really sick kill counts, but then again they fought total war for six years straight while americans were sent back home to train new pilots after so many sorties. As I recall from listening to one of the German aces it was war, war, war with no chance to train his new fresh wingmen - they either died or learned on the job in the first few missions.

Spetulhu wrote:

 gpfunk wrote:
You can look at casualty numbers from World War 2 to get a rough idea.

True... but it's not the whole truth when you consider the two fought in totally different ways. German fighter aces had some really sick kill counts, but then again they fought total war for six years straight while americans were sent back home to train new pilots after so many sorties. As I recall from listening to one of the German aces it was war, war, war with no chance to train his new fresh wingmen - they either died or learned on the job in the first few missions.

Similar to this discussion. Space Marines and Inquisitorial Stormtroopers fight in extremely different ways BUT people still want to compare them. The method of comparison I've worked out here is not ideal, but it at least allows people to argue in a meaningful way, as I've said before.

I also mentioned that the crew of any given tank would adjust the scores in various scenarios, but that, on average, you can expect a Tiger to kill ten Shermans. It's just a bunch of approximations, but it allows for comparison where generally none could be drawn.

Hang on. A bunch of brightly coloured marines who are unnaturally large (people have been turned down in the military for being too large) whose entrance (a mini meteor that bursts into the atmosphere then hits the ground) is in no way stealthy, their weapons fire rocket propelled explosives (you will hear that shot miles away) and well everything about them is very impractical. Just like armored knights (except with odd blatantly off the top of their head excuses for extreme mobility) they have some huge flaws. The armour is so thick that the joins need to be a lot bigger, meaning their weak spots are much easier to hit.

The storm troopers adapt to each situation. Camo, what gear to take and how to land. Heck they may parachute so far from the target just to prepare their attack and keep the element of surprise (which marines will realistically be unable to do) and go from there.

What happens when then enemy are in caves that are a tight fit? Who will be more adversely affected by mud? If a drop ship is hit the surviving storm troopers can bail out, can marines do the same with their drop pod? I have already mentioned the marine/cow food problem, but if the storm troopers are anything like Japanese soldiers in WW2 im fairly sure they could enough food to last a long time. Ammo is less of a problem for storm troopers than Marines as already mentioned.

I think that Marines are too impractical to be useful in many situations. I dont hate marines, in fact i just purchased my first box of them (although some epic scibor ones). They have potential to be cool fluff wise but not when all their flaws are covered up by childish "but they can do this, and this, and this and so on."

So in practicality, overall usefulness and speciality i think storm troopers win. But Marines when supported by their tanks, navy and the imperial guard are probably more devastating.

 Swastakowey wrote:
Well from a stealth perspective I think Storm Troopers are far better. Smaller, arent walking coffins and their guns are silent.

Storm Troopers have the gear to fight in most environments and deal with most threats. Storm Troopers also have rechargeable ammo so can survive longer being isolated (bar food). Although i imagine a space marine being so large he probably needs a lot of food, much like a cow.

Overall i think that Storm Troopers are better for most purposes especially guerrilla style fighting and scouting type operations and so on.

Astartes survive longer than Stormtroopers- they can eat anything, even if it's poisoned. Otherwise they have near complete control of their metabolism and can digest nearly anything. An Astartes beating nids to death with the butt of his bolter for food if he's cut off from Imperial forces is completely possible. Hell, IIRC, so long as they force themselves into coma, they can survive in the vacuum of space like they're a fething Water Bear.

And Astartes can also be completely silent. Night Lords and the Raven Guard especially are renowned for their stealth ambushes and general sneakyness.
(Might have something to do maybe with the magnetic soles of their armored boots.)

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
Well from a stealth perspective I think Storm Troopers are far better. Smaller, arent walking coffins and their guns are silent.

Storm Troopers have the gear to fight in most environments and deal with most threats. Storm Troopers also have rechargeable ammo so can survive longer being isolated (bar food). Although i imagine a space marine being so large he probably needs a lot of food, much like a cow.

Overall i think that Storm Troopers are better for most purposes especially guerrilla style fighting and scouting type operations and so on.

