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Maybe so, but it was even internally broken for the game itself. It was possible, given the rules around it, to consistently output more damage with the standard boltgun than with a lascannon or a missile launcher.

40K is filled to the brim with power fantasies.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Harker#.UtWyDFvuJ8E for example.

I mean, the description of how he crushes the neck of a Ravener with his 'monstrous biceps' makes even me raise an eyebrow, and I am kind of hardened to these things.

 Psienesis wrote:
You are on drugs if you believe that a hellgun, which penetrates power armor like it's not there, then delivers the same "punch" to the target inside that PA as a standard lasgun.

That's... no. Not even close.

Wait . . . wait a second . . . are you actually implying that a weapon that is good at penetrating armor, is (automatically, and by virtue of being good at penetrating armor) good at lethally wounding a target?

Really?

Considering that most of a Space Marine's protection vs getting shot is his ability to simply stop it (by virtue of power armor or his Black Carapace), a weapon that ignores one or both of these (by burning a hole straight through them) is going to be more effective at actually inflicting injury.

Since we are discussing a high-powered laser weapon, the fact that the beam is blasting through the PA, and then into the Space Marine (also through the BC, assuming a center-mass shot), that super-heated beam/bar of kineto-thermal energy is striking directly into the internal organ systems of the Space Marine.

Now, while this is less-lethal to a Marine than it would be to a normal human, this is still Not A Good Thing for the Marine. After all, they "only" have 2 hearts and 3 lungs, but losing all of them to a sudden burst of las-fire would be a pretty terrible death.

The fast-clotting action of the Space Marine's blood is of less value to these sorts of wounds, because they aren't surface injuries, they're internal, either burning/charring organs or causing organ failure due to a combination of thermal expansion, burning and kinetic impact. He's not bleeding because he has a bullet-wound, he's bleeding because the hellgun just burned a hole through him that, because of thermal expansion, blew itself wider than the lasbeam itself.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I don't agree that Black Library is that inconsistent- the majority of incidents people use to assert that its inconsistent are actually just events with context that they either missed or ignored;

Though there really are contradictions. Obviously we've got Goto's numerous escapdes, but I can also point to smaller things, like the Cain novels re-writing how the Schola works. Notably, we even have the term "Abnett-hammer 40K" to describe how Dan Abnett's books have their own things in them that set them apart from the rest of the fluff.

But more notably, actual BL people have said that the canon is intentionally loose, and can adopt the mindset of "everything and nothing is true". Aaron Dembski-Bowden goes into some detail on it here. So, naturally, some contradicions (be they with studio fluff or other BL books) do happen sometimes. It doesn't make the books any less enjoyable (unless taken too far), but it's just something to keep in mind. The pieces don't always slot together, and they're not always intended to either.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
case in point, the marine being killed by a lasgun in First and Only, and the Marine being killed by the poison arrows in Traitor General: in the first instance, the marine was not wearing a helmet, and was shot in the face by what was basically a hot-shot lasgun in all but name, and in the second instance the Marine was not wearing a helmet, and was shot dozens of times in the face by arrows dipped in poison so deadly that they killed normal men instantly, these arrows were also sharp enough to penetrate flakk armor.

As I pointed out in the other thread, Storm of Iron is (apparently) still an example of Marines being killed by lasgun fire. Similarly, the Sisters in James Swallow's book are wary of lasgun fire, even though they too are clad in ceramite armour (and thus, according to some interpretations, immune to lasgun fire in the first place). So yeah, the exact nature of this issue has varied.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Just an example of common instances Dakkaites bring up to cry about the Black Library, but are too stupid to remember the context for.

Hey now, no need for insults. Sometimes there are legitimate contradictions that people come across, be they differing details or just differences in tone. Nobody is wrong or stupid to raise these points, and it doesn't mean that they hate BL. I'm often noting various contradictions between studio and BL fluff, but I'm always part-way through a BL novel.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
The point is that certain people who believe that the BL is inconsistent have no problems with using it as evidence when it suits them, which is pretty contemptible.

Personally, I make a point of avoiding this. Whenever I refer to BL as an example of something, I tend to note that it may not line up with studio fluff.

