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So, the legendary Codex Astartes, it's a book, by a Primarch... the Ultramarines like it, a lot..

but what is it? Some people seem to assume it's just a "big book o'tactics" but honestly that doesn't jive right with the fluff. however I don't belive that myself. otherwise the UMs would be UTTERLY ineffective vs the 'nids and the 'crons. (two opponents Gulliman simply never dealt with and thus could not write up tactics for)

I also suspect that the vast majority of the Codex Astartes is based around the concerns of Gulliman at the time. the Codex was issued around the second founding. A time when the Space Marines where being re-orginized. while I suspect the Codex also has some battle stragety attached to it. the real MEAT of it, is on an orginizational level. and this is what the ultramarines focus on.

The Ultramarines will ALWAYS consist of 1000 marines (plus specialsits) orginzied into a veterns squad, 4 battle companies , 2 tac reserve companies 1 assault company, 1 devestator company and a scout company. and each of these companies will consist of the designated squads. you're NEVER going to see a "Ultramarine seige company" consisting of 4 tac squads, 2 assault squads and 4 devestator squads, you might however see that in a less codex chapter.


likewise the ultramarines will stick rigidly to the training regimes and path of service etc.

In short the Ultramarines are taticaly inflexable, but they're orginizationally inflexable.

Think of it less like an instruction manual or Sun Tzu book of war and more like a massive hoogephuck essay compiled from every source on war that's ever existed, organized into various topics.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Think of it less like an instruction manual or Sun Tzu book of war and more like a massive hoogephuck essay compiled from every source on war that's ever existed, organized into various topics.

It's also a bit counter intuitive to the operation of Astartes. While attempting to lessen their power is great in idea, it's likely there would be less traitors if they retained the pure pride that came from the original legions and their adamant loyalty as opposed to the seemingly weaker faith with descending Chapters. I severely doubt there would be as many non-original traitor warbands were the original Legions to remain in tight organization.

The CODECKS ASTARTES is the holy scripture from the Emperor put into writing by The SPIRITUAL LIEGE for the SPESS MEHRINES to use, it contains such tactics as STEEL REIN.

 Veteran of The Long War wrote:
it contains such tactics as STEEL REIN.

Man I love that song.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Think of it less like an instruction manual or Sun Tzu book of war and more like a massive hoogephuck essay compiled from every source on war that's ever existed, organized into various topics.

i like this idea, i picture it as more of a Karma Sutra, yeah sure it has the sexy warry stuff but it also has organisation, training, Code of Conduct for astartes and so on. i think we only really get a climpse of what it is all about.

At this point, it's an outmoded manual on war written by a guy who's throat got slashed by a pretty boy daemon prince, but the Ultramarines and successors still hoist it up as the One True Way to fight war, and is often in conflict with the demands of a shifting warzone. Some Ultramarines get that (Captain Titus), some do not (pretty much the rest of them.)

Basically, it's another relic of ages past that humanity is still desperately clinging to because innovation and personal growth is heretical.

SRSFACE wrote:
Some Ultramarines get that (Captain Titus), some do not (pretty much the rest of them.)

Captain Ventris gets it, if you look back at some of the captains of the 4th company they are usually the ones that ae more flexible when it comes to the teachings of the codex

Not to quote pirates of the carribean too much....but "they are more..."Guidelines" than actual rules" as far as I am concerned.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Think of it less like an instruction manual or Sun Tzu book of war and more like a massive hoogephuck essay compiled from every source on war that's ever existed, organized into various topics.

This. From a tactics standpoint, I imagine it full of advice and anecdotes. But with the understanding that the battlefield is a messy place, and no plan survives contact with the enemy. I suspect that a inflexible, literal reading might result in some of the flack that it gets, but that's not the spirit that it was written.

Newb Dev sergent: The codex says "Place your heavy weapons on the high ground, to increase their field of fire" so I'll set my squad on that hill.
Wiser Captain: Does the codex not also tell us "Line of fire works both ways" and the Tau outmatch us in long range shooting?
Sgt: But, but, The codex says…
Cpt: It also says "Shoot the choppy ones, and chop the shooty ones." set up in that valley to make sure no kroot infiltrate and disable the whirlwinds, while I and the assault marines outflank their gun line.
Sgt: Yes sir.