Astartes survive longer than Stormtroopers- they can eat anything, even if it's poisoned. Otherwise they have near complete control of their metabolism and can digest nearly anything. An Astartes beating nids to death with the butt of his bolter for food if he's cut off from Imperial forces is completely possible. Hell, IIRC, so long as they force themselves into coma, they can survive in the vacuum of space like they're a fething Water Bear.

And Astartes can also be completely silent. Night Lords and the Raven Guard especially are renowned for their stealth ambushes and general sneakyness.
(Might have something to do maybe with the magnetic soles of their armored boots.)

Im not ripping into you dude so dont take offence but have you heard kids argue? "my guy can shoot lasers!" then "well yea my guy can block lasers then shoot plasma.." and the argument goes on forever. Thats where i start to give up because the space marines are based on a childs argument. Thats the problem with space marines. No matter what you say there is some fluff somewhere that has something to counter it.


The way i see it is the astartes are like those Giant Swiss army knives with have hundreds of uses, but they are just too big and annoying to be practical at all. But i am very sure there is some fluff that says that statement is wrong...

I don't think marines tend to fight in caves too much though, so I can see your point but it wouldn't be such a problem for them, also if they were fighting in a cave then the foe they are fighting are probably of roughly similar dimensions or even larger than them so again they aren't going to get stuck.

Astartes also excel in close quarter fighting in enclosed spaces, you wouldn't want a storm trooper performing a kill mission against space marines in a ship or facility in orbit as astartes can fight effectively in a vacuum, and their armour helps them not suffer the effects of shrapnel etc that occurs when a fire fight happens in such locations.

In a jungle though, providing the astartes don't pick up that they are been hunted (autosenses fail), then yes a storm trooper squad could surprise them and maybe outfox them, and mud etc that can occur in a jungle would be an issue for them, though... I have a feeling that in such a circumstance the astartes would leave it up to the guard or their scouts due to said limitations and when they find their target, drop in to steal the glory.

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
Well from a stealth perspective I think Storm Troopers are far better. Smaller, arent walking coffins and their guns are silent.

Storm Troopers have the gear to fight in most environments and deal with most threats. Storm Troopers also have rechargeable ammo so can survive longer being isolated (bar food). Although i imagine a space marine being so large he probably needs a lot of food, much like a cow.

Overall i think that Storm Troopers are better for most purposes especially guerrilla style fighting and scouting type operations and so on.

Astartes survive longer than Stormtroopers- they can eat anything, even if it's poisoned. Otherwise they have near complete control of their metabolism and can digest nearly anything. An Astartes beating nids to death with the butt of his bolter for food if he's cut off from Imperial forces is completely possible. Hell, IIRC, so long as they force themselves into coma, they can survive in the vacuum of space like they're a fething Water Bear.

And Astartes can also be completely silent. Night Lords and the Raven Guard especially are renowned for their stealth ambushes and general sneakyness.
(Might have something to do maybe with the magnetic soles of their armored boots.)

Im not ripping into you dude so dont take offence but have you heard kids argue? "my guy can shoot lasers!" then "well yea my guy can block lasers then shoot plasma.." and the argument goes on forever. Thats where i start to give up because the space marines are based on a childs argument. Thats the problem with space marines. No matter what you say there is some fluff somewhere that has something to counter it.


The way i see it is the astartes are like those Giant Swiss army knives with have hundreds of uses, but they are just too big and annoying to be practical at all. But i am very sure there is some fluff that says that statement is wrong...

Yeah, vastly. With the stealth thing though, I like to think it results from Imperial buildings being made out of metal, allowing space marines to scurry across walls and ceilings like they're a fly with magnetic seals. Which also explains why nobody sees them. Looking the wrong way.
(They probably would even be able to move across it with their entire bodies, not just their feat. They're constantly mention to have magnetic seals on their backs and thighs to slap weapons onto.)

And no, plasma would penetrate with little effort. While IG guns are crappier copies of Astartes and Mechanicum weapons for them stealing all the good toys, it'd penetrate with a shot or two. It's the Hellguns/Hotshot that probably wouldn't penetrate on the first hit/not be lethal if it did.

Also, having read some Marine books and having read some Inquisitor books such as Eisenhorn and Ravenor is can safely say that some of the Inquisitors 'associates' he keeps at his side such as Nyle and Mendas are so epic that they make Space Marines with their fancy guns and massive pauldrons look down in disgrace. An Inquisitorial retinue isn't just for combat but for the duties of an inquisitor in general. Space Marines are trained with a shoot first ask questions never attitude, how can the Inquisitor 'politely ask' a captured heretic where his mates are if all of them have bolter holes in their chests?