 Psienesis wrote:
Considering that most of a Space Marine's protection vs getting shot is his ability to simply stop it (by virtue of power armor or his Black Carapace), a weapon that ignores one or both of these (by burning a hole straight through them) is going to be more effective at actually inflicting injury.

Since we are discussing a high-powered laser weapon, the fact that the beam is blasting through the PA, and then into the Space Marine (also through the BC, assuming a center-mass shot), that super-heated beam/bar of kineto-thermal energy is striking directly into the internal organ systems of the Space Marine.

Now, while this is less-lethal to a Marine than it would be to a normal human, this is still Not A Good Thing for the Marine. After all, they "only" have 2 hearts and 3 lungs, but losing all of them to a sudden burst of las-fire would be a pretty terrible death.

The fast-clotting action of the Space Marine's blood is of less value to these sorts of wounds, because they aren't surface injuries, they're internal, either burning/charring organs or causing organ failure due to a combination of thermal expansion, burning and kinetic impact. He's not bleeding because he has a bullet-wound, he's bleeding because the hellgun just burned a hole through him that, because of thermal expansion, blew itself wider than the lasbeam itself.

This is not about 'laser beams', (or even about SM vs ST) this is about the basic metric of how you deliver damage to a target, and how you penetrate armor. Two things which, conventional, have an inversely proportional relationship. You see, the thing is; when you want to take down a target, what matters is how much energy you can transfer to the target, the more energy you transfer, the greater the damage / more serious the wounds. By contrast, when penetrating armor, you want to transfer a little energy as possible to the armor while still being able to effect what is on the far side. In essence, you want to save your energy so it can still be transferred to the target. This is why it is Armor 'Penetration' and not Armor 'Destruction'. Doing both is really hard as weapons usually only transfer energy in one way, and cant tell the difference between 'Armor' and 'Target'.

In the real world we have armor piercing rounds (which concentrate the energy of the impact, good for punching through armor, bad for transferring energy to the target) and hollow point rounds (good at transferring the energy, bad at getting through armor).

In essence, what I am saying, is that a weapon with a high armor penetration should not automatically be good at wounding as well, and we should not expect it to be. Hence, the relative Strength and AP ratings of a Hellgun is not unreasonable (or even surprising).

/nitpick: Also BC (despite it's name) has, at best, negligible protective qualities, its for interfacing with the PA. /endnitpick

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
40K is filled to the brim with power fantasies.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Harker#.UtWyDFvuJ8E for example.

I mean, the description of how he crushes the neck of a Ravener with his 'monstrous biceps' makes even me raise an eyebrow, and I am kind of hardened to these things.

Y'know, I don't think that it'd be too far a stretch to theorise that Harker is an abhuman of some kind, if we take his fluff as complete truth. I mean, the Sisters are some of the best trained human soldiers around and even they need power armour and a special gauntlet to use a heavy bolter. To me, that seems like it could be something beyond just being an exceptionally strong normal human. His Ravenor-slaying biceps certainly reinforce that too. I may be going a bit far, here, but that's just the impression I'm getting.

Edit: Though, mind you, he is from a brutal hell-hole of a world. So their "exceptionals" might seem like super-humans to us present-day Terrans.

Hellguns destroy armor. They burn holes directly through it. That's how they function, and why the STR carries them, as it offers them the best killing option for the vast bulk of their foes.

While a bolter might be a better weapon, overall, against certain Xeno targets, the hellgun offers the STR a lasweapon (thus able to resupply anywhere there is light, heat or electrical power), a very high ammo capacity (150 shots in that backpack, without every having to reload), that defeats Power Armor (available to a number of forces, including SM, CSM, SoB, Tau, and Eldar) with ease, much in the way the sniping "hotshot" lasweapons do, excepting that these are not single-shot cells. Remember, that the bulk of the Imperial Guard's foe (and thus the Stormtrooper Regiment, as they primarily support Guard operations) are going to be other humans. The fact that the hellgun blows through PA means that any other armor that a human military force is likely to have is worthless, and the shot itself is near lethal (only against non-human foes is the lasgun a "flashlight"... and even then only on the tabletop, really.)

