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I'm going to be picking up a Dark Eldar army soon and really like the incubi and wyches.

From reading various sources though it seems shooting is king in 6th edition. I still think
an mainly assault focused army will work with some dedicated shooting elements, but
would love some outside input.

Not too sure about DE but I think shooty DE is the strongest. CC is certainly viable and daemon and soon nids (hopefully) are very strong CC armies. On torrentoffire daemons have one of the highest win rates and are entirely psychic/cc based.
DE beaststar can be good?

Nope. Only baron with a 2++ and some allied farseer to make a cheesy 2++ rerollable. Other than that...u need both speed and toughness to be viable in mellee. Numbers won't help.

Actually Tyranids, Orks and DE each have very strong CC capabilities. The main problem is it is hard to getting into range without getting shot to hell. Each of those three armies has a way to handle that either with Hordes(Tyranids and Orks) or Assault Transports(Orks and DE). Space Marines have an Assault Transport but it is far too expensive to field solely as such.

yes, CC armies are still viable and actually powerfull. The difference is that while in earlier editions all you had to do was shw up and auto win with them, now you actually have to use strategy and tactics to win. I'm sure that very soon, this thread will be inundated with spam cutting the game apart because this has been a hot topic between a loud vocal few and those of us who are tiring of listening to them and each time, more and more of us just let them vent. Try it out and you will see for yourself the truth of the matter though.
Indeed, remember spped is a huge factor as well as terrain set-up. You no longer can just casually stroll across planet bowling ball for the win, you have to make use of cover and LOS blocking terrain. Guns also play a larger role in the overall game so you will find that your CC troops will also now actually have to fire them once in a while.
Good luck and happy hunting.

I still really enjoy Incubi in my Dark Eldar army. Strength four, three plus armor saves, and AP2 weapons make them both survivable and deadly. Wyches on the other hand can be frustrating to field and often only do well if you can catch an opponent unawares. Your mileage may vary, but I would use wracks with liquifiers before wyches.

Yes they are viable... Does it take more strategy to get them into combat? If your not just playing Flying Daemon Circus, SeerCouncil with the Baron, then it does take some strategy to get them in there.

 EVIL INC wrote:
yes, CC armies are still viable and actually powerfull. The difference is that while in earlier editions all you had to do was shw up and auto win with them, now you actually have to use strategy and tactics to win. I'm sure that very soon, this thread will be inundated with spam cutting the game apart because this has been a hot topic between a loud vocal few and those of us who are tiring of listening to them and each time, more and more of us just let them vent. Try it out and you will see for yourself the truth of the matter though.
Indeed, remember spped is a huge factor as well as terrain set-up. You no longer can just casually stroll across planet bowling ball for the win, you have to make use of cover and LOS blocking terrain. Guns also play a larger role in the overall game so you will find that your CC troops will also now actually have to fire them once in a while.
Good luck and happy hunting.

Please don't listen to this. CC is horribly nerfed and all the tournament results show it. This post is borderline lying if you look at it from an objective and mathematical point of view.

Most CC troops don't have any guns worth firing so I don't even know what that part of the post is about.

 Dezstiny wrote:
Yes they are viable... Does it take more strategy to get them into combat? If your not just playing Flying Daemon Circus, SeerCouncil with the Baron, then it does take some strategy to get them in there.

This. You need to plan your army and approach rather than just sitting and shooting. You'll find that this can give you the advantage in Objective games though, as you can lock people in to board edges and similar things.

Keep in mind what an assault unit is though. It either needs to be fast and deadly or tough and killy. A slow, fragile unit will never make it. Similarly, ensure you give target saturation - give them too many targets to shoot and one will get through. Just make it count.

Some shooting armies will blow you off the table, sometimes that's just how it goes. But theres nothing quite like the feeling of a choppa in your hand

Dark Eldar cc armies took a huge hit in 6th. Right now they are better shooting. But if you do, Grotesques and Wracks would be your best bet.

 AdeptSister wrote:
Dark Eldar cc armies took a huge hit in 6th. Right now they are better shooting. But if you do, Grotesques and Wracks would be your best bet.

this, have a cheap haeme in there and pass out some pain tokens, of course beast pack is pretty beastly also. As said above it is stll viable but much more delicate to weasel in, especially on mas overwatching tau.

