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I must ask. What feels like an Emperor's children army? I've steadily grown to like them (I blame Noise Marines beating berserkers for second favorite cult marine). Obviously tons of Noise Marines but what else? Did they prefer mechanized or anything? I know you can't do it but noise bikers sounds silly fun (albeit they would probably be far too costly)

 Jayden63 wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

So you take noise marine + lucius? How else are you getting twin doom siren.

Yup. You can only do it with one squad, but double templates out of the firing ports is a lot of fun if you can cover enough models. And once out of the rhino its a unit nobody really wants to charge either. Over watch hurts a lot. Also you now have a Noise Champion or Lucius to do challenges with, leaving the other to wreck havok on the squad when you charge in.

I think a lot of us who still run Chaos have learned to find the fun in the codex. Lucius is not considered a powerful or even competitive HQ choice by the internet at large, but damn he is fun and brings some fun toys to play with. I've not regretted putting him into my list at all.

aha and how does that rhino even get in the flamer range ? Because options that are "fun" in the void , but which will never actualy get used kind of a suck. I mean no IG player is jumping up and down , because their chimeras can swim .

 Jayden63 wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

So you take noise marine + lucius? How else are you getting twin doom siren.

Yup. You can only do it with one squad, but double templates out of the firing ports is a lot of fun if you can cover enough models. And once out of the rhino its a unit nobody really wants to charge either. Over watch hurts a lot. Also you now have a Noise Champion or Lucius to do challenges with, leaving the other to wreck havok on the squad when you charge in.

I think a lot of us who still run Chaos have learned to find the fun in the codex. Lucius is not considered a powerful or even competitive HQ choice by the internet at large, but damn he is fun and brings some fun toys to play with. I've not regretted putting him into my list at all.

I still run Chaos, and I'm still mehing.

I've stopped running him once his ride gets blown apart before he even gets halfway up the board.

I've stopped running him when the only melee that seems to be found is allmighty killers like the SM Chapter + shield and burning or ripper blade.

I play Slaanesh, not much is fun when your vehicles are blown out so easily.

Makumba wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

So you take noise marine + lucius? How else are you getting twin doom siren.

Yup. You can only do it with one squad, but double templates out of the firing ports is a lot of fun if you can cover enough models. And once out of the rhino its a unit nobody really wants to charge either. Over watch hurts a lot. Also you now have a Noise Champion or Lucius to do challenges with, leaving the other to wreck havok on the squad when you charge in.

I think a lot of us who still run Chaos have learned to find the fun in the codex. Lucius is not considered a powerful or even competitive HQ choice by the internet at large, but damn he is fun and brings some fun toys to play with. I've not regretted putting him into my list at all.

aha and how does that rhino even get in the flamer range ? Because options that are "fun" in the void , but which will never actualy get used kind of a suck. I mean no IG player is jumping up and down , because their chimeras can swim .

Personally, I like 'cover' for this.

If you have FMCs who swoop besides this infiltrating unit of 20 daemons then your opponent on turn one has to either dedicate their small arms fire to knocking your MCs out the sky or at the unit of 20 daemons that could be equally devastating.

Or a turn one assault if your opponent goes first. Or pick up the relic first turn.

I don't have time or patience to go through every example, you want me to be able to write you a list and tell you how to win with it in every scenario.

lol no. The way you were talking I was hoping you actually had something. You don't imo. Swooping FMCs just to babysit a demon squad? We are likely just playing in different metas. In mine no one is going to waste small arms fire on FMCs. The small arms fire will knock out the Demons while things with skyfire and possibly intercept will knock out the fmcs. Your concept is fairly easily countered. There's a reason why the people playing lots of FMCs in Demon lists are doing so by keeping them off the board for as long as possible.

Don't get me wrong either. It's not that I think there needs to be something that allows you to win every game. There's obviously a counter to everything. The key is how hard is it to enact that counter. So far most of the suggestions I've seen over the last year that don't involve a typical net list are also kind of grasping at straws and not that difficult to out fight (this includes my own ideas so please don't get the impression that I think I've figured anything out either). Even in your own example you're just taking CSM as the smaller allied detachment.