In the real world ...

Doesn't apply here. We're talking about 40K. The way a hellgun blows through PA has no real-world equivalent, and being that it is a directed-energy weapon, it can be both an AP round and a hollow-point... or an armor-piercing frangible round, if you desire. Las weapons in 40K function with a combination of thermal energy and kinetic energy, providing both extreme heat and "punch", which ends up causing wounds to "explode" around the point of impact (as described in IUP and a few other sources).

 Psienesis wrote:
Hellguns destroy armor. They burn holes directly through it. That's how they function, and why the STR carries them, as it offers them the best killing option for the vast bulk of their foes.

Look, I'm not arguing that it's not a great weapon, or that it's not effective against SM. (Hell, I'm not even touching the ST vs SM argument if I can help it) I am arguing the assumption that high AP should = high stopping power. Destroying armor is not the same thing as Penetrating it.

 Psienesis wrote:

In the real world ...

Doesn't apply here. We're talking about 40K. The way a hellgun blows through PA has no real-world equivalent, and being that it is a directed-energy weapon, it can be both an AP round and a hollow-point... or an armor-piercing frangible round, if you desire.

But it's not. It's a S:3 AP:3 weapon. It has the same (or near enough) stopping power to the Las-gun (which it not to be underrated), and that should not be considered weird, and people should not be considered 'not-in-their-right-mind' for believing that.

 Psienesis wrote:

Las weapons in 40K function with a combination of thermal energy and kinetic energy, providing both extreme heat and "punch", which ends up causing wounds to "explode" around the point of impact (as described in IUP and a few other sources).

That sounds really nasty, but pretty much every description of a weapon's damage in this game sounds nasty (Bolt shells will blow you apart like you just swallowed a grenade if you read some sources). And there is (nearly*) nothing to say that the Hellgun does wounds that are nastier. Unless you assume that higher Armor penetration equates automatically to higher stopping power, which (I reiterate) it does not.

(*the description in the IG codex describes them as 'more powerful', which is pretty vague and listed just below it's in-game weapon profile).

Whether or not lasguns cauterize or deal more realistic wounds depends on the author's narrative need.

But It's very hard to argue that hellguns would cauterize. If it's capable of going through power armor, it's going to cause all blood that it comes in contact with to instantly evaporate/possibly turn in to plasma, creating wounds comparable with a boltgun.

Any laser cold enough to cauterize isn't likely to do much harm.

GW is written by artists, however, not physicists

 Melissia wrote:
GW is written by artists, however, not physicists

Except for Cruddace. He's both.

 Pendix wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Hellguns destroy armor. They burn holes directly through it. That's how they function, and why the STR carries them, as it offers them the best killing option for the vast bulk of their foes.

Look, I'm not arguing that it's not a great weapon, or that it's not effective against SM. (Hell, I'm not even touching the ST vs SM argument if I can help it) I am arguing the assumption that high AP should = high stopping power. Destroying armor is not the same thing as Penetrating it.

 Psienesis wrote:

In the real world ...

Doesn't apply here. We're talking about 40K. The way a hellgun blows through PA has no real-world equivalent, and being that it is a directed-energy weapon, it can be both an AP round and a hollow-point... or an armor-piercing frangible round, if you desire.

But it's not. It's a S:3 AP:3 weapon. It has the same (or near enough) stopping power to the Las-gun (which it not to be underrated), and that should not be considered weird, and people should not be considered 'not-in-their-right-mind' for believing that.

 Psienesis wrote:

Las weapons in 40K function with a combination of thermal energy and kinetic energy, providing both extreme heat and "punch", which ends up causing wounds to "explode" around the point of impact (as described in IUP and a few other sources).

That sounds really nasty, but pretty much every description of a weapon's damage in this game sounds nasty (Bolt shells will blow you apart like you just swallowed a grenade if you read some sources). And there is (nearly*) nothing to say that the Hellgun does wounds that are nastier. Unless you assume that higher Armor penetration equates automatically to higher stopping power, which (I reiterate) it does not.

