Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 XT-1984 wrote:
What a lot of people forget is that with the allies system and the fact that Chaos Daemons are Battle Brothers, the two books might as well be one with some FOC restrictions.

Sure the CSM codex isn't great. It was never intended to be a stand alone codex.

Except that's bunk, it's not like the Inquisitor dex where it's intended to be a side-dex. It's supposed to be where both can stand well, but both can stand better.

In this case however, Daemons can stand far better alone then with CSM.

Well if it was intended to be a stand alone codex GW wouldn't sell as many books would they. Judging by their recent marketing I would say that is more than a reasonable assumption.

The allies system was reintroduced to encourage players to need more than one codex. And to perhaps begin a new army based on their small detachment they already own.

It certainly wasn't brought back because of consumer demand.

They could have put CSM and CD in the same codex, like they had done in 2nd, 3rd, and perhaps 4th I can't remember.

 XT-1984 wrote:
Well if it was intended to be a stand alone codex GW wouldn't sell as many books would they. Judging by their recent marketing I would say that is more than a reasonable assumption.

The allies system was reintroduced to encourage players to need more than one codex. And to perhaps begin a new army based on their small detachment they already own.

It certainly wasn't brought back because of consumer demand.

They could have put CSM and CD in the same codex, like they had done in 2nd, 3rd, and perhaps 4th I can't remember.

All before 4th.

And of course, if that was true we wouldn't need single dex eldar, single dex tau, and single dex daemons to rock tournaments.

I thought it was agreed that all the most cut throat competitive army lists do make good use of the allies system.

Taudar is better than just codex Tau. Chaos Daemons with a Heldrake is awesome too.

People who want a more competitive army need to look outside the codex for inspiration. Yes a lot of units in the CSM codex are bad in the game, its just a question of how badly you want to win versus how badly you want to use those Khorne Berzerkers in a game.

Because no amount of complaining here will change their stats or abilities any time soon.

 XT-1984 wrote:
I thought it was agreed that all the most cut throat competitive army lists do make good use of the allies system.

Taudar is better than just codex Tau.

People who want a more competitive army need to look outside the codex for inspiration. Yes a lot of units in the CSM codex are bad in the game, its just a question of how badly you want to win versus how badly you want to use those Khorne Berzerkers in a game.

Because no amount of complaining here will change their stats or abilities any time soon.

Actually taudar is worse in the rankings then tau/tau alliance.

The chaos codex can claim arguably better versions of:

Devastator squads, with units that can carry a mix of heavy and special weaponry and be customized for different roles.

Jump troop assault squads, with double special weapons, more customization, and larger squads. Not sure if they're cheaper.

Combat specific HQs, with more powerful named characters and juggerlords.

Cheaper objective squatting fodder, with cultists.

Air superiority, in heldrakes.

This isn't an argument that either codex is better or worse, just that on these specific points the chaos codex can be said to come ahead if comparing units in a vacuum.

Do you mean Tau with the Farsight supplement? Then that's more competitive than the stand alone codex. Proving my point.

But if you're talking about double force organisation that's just a whole mess that could never be considered fair for competitive playing. And I don't know many tournaments that use over 2k points.

Combat specific HQs, with more powerful named characters and juggerlords.

there is no way for any chaos csm HQ to be better at melee then a SM HQ with thunder hammer eternal shield scout , hit and run or IWND.

Makumba wrote:

there is no way for any chaos csm HQ to be better at melee then a SM HQ with thunder hammer eternal shield scout , hit and run or IWND.

Black Mace Daemon Prince, with his 'fail a Toughness test and be removed from play'.
Black Legion Daemon Prince with Skull of Kerngar and Spineshiver blade.
Abaddon the Despoiler
Be'lakor

Bloodthirster with two Greater Rewards.

And the humble Chaos Lord with Mark of Slaanesh and Murder Sword will make short work of any SM HQ who doesn't have Eternal Warrior.

 XT-1984 wrote:

Makumba wrote:

there is no way for any chaos csm HQ to be better at melee then a SM HQ with thunder hammer eternal shield scout , hit and run or IWND.

Black Mace Daemon Prince, with his 'fail a Toughness test and be removed from play'.
Black Legion Daemon Prince with Skull of Kerngar and Spineshiver blade.
Abaddon the Despoiler
Be'lakor

Bloodthirster with two Greater Rewards.

And the humble Chaos Lord with Mark of Slaanesh and Murder Sword will make short work of any SM HQ who doesn't have Eternal Warrior.

Or you know, a bike...