The closest I've come is with the armor saturation list I mentioned earlier. I figure "Hey, it's basically a 5th ed book so why not make a 5th ed list?". It seems to work because, generally people don't expect it. That said, it almost always gives up first blood (because of the Rhinos) and it doesn't have as many troops choices as I like. You're basically playing the game to kill things and contest objectives. It's different, it doesn't completely suck. It's still pretty weak though ...

Makumba wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

So you take noise marine + lucius? How else are you getting twin doom siren.

Yup. You can only do it with one squad, but double templates out of the firing ports is a lot of fun if you can cover enough models. And once out of the rhino its a unit nobody really wants to charge either. Over watch hurts a lot. Also you now have a Noise Champion or Lucius to do challenges with, leaving the other to wreck havok on the squad when you charge in.

I think a lot of us who still run Chaos have learned to find the fun in the codex. Lucius is not considered a powerful or even competitive HQ choice by the internet at large, but damn he is fun and brings some fun toys to play with. I've not regretted putting him into my list at all.

aha and how does that rhino even get in the flamer range ? Because options that are "fun" in the void , but which will never actualy get used kind of a suck. I mean no IG player is jumping up and down , because their chimeras can swim .

Its easy when you refuse to play on planet bowling ball. There is always LOS blocking terrain in the center of the board. Then you have to choose, do I shoot at the rhinos or the Bikers, or the maulerfiends racing up the table. And if you don't kill them all on turn 1 do you try to kill them on turn 2 and 3 and ignore the helldrake and or DP thats now on the table. All of which take advantages of the dirge casters that still are on the table.

Yes, this is a lot harder to do when facing against a gun line army. I don't win every game, and like I said, I've not tabled anyone in a long time, so I don't even try, I play to win the sinerio. But I usually get line breaker, my own objectives thanks to the durability of noise marines with banner. First blood can come if the other guy brought something squishy as Autocannon Havoks can pop a light transport just as easy as my light transports can be popped so its a bit of a toss up for that one. Slay the warlord... well that depends on entirely who the warlord is for the other guy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 StarTrotter wrote:
I must ask. What feels like an Emperor's children army? I've steadily grown to like them (I blame Noise Marines beating berserkers for second favorite cult marine). Obviously tons of Noise Marines but what else? Did they prefer mechanized or anything? I know you can't do it but noise bikers sounds silly fun (albeit they would probably be far too costly)

In my opinion, Emperor Children's armies only have two requirements. 1 - If a unit can take a mark, it must take Slannesh. 2 - no other marks allowed. A possible third one would be to keep all units that are not single model units in groups of 6 as that is Slannesh's sacred number, but as that possibly puts some heavier restrictions on weapon choices, I've loosened my opinion on that for the sake of competitiveness.

BTW - I love my biker squad. Banner of excess makes them very durable. I'm bummed that you can't put sonic blasters on them, but it never hurts to have two highly mobile melta guns.

The only army that is not a gunline I have seen people play is demons screamer star and that eats meq alive and nids which run around with biomancy and ignore str 5 flamers.

The only army that is not a gunline I have seen people play is demons screamer star and that eats meq alive and nids which run around with biomancy and ignore str 5 flamers.

Sorry to hear that! Gunlines are sooooo boring. My meta is, fortunately, relatively gun-line free. I hope it stays that way!

Tycho wrote:

You're basically playing the game to kill things

Thanks I hadn't realized that. I like how you picked on the vaguest example I gave to criticize rather than Infiltrating on the Relic, or assaulting on turn one.
Are they bad strategies? Well, like everything else in this game it is subjective.

We can argue what counters what forever, our metas are probably different too.

I can't tell you exactly what you need to take or do to win. You have to figure it out for yourself.

I've figured it out in my meta, the CSM codex does not suck and is fun to use.

Thanks I hadn't realized that.