(*the description in the IG codex describes them as 'more powerful', which is pretty vague and listed just below it's in-game weapon profile).

I'd also point out as well that the hellgun is an over-penetration weapon. It focuses on simply blasting through armor as opposed to damaging what's underneath it. Also to my knowledge the 'kinetic' damage a lasgun creates is just it super-heating the local area it hits as opposed to any KE attack as I've never read anything hinting lasguns to be a plasma/particle hybrid weaponry like Star Wars blasters unless it comes from the deepest pits of the Black Library that includes such silliness as backflipping Terminators or going above and beyond the call of duty to see how many times the word 'wolf' can be fitted into a sentence.

Quick comparison comparison on ST vs SM, aspect by aspect: Training, augmentation, armor, weapons.

Training: Toss up - Both groups take long priods to time to train for fighting the worst enemies in the galaxy, cream of the crop type training, whether or not in the SM BCT or in the Schola.

Augmentation: Marines - They are so heavly modified they are basically their own subspecies. While ST do receive some augmentations, they certainly can't hold a candle to what a SM has to go through (which just might kill him in the process).

Armor: Marines - ST probably wish they could shrug off autocannon rounds (would seem like a nice 'feth you marines' moment) but alas, Power Armor can absorb tank rounds and still chug along (even though the Space Marine might be a tad bit concussed).

Weapons: Toss Up - Bolters blow you up from the inside, but the HSLGs don't care if you like Power Armor or not. Also like others have said bolters can mess up Carapace but the wearer would still live, but HSLGs pierce the PA but might leave the marine somewhat intact (HSLG more akin to AP rounds while LGs are hollow points). Maybe a slight edge to ST.

Overall: Space Marines, but not by very much, those HSLGs will give them more than just sun burn.

Power armor can't shrug off tank rounds unless you are only using rounds from extremely lightly armed tanks like Predators.

And even then only if you use their lightest armament.

 Melissia wrote:
Power armor can't shrug off tank rounds unless you are only using rounds from extremely lightly armed tanks like Predators.

And even then only if you use their lightest armament.

And battle cannons (IGs main tank weapon) both ignore power armour and kill marines in one hit.

Let's face it, battle cannons can wipe out entire squads of marines in a single shot.

In your interpretation, aye, I suppose they can.

But that's why they use Terminators against such tanks. Terminators laugh at Battle Cannons.

Though, I suppose in your interpretation, they get nommed by battlecannons too.

You know what, nevermind. This is not a discussion that will go anywhere. I'll leave you to that.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
In your interpretation, aye, I suppose they can.

If that is your final defense of your position...

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
But that's why they use Terminators against such tanks. Terminators laugh at Battle Cannons.

There are probably a dozen times more LRBTs in a tank regiment than there are terminator suits in the average chapter.

And of course, it is not at all that hard for a tank to simply stay out of range of a slow-moving terminator.

Really, if you wanted to give an example of a unit of marines who would be good against tanks, you'd have used assault marines; they're capable of rapid, unpredictable movement and getting above and away from the turret's arc of fire, and then getting on the tank to place melta bombs/krak grenades or just plain tear it apart with power weapons, or deactivate its machinery by stuffing a chainsword in it (such as cutting its treads or hacking away at its sponsons). This means that they'd be far more likely to succeed than a terminator wobbling up to it trying to smack it with his oversized gauntlet.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
In your interpretation, aye, I suppose they can.

But that's why they use Terminators against such tanks. Terminators laugh at Battle Cannons.

Though, I suppose in your interpretation, they get nommed by battlecannons too.

You know what, nevermind. This is not a discussion that will go anywhere. I'll leave you to that.

The Shadowsword laughs at your Terminators. Laughs from its mountain! (or its tank-box, whichever.)

... so do the Valdor and the Annihilator, for that matter.

 Melissia wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
In your interpretation, aye, I suppose they can.

If that is your final defense of your position...

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
But that's why they use Terminators against such tanks. Terminators laugh at Battle Cannons.

There are probably a dozen times more LRBTs in a tank regiment than there are terminator suits in the average chapter.