 Nevelon wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Think of it less like an instruction manual or Sun Tzu book of war and more like a massive hoogephuck essay compiled from every source on war that's ever existed, organized into various topics.

This. From a tactics standpoint, I imagine it full of advice and anecdotes. But with the understanding that the battlefield is a messy place, and no plan survives contact with the enemy. I suspect that a inflexible, literal reading might result in some of the flack that it gets, but that's not the spirit that it was written.

Newb Dev sergent: The codex says "Place your heavy weapons on the high ground, to increase their field of fire" so I'll set my squad on that hill.
Wiser Captain: Does the codex not also tell us "Line of fire works both ways" and the Tau outmatch us in long range shooting?
Sgt: But, but, The codex says…
Cpt: It also says "Shoot the choppy ones, and chop the shooty ones." set up in that valley to make sure no kroot infiltrate and disable the whirlwinds, while I and the assault marines outflank their gun line.
Sgt: Yes sir.

Just wait until someone reverse engineers it *cough*Farsight*unconvincingcough*, than all the SM plans will be easy to go around!

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

Just wait until someone reverse engenders it *cough*Farsight*unconvincingcough*, than all the SM plans will be easy to go around!

While I agree that having a solid knowledge of the Codex will grant an advantage, that will only last for so long. "Space Marines will generally fall into this pattern as a first option, switching to A or B when confronted with Y" But I think the Codex includes advice like "Predictability leads to defeat" and "If your enemy expects one thing, lead him down that path, then hit him from an unexpected direction" Remember that the Codex is a distillation of millennia of military wisdom, penned by a demigod. If armchair generals from the 20th century are thinking "That's lame, stupid, and easy to exploit" -WE- are probably wrong.

Which is why in my personal cannon, it's not some binary yes/no flowchart on how to fight. It's advice, wisdom, analysis of famous battle, and helpful tidbits. Tied together with the understanding that some/all of it might not be applicable to the situation at hand, that combat is fluid, and each situation is unique and needs to be treated as such by the commander on the field.

You guys are also applying "hope and reason" to the grim darkness of the 41st millenium, which is inherently NOT what Warhammer is about.

What the codex COULD be and what it represents to the actual spacemen that follow it are often very, very different things.

SRSFACE wrote:
You guys are also applying "hope and reason" to the grim darkness of the 41st millenium, which is inherently NOT what Warhammer is about.

What the codex COULD be and what it represents to the actual spacemen that follow it are often very, very different things.

Considering that the Ultramarines are one of the greatest Space Marine Chapters and like to adhere to the Codex it must be very effective (or at least the Ultramarines (generally) follow it correctly). It being treated so simplistically and blindly followed would likely have led to the Chapters doing so being wiped out or crippled.

also I seem to remember that in the Iron Snakes Book that the Codex has instructions for Disciplinary for squad commanders to use on there men.
I like to think that it has treatises on famous battles and is manual to aid in the act of turning the foes of the IoM into chunky salsa

SRSFACE wrote:
You guys are also applying "hope and reason" to the grim darkness of the 41st millenium, which is inherently NOT what Warhammer is about.

What the codex COULD be and what it represents to the actual spacemen that follow it are often very, very different things.

At the time it was written, the galaxy was not yet "full grimdark" it was only "proto-grimdark".

I like to think of it as a whole book full of quotes similar to those found on various unit entries in the last SM Codex. Explaining the role and symbolism of the unit simultaneously and also imparting wisdom and propaganda.


The other thing to consider is that is was written by a demigod, for the teaching of superhumans many times our own lifespan. It may not be possible for a human to understand its concept.

Its worth nothing that the Ultramarines have MULTIPLE incidents of getting their asses handed to them because of the codex.

The Tyranids and Necrons both ruined the UMs during their opening engagements because the book and nothing written to cover war against them and in the book "The Chapters Due" the UMs getting fethed up beyond belief because their Chaos Opponent had read the book and knew exactly what the Marines would do before they did it.

It tells Space Marines to do stupid honorable things like not use camo, follow arbitrary non sensical rules and to not do anything cool, ever, with a few exception.