Reading is fundamental my friend. "You're playing the game to kill things" was in reference to the strategy for my own suggestion (the armor saturation list). I was just saying that with that list the goal isn't to capture objectives but rather to kill your opponent's troops so that he can't. lol

Had nothing to do with you or your suggestions. Stop being so defensive.

I like how you picked on the vaguest example I gave to criticize rather than Infiltrating on the Relic, or assaulting on turn one.
Are they bad strategies?

That's part of my entire point. Almost everyone who says some variation of "the book is fine because tactics, there are no problems here, you can do it without the drake, etc etc" only ever posts the vaguest of vague examples and they are almost always sub-optimal to outright terrible. I keep hoping someone will say "hey! this is kind of cool, doesn't need drakes and is able to be decently competitive" but it hasn't happened yet. It's ALWAYS super vague and kind of random. Not looking for a face beater or a deploy and insta-win list either. Just something a little different that doesn't outright suck.

EDIT:

Also, I avoided commenting on these before because I didn't want to sound like I was just beating on you, but if you're going to call it out here you go:

Turn one assault is highly situational and still subject to overwatch AND (in this case) something the opponent isn't exactly going to be surprised by which makes it a very low percentage solution. Even in a friendly game. There's ways to do it where it can be brutal, but this isn't one of them and even with the right list it's still highly dependent on other factors. If you have something that will guarantee you the die roll in both getting the right player turn AND getting the right charge distance then great. But otherwise ...

Go ahead and grab the relic turn one. Seriously. If that's what you're doing and your opponents are not just relentlessly gunning you down ... please send some of them my way ....

We can argue what counters what forever, our metas are probably different too.

We can, but it's not necessary. Like I said, there's a counter to everything. The key is in how hard it is to enact that counter. I mean no offense to you with what I'm about to say but I haven't seen you point out anything that isn't fairly day one basic and easily handled by most new to mid level players. Yet the tone of your posts makes it seem as though you feel they are very strong strategies. Apologies if I've misunderstood you. The meta issue I'm sure doesn't help in discussions like this. Agreed on that.

I can't tell you exactly what you need to take or do to win.

No, you apparently can't.

the CSM codex does not suck and is fun to use.

Objectively ... it is a very weak book (all the way around from fluff to rules to units) at best. It CAN be fun from time to time though. It's just so filled with so many missed opportunities that it becomes hard to enjoy the precious little that is there.

I think the greatest weakness of the CSM codex is the weak fluff. Before the C:SM came out, all the defenders of the CSM codex would say that it was too difficult to make Legion rules and would cause havoc in internal balance etc. Then the New space marine codex comes out with chapter tactics and not only does it, but does it really well. I can easily forgive less than optimal unit choices if they fit the feel of the army and are fluffy. Our lack of predator and land raider options is not only weak, but unfluffy. The Warpsmiths are not encumbered by strict Mechanicum/codex thinking and can design or modify whatever they want. Yet the loyalists have all the choices. How hard is it to stick a blast master in the turret of a predator or a bale flamer on the side of a land raider? The Thousand Sons: NO special or heavy weapons, NO close combat ability = very unfluffy. In combat the 1K Sons act just like regular marines, not automata. they use power weapons, terminator armor heavy weapons and drive vehicles. World Eaters sucking = unfluffy. Demon Princes getting killed with one shot = unfluffy. It seems they go out of their way to make things non-competitive AND non-fluffy at the same time. I'm still using the chaos codex...but I'm not sure for how much longer.

 Musashi363 wrote:
I think the greatest weakness of the CSM codex is the weak fluff. Before the C:SM came out, all the defenders of the CSM codex would say that it was too difficult to make Legion rules and would cause havoc in internal balance etc. Then the New space marine codex comes out with chapter tactics and not only does it, but does it really well. I can easily forgive less than optimal unit choices if they fit the feel of the army and are fluffy. Our lack of predator and land raider options is not only weak, but unfluffy. The Warpsmiths are not encumbered by strict Mechanicum/codex thinking and can design or modify whatever they want. Yet the loyalists have all the choices. How hard is it to stick a blast master in the turret of a predator or a bale flamer on the side of a land raider? The Thousand Sons: NO special or heavy weapons, NO close combat ability = very unfluffy. In combat the 1K Sons act just like regular marines, not automata. they use power weapons, terminator armor heavy weapons and drive vehicles. World Eaters sucking = unfluffy. Demon Princes getting killed with one shot = unfluffy. It seems they go out of their way to make things non-competitive AND non-fluffy at the same time. I'm still using the chaos codex...but I'm not sure for how much longer.