And of course, it is not at all that hard for a tank to simply stay out of range of a slow-moving terminator.

Really, if you wanted to give an example of a unit of marines who would be good against tanks, you'd have used assault marines; they're capable of rapid, unpredictable movement and getting above and away from the turret's arc of fire, and then getting on the tank to place melta bombs/krak grenades or just plain tear it apart with power weapons, or deactivate its machinery by stuffing a chainsword in it (such as cutting its treads or hacking away at its sponsons). This means that they'd be far more likely to succeed than a terminator wobbling up to it trying to smack it with his oversized gauntlet.

Terminators have Cyclone Missiles and heavy flamers, your argument's invalid. Terminators don't need to punch a tank with their power fist, their standard armaments will chew right through it.

(Especially because they can teleport near the tank or theoretically in it.)

Oh, and because of the failtastic vehicle designs of everyone but the Tau and Eldar, Terminators can easily stay out of the firing arcs of fixed weapon sponsons that can't properly turn to get a shot. While the tank is being turned into an oven by a flamer/chewed into by an autocannon/blown up by a cyclone missile barrage. Or just punched into with a power fist if the Terminator's near it for some reason.

A heavy flamer to take out a Leman Russ?

Really? REALLY?

 Wyzilla wrote:
Terminators have Cyclone Missiles and heavy flamers

And then nobody cared because those really aren't going to do much of anything to the front armor of an LRBT before it wrecks the terminator. Especially not the heavy flamer, lol. Even firing krak missiles, they'd still not get any penetrating hits.

Meanwhile the LRBT is shredding the terminator to bits with heavy bolters, a lascannon, and a battle cannon.

Except that would require the Terminators to a) deploy outside that weapon arc and, b) the tank to sit still.

Flamers are not actually useful against a tank, just as they really shouldn't be useful against Terminators, since flamers don't actually burn that hot and tank armor is actually not very heat-conductive. Especially not something on a Baneblade chassis. Terminators should actually be more resilient than they are (being that the armor comes from the suits once worn to work on a plasma reactor...)

Termi can't teleport into the tank, they're too big. You'd just have a dead Termi, like a Star Trek teleporter accident.

 Wyzilla wrote:


Terminators have Cyclone Missiles and heavy flamers, your argument's invalid. Terminators don't need to punch a tank with their power fist, their standard armaments will chew right through it.

They carry 1 per 5. Cyclone missile launchers won't do squat to an LRBT's frontal armor, and only a lucky shot will do much to the side. Heavy Flamers have a slim chance against rear armor.

(Especially because they can teleport near the tank or theoretically in it.)

Managing that would be rather difficult, especially doing so repeatedly. If might work against one tank. What are Terminators going to do when faced with a company of tanks for each terminator they're facing. by the same token we can assume the Terminators are also taking fire from tanks hundreds if not thousands of meters away (modern tank armament can hit and destroy targets in excess of 5km).

Oh, and because of the failtastic vehicle designs of everyone but the Tau and Eldar, Terminators can easily stay out of the firing arcs of fixed weapon sponsons that can't properly turn to get a shot.

So the slow, lumbering, 8ft tall gigantic dudes stay out of the arc of these things....how? Especially when almost certainly outnumbered?

While the tank is being turned into an oven by a flamer/chewed into by an autocannon/blown up by a cyclone missile barrage.

The vast majority of which likely just bounces off.

Or just punched into with a power fist if the Terminator's near it for some reason.

And we're assuming they can't be run over and squished...why?

 Melissia wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Terminators have Cyclone Missiles and heavy flamers

And then nobody cared because those really aren't going to do much of anything to the front armor of an LRBT before it wrecks the terminator. Especially not the heavy flamer, lol. Even firing krak missiles, they'd still not get any penetrating hits.

Meanwhile the LRBT is shredding the terminator to bits with heavy bolters, a lascannon, and a battle cannon.

Wait what, are you taking game mechanics as canon or not?

If not, then you should remember that an 'elite' SoB is as skilled in close combat as an average Guardsman.