A bike won't save them from Instant Death if that's what you mean.

The Chaos Lord can take a bike too if it is the maneuverability you are considering.

What a lot of people forget is that with the allies system and the fact that Chaos Daemons are Battle Brothers, the two books might as well be one with some FOC restrictions.

Sure the CSM codex isn't great. It was never intended to be a stand alone codex.

It WAS intended as a stand alone codex as are all of the main codexes. Also, yes, Demons and CSM are battle brothers. That nets us what? Pretty much just a Heldrake for your demon army and a possible way to buff one of the dumbest units in CSM in the warp talons (using Fatey/Grimoire).

The two armies have no synergy at all (despite being battle brothers) and, baring Heldrakes, you are almost certainly better off just using straight demons.

People who want a more competitive army need to look outside the codex for inspiration. Yes a lot of units in the CSM codex are bad in the game, its just a question of how badly you want to win versus how badly you want to use those Khorne Berzerkers in a game.

Which is the crux of like ... half the responses in this thread.

Okay okay I give. I only looked through the chaos codex because I was going to start a pre heresy death guard army and do a chaos side led by thypon with loads of zombies and basically what I was going to use looked quiet effective and fun to play

But I was also going to do a loyal army and use garro and loads of tacticals and with my ears ringing at the comments in here I will probably use the loyalist one now lol

Thanks for the enlightenment

Tycho wrote:

It WAS intended as a stand alone codex as are all of the main codexes. Also, yes, Demons and CSM are battle brothers. That nets us what? Pretty much just a Heldrake for your demon army and a possible way to buff one of the dumbest units in CSM in the warp talons (using Fatey/Grimoire).

If you don't think the two codices share any synergy then you haven't read them close enough.

Not many decent CSM lists would be made worse by a unit of Flesh Hounds. Or a Lord of Change. Or a small unit of Plague Bearers for back field objectives.
Huron Black Heart or Ahriman infiltrating a unit of 20 Bloodletters or Daemonettes?

Likewise for Daemons the Heldrake is awesome of course.
Cultitsts can be quite hard to kill for their cost.
Black Mace Daemon Prince has his uses.
Kharn the Betrayer in a unit of 35 Cultists is a lot of Fearless, Scoring, Wounds that is no slouch in melee and is dirt cheap.


But I forgot the only builds worth talking about on the internet are the ones that will win national tournaments for which the game was never intended anyway.

 XT-1984 wrote:

People who want a more competitive army need to look outside the codex for inspiration. Yes a lot of units in the CSM codex are bad in the game, its just a question of how badly you want to win versus how badly you want to use those Khorne Berzerkers in a game.

Mmm... that's a little too extreme.

The CSM Codex is not really bad, per se, it's just not great. There are great codexes where you can build screamerstars, Farsight bombs, serpentspam, etc. CSMs don't have one of those, certainly, but it's not like you take CSMs and lose every game. You win some, you lose some, and other armies may win a little more than you.

If you look at the CSM players in the third tier of the NOVA open, the w/l ratio between them and many of the top tier players was only one win. I think what really separated them was points scored for capturing VPs and what not.

I think you guys are forgetting the biggest. Must always issuse and accept a challenge. A lord charged into my squad with khan, could have killed khan if he didnt have to issue a challenge......who I fed a SGt to him, letting khan eat the chosen

If you don't think the two codices share any synergy then you haven't read them close enough.

Not many decent CSM lists would be made worse by a unit of Flesh Hounds. Or a Lord of Change. Or a small unit of Plague Bearers for back field objectives.
Huron Black Heart or Ahriman infiltrating a unit of 20 Bloodletters or Daemonettes?

Lost on why you would do that though. Yes, I'm a fan of Flesh hounds. Not sure CSM needs mush help in the fast attack slot though. Seriously.
A Lord of Change is incredibly expensive. If CSM is your primary then the LoC still isn't going to give you a big enough bang for the buck. Plague bearers for back field scoring? Why? I have cultists for that (it's almost literally the only thing they are good for and I don't have to pay the ally tax). Also, the abilities of Ahriman (who is wildly over-costed) and Huron to infiltrate units could be used on the units you mention, but when Demons can so easily teleport (and have ready access to beacons) why would you bother? What you're describing here isn't really synergy.

Synergy would be more actual interaction between units/rules. Like if the Dark Apostle allowed you to take x number of Demon units as though they were part of the CSM Codex, or with combinations like using Grimoire on Warp Talons like I mentioned earlier. There's almost none of that. How about a Tzeentch spell or artifact that allows you to turn one squad of cultists into a squad of demons of the same mark (as though they had been possessed like in the old days with Greater Demons). The entire situation is an exercise in missed opportunity imo.