Long story short, inquisitorial stormtroops have balls of adamantium. It's debatable If Marines have balls at all.

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
Also, having read some Marine books and having read some Inquisitor books such as Eisenhorn and Ravenor is can safely say that some of the Inquisitors 'associates' he keeps at his side such as Nyle and Mendas are so epic that they make Space Marines with their fancy guns and massive pauldrons look down in disgrace. An Inquisitorial retinue isn't just for combat but for the duties of an inquisitor in general. Space Marines are trained with a shoot first ask questions never attitude, how can the Inquisitor 'politely ask' a captured heretic where his mates are if all of them have bolter holes in their chests?

Depends on the Chapter. Ultramarines, Fists, and the Dark Angels would probably be alright with it, while Chapters like the Black Templars would be mortified at such a prospect. Or if they're the Flesh Tearers, eating said heretic and any of the retinue that took offense at it.

And that's the conflict with the new fluff and why it is rubbish, space marines were always psychopaths barely on a leash who would pull the trigger without looking at an enemies face, and now they are these noble space nights that seem to have more honour yet it conflicts with the arrogance that still surrounds them.

Dark Angels would interrogate as part old fluff, but only the fallen, every other enemy was rewarded with bolter rounds, bar certain extremely special circumstances, mainly involving a crack pot inquisitor with a plan.

Storm troopers would be perform capture missions though, you can just imagine marines killing their target by accident....

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
And that's the conflict with the new fluff and why it is rubbish, space marines were always psychopaths barely on a leash who would pull the trigger without looking at an enemies face, and now they are these noble space nights that seem to have more honour yet it conflicts with the arrogance that still surrounds them.

Dark Angels would interrogate as part old fluff, but only the fallen, every other enemy was rewarded with bolter rounds, bar certain extremely special circumstances, mainly involving a crack pot inquisitor with a plan.

Storm troopers would be perform capture missions though, you can just imagine marines killing their target by accident....

No, most would restrain themselves. It just depends on the Chapter and where the orders come from. Be orders outside those of their chapter, friendly chapters, or the HLOT- are 'suggestions'.

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
Well from a stealth perspective I think Storm Troopers are far better. Smaller, arent walking coffins and their guns are silent.

Storm Troopers have the gear to fight in most environments and deal with most threats. Storm Troopers also have rechargeable ammo so can survive longer being isolated (bar food). Although i imagine a space marine being so large he probably needs a lot of food, much like a cow.

Overall i think that Storm Troopers are better for most purposes especially guerrilla style fighting and scouting type operations and so on.

Astartes survive longer than Stormtroopers- they can eat anything, even if it's poisoned. Otherwise they have near complete control of their metabolism and can digest nearly anything. An Astartes beating nids to death with the butt of his bolter for food if he's cut off from Imperial forces is completely possible. Hell, IIRC, so long as they force themselves into coma, they can survive in the vacuum of space like they're a fething Water Bear.

And Astartes can also be completely silent. Night Lords and the Raven Guard especially are renowned for their stealth ambushes and general sneakyness.
(Might have something to do maybe with the magnetic soles of their armored boots.)

Im not ripping into you dude so dont take offence but have you heard kids argue? "my guy can shoot lasers!" then "well yea my guy can block lasers then shoot plasma.." and the argument goes on forever. Thats where i start to give up because the space marines are based on a childs argument. Thats the problem with space marines. No matter what you say there is some fluff somewhere that has something to counter it.


The way i see it is the astartes are like those Giant Swiss army knives with have hundreds of uses, but they are just too big and annoying to be practical at all. But i am very sure there is some fluff that says that statement is wrong...

you keep using the "kids arguing" comparison. except it's wrong. kids arguing tend to make that type of stuff up on the spot to counter someone else's. this isn't the case with Marines. the Capabilities of Marines are well eistablished. what they can and cannot do, are well eistablished.

if you say "ohh Marines would have trouble in these situations" and someone replies "well they can do this and this and this which minimizes or removes those issues" that's not childish building up, that's noting that GW has already addressed this.

now are space marines too big for some roles? proably. but less so then you might think.