I agree with everything but the Thousand Sons comment. Rubric marines have NEVER gotten special or heavy weapons, ever, and have always sucked in close combat. They ARE automata. Rubric marines are bullet shields for sorcerers and not much else, and have been that way since second edition. Now I will say their current rules are abysmal and are also a bad representation of the fluff (ditch the inferno bolts, reduce the invuln. save to a 5++ and make them more resistant to small arms instead, then reduce the cost per Rubric Marine and crank the sorcerer's damage output to compensate).

Tycho wrote:

It CAN be fun from time to time though. It's just so filled with so many missed opportunities that it becomes hard to enjoy the precious little that is there.

Then play a different army?

At least I am offering you solutions to your problem. What is your contribution? To just criticize every idea because if you can't win with the codex no one can.

Perhaps my advice is fairly day one basic easily handled by new players if your gaming group happens to all be in mensa. The codex and rule book have been out over a year it doesn't take a genius to learn any strategy this game offers.

You obviously hate the CSM codex so why do you punish yourself by playing it.

Tycho wrote:

That's part of my entire point. Almost everyone who says some variation of "the book is fine because tactics, there are no problems here, you can do it without the drake, etc etc" only ever posts the vaguest of vague examples and they are almost always sub-optimal to outright terrible. I keep hoping someone will say "hey! this is kind of cool, doesn't need drakes and is able to be decently competitive" but it hasn't happened yet. It's ALWAYS super vague and kind of random. Not looking for a face beater or a deploy and insta-win list either. Just something a little different that doesn't outright suck.

I could give you my exact army list for you to play. I could tell you what I would do each and every turn, but then its still me playing and not you. And once I shut my mouth, I will probably have won and you will probably loose. Why, because I've played my army over and over and over. I know what I can expect my units to do, besides what math hammer says. You can't win at 40k if you take a new list to game every week. You never will have the inner knowledge of what you can expect. And since I feel I know what I can tackle safely, I'll take risks with my units that others don't. They don't always work, sometimes they do. Sometimes the dice love me, other times they don't. Sometimes I'll fail all my 3+ saves, but make all my 5+ FNP saves. Things just happen. Also, unless your my neighbor, my meta is different than your meta. However, the basic rules of 40K never change. Shoot the assault stuff, assault the shooty stuff. If one is good, 2-3 is better. Use 100% of my army to fight 50% of theirs. Play to win the sinerio, not necessarily annihilate the enemy. Roll more dice, and as always, rock wins over scissors.

There are just bad match ups, but I gotta say. I like CSM chances vs Grey Knights, Bugs, Sisters, Guard, DE, Orks, many SM builds and their variants. Yeah, its a bit of a hard time vs eldar, Tau, and flying necrons (walking necrons not so much) but if your meta only sees the top dexs being played, maybe the problem isn't you, but them.

What is your contribution? To just criticize every idea because if you can't win with the codex no one can.

I actually mentioned one of my solutions several times. Before you get too much more up in arms about the "can't win" thing - I noted that while my idea doesn't work all the time it does still work occasionally and it's usually unexpected. I listed it's obvious flaws and mentioned what I typically need to do to get around them while admitting that it was still a uphill battle. I didn't just say "Armor Saturation. DONE." THAT is the kind of thing I typically look for in a suggestion. By contrast, your suggestion was "Infiltrate a squad of demons and use FMC's". Which A. basically requires you to NOT use CSM as your primary (in which case why bother when the subject at hand is CSM) and B. just isn't super helpful on the whole imo.

Perhaps my advice is fairly day one basic easily handled by new players if your gaming group happens to all be in mensa.