Likewise for Daemons the Heldrake is awesome of course.
Cultitsts can be quite hard to kill for their cost.
Black Mace Daemon Prince has his uses.
Kharn the Betrayer in a unit of 35 Cultists is a lot of Fearless, Scoring, Wounds that is no slouch in melee and is dirt cheap.

Agreed on the Heldrake. I can see using CSM as a small allied force just to get a 'Drake.
Cultists only become "hard to kill" when you mark them with Nurgle and have them go to ground in cover. At that point they are expensive enough that I'm not sure why you would pay the ally tax to get them when you could just have Plague Bearers do the same thing.

Black Mace Prince does have his uses. But with the current Meta you need to do an awful lot to keep him alive and in the fight long enough to start killing things.

Kharn and a unit of 35 cultists ... see my earlier post about the one time I've managed to get him into CC this edition. I LOVE Kharn, but suffice it to say, until Chaos gets reliable (and relatively reasonably priced) assault transports ... yeah good luck with that.

But I forgot the only builds worth talking about on the internet are the ones that will win national tournaments for which the game was never intended anyway.

Not really no. There are plenty of "interesting" builds. I have an armor saturation build that includes two Maulerfiends, two Helbrutes and a ton of Rhinos/Landraiders and Tanks for example. It's pretty interesting in terms of composition and it's fun to look at and fun to play. It's also a massively uphill battle in terms of consistent success. It just depends on what you're looking for.

Most of the people who say that CSM is crap either are just parroting internet gossip or play in a heavily competitive market. I still see tons of CSM armies around and they don't all have 3 helldrakes, though most do have at least 1. People still play CSM because its fun to be the uber bad guys and yeah, the units still work. So what if you take a unit of warp talons if the other guy brings assault centurons. Bad vs bad is still fun as long as its is equally bad on both sides.

Not everyone plays to udderly destroy the other guy. I myself run a very balanced Emperor's Children army and it functions very well. I haven't tabled anyone in a very long time with it, however if you keep your eye on the prize and make good tactical choices, you can still win. So I perfectly understand how someone might find the CSM codex interesting. No matter how bad it is being slammed by the internet, its still tons better than the last one and lots of fun if its the sort of thing that floats your boat.

 Jayden63 wrote:
Most of the people who say that CSM is crap either are just parroting internet gossip or play in a heavily competitive market. I still see tons of CSM armies around and they don't all have 3 helldrakes, though most do have at least 1. People still play CSM because its fun to be the uber bad guys and yeah, the units still work. So what if you take a unit of warp talons if the other guy brings assault centurons. Bad vs bad is still fun as long as its is equally bad on both sides.

Not everyone plays to udderly destroy the other guy. I myself run a very balanced Emperor's Children army and it functions very well. I haven't tabled anyone in a very long time with it, however if you keep your eye on the prize and make good tactical choices, you can still win. So I perfectly understand how someone might find the CSM codex interesting. No matter how bad it is being slammed by the internet, its still tons better than the last one and lots of fun if its the sort of thing that floats your boat.

Exactly. Most people I play with take the bad choices all the time, and so do I. It really gives those units a chance to shine. It allows you to experience everything the table top game has to offer.

 techsoldaten wrote:
The problem with the Chaos Codex is not that it's defective in some way, it's that no one knows how to make winning armies with it.

See example here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/571387.page

My apologies for contradicting the internet echo-chamber, but I kick ass with CSM, and without Drakes or Nurgle anything. For Khorne's sake if you want to play loyalists play loyalists, if you want to play Tau play Tau. Chaos thrives on synergy, and if you seriously can't work with the codex then team them with Daemons, traitor guard, ect.

 Jayden63 wrote:
Most of the people who say that CSM is crap either are just parroting internet gossip or play in a heavily competitive market. I still see tons of CSM armies around and they don't all have 3 helldrakes, though most do have at least 1. People still play CSM because its fun to be the uber bad guys and yeah, the units still work. So what if you take a unit of warp talons if the other guy brings assault centurons. Bad vs bad is still fun as long as its is equally bad on both sides.

Not everyone plays to udderly destroy the other guy. I myself run a very balanced Emperor's Children army and it functions very well. I haven't tabled anyone in a very long time with it, however if you keep your eye on the prize and make good tactical choices, you can still win. So I perfectly understand how someone might find the CSM codex interesting. No matter how bad it is being slammed by the internet, its still tons better than the last one and lots of fun if its the sort of thing that floats your boat.