Oh, and an unarmoured Captain can eat two direct hits from an Executioner Plasma Cannon without impairing his fighting ability.

An unarmoured Canoness survives three times as much firepower as an unarmoured Celestian.

A Kustom Force field stops exactly 1/3rd of all incoming attacks, except Markerlights that temporarily allows shots to smash through it.

Lelith Hesperax is better at aiming than a Vindicare Assassin, despite not really having or using ranged weapons whatsoever. (It's dubious that she even has used one at all.)

The moments after an Ork boyz mob has reached it, they can destroy a Leman Russ, but after these moments it is impervious to their attacks.

No matter how much they want to, no single unit in the 41st Millennium can throw more than a single grenade at a time, and waiting a bit before throwing the next.

Game mechanics, yo.


Oh, and the LR has a vision slit. A heavy flamer in there would actually be rather nasty, if you use logic. (Double standards again, Melissia? Only using logic for your own preferred faction/s?)

Oh, and the interpretation thing is not a 'final defense'. It's not like you can argue against interpretations, since I assume you have taken the available fluff into consideration already (Just like I have for mine) and I doubt you'd change your interpretation based on what mine is.

Besides, if you want to complain on SM being power fantasies, check the link I gave at the top of the page. You should put blame where it's due, not only the parts where it is due and serve your purposes. Even if perhaps that Snake Brotherhood thing might be a tad too much, as I said.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And this is why I said I'd rather not start this whole thing again. It just becomes a clusterfeth without any results.

They're a good indicator of how things are played out, TT stats, that is.

We know a Hellgun will punch through Power armor and anything else under it. But it will struggle agaisnt Termi, same for most AP 3 stuff.

We know Sisters don't have special CC training, although they're probably WS 3.8, like Stormtroopers and IG vets.

We know a KFF can block most weapons, some times.

Etc

 Bobthehero wrote:
They're a good indicator of how things are played out, TT stats, that is.

We know a Hellgun will punch through Power armor and anything else under it. But it will struggle agaisnt Termi, same for most AP 3 stuff.

We know Sisters don't have special CC training, although they're probably WS 3.8, like Stormtroopers and IG vets.

We know a KFF can block most weapons, some times.

Etc

But...

That is just interpreting everything in your preferred unit/s' and/or faction/s' favour.

Not that that is wrong, but at least say so.

I mean, if a ST is WS 3.8, what stops a Mahreen from having T4.99 and W1.99?




Automatically Appended Next Post:
But yeah, the 'X vs X' debate is done now, I think. I'll just leave this here and move on. o/




Yeah, the Marines are the posterboys, given most fluff, most codices, most novels, are the most played faction, are literally stated as 'The core of 40K' on page 151 in the latest WD... But that is okay. I feel that some more attention could be given to other races... But that is enough. The status quo is not that bad, fluffwise (Though gamewise, that's another matter. /tyranidcodex )

Shhh.

No tears. Only dreams now. Unrustle your jimmies.

/tiphat

/turnandleave

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Wait what, are you taking game mechanics as canon or not?

Both.

No matter how much they want to, no single unit in the 41st Millennium can throw more than a single grenade at a time, and waiting a bit before throwing the next.

It's very, very hard in real life to throw more than one grenade at the same time, since your other hand is being used to pull the pin out of the grenade.

Wait what, are you taking game mechanics as canon or not?

Game stats are not "canon", though they can be somewhat taken as an illustrative basis, and if you are not taking them as canon, then the Sisters are definitely better at hand to hand combat than a Guardsman, because the fluff for the Sisterhood clearly details that she spends the majority of her time in combat training... while we know (from other fluff) that the average IG soldier doesn't. They spend their time eating, drinking, hanging around, playing cards, smoking tabac and other war-movie scenes events. It is, after all, the Sister's kung fu that allows her to perform things that appear miraculous to the unschooled.

For the record, I don't think Sisters march calmly forwards towards a traitor's LRBT hoping that they'll let her get in to range with that meltagun. Sisters are best deployed where their strengths are-- assaults at critical junctures and urban warfare, where their powerful short ranged weaponry and powered armor is put to good use.