"Infiltrate a Demon squad" requires a MENSA level IQ to handle? lol You're fun. I like you.

You obviously hate the CSM codex so why do you punish yourself by playing it.

I do dislike it. It is so full of missed opportunities from "fun" things like synergy with Demons (like the potential Dark Apostle rule I mentioned earlier) to more competitive options that are good in tough games but not as crazy as the Heldrake.

On the other hand, I've played CSM since Rogue Trader. I have a massive amount of CSM models, and it's hard to let that much money sit on the shelf. I play them a hell of a lot less this edition and that amount gets less and less every passing day, but I'm still trying to find interesting different ways to be competitive with them. THAT is the challenge with this book. Can you overcome the inherent weakness of the book itself and that's why I still play them. So no. I'm not just automatically shooting down everything I see. Just looking for the strengths and weaknesses in suggested strategies. Too often the weaknesses outweugh the strengths.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

I could give you my exact army list for you to play. I could tell you what I would do each and every turn, but then its still me playing and not you. And once I shut my mouth, I will probably have won and you will probably loose. Why, because I've played my army over and over and over. I know what I can expect my units to do, besides what math hammer says. You can't win at 40k if you take a new list to game every week. You never will have the inner knowledge of what you can expect. And since I feel I know what I can tackle safely, I'll take risks with my units that others don't. They don't always work, sometimes they do. Sometimes the dice love me, other times they don't. Sometimes I'll fail all my 3+ saves, but make all my 5+ FNP saves. Things just happen. Also, unless your my neighbor, my meta is different than your meta. However, the basic rules of 40K never change. Shoot the assault stuff, assault the shooty stuff. If one is good, 2-3 is better. Use 100% of my army to fight 50% of theirs. Play to win the sinerio, not necessarily annihilate the enemy. Roll more dice, and as always, rock wins over scissors.

Yeah that's all true but it's not my point. You should still be able to give a few details. Not like "Ok take this EXACT list. Move this unit here first ..." but rather some kind of coherent concept. It may or may not fit with my meta or models and it may or may not work with how I play the game but it's at least a full coherent idea. Not "Dude, just take allies". That's the kind of vague I'm getting at. I could just as easily be spouting the same type of generalities without ever even thinking about it and that's the issue. Putting forth a more detailed description (doesn't even have to be morethan a paragraph) shows you thought out your concept and have possibly even tried it which always carries more weight with me.

There are just bad match ups, but I gotta say. I like CSM chances vs Grey Knights, Bugs, Sisters, Guard, DE, Orks, many SM builds and their variants. Yeah, its a bit of a hard time vs eldar, Tau, and flying necrons (walking necrons not so much) but if your meta only sees the top dexs being played, maybe the problem isn't you, but them.

Yeah, 6th ed is def. the edition of bad match ups. true TAC lists are hard to make. No my meta does NOT just see only the top books played. Army wise it's pretty varied. Tactically though, it's pretty strong and you really start to see how many bad match-ups CSM actually have when they aren't running a net list.

 Musashi363 wrote:
I think the greatest weakness of the CSM codex is the weak fluff. Before the C:SM came out, all the defenders of the CSM codex would say that it was too difficult to make Legion rules and would cause havoc in internal balance etc. Then the New space marine codex comes out with chapter tactics and not only does it, but does it really well.

As a Black Templars player I'd have to say I don't agree with that assertion at all.

You 'mentioned' one idea you had a few times. Thats great.

You can take a CSM Daemon Prince, a Lord of Change / Bloodthirster and a CD Daemon Prince in a CSM army that still has Huron as its Warlord.

3 FMC that don't have to worry about the Warp Storm or lean on Fateweaver for his Warlord Trait. Make one Be'lakor for invisible Lord of Change or Bloodthirster and see what happens. Or take Black Legion for some of their nice Wargear.

The FMC idea is a good one, not everyone has multiple units capable of Skyfire. And hitting a FMC with one is no guarantee that it will die or crash land.

FMC spam is only going to get more popular with the release of Escalation. They are ace at destroying super heavy vehicles, and they can't be hit by D weapons whilst swooping. And your opponent will probably not have much in the way of units to knock you out of the air if they've brought a Lord of War.