Ex-fething-xalt!
I keep seeing the same weak criticisms of CSM...
"But Codex X has"... Then play codex X if you can't win (or think) without it. These oranges taste nothing like apples! What crap!
"There are NO options for this, except (lists 2 or 3 options)" Do I have to explain why this one is dumb?
I only played 3 Drakes and Nurgle units, therefore the codex is limited. Yeah, I learned playing Orks. CSM is as flexible as silly putty to me.

You can criticize CSM for other reasons, but man I get sick of this groupthink.

There are NO options for this: good transports.

If people indicated what list they played while saying that its still going decently, it would provide some more background. Anyone running a Tzeentch or Khorne list with cult troops? Its all fun and games except if most play competitively with eldar/tau/podding marines.

CSM has the best transport in the game in the rhino. Why? Because it can take dirge casters. Spamming dirge castes on rhinos (or anything else that can take them) isn't a bad thing at all. No overwatch means more of your choppy bits make it to where they need to go and get the job done.

My Noise marine choppy squads love them.

Tycho wrote:

Also, the abilities of Ahriman (who is wildly over-costed) and Huron to infiltrate units could be used on the units you mention, but when Demons can so easily teleport (and have ready access to beacons) why would you bother? What you're describing here isn't really synergy.

If you have FMCs who swoop besides this infiltrating unit of 20 daemons then your opponent on turn one has to either dedicate their small arms fire to knocking your MCs out the sky or at the unit of 20 daemons that could be equally devastating.

Or a turn one assault if your opponent goes first. Or pick up the relic first turn.

I don't have time or patience to go through every example, you want me to be able to write you a list and tell you how to win with it in every scenario.

 Jayden63 wrote:
CSM has the best transport in the game in the rhino. Why? Because it can take dirge casters. Spamming dirge castes on rhinos (or anything else that can take them) isn't a bad thing at all. No overwatch means more of your choppy bits make it to where they need to go and get the job done.

My Noise marine choppy squads love them.

Standing a turn in front of an enemy line while waiting to be able to charge is not all that great. Granted the dirge caster is very good, but the type of vehicle its mounted on isnt in the slightest.

Maybe were diverging from the discussion a bit, but CT are a very strong point on what makes a lot of the theming in the CSM dex a bit pointless.

There's a band aid for CSM, and his name is Belakor. I run him, Juggerlord with spawn, 2 heldrakes, and a bloodthirster that Grimories bloodcrushers. Fill in as points needed... Steamroll opponents. It's not tournament optimized, but seriously fun. Buckets of skulls for the skull throne.

As a CSM player, I poured over the new codex for a long time trying to find the right build that suits me. This is 6th Ed. where shooty is king, so I opted to go with the Ksons for their AP3 bolters, 3+ 4++ saves, and the fact that they can rapid fire those nasty AP3 rounds AND assault in the same turn. Now Ksons aren't going to win all by themselves, so I backed them up with a Vindicator, a Forgefiend, an AC LC Predator tank, a group of bikers to move around the board, and a LR filled with shooty Termies and my Sorcerer Lord. I gave as many vehicles that I could the warpstorm gargoyles for only 5 pts each, and also gave every squad that I could the icon of flame. So basically, every enemy unit on the table that takes an unsaved wound, rolls a D6, on a 4+ that unit takes D3 S 4 AP 5 hits that ignore cover saves....in essence I have almost doubled my shooting proficiency and/or output just by adding those cheap upgrades!!

I'm not a tourney player by any means and don't expect this army to win 100% of it's games, but it's a very fluffy mono-god list that pumps out an ungodly amount of high Str low AP shots per turn. Unless your going up against a deathwing Terminator 2+ save-fest, I think that this list would do quite well.


HQ Chaos Sorcerer
Termie armor
psyker level 3
sigil of corruption
MoT

(4) Chaos Terminators
icon of flame
MoT

Chaos Landraider

Troop (5) Thousand sons
icon of flame
Rhino
warpflame gargoyles

Troop (5) Thousand sons
icon of flame
Rhino
warpflame gargoyles

Heavy Forgefiend.

Heavy Vindicator tank
havok launcher

Heavy Predator tank
Autocannon
LC sponsons
warpflame gargoyles

Fast (3) Chaos bikers
(2) meltaguns
MoT

All this for the low low price of 1500 points!!

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:
CSM has the best transport in the game in the rhino. Why? Because it can take dirge casters. Spamming dirge castes on rhinos (or anything else that can take them) isn't a bad thing at all. No overwatch means more of your choppy bits make it to where they need to go and get the job done.

