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Is it time to hang up my Nemesis Sword?

With the change in the overall meta from 5th to 6th, and the upgrades certain codex's have had (I'm looking at you Tau/Eldar) should I hold on in there and hope a GK 6th edition codex is coming or is time to flirt with another 'Dex?

There are codex's older than ours getting the hardback treatment before us (Tau, Eldar and Nid) and several needing some love as well (Ork, IG, BA, DE) so I don't see a new book arriving anytime soon.

With only one "viable" anti-air unit (Stormraven) I hate the idea of having to dice spam defence or (urgh) ally or buy the fekin Aegis generic defence line, we get chewed to pieces in no short order (Necron fliers and Heldrakes hurt a lot).

One of my pet hates with the GK book in 6th is being told by all and sundry "Corteaz and HM spam for the win". I didn't start collecting GK to play a IG army with cheese bolted onto it.

As a whole GK don't have the boots on the ground or the range/decent Str/AP to "compete" against most other lists.

Someone please convince me that my silver heroes are still worth taking out of the box.

I think that the GK deviate far enough away from pure meq to be better off than other meq lists. That being said, the Eldar/Tau are still going to rain tons of wounds down on your list. GK usually have to get to mid-field to start hitting back in earnest.

They're better than BA and I'm still using BA codex from time to time. There's that. I guess it depends on how much losing you can stand.

I think the change in editions requires a degree of evolution in tactics and operations. Coteaz and henchmen are a good list, but hardly the only one. Allies are a valuable tool in this new edition, and I think you hamstring yourself if you don't use them. Fortifications are likewise a good option. (The Void Shield Generators are a nice new shiny that might help your marines reach the midfield where, as Martel said, they become more of a threat.)

If you are determined not to use these tools, then you've kind of put yourself at a disadvantage. Still, I maintain that the most important factor in any army is experience. The more experience you have with your army, and against the various other armies, the better off you'll be.

You definitely need to get some kind of anti-aircraft capacity, though. Even without extensive allies or leaning heavily on fortifications as a crutch, that's just a concession I can't see you avoiding having to make. (The Stormraven is, of course, always an option.)

It's no secret GKs are a shadow of their former glory at the moment. I've had decent luck with Strike squad spam and mordrak bomb lists. I've entertained the idea of switching armies too, but 1. I have far too many models to try to get rid of. 2. They'll get an update eventually. With the current rate of releases, it's possible we'll get an update sometime next year. 3. I've switched armies more times than I would like to admit and a few of those times I screwed myself because the army I got out of got awesome! (I'm looking at you necrons)

My suggestion is to try different lists, and if you don't like them, then set them aside and start another army. When GKs get updated you can then decide if you want to start playing them again or sell them.

My big issue is the fact that by not using allies and generic fortifications I am hamstringing myself.

I didn't invest large sums of time and money into an army to find out that to make my army work, I have to add units from other codexs and use a blandness defence line.

With the edition change GK become an army of boom or bust, either your opponent somehow fails to kill you quick enough and you somehow get into CC and actually start wearing his army down...or you get shot to pieces before you make it close enough to either return firemor even attempt the charge (this is of course assuming you make your random charge distance or dont get OW'd to the point where your charge has been blunted).

Transports could get you across the board quicker, but with the over abundance of high strength weapons available, all your doing is gifting your opponent with a nice, cheap and easy FB VP.

6th edition games are won by playing the objective. And because our scoring units are screwed in the numbers department, holding objectives is getting harder and harder.

Meh, maybe I should give up and just spam Corteaz and as many henchman as I can get my hands on.

OP Im in exactly the same situation as you. I used to be real bad with bandwagoining and go through about an army every 2 months to get the latest hotness. I have had gk for the last 3 years which is the longest i have ever kept an army for.

I tell myself that more than one marine army is to much, so Im keeping my gk for that, I do love playing them, but I agree they are becoming a little out of the loop now but they are still pretty strong. I cant see a knew dex coming this year, mid next year at the earliest I reckon.

New armies I am looking at, nids, dark eldar, eldar.

I would say keep them and play them as your main army, they are still woth playing and pretty much everything in the book is decent, not just coteaz henchman spam. Then maybe slowly start a second army, just one unit every once in a while or something to take a break form all the silver.

I am sorry, I am not to laugh in your face. I mean you can actually say this with a straight face.

With the change in the overall meta from 5th to 6th, and the upgrades certain codex's have had (I'm looking at you Tau/Eldar)

I mean it was ok when you had the over powered codex in 5th edition but now that someone else has it, you complain or cry a bit?