@ XT-1984

My plyon begs to differ about D weapons not hitting FMCs

EDIT: Oh and my flying bakery also begs to differ about not having much to back uo the lord of war

Even when Be'lakor Terrifies your C'tan and Hallucinates him to be pinned or can do nothing?

Or puppet master him and destroy a unit of yours?

EDIT: opps, Pylon! I haven't familiarized myself with all of the Lords of War yet but I doubt it will kill all 4 before they get there.

Have fun with your Night Scythes when I have a 2+ cover save on my Bloodthirster or Lord of Change and a 2+ invun or cover save on Be'lakor.

Thats why I simply shoot down the support units and then go for the head honchos (kill belly with pylon and grimoire holder with NS then go from there)

 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:

 Musashi363 wrote:
I think the greatest weakness of the CSM codex is the weak fluff. Before the C:SM came out, all the defenders of the CSM codex would say that it was too difficult to make Legion rules and would cause havoc in internal balance etc. Then the New space marine codex comes out with chapter tactics and not only does it, but does it really well. I can easily forgive less than optimal unit choices if they fit the feel of the army and are fluffy. Our lack of predator and land raider options is not only weak, but unfluffy. The Warpsmiths are not encumbered by strict Mechanicum/codex thinking and can design or modify whatever they want. Yet the loyalists have all the choices. How hard is it to stick a blast master in the turret of a predator or a bale flamer on the side of a land raider? The Thousand Sons: NO special or heavy weapons, NO close combat ability = very unfluffy. In combat the 1K Sons act just like regular marines, not automata. they use power weapons, terminator armor heavy weapons and drive vehicles. World Eaters sucking = unfluffy. Demon Princes getting killed with one shot = unfluffy. It seems they go out of their way to make things non-competitive AND non-fluffy at the same time. I'm still using the chaos codex...but I'm not sure for how much longer.

I agree with everything but the Thousand Sons comment. Rubric marines have NEVER gotten special or heavy weapons, ever, and have always sucked in close combat. They ARE automata. Rubric marines are bullet shields for sorcerers and not much else, and have been that way since second edition. Now I will say their current rules are abysmal and are also a bad representation of the fluff (ditch the inferno bolts, reduce the invuln. save to a 5++ and make them more resistant to small arms instead, then reduce the cost per Rubric Marine and crank the sorcerer's damage output to compensate).

I believe he's referring to the novels that show 1KSons rubric marines acting like space marines in combat. They aren't slow and sluggish, they'll headbutt you and groin stomp you with the best of them. It's only when they lose their sorcerer or aren't in combat that they become zombi-ish. And if the can use a bolter, why the _____ can't they use a melta gun or flamer? And them not being able to overwatch or pretty much anything else useful makes them painfully weak in CC. No heavy weapons, no special weapons, no over watch, no grenades, etc etc = 23pt model that kinda sucks at a lot of things.

@Tycho. Typing on my phone so quoting is out of the question.AnAnyway, my list is a Verizon of armor rush. Four rhinos, biker squad, two maulerfiends, heldrake, flying DP. We all race forward and for the most part are able to be where I want by turn 2. Pick your targets and hope the charge dice like you. The rhino squads usually can't charge until turn 3 but they have no issues hanging around for a turn delivering bladtmaster or doomsiren death.

But like I said earlier this is all much easier if the other guy isn't playing table edge gun line. Naturally. That's just one of the bad matchups for this list.

Correct. I was referring to the books that actually portray the 1K Sons. In the fluff\stories they act like regular marines in combat when they have a sorcerer. Now rules-wise, correct. They have never been like that. But I'm talking about having the rules fit the fluff, which would make them alot better.