My Noise marine choppy squads love them.

Standing a turn in front of an enemy line while waiting to be able to charge is not all that great. Granted the dirge caster is very good, but the type of vehicle its mounted on isnt in the slightest.

Maybe were diverging from the discussion a bit, but CT are a very strong point on what makes a lot of the theming in the CSM dex a bit pointless.

Just because the core rules for assaulting suck, doesn't mean that units that assault suck in general. Nor the vehicles used to get them there. Each codex has to deal with the limitations the core rules have set upon us, CSM seems to do a pretty good job of working inside those rules. After all a rhino still has two fire points, perfect for twin special weapons, twin blastmasters, or my favorite, twin doom sirens. CSM imo actually get the most out of what the rhino has to offer thanks in part to its wargear and the highly customizable unit you can put in there.

 Jayden63 wrote:

 Disciple of Fate wrote:

 Jayden63 wrote:
CSM has the best transport in the game in the rhino. Why? Because it can take dirge casters. Spamming dirge castes on rhinos (or anything else that can take them) isn't a bad thing at all. No overwatch means more of your choppy bits make it to where they need to go and get the job done.

My Noise marine choppy squads love them.

Standing a turn in front of an enemy line while waiting to be able to charge is not all that great. Granted the dirge caster is very good, but the type of vehicle its mounted on isnt in the slightest.

Maybe were diverging from the discussion a bit, but CT are a very strong point on what makes a lot of the theming in the CSM dex a bit pointless.

Just because the core rules for assaulting suck, doesn't mean that units that assault suck in general. Nor the vehicles used to get them there. Each codex has to deal with the limitations the core rules have set upon us, CSM seems to do a pretty good job of working inside those rules. After all a rhino still has two fire points, perfect for twin special weapons, twin blastmasters, or my favorite, twin doom sirens. CSM imo actually get the most out of what the rhino has to offer thanks in part to its wargear and the highly customizable unit you can put in there.

So you take noise marine + lucius? How else are you getting twin doom siren.

 Boggy Man wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
The problem with the Chaos Codex is not that it's defective in some way, it's that no one knows how to make winning armies with it.

See example here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/571387.page

My apologies for contradicting the internet echo-chamber, but I kick ass with CSM, and without Drakes or Nurgle anything. For Khorne's sake if you want to play loyalists play loyalists, if you want to play Tau play Tau. Chaos thrives on synergy, and if you seriously can't work with the codex then team them with Daemons, traitor guard, ect.

 Jayden63 wrote:
Most of the people who say that CSM is crap either are just parroting internet gossip or play in a heavily competitive market. I still see tons of CSM armies around and they don't all have 3 helldrakes, though most do have at least 1. People still play CSM because its fun to be the uber bad guys and yeah, the units still work. So what if you take a unit of warp talons if the other guy brings assault centurons. Bad vs bad is still fun as long as its is equally bad on both sides.

Not everyone plays to udderly destroy the other guy. I myself run a very balanced Emperor's Children army and it functions very well. I haven't tabled anyone in a very long time with it, however if you keep your eye on the prize and make good tactical choices, you can still win. So I perfectly understand how someone might find the CSM codex interesting. No matter how bad it is being slammed by the internet, its still tons better than the last one and lots of fun if its the sort of thing that floats your boat.

Ex-fething-xalt!
I keep seeing the same weak criticisms of CSM...
"But Codex X has"... Then play codex X if you can't win (or think) without it. These oranges taste nothing like apples! What crap!
"There are NO options for this, except (lists 2 or 3 options)" Do I have to explain why this one is dumb?
I only played 3 Drakes and Nurgle units, therefore the codex is limited. Yeah, I learned playing Orks. CSM is as flexible as silly putty to me.

You can criticize CSM for other reasons, but man I get sick of this groupthink.

Well except for any notion of playing Tzeentch (or really any legion)

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

So you take noise marine + lucius? How else are you getting twin doom siren.

Yup. You can only do it with one squad, but double templates out of the firing ports is a lot of fun if you can cover enough models. And once out of the rhino its a unit nobody really wants to charge either. Over watch hurts a lot. Also you now have a Noise Champion or Lucius to do challenges with, leaving the other to wreck havok on the squad when you charge in.

I think a lot of us who still run Chaos have learned to find the fun in the codex. Lucius is not considered a powerful or even competitive HQ choice by the internet at large, but damn he is fun and brings some fun toys to play with. I've not regretted putting him into my list at all.