What kind of player are you? I can say for me, I am a Dark Angel player. I am a Tyranid player. I quit just as 6th edition came, so I don't play no more, but I still collect.

I have used the DA codex and the Tyranid codex no matter what when I played my few games in 5th edition.

So if you have to ask your self if you should hang up your Nemisis sword, I guess you are really not a Grey Knight player.

Nothing wrong with you have to change armies so you can win with plastic toy soldiers.Then again, just like how Tau, and Eldar did before, and how CSM and DA do now, all I can say is just "suck it up princess". I mean you had your hey day, you should take good with the bad.

That was mean wasn't it? Sorry didn't make it to be mean, just funny when seeing one of the most over powered armies EVER complain.

If you are not having fun, then it's time to go onto something else. If that is starting a new army so be it. If it's another game system, so be that too. Do what you need to do to have FUN. No use playing something that is not giving you any fun.

So don't hang up your Nemesis Sword. Just start something new.

Gk Being the most OP codex of 5th? Was it something to do with being one of the last books out in 5th before the change to 6th?

No anti air? Even needing 6's to hit my purgation squad shreds flyers. Psifleman Dreads can knock hull points off also, being twin linked and S8.

Solis Luna Astrum wrote:
No anti air? Even needing 6's to hit my purgation squad shreds flyers. Psifleman Dreads can knock hull points off also, being twin linked and S8.

No actual efficient AA. Like I said, I would not rather have to rely on the "bucket of dice and hope" method.

Ohhh 24" Purge squads....If the 4 Psycannons stand still 16 shots...that's (on average) 2/3 hits, needing 5's to glance armour 12, throw in a jink save (or the 4+ from Astral Aim if you are using it)...and this is all dependant on your opponent being nice enough to fly into your 24" bubble and not just pick you off from range. Not to mention the fact that there are much more deserving units vying for HS slots.

Psyriflemen while effective still suffer from being an inefficient use of their abilities. Yes you have the re-roll, but while you fill the sky with lead praying you'll hit something, other models on your opponents army (which would be a lot easier to hit and effect) are going unpunished.

Fact is, if you are using non-AA units to try and bring down fliers, you either have nothing else to shot at it (in which case you are in the wrong position and should be moving to be more effective on the battlefield) or your out of options and his fliers are destroying you and you have nothing else you can throw at them.

Comparison time: Purge Squad versus SM Dev Squad. Give the Dev squad ML with Flakk. The Dev squad is 10 points cheaper, has double the range and an extra point of Str (8). Oh and will be hitting on 3's.

At least you have some in-codex AA (in the form of the Stormraven). Every time I start considering updating my Wolves for 6th the lack of a flyer/AA unit always gets me paranoid about making a list without a Aegis or vendetta allied in. The Stormraven makes for a pretty nifty gunship, though, is there any particular reason you're not considering it?

GK have lost their win-button status, but I'm satisfied with the change (and don't call me out on hating, I play GK myself ). Furthermore, I think they're still a pretty solid army--in fact I'd reckon they're in a better state than most other MEQ armies.

I don't think you mentioned the general sort of list you play, but it sounds like it's built around the 3+ save guys. In that case you probably should give them the transports--sure, high-strength things will blow them up but First Blood is almost guaranteed to whoever goes first anyways and having a transport makes for some considerable early-game mobility. If flyers are giving you trouble then piling into your opponent's deployment zone by turn 2 (interceptors can do this by turn 1!) can make it hard for the flyers to get a good shot (they'll have to do some awkward moving at least), lets you start wrecking stuff with your knights, and will give you Linebreaker as a cherry on top of it all. There are some armies you don't want to rush right up to, but for the army that tends to bring a certain problem flyer to the board (*cough*Helldrake*cough*) I find that CSM tend to lose to GK in CC. And all that lovely S5 GK shooting (plus Psycannons) is going to shred CSM at any range within 24".

There's also nothing wrong or inherently inefficient with spamming snap-shots at flyers. Thinking back on all the games I've played an MEQ army (GK/DA/RG) against my brother's CSM there's usually not very many big targets that I'm particularly afraid of aside from the Helldrake. I don't see any reason why spamming Psyleman shots up at the flyer is so distasteful to you. Heck, if you're playing aggressively and you're already in the enemy's deployment zone it's likely a few squads will have a good bucketload of S5 shots they can spam at its AV 10 butt. This coupled with the fact that at least half (probably more) of the flyers in the game are AV10-11 makes GK particularly suited towards dragging down aircraft with snap-shots. Also, most flyers probably don't scare GK all that much in the first place. Aside from Helldrakes and certain flyer-spam lists, most things in the sky tend to be geared towards hunting other flyers and/or hunting big enemy targets (or both, if it's a Vendetta) and won't do all that much to a GK list other than take out the rhinos that have already served their purpose.