 Psienesis wrote:

At the time it was written, the galaxy was not yet "full grimdark" it was only "proto-grimdark".

That's kind of the point, actually.

Everything in the Horus Heresy is very allegorical. All of the Primarchs were reflections of the Emperor, and pretty much all served to show the folly and dangers of power and command. Fulgrim was the dangers of vanity. Perturabo, the dangers of boredom. Curze, the dangers of a "win at all costs" mentality. Horus, the dangers of pride and rebellion. Even the loyalists show this kind of thing with their failures. Vulkan failed in large part due to trusting his brothers. The Lion failed due to his aloofness, ignoring those under his command until they grew resentful. Corax was the failure of being impatient, and it cost his future gene-seed dearly. Etc.

It's all very greek tragedy.

The Codex is an allegory for the Bible. What it is and once stood for is largely irrelevant because the people that follow and praise the book have become too blind to look beyond literal meanings. (FYI I am a devout Christian man, so I say this with a large deal of sadness.)

 Galdos wrote:
Its worth nothing that the Ultramarines have MULTIPLE incidents of getting their asses handed to them because of the codex.

The Tyranids and Necrons both ruined the UMs during their opening engagements because the book and nothing written to cover war against them and in the book "The Chapters Due" the UMs getting fethed up beyond belief because their Chaos Opponent had read the book and knew exactly what the Marines would do before they did it.

fighting ANY opponent whose totally new and unknown is a challange. yet again the fact that the Ultramarines can recover from this and hand 'nids and necrons defeats suggests two things eaither they're willing to diverge from the codex (but they follow it religously so it seems unlikely) or the Codex at least has a good deal of flex built into it

Well yes and no. It should be looked to as a symbol of a different age, and should be seen as an additional source material. But not thee source material. A great tactician does not become a great tactician because of reading the Art of War. He becomes great with practice and through skill.

Most Space Marines do not get this. And they believe that the more they study the codex the better they become, when it should be practice new tactics and react to your opponents moves.

A Tacticians goal is to see the entirety of the battlefield. Seeing it on a basic level is nothing good. A Tactician sees a battle as a chess game, he waits and sees what his opponents does and he moves against his opponent if he sees a sign of weakness. And most astartes are often glory hogs so they often chase towards the glory instead of staying in place and waiting for orders.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Well yes and no. It should be looked to as a symbol of a different age, and should be seen as an additional source material. But not thee source material. A great tactician does not become a great tactician because of reading the Art of War. He becomes great with practice and through skill.

Most Space Marines do not get this. And they believe that the more they study the codex the better they become, when it should be practice new tactics and react to your opponents moves.

A Tacticians goal is to see the entirety of the battlefield. Seeing it on a basic level is nothing good. A Tactician sees a battle as a chess game, he waits and sees what his opponents does and he moves against his opponent if he sees a sign of weakness. And most astartes are often glory hogs so they often chase towards the glory instead of staying in place and waiting for orders.

This is why the White Scars and the Raven Guard are best tasked with leading Astartes, and not the Ultramarines. The Ultramarines never really seemed to ever get the idea of stealth (nor did their successors), meanwhile the White Scars and Raven Guard are actually masterful tacticians and experts at stealth, ambushes, and mobility. I highly doubt Ultramarines would survive being dropped into an Ork-infested planet with no support at all besides their bolters.

In a previous sm codex (3rd ed.) there was - if memory serves me well... or was it the da supplement? - an excerpt from the codex astartes listing the common day in the fortress monastery. It went like: 05:00 wake, pray the Emperor, check your weapons 08:00 breakfast 08:10 training drills, 01:00 sleep time, and so on [I probably messed up a bit times and practises, but that is secondary]...
That said, I think the Codex is the sum of
- strategic and tactic tenets, as in Sun Tzu's art of war,
- a record of the basic rituals (detestation, manutention...),
- a "measure" similar to that of monastic orders (when and what to do the aforementioned rituals, plus when to eat, sleep, train, spar)
- aforisms and thoughts, mostly by Guilliman,
- the composition and structure of the chapter (chain-of-command, vets, battle, reserves, scouts, hq, vehicles, fleet, armoury, recruits..)
More or less, that's it.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Well yes and no. It should be looked to as a symbol of a different age, and should be seen as an additional source material. But not thee source material. A great tactician does not become a great tactician because of reading the Art of War. He becomes great with practice and through skill.