BrianDavion wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
Well from a stealth perspective I think Storm Troopers are far better. Smaller, arent walking coffins and their guns are silent.

Storm Troopers have the gear to fight in most environments and deal with most threats. Storm Troopers also have rechargeable ammo so can survive longer being isolated (bar food). Although i imagine a space marine being so large he probably needs a lot of food, much like a cow.

Overall i think that Storm Troopers are better for most purposes especially guerrilla style fighting and scouting type operations and so on.

Astartes survive longer than Stormtroopers- they can eat anything, even if it's poisoned. Otherwise they have near complete control of their metabolism and can digest nearly anything. An Astartes beating nids to death with the butt of his bolter for food if he's cut off from Imperial forces is completely possible. Hell, IIRC, so long as they force themselves into coma, they can survive in the vacuum of space like they're a fething Water Bear.

And Astartes can also be completely silent. Night Lords and the Raven Guard especially are renowned for their stealth ambushes and general sneakyness.
(Might have something to do maybe with the magnetic soles of their armored boots.)

Im not ripping into you dude so dont take offence but have you heard kids argue? "my guy can shoot lasers!" then "well yea my guy can block lasers then shoot plasma.." and the argument goes on forever. Thats where i start to give up because the space marines are based on a childs argument. Thats the problem with space marines. No matter what you say there is some fluff somewhere that has something to counter it.


The way i see it is the astartes are like those Giant Swiss army knives with have hundreds of uses, but they are just too big and annoying to be practical at all. But i am very sure there is some fluff that says that statement is wrong...

you keep using the "kids arguing" comparison. except it's wrong. kids arguing tend to make that type of stuff up on the spot to counter someone else's. this isn't the case with Marines. the Capabilities of Marines are well eistablished. what they can and cannot do, are well eistablished.

if you say "ohh Marines would have trouble in these situations" and someone replies "well they can do this and this and this which minimizes or removes those issues" that's not childish building up, that's noting that GW has already addressed this.

now are space marines too big for some roles? proably. but less so then you might think.

I said its the basis of their fluff. Its like they thought "what could possibly kill a person? the wrote a list of everything that could counter what would kill a person. Heart failure? Dont worry they have another! Need oxygen? Dont worry they hardly need it?

Then they went ok, now lets make their armored suits fix everything else! And thats how you have space marine fluff.

And size is very important. try finding cover being the size of a space marine.

I just cant take their fluff seriously at all. And i know im not the only one.

 Swastakowey wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
Well from a stealth perspective I think Storm Troopers are far better. Smaller, arent walking coffins and their guns are silent.

Storm Troopers have the gear to fight in most environments and deal with most threats. Storm Troopers also have rechargeable ammo so can survive longer being isolated (bar food). Although i imagine a space marine being so large he probably needs a lot of food, much like a cow.

Overall i think that Storm Troopers are better for most purposes especially guerrilla style fighting and scouting type operations and so on.

Astartes survive longer than Stormtroopers- they can eat anything, even if it's poisoned. Otherwise they have near complete control of their metabolism and can digest nearly anything. An Astartes beating nids to death with the butt of his bolter for food if he's cut off from Imperial forces is completely possible. Hell, IIRC, so long as they force themselves into coma, they can survive in the vacuum of space like they're a fething Water Bear.

And Astartes can also be completely silent. Night Lords and the Raven Guard especially are renowned for their stealth ambushes and general sneakyness.
(Might have something to do maybe with the magnetic soles of their armored boots.)

Im not ripping into you dude so dont take offence but have you heard kids argue? "my guy can shoot lasers!" then "well yea my guy can block lasers then shoot plasma.." and the argument goes on forever. Thats where i start to give up because the space marines are based on a childs argument. Thats the problem with space marines. No matter what you say there is some fluff somewhere that has something to counter it.


The way i see it is the astartes are like those Giant Swiss army knives with have hundreds of uses, but they are just too big and annoying to be practical at all. But i am very sure there is some fluff that says that statement is wrong...

you keep using the "kids arguing" comparison. except it's wrong. kids arguing tend to make that type of stuff up on the spot to counter someone else's. this isn't the case with Marines. the Capabilities of Marines are well eistablished. what they can and cannot do, are well eistablished.

if you say "ohh Marines would have trouble in these situations" and someone replies "well they can do this and this and this which minimizes or removes those issues" that's not childish building up, that's noting that GW has already addressed this.

now are space marines too big for some roles? proably. but less so then you might think.