On another note. I think 6th edition requires a very aggressive approach from GK. GK units have amazing killing power in both the shooting and assault phase. As you've mentioned you don't have the guys to hunker down and trade shots--so don't even try to hold objectives. Bring holy judgment right down on the enemy and sweep aside their troops with all that S5/S7 shooting (and that AP3 CC goodness) and then take whatever they were holding. Guardsmen hold the line, Grey Knights leap into the thickest fighting and win the day.

Edit:
Also, Flakk missiles are only S7 with no rending. Damage-wise they're worse than Psycannons, but they do have the 3+ to hit. Unfortunately AA devs are overpriced (not to mention they are also competing with better fire support options and better AA options). I'd take Psycannons over Flakk missiles any day.

Depends on your collection. GK can still be effective with the right build. Might be a matter of expanding your collection.

If you have your GK 'where you want them" and feel that you are ready and able to investin a new army, go for it. The only question would be what you want. Do you want to totally cheat on them and go into an "open relationship with them lol. The latter might be an option. check the allis chart and see who GK can ally with and combine and you build so you can still use them and get started playing your new army faster.

I made myself feel better about "cheating" on my GK by picking up the new SM codex and making them Deathwatch, they are still Inquisition dammit

i like that.
My own grey knights are "radical" knights that use a different color scheme. My marines just happen to have same scheme as they are in league with the inquisition branch that controls my radical knights. allows meto share vehciles between the two and save $ and makes it look more cohesive when allied. My guard is also the same except they have yellow on their ions where the knights/marines have blue but the base color is the same so their vehicles too can be used for either and again, it all looks cohesive.

If I ran GK, my force would be completely Deep Strike oriented- all terminators, coming in asap right to the front lines. Probably not the best list, but fun.

Do the GK have reserve shenanigans available?

Grey knights really aren't in that bad a shape. The players are just so used to face rolling to victory that this whole"having to try" thing is new

OP, if your current GK army is painted and contains several options to present a sizeable force, then it sounds like a perfect time to start a new army.

Don't start a new army for the sake of it, but if your GK army is fully built and battle ready, it's time to put that modeling time into production. Building a new force may also rekindle some 40k love.

outdated? ... heh *said by an Ork and Space Wolves Player*

yeah, it also depends on if you are just playing for fun and casually ... or trying to do more ... if you are wanting more then casual ... you always have to adapt to the changing meta ...

i have been debating the same thing with my Space Wolves ... just to gain access to a flyer or two and some stuff with Skyfire.

Civviewarrior20 wrote:

Solis Luna Astrum wrote:
No anti air? Even needing 6's to hit my purgation squad shreds flyers. Psifleman Dreads can knock hull points off also, being twin linked and S8.

No actual efficient AA. Like I said, I would not rather have to rely on the "bucket of dice and hope" method.

Ohhh 24" Purge squads....If the 4 Psycannons stand still 16 shots...that's (on average) 2/3 hits, needing 5's to glance armour 12, throw in a jink save (or the 4+ from Astral Aim if you are using it)...and this is all dependant on your opponent being nice enough to fly into your 24" bubble and not just pick you off from range. Not to mention the fact that there are much more deserving units vying for HS slots.

Psyriflemen while effective still suffer from being an inefficient use of their abilities. Yes you have the re-roll, but while you fill the sky with lead praying you'll hit something, other models on your opponents army (which would be a lot easier to hit and effect) are going unpunished.

Fact is, if you are using non-AA units to try and bring down fliers, you either have nothing else to shot at it (in which case you are in the wrong position and should be moving to be more effective on the battlefield) or your out of options and his fliers are destroying you and you have nothing else you can throw at them.

Comparison time: Purge Squad versus SM Dev Squad. Give the Dev squad ML with Flakk. The Dev squad is 10 points cheaper, has double the range and an extra point of Str (8). Oh and will be hitting on 3's.

Wow, so much wrong here. First, a 24" range weapon has a 48" bubble, not a 24" inch one. Place a Purgation Squad at the front center of your deployment zone and it covers quite a lot of the board surface and if you opponent does not fly into it you have limited his flyers to the board edges, negating much of their effectiveness.