Most Space Marines do not get this. And they believe that the more they study the codex the better they become, when it should be practice new tactics and react to your opponents moves.

A Tacticians goal is to see the entirety of the battlefield. Seeing it on a basic level is nothing good. A Tactician sees a battle as a chess game, he waits and sees what his opponents does and he moves against his opponent if he sees a sign of weakness. And most astartes are often glory hogs so they often chase towards the glory instead of staying in place and waiting for orders.

This is why the White Scars and the Raven Guard are best tasked with leading Astartes, and not the Ultramarines. The Ultramarines never really seemed to ever get the idea of stealth (nor did their successors), meanwhile the White Scars and Raven Guard are actually masterful tacticians and experts at stealth, ambushes, and mobility. I highly doubt Ultramarines would survive being dropped into an Ork-infested planet with no support at all besides their bolters.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Assault_on_Black_Reach#.UstYdpV3uM8

 Kerrathyr wrote:
In a previous sm codex (3rd ed.) there was - if memory serves me well... or was it the da supplement? - an excerpt from the codex astartes listing the common day in the fortress monastery. It went like: 05:00 wake, pray the Emperor, check your weapons 08:00 breakfast 08:10 training drills, 01:00 sleep time, and so on [I probably messed up a bit times and practises, but that is secondary]...
That said, I think the Codex is the sum of
- strategic and tactic tenets, as in Sun Tzu's art of war,
- a record of the basic rituals (detestation, manutention...),
- a "measure" similar to that of monastic orders (when and what to do the aforementioned rituals, plus when to eat, sleep, train, spar)
- aforisms and thoughts, mostly by Guilliman,
- the composition and structure of the chapter (chain-of-command, vets, battle, reserves, scouts, hq, vehicles, fleet, armoury, recruits..)
More or less, that's it.

This pretty much, but what I believe is it main purpose is coordination with other chapters. It serves as a foundation, a common ground. If 2 chapters adhere to the codex then there would be less confusion or issues with coordinating efforts when task with working together. Less explaining tactics, maneuvers, etc.. Since both chapters have the same play book.

 6^ wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Well yes and no. It should be looked to as a symbol of a different age, and should be seen as an additional source material. But not thee source material. A great tactician does not become a great tactician because of reading the Art of War. He becomes great with practice and through skill.

Most Space Marines do not get this. And they believe that the more they study the codex the better they become, when it should be practice new tactics and react to your opponents moves.

A Tacticians goal is to see the entirety of the battlefield. Seeing it on a basic level is nothing good. A Tactician sees a battle as a chess game, he waits and sees what his opponents does and he moves against his opponent if he sees a sign of weakness. And most astartes are often glory hogs so they often chase towards the glory instead of staying in place and waiting for orders.

This is why the White Scars and the Raven Guard are best tasked with leading Astartes, and not the Ultramarines. The Ultramarines never really seemed to ever get the idea of stealth (nor did their successors), meanwhile the White Scars and Raven Guard are actually masterful tacticians and experts at stealth, ambushes, and mobility. I highly doubt Ultramarines would survive being dropped into an Ork-infested planet with no support at all besides their bolters.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Assault_on_Black_Reach#.UstYdpV3uM8

Fighting orks is easy. But wining a war against orks is different. In this terms it mentions no where that they dealt with the ork fungal spores.

 6^ wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Well yes and no. It should be looked to as a symbol of a different age, and should be seen as an additional source material. But not thee source material. A great tactician does not become a great tactician because of reading the Art of War. He becomes great with practice and through skill.

Most Space Marines do not get this. And they believe that the more they study the codex the better they become, when it should be practice new tactics and react to your opponents moves.

A Tacticians goal is to see the entirety of the battlefield. Seeing it on a basic level is nothing good. A Tactician sees a battle as a chess game, he waits and sees what his opponents does and he moves against his opponent if he sees a sign of weakness. And most astartes are often glory hogs so they often chase towards the glory instead of staying in place and waiting for orders.