Depends what 'viable' means.

Outside of some previously mentioned, horribly broken 2++ rerolls, assault dies off long before reaching the top tiers of competitive gaming.

For casual games with your mates, or 'semi-competitive' games where people aren't looking to actually break 40k with ridiculous combos, it works but you'll almost always be underwhelmed with it

DE can still do assault, but the lynchpin of DE assault is built on the effectiveness of the beastpack. Beastpacks are dead lethal, tough, and not breaking the bank on cost. Incubi are deadly but expensive, and easily killed/wasted on non prime targets. Wytches are really weak for CC power unless you want to haywire tanks or tarpit MC's. Wracks and Grotesques are the other good CC units if you want them, and they do not compete with beastpacks for a slot.

If I was going to run a CC DE army, it would look something like this
HQ
Baron
Hamey
ELITE
Grotesques 1-2. Maybe incubi, maybe.
TROOPS
Wracks3-5. Maybe 1-2 wytches
FAST
Beastpacks1-2
HEAVY
RavagersX3 or Triple talos

All units that can get a transport would have a venom or raider based on size.

Assault is not dead, but shooting is very powerful. As others have said, you need multiple fast threats that are tough and dangerous, along with skill.

Wytches are really weak for CC power unless you want to haywire tanks or tarpit MC's.

Seconding this. God, for elite warrior gladiatoresses, Wyches are bloody awful at actual fighting. Not to mention they can almost never get to hand to hand

It's often been said
close combat is dead
the forums repeat it en masse.
But melee's alive,
it's going to survive,
although it's a pain in the a--.

Khorne berserkers are neat
with Kharn in the lead
and Carcharodons get free attacks.
If Urien Rakarth's your thing,
you'll be wanting to bring
a boatload of Grotesques and Wracks.

Even Necrons can score
with Scarabs galore
and monstrous Spyders pooping them out.
A mindshackled leader
will make combat the sweeter
for stabbing himself in the snout.

When the ball's in their court
(and they've got Wave Serpent support)
even Eldar can manage this game!
But to be totally fair,
they've monstrous creatures to spare,
like Wraithlords, Wraithknights, and Khaine.

If you like the elite,
Grey Knights can't be beat,
with Inquisitors psyking them, too.
They've got unbelievable saves,
and as everyone raves,
they've got power weapons out the wazoo.

Have I mentioned Orks yet?
As if you could forget!
A punch-up's the thing that they love!
With big Power Klaws,
and all manner of Nobz,
they are to melee as hand is to glove!

So when they say melee's rigid,
'cause Overwatch killed it,
don't bother to call them a liar.
And don't you dare buy it,
just start up a riot!
(But watch out for Supporting Fire!)

^Thirsty for an exalt.

Anyway, CC armies are "viable" in the same sense that using a 500-point army is "viable" against an 1500-point army. If I'm a REALLY good general I can make up for the utterly massive advantage my opponent has.

Similarly, if you want to run a melee-army in an environment that isn't "beer n' pretzels", it's possible to do well, but you're going to have to play a lot smarter than your opponent in order to bridge the gap.

 Jimsolo wrote:
It's often been said
close combat is dead
the forums repeat it en masse.
But melee's alive,
it's going to survive,
although it's a pain in the a--.

Khorne berserkers are neat
with Kharn in the lead
and Carcharodons get free attacks.
If Urien Rakarth's your thing,
you'll be wanting to bring
a boatload of Grotesques and Wracks.

Even Necrons can score
with Scarabs galore
and monstrous Spyders pooping them out.
A mindshackled leader
will make combat the sweeter
for stabbing himself in the snout.

When the ball's in their court
(and they've got Wave Serpent support)
even Eldar can manage this game!
But to be totally fair,
they've monstrous creatures to spare,
like Wraithlords, Wraithknights, and Khaine.

If you like the elite,
Grey Knights can't be beat,
with Inquisitors psyking them, too.
They've got unbelievable saves,
and as everyone raves,
they've got power weapons out the wazoo.

Have I mentioned Orks yet?
As if you could forget!
A punch-up's the thing that they love!
With big Power Klaws,
and all manner of Nobz,
they are to melee as hand is to glove!