Next, Missile Launchers are Heavy weapons and can only be fired at BS if they do not move. Move Devastators and they're hitting on 6's with only 4 shots. A moving Purgation Squad gets 8 shots hitting on 6's. Who's more effective when moving? Sure MLs get to fire Flakk Missiles at BS3 but it's only 4 shots, that's 3 hits on average. A Purgation Squad throws 16 dice with an average of 3 hits (2.66 hits rounded up). However with only throwing four dice a Devestator Squad has a much greater chance of wiffing on a bad roll, and a great roll can only get you four hits. throwing 16 dice greatly reduces the likelyhood of a bad roll and it's really hard to roll less than two 6's with 16 dice. On the other hand rolling four or five 6's is not uncommon with 16 dice.

Flakk missiles are S7 not S8. Psycannons have rending but that doesn't really matter since S7 and an Armour Pen roll of 6 equalls 13 and as far as I know there are no AV13 flyers.

A Grey Knights list with a Storm Raven and a Purgation Squad in it has nothing to fear from flyers.

On a 4X6 board a Purgation Squad placed as mentioned above covers all of the area inside the red circle.

Dear Civviewarrior20,
Hang in there brother - if it's not fun?!...yes - by all means try something new/different.
I've been a Daemonhunter player for longer than..well...let's not play that game...
The GK's are far from worthless even now. you just might need to re-think how to use them.
I play Eldar for variety but I always come back to Grey Knights as my 1st.

GK's are definitely not an easy army to play in 6th ed.
The only area they can truely excel in is CC and even then one Terminator squad or Monstrous Creature/Daemon prince can ruin your day.
(unless you go all DHammers+Terminators, then you might have a chance)

I just wanted to say you can still win games and confound opponents. I do and I love the confused looks on my opponent's faces when he realizes we Draw/Tied with only one model left on the table.
Play smarter, play better than the "look, here's my gun line. Let's just roll handfulls of dice." guy.
(The Grand Strategy options help a LOT)

You'll still take thrashings, to be sure but there's good advise in this thread already:
Psycannons and psiflemen are modest AA - especially on terminators, etc.

I know exactly where you're coming from through:
Our gun options begin and end at 24" - unless, of course...you give 20-40% of your pts over to LandRaiders/Stormravens
Stop...Don't even start.... I've heard it a hundred times...and you're still wrong.

but..but...Henchmen! you say:
...a few odd models of Toughness-3, no armor IG rejects huddles shivering around an even less useful HQ Required to even take them?
...also : not Grey Knights

but...but...Allies! you scream:
...I know the current state of the game. I do honestly but if I wanted to play IG or Orks I would.
don't even get me started on the idiocy that is the Allies matrix/chart

but...no...
no..I can't stop there. I can't sit through another forum filled with "GK's were Auto-win. Deal with it."
The only thing that made GK's(in their current codex) tough to deal with in 5th ed was that
the Wound Allocation rules were so horribly written and even THAT only implied a single unit(paladins).

I've gotten a little off-topic - my apologies.

My Message? : If you like the army - Use it.
Find games and opponents more interested in playing a game than clubbing baby seals.
Play to the mission objectives - this alone will give you advantage over half your opponents but you knew this already.

What's your beef against the ADL? I run with a Vindicare on the Icarus Lascannon and it flat out kills! Against flyers it almost always pens, and the ap2 makes it a worthwhile pen too usually. Versus FMC not only will it most likely wound, but it will force a grounding test. Also its great for sniping anything on the table over 36" away.

Mortikye wrote:
What's your beef against the ADL? I run with a Vindicare on the Icarus Lascannon and it flat out kills! Against flyers it almost always pens, and the ap2 makes it a worthwhile pen too usually. Versus FMC not only will it most likely wound, but it will force a grounding test. Also its great for sniping anything on the table over 36" away.

I put my ADL away months ago - "ignores Cover" has become ubiquitous and one or two shots don't have much chance of destroying a flier - let alone a FMC with 5+To and a zillion Wounds
I tried..I really tried...but I think all the games I played with an ADL/QuadGun for AA I think I managed to actually get a massive total of two "weapon destroyed" results.....but that's just my experience.

What is wrong with gk? You cannot keep using fifth tactics and win in sixth.