This is why the White Scars and the Raven Guard are best tasked with leading Astartes, and not the Ultramarines. The Ultramarines never really seemed to ever get the idea of stealth (nor did their successors), meanwhile the White Scars and Raven Guard are actually masterful tacticians and experts at stealth, ambushes, and mobility. I highly doubt Ultramarines would survive being dropped into an Ork-infested planet with no support at all besides their bolters.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Assault_on_Black_Reach#.UstYdpV3uM8

Yeah, and he lost Terminators. That's not really remarkable for being on a planet for a short period of time. And what I was meaning was in months or even years on an Ork infested world. IIRC, Raven Guard have actually survived completely cut off in Ork territory for several years. I don't think the Ultramarine have ever survived cut off for such a period of time.
(Not to mention the Tyranids gave them a terrible thrashing.)

 Wyzilla wrote:

 6^ wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Well yes and no. It should be looked to as a symbol of a different age, and should be seen as an additional source material. But not thee source material. A great tactician does not become a great tactician because of reading the Art of War. He becomes great with practice and through skill.

Most Space Marines do not get this. And they believe that the more they study the codex the better they become, when it should be practice new tactics and react to your opponents moves.

A Tacticians goal is to see the entirety of the battlefield. Seeing it on a basic level is nothing good. A Tactician sees a battle as a chess game, he waits and sees what his opponents does and he moves against his opponent if he sees a sign of weakness. And most astartes are often glory hogs so they often chase towards the glory instead of staying in place and waiting for orders.

This is why the White Scars and the Raven Guard are best tasked with leading Astartes, and not the Ultramarines. The Ultramarines never really seemed to ever get the idea of stealth (nor did their successors), meanwhile the White Scars and Raven Guard are actually masterful tacticians and experts at stealth, ambushes, and mobility. I highly doubt Ultramarines would survive being dropped into an Ork-infested planet with no support at all besides their bolters.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Assault_on_Black_Reach#.UstYdpV3uM8

Yeah, and he lost Terminators. That's not really remarkable for being on a planet for a short period of time. And what I was meaning was in months or even years on an Ork infested world. IIRC, Raven Guard have actually survived completely cut off in Ork territory for several years. I don't think the Ultramarine have ever survived cut off for such a period of time.
(Not to mention the Tyranids gave them a terrible thrashing.)

Alright I will stop you there. I may hate the smurfs. But do not insult the awesomeness that happened with fighting against the tyranids. The Hive Fleet. An entire hive fleet with the very few ships they had. The fought on their planet they stopped it dead in its tracks.

They were not slaughtered as badly as everyone makes out. The First Company had one of the coolest land stands ever, under one of the greatest captains in 40k history. Sorry but If you have read the original material you will see it. It is almost as badass as the Space Hulk Deathwing Origin story. They fought against tyranid species that had never been seen before. They fought terrors that a space marine never had seen before.

Helk Space marine chapters were destroyed by hive fleets. (The Lamenters and the Emperor Scythes.)

Space Marines only become warrior monks after that I believe. That is when space marines became what we know today. The first company were more soldiers in the story than warriors.

But anyway, I agree now the Raven Guard are the best chapter for dealing with behind lines combat.

Codex Astartes is an interesting mix of a number of things:

1) It's the UCMJ of the Astartes
2) It's the Liturgy of the Astartes
3) It's the organizational structure of the Astartes
4) It's the training manual of the Astartes
5) It's the SOGs of the Astartes
6) It's the philosophical handbook of the Astartes
7) It's the tactical handbook of the Astartes
8) It's the history of the Astartes

Combine all that and take into account that almost all chapters interpret it differently and you will not get the same answer from every chapter, and likely not even from every company in a chapter. Even when talking about "Codex compliant" chapters we are really only talking about "complying with the organizational guidelines of the Codex" and not the Codex as a whole.

Raven Guard, White Scars, Imperial Fists, and Ultramarines are all "Codex compliant" chapters. But each of them interpret the Codex differently as shown by their interpretation of the situation at hand and implementation of tactics to deal with the situation.