 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:

 Musashi363 wrote:
I think the greatest weakness of the CSM codex is the weak fluff. Before the C:SM came out, all the defenders of the CSM codex would say that it was too difficult to make Legion rules and would cause havoc in internal balance etc. Then the New space marine codex comes out with chapter tactics and not only does it, but does it really well. I can easily forgive less than optimal unit choices if they fit the feel of the army and are fluffy. Our lack of predator and land raider options is not only weak, but unfluffy. The Warpsmiths are not encumbered by strict Mechanicum/codex thinking and can design or modify whatever they want. Yet the loyalists have all the choices. How hard is it to stick a blast master in the turret of a predator or a bale flamer on the side of a land raider? The Thousand Sons: NO special or heavy weapons, NO close combat ability = very unfluffy. In combat the 1K Sons act just like regular marines, not automata. they use power weapons, terminator armor heavy weapons and drive vehicles. World Eaters sucking = unfluffy. Demon Princes getting killed with one shot = unfluffy. It seems they go out of their way to make things non-competitive AND non-fluffy at the same time. I'm still using the chaos codex...but I'm not sure for how much longer.

I agree with everything but the Thousand Sons comment. Rubric marines have NEVER gotten special or heavy weapons, ever, and have always sucked in close combat. They ARE automata. Rubric marines are bullet shields for sorcerers and not much else, and have been that way since second edition. Now I will say their current rules are abysmal and are also a bad representation of the fluff (ditch the inferno bolts, reduce the invuln. save to a 5++ and make them more resistant to small arms instead, then reduce the cost per Rubric Marine and crank the sorcerer's damage output to compensate).

Problem is, they don't make good bullet shields anymore, lets study what made them effective at it

3.0: 2 Wounds, Unable to be harmed by Strength 4 and below shooting, could never charge into melee but always counted as stationary while shooting. 3 points more then plague marines

3.5: 2 Wounds.

4E/6E: 4++

Yeah this has gotten worse and worse over time, not to mention very poor spells on part of the sorcerer and they don't become effective, and then they gave them inferno bullets which like all AP3 they overcost for some reason...

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:

 Musashi363 wrote:
I think the greatest weakness of the CSM codex is the weak fluff. Before the C:SM came out, all the defenders of the CSM codex would say that it was too difficult to make Legion rules and would cause havoc in internal balance etc. Then the New space marine codex comes out with chapter tactics and not only does it, but does it really well. I can easily forgive less than optimal unit choices if they fit the feel of the army and are fluffy. Our lack of predator and land raider options is not only weak, but unfluffy. The Warpsmiths are not encumbered by strict Mechanicum/codex thinking and can design or modify whatever they want. Yet the loyalists have all the choices. How hard is it to stick a blast master in the turret of a predator or a bale flamer on the side of a land raider? The Thousand Sons: NO special or heavy weapons, NO close combat ability = very unfluffy. In combat the 1K Sons act just like regular marines, not automata. they use power weapons, terminator armor heavy weapons and drive vehicles. World Eaters sucking = unfluffy. Demon Princes getting killed with one shot = unfluffy. It seems they go out of their way to make things non-competitive AND non-fluffy at the same time. I'm still using the chaos codex...but I'm not sure for how much longer.

I agree with everything but the Thousand Sons comment. Rubric marines have NEVER gotten special or heavy weapons, ever, and have always sucked in close combat. They ARE automata. Rubric marines are bullet shields for sorcerers and not much else, and have been that way since second edition. Now I will say their current rules are abysmal and are also a bad representation of the fluff (ditch the inferno bolts, reduce the invuln. save to a 5++ and make them more resistant to small arms instead, then reduce the cost per Rubric Marine and crank the sorcerer's damage output to compensate).

Problem is, they don't make good bullet shields anymore, lets study what made them effective at it

3.0: 2 Wounds, Unable to be harmed by Strength 4 and below shooting, could never charge into melee but always counted as stationary while shooting. 3 points more then plague marines

3.5: 2 Wounds.

4E/6E: 4++

Yeah this has gotten worse and worse over time, not to mention very poor spells on part of the sorcerer and they don't become effective, and then they gave them inferno bullets which like all AP3 they overcost for some reason...

They're good anti-meq shooting, but literally that's it. They completely suck at everything else. Can they take on hordes? Nope. Can they take out vehicles? Nope. MC's? Nope. CC types? Nope.
1KSons = Poo.