I said its the basis of their fluff. Its like they thought "what could possibly kill a person? the wrote a list of everything that could counter what would kill a person. Heart failure? Dont worry they have another! Need oxygen? Dont worry they hardly need it?

Then they went ok, now lets make their armored suits fix everything else! And thats how you have space marine fluff.

And size is very important. try finding cover being the size of a space marine.

I just cant take their fluff seriously at all. And i know im not the only one.

Protip: This is because W40K isn't serious.

Aaaand knockout punch.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
Well from a stealth perspective I think Storm Troopers are far better. Smaller, arent walking coffins and their guns are silent.

Storm Troopers have the gear to fight in most environments and deal with most threats. Storm Troopers also have rechargeable ammo so can survive longer being isolated (bar food). Although i imagine a space marine being so large he probably needs a lot of food, much like a cow.

Overall i think that Storm Troopers are better for most purposes especially guerrilla style fighting and scouting type operations and so on.

Astartes survive longer than Stormtroopers- they can eat anything, even if it's poisoned. Otherwise they have near complete control of their metabolism and can digest nearly anything. An Astartes beating nids to death with the butt of his bolter for food if he's cut off from Imperial forces is completely possible. Hell, IIRC, so long as they force themselves into coma, they can survive in the vacuum of space like they're a fething Water Bear.

And Astartes can also be completely silent. Night Lords and the Raven Guard especially are renowned for their stealth ambushes and general sneakyness.
(Might have something to do maybe with the magnetic soles of their armored boots.)

Im not ripping into you dude so dont take offence but have you heard kids argue? "my guy can shoot lasers!" then "well yea my guy can block lasers then shoot plasma.." and the argument goes on forever. Thats where i start to give up because the space marines are based on a childs argument. Thats the problem with space marines. No matter what you say there is some fluff somewhere that has something to counter it.


The way i see it is the astartes are like those Giant Swiss army knives with have hundreds of uses, but they are just too big and annoying to be practical at all. But i am very sure there is some fluff that says that statement is wrong...

you keep using the "kids arguing" comparison. except it's wrong. kids arguing tend to make that type of stuff up on the spot to counter someone else's. this isn't the case with Marines. the Capabilities of Marines are well eistablished. what they can and cannot do, are well eistablished.

if you say "ohh Marines would have trouble in these situations" and someone replies "well they can do this and this and this which minimizes or removes those issues" that's not childish building up, that's noting that GW has already addressed this.

now are space marines too big for some roles? proably. but less so then you might think.

I said its the basis of their fluff. Its like they thought "what could possibly kill a person? the wrote a list of everything that could counter what would kill a person. Heart failure? Dont worry they have another! Need oxygen? Dont worry they hardly need it?

Then they went ok, now lets make their armored suits fix everything else! And thats how you have space marine fluff.

And size is very important. try finding cover being the size of a space marine.

I just cant take their fluff seriously at all. And i know im not the only one.

Protip: This is because W40K isn't serious.

When people say i cant take it seriously they normally mean thats its laughable.

Personally, I take 40k seriously, outside of possibly the new Grey Knights and Chaos Space Marines.

It feels more fun this way.

I don't care that "It's not meant to be taken seriously", even if that was true

 Melissia wrote:
Personally, I take 40k seriously, outside of possibly the new Grey Knights and Chaos Space Marines.

It feels more fun this way.

I don't care that "It's not meant to be taken seriously", even if that was true

I think there are a few good fluff excerpts from both of those books. Ones that I really do enjoy. I thought Mordrak was a very cool addition. And I think the fluff surrounding Ahriman in the current CSM codex is quite good. I run Thousand Suns because of that fluff.

I was told there would be no math.

You know what would be better than Storm Troopers AND Space Marines?

Storm Troopers with Space Marine gear!

Oh, wait...

You know what would be better than Storm Troopers with Space Marine gear?

Storm Troopers, with psycho-conditioning, über-training, and massive biological enhancements, AND Space Marine gear!

Oh, wait...

How do Chaos Space Marines and Grey Knights detract from the realisticness of the setting exactly?