So when they say melee's rigid,
'cause Overwatch killed it,
don't bother to call them a liar.
And don't you dare buy it,
just start up a riot!
(But watch out for Supporting Fire!)

I dig this beat! Hahaha

 Jimsolo wrote:

Spoiler:

It's often been said
close combat is dead
the forums repeat it en masse.
But melee's alive,
it's going to survive,
although it's a pain in the a--.

Khorne berserkers are neat
with Kharn in the lead
and Carcharodons get free attacks.
If Urien Rakarth's your thing,
you'll be wanting to bring
a boatload of Grotesques and Wracks.

Even Necrons can score
with Scarabs galore
and monstrous Spyders pooping them out.
A mindshackled leader
will make combat the sweeter
for stabbing himself in the snout.

When the ball's in their court
(and they've got Wave Serpent support)
even Eldar can manage this game!
But to be totally fair,
they've monstrous creatures to spare,
like Wraithlords, Wraithknights, and Khaine.

If you like the elite,
Grey Knights can't be beat,
with Inquisitors psyking them, too.
They've got unbelievable saves,
and as everyone raves,
they've got power weapons out the wazoo.

Have I mentioned Orks yet?
As if you could forget!
A punch-up's the thing that they love!
With big Power Klaws,
and all manner of Nobz,
they are to melee as hand is to glove!

So when they say melee's rigid,
'cause Overwatch killed it,
don't bother to call them a liar.
And don't you dare buy it,
just start up a riot!
(But watch out for Supporting Fire!)

This is the best post about the subject in a long time.

All the debate about assault versus shooting is centered around what's competitive. In most games, against people who don't declare themselves competitive, you can do well with assault units. They key is tactics.

For me, I like to take a large squad of bikers and turbo-boost them up the board. The worst that is going to happen is needing to make some saves along the way.

Certain players will tell you this is foolish, but the number one rule of assault is taking risks. The bikers will get there most of the time and make a horrific assault. My opponents will spend a lot of time trying to shoot them up, and everything else in my army gets to move up the board.

Anyways, that's what it's like for me.

It is useful to also think of assault as a means to deny the ability for a unit to shoot to the enemy rather simply a means to kill enemy models.

It depends on what you mean by CC.

Many units that are classed as CC units by Games Workshop are almost completely incapable of doing their job this edition. Some are still capable of getting into and winning a close combat. These units are typically fast and durable. This means monstrous creatures (mostly FMCs or Jump/Jet MCs), Beasts (Spawn/DE BeastPack) or Deathstars (Screamerstar/Jetseer Council).

In your case, Incubi are alright in cc if their transport survives (never ever footslog them), Wyches less so. Wyches are best used (imo) as a group of 5 in a venom with Haywire Grenades, to kill a vehicle and then die horrible deaths. You have the advantage of having Fast Open-Topped Vehicles galore in Dark Eldar, so you're better off than say, Marines, but your guys are very squishy in combat, and your vehicles are too. Incubi have enough killing power to make a difference though.

CC is horribly nerfed and all the tournament results show it. This post is borderline lying if you look at it from an objective and mathematical point of view.

Since 6th has dropped, there have been Wraith Wing, Power Blobs, FMC spam that have all had major components in tournament placing lists and all are heavily focused on CC. And that's just off the top of my head.

In short, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

 Jimsolo wrote:
It's often been said
close combat is dead
the forums repeat it en masse.
But melee's alive,
it's going to survive,
although it's a pain in the a--.

Khorne berserkers are neat
with Kharn in the lead
and Carcharodons get free attacks.
If Urien Rakarth's your thing,
you'll be wanting to bring
a boatload of Grotesques and Wracks.

Even Necrons can score
with Scarabs galore
and monstrous Spyders pooping them out.
A mindshackled leader
will make combat the sweeter
for stabbing himself in the snout.

When the ball's in their court
(and they've got Wave Serpent support)
even Eldar can manage this game!
But to be totally fair,
they've monstrous creatures to spare,
like Wraithlords, Wraithknights, and Khaine.

If you like the elite,
Grey Knights can't be beat,
with Inquisitors psyking them, too.
They've got unbelievable saves,
and as everyone raves,
they've got power weapons out the wazoo.