And only if the MEQ are out in the open. So even their anti-MEQ crapability is limited. Oh man, I miss the days of having two wounds...alas...

Well, the only good thing about the chaos dex right now is, that it's not loyalists. So if you like marines but can't identify yourself with the imperium as it is - welcome to the warband, take your chainaxe and new decals.

The armory section is really compact. No HH toys, few weapon choices (why do chaos marines/havocs have no access to plasma cannons? and, if they are such new tech that they couldnt possibly have aquired them - why do your dreadnoughts and obliterators CAN take them?).

Also, you are almost forced to demonize half your army to get any results. I like the Alpha Legion, which should have the lowest mutation rate of all Legions, does no demon worship and is frequently supplemented by recent imperial stockpiles. If I want to stick to a fluffy list, I have to avoid at least 60% of the dex.

 MWHistorian wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:

 Musashi363 wrote:
I think the greatest weakness of the CSM codex is the weak fluff. Before the C:SM came out, all the defenders of the CSM codex would say that it was too difficult to make Legion rules and would cause havoc in internal balance etc. Then the New space marine codex comes out with chapter tactics and not only does it, but does it really well. I can easily forgive less than optimal unit choices if they fit the feel of the army and are fluffy. Our lack of predator and land raider options is not only weak, but unfluffy. The Warpsmiths are not encumbered by strict Mechanicum/codex thinking and can design or modify whatever they want. Yet the loyalists have all the choices. How hard is it to stick a blast master in the turret of a predator or a bale flamer on the side of a land raider? The Thousand Sons: NO special or heavy weapons, NO close combat ability = very unfluffy. In combat the 1K Sons act just like regular marines, not automata. they use power weapons, terminator armor heavy weapons and drive vehicles. World Eaters sucking = unfluffy. Demon Princes getting killed with one shot = unfluffy. It seems they go out of their way to make things non-competitive AND non-fluffy at the same time. I'm still using the chaos codex...but I'm not sure for how much longer.

I agree with everything but the Thousand Sons comment. Rubric marines have NEVER gotten special or heavy weapons, ever, and have always sucked in close combat. They ARE automata. Rubric marines are bullet shields for sorcerers and not much else, and have been that way since second edition. Now I will say their current rules are abysmal and are also a bad representation of the fluff (ditch the inferno bolts, reduce the invuln. save to a 5++ and make them more resistant to small arms instead, then reduce the cost per Rubric Marine and crank the sorcerer's damage output to compensate).

Problem is, they don't make good bullet shields anymore, lets study what made them effective at it

3.0: 2 Wounds, Unable to be harmed by Strength 4 and below shooting, could never charge into melee but always counted as stationary while shooting. 3 points more then plague marines

3.5: 2 Wounds.

4E/6E: 4++

Yeah this has gotten worse and worse over time, not to mention very poor spells on part of the sorcerer and they don't become effective, and then they gave them inferno bullets which like all AP3 they overcost for some reason...

They're good anti-meq shooting, but literally that's it. They completely suck at everything else. Can they take on hordes? Nope. Can they take out vehicles? Nope. MC's? Nope. CC types? Nope.
1KSons = Poo.

They aren't even good at it, they have to be 100% out of cover otherwise basic CSM beat them.

They aren't even effective at their main job. They are just straight horrible.

When I first read the new chaos dex I despised it. Now i just dislike it but thre are a few builds I enjoy using with my fallen army from time to time. I particularly love those slaneesh sorcerors and chosen are of course wolf guard on steroids essentially. Lascannon for havocs for only 20pts not bad. I seem to build lists with these units I would normally build with space wolf except they are even more potent. Good fun. Conversely, I think the sm dex is a boring peice of gak in entirety.

brother marcus wrote:
Hi guys today I had my first propped read through the chaos codex and its SOOOOOOOO much better than the loyalist one !!

The only thing I will miss is thunder hammers THAT'S IT!!

Am I missing something ??

Whatwhatwhat?!

Good luck with your Assault based codex!