So the faction with better training, longer training, longer lifespan, better armour and that are physically better are just slightly better than humans that have indured intense training? Also the idea that Sisters of Battle are better than Space Marines is ridiculous, if anything they are on an equal footing, although that's being generous to the Sisters of Battle.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:


http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Space_Marines

The Space Marines or Adeptus Astartes are foremost amongst the defenders of humanity, the greatest of the Emperor of Mankind's warriors.

Clad in ancient Power Armour and wielding the most potent weapons known to Man, the Space Marines are terrifying foes and their devotion to the Emperor and the Imperium of Man is unyielding.

The Space Marines are the Imperium of Man’s supreme warriors. Genetically-enhanced to be the ultimate soldiers of Mankind, they are far stronger and more resilient than ordinary human beings.

He is protected by a suit of Power Armour, shielding him from the fiercest of enemy fire whilst simultaneously strengthening his blows and allowing him to survive the most hostile of environments.

The Space Marines of the Adeptus Astartes are the greatest fighting force of the Imperium of Man. Genetically-enhanced to serve Mankind as humanity's ultimate warriors, they are far stronger and more resilient than even the most exceptional unenhanced human beings.

It is obvious that a Stormtrooper is nowhere near the equal of that. One can only handwave and blame so many quotes and different sources on 'codex bias' when they are described as both better warriors than any non-Astartes human, and using the best equipment.

Personally I'm inclined to go with the Marines, but the Stormtroopers could win if they played to their strengths. In a straight-up firefight I think the Troopers are doomed. But that wouldn't be a situation the Troopers (and bear in mind the ones working for an Inquisitor are the best of the best) would allow to happen except as a last resort. Stormtrooper fluff makes it clear that covert ops are their thing.

Also, even if they can pull off an ambush the Troopers have to work fast and make their shots count. Space Marines have so many advantages that they're going to be able to hit back very quickly.They're conditioned to be able to overcome panic and assess the battlefield instantly (as represented by ATSKNF). One misplaced shot, even from a hotshot weapon, can be turned or soaked up by their armour. Their superior reflexes and autosenses will let them spot their attackers in their hiding places. And let's not forget that they can get chunks blown out of their bodies or lose limbs and keep on fighting.

So overall the Marines would have a big advantage, but the Strotroopers could win if they could hit hard with overwhelming force and no warning and were prepared to withdraw if things didn't go exactly to plan.

 Melissia wrote:
A squad of them will kill more than one marine, more likely than not.

If they get the drop on them-- which is quite likely as that is what they specialize in-- they could probably decimate an entire squad, if not wipe it out utterly.

I have this feeling that if the question was about sororitas instead of astartes that the storm troopers would not stand a chance.

 Fezman wrote:
Personally I'm inclined to go with the Marines, but the Stormtroopers could win if they played to their strengths. In a straight-up firefight I think the Troopers are doomed. But that wouldn't be a situation the Troopers (and bear in mind the ones working for an Inquisitor are the best of the best) would allow to happen except as a last resort. Stormtrooper fluff makes it clear that covert ops are their thing.

Also, even if they can pull off an ambush the Troopers have to work fast and make their shots count. Space Marines have so many advantages that they're going to be able to hit back very quickly.They're conditioned to be able to overcome panic and assess the battlefield instantly (as represented by ATSKNF). One misplaced shot, even from a hotshot weapon, can be turned or soaked up by their armour. Their superior reflexes and autosenses will let them spot their attackers in their hiding places. And let's not forget that they can get chunks blown out of their bodies or lose limbs and keep on fighting.

So overall the Marines would have a big advantage, but the Strotroopers could win if they could hit hard with overwhelming force and no warning and were prepared to withdraw if things didn't go exactly to plan.

This is has been my point as soon as those storm troopers fire a marine will automatically know where he is and a Bolter shell ( which easily punch through carapace armour ) will quickly follow either killing said storm trooper or taking him out of the fight

Lets not forget power armour has many sensors to help a marine detect threats and many aim assists to ensure that his shots count

Also hotshot lasguns are a thing that has been fabricated for guard to kill marines easier on the board where as a Bolter is a mile away from its real potencial oh yea and did anyone take into account they also get hot ?? That would have a drastic effect in a real fire fight in fluff world