Solis Luna Astrum wrote:

Wow, so much wrong here. First, a 24" range weapon has a 48" bubble, not a 24" inch one. Place a Purgation Squad at the front center of your deployment zone and it covers quite a lot of the board surface and if you opponent does not fly into it you have limited his flyers to the board edges, negating much of their effectiveness.

On a 4X6 board a Purgation Squad placed as mentioned above covers all of the area inside the red circle.

Okay now do the same diagram on Hammer and Anvil (at least I think that's the name of the long board map). Now watch as 36"+ weapons take your 4 dudes (plus the stormbolter guy) apart.

So you're entire AA strategy is standing 5 dudes in the middle of the board, on the off chance that something will fly into their 24" range (on turn two). And then you're rolling and hoping for a 6...and then hoping for another 6 (while the guy with the storm bolter twiddles his thumbs)

Any opponent who isn't dribbling on themselves would have them either wiped out or dealt with sufficiently to make them a minor nuisance (as good as 3+ is, they are only T4 W1 models) as opposed to an actual threat by the end of turn one. Or just ignore them and use their superior range to work around them.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 sfshilo wrote:
What is wrong with gk? You cannot keep using fifth tactics and win in sixth.

Oh silly me, why didn't I think of that.

I have been pressing my "IWIN" button and forgot it got disconnected over a year ago.

Silly me.

Try using 3 X interceptor squads. That seems to be a viable way to pressure Xeno lists.

Run a 2K points list with 6 Dreadknights and Karamazov, for lots of high T 2+ saturation goodness. Give a few of them teleporters and add in Interceptors and you can start putting pressure on them from turn one.

K OP, what was the point of posting? "Please help me keep my army, but I'm gonna tell you why I don't want to do any of it". Well great.

Allies: SM, Scouts, Chapter Master, Hunter/Stalker, Stormtalon. Take them as Red Hunters and the CM can roll with your Paladins as a beat stick. You'll gain 2 great AA units, cheap too, a resilient cheap troop... Adds 8 models. If you need to save points, shelve the CM and add a Libby or MotF.

You also should add 1 inquisitor and some crusaders or the like. You're literally asking a question and ignoring the answer. Carefully spent, a $100 will radically update your force and keep it competitive. It will cost you 500-750 points. For most club play that's still about 1000 points of GK. We play 2k games, so in our matches you'd still have a lot of your silver warriors. Another thing to try may be larger/smaller games than your norm.

To adapt to changes, you have to make changes. You can be sarcastic about it, but you still need to do it.

 Lobukia wrote:
K OP, what was the point of posting? "Please help me keep my army, but I'm gonna tell you why I don't want to do any of it". Well great.

So I should adopt every suggestion given, regardless of merit? Okaayyyyyy...

Allies:....

So to play GK I should add models from other armies....No thanks.

You also should add 1 inquisitor and some crusaders or the like.

Got 2 Crusaders, 2 Redeemers, 2 Stormravens, 60 terminators, 40 Strikes, 20 Interceptors, 4 Dreadknights, 5 Dreadknights (1 of which is a Comtemptor), 3 Inquistors, one each of the Assassins, and a whole bunch other units. I don't think adding another inquisitor to my collection is going to make much difference.

You're literally asking a question and ignoring the answer.

Because the answer is "take Corteaz" or "buy more of the stuff you already have"

Carefully spent, a $100 will radically update your force and keep it competitive.

I have anywhere between 4-6 thousand points worth of models. I don't think throwing more money at the problem is the solution.

To adapt to changes, you have to make changes. You can be sarcastic about it, but you still need to do it.

Oh silly me, all I had to do was copy everyone else's net list and profit!!!!. Pretty much every unit we have is cheaper or better in other codexes.

Civviewarrior20 wrote:


Got 2 Crusaders, 2 Redeemers, 2 Stormravens, 60 terminators, 40 Strikes, 20 Interceptors, 4 Dreadknights, 5 Dreadknights (1 of which is a Comtemptor), 3 Inquistors, one each of the Assassins, and a whole bunch other units. I don't think adding another inquisitor to my collection is going to make much difference.


I have anywhere between 4-6 thousand points worth of models. I don't think throwing more money at the problem is the solution.

The models you claim to have add up to far mode points than you claim to have. With no upgrades at all the models you list exceed 7,000 points, and that's not including your "whole bunch other units". I don't think you even play the game. Of course you could post a picture of your army and prove me wrong.

And just to clarify, this is what 7,250 points of Grey Knights looks like.

Everyone had them back in the day. Now that you've settled down with them, they don't put out anymore.
Typical.