Have I mentioned Orks yet?
As if you could forget!
A punch-up's the thing that they love!
With big Power Klaws,
and all manner of Nobz,
they are to melee as hand is to glove!

So when they say melee's rigid,
'cause Overwatch killed it,
don't bother to call them a liar.
And don't you dare buy it,
just start up a riot!
(But watch out for Supporting Fire!)

Wishing I could hit exalt more times for this!!

OT, Melee is not dead, it is just an extra challenge to achieve.

i dont think CC will ever die, my brother uses a mostly bezerker army against my DA and unless i can get enough of them in the first turn i dont stand a chance.

not sure about DE though never played them so i have no experience

ShadarLogoth wrote:

CC is horribly nerfed and all the tournament results show it. This post is borderline lying if you look at it from an objective and mathematical point of view.

Since 6th has dropped, there have been Wraith Wing, Power Blobs, FMC spam that have all had major components in tournament placing lists and all are heavily focused on CC. And that's just off the top of my head.

In short, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

Wraithwing wasn't a thing so much as the Flying Dedicated Transports backing it up, Power Blobs weren't taken for their melee prowess (and indeed the "power" part was removed entirely, because you don't want it to actually fight, just to stand around with a 4++ and ATSKNF), and FMC spam is one army.

How many times have Necron Airforces, Triptide-lists, TauDar, Serpent Spam, and other shooting lists won compared to the few times that lists including some sort of melee element have?

For someone claiming that Power Blobs were taken for their melee prowess, you sure like telling people they have no idea what they're talking about...

 Jimsolo wrote:
It's often been said
close combat is dead
the forums repeat it en masse.
But melee's alive,
it's going to survive,
although it's a pain in the a--.

Khorne berserkers are neat
with Kharn in the lead
and Carcharodons get free attacks.
If Urien Rakarth's your thing,
you'll be wanting to bring
a boatload of Grotesques and Wracks.

Even Necrons can score
with Scarabs galore
and monstrous Spyders pooping them out.
A mindshackled leader
will make combat the sweeter
for stabbing himself in the snout.

When the ball's in their court
(and they've got Wave Serpent support)
even Eldar can manage this game!
But to be totally fair,
they've monstrous creatures to spare,
like Wraithlords, Wraithknights, and Khaine.

If you like the elite,
Grey Knights can't be beat,
with Inquisitors psyking them, too.
They've got unbelievable saves,
and as everyone raves,
they've got power weapons out the wazoo.

Have I mentioned Orks yet?
As if you could forget!
A punch-up's the thing that they love!
With big Power Klaws,
and all manner of Nobz,
they are to melee as hand is to glove!

So when they say melee's rigid,
'cause Overwatch killed it,
don't bother to call them a liar.
And don't you dare buy it,
just start up a riot!
(But watch out for Supporting Fire!)

I think you've earned an exalt....I loved this.
Well played

Speed is the most important thing for CC right now. I feel like a lot of armies have more mobile options in 6th.

A properly geared GUO will murder just about everything and anything in CC, as it has plenty of instant death attacks and enough wounds and toughness to survive whatever you throw at it. With the proper rolls, it has EW too.

However it moves at 6" and cannot run. That is 4 turns to get 24 inches, so people don't run him that often.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

CC is horribly nerfed and all the tournament results show it. This post is borderline lying if you look at it from an objective and mathematical point of view.

Since 6th has dropped, there have been Wraith Wing, Power Blobs, FMC spam that have all had major components in tournament placing lists and all are heavily focused on CC. And that's just off the top of my head.

In short, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

It happens, but not that often. And there is also the concept of bringing a wild card list. But, in general, assault is vastly inferior to shooting at the moment. To claim anything else is disingenuous.

Hardly. If anything, I'd call saying 'assault is vastly inferior to shooting' disingenuous.

Seriously though, assault is totally viable in this edition, even an assault-focused army. It just isn't the 'run-into-everything-chin-first' slugfest that it was in previous editions. The addition of random charge ranges and overwatch, as well as melee AP values, has made assault tactics require a modicum of forethought and strategy. You know, like shooting lists.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Hardly. If anything, I'd call saying 'assault is vastly inferior to shooting' disingenuous.

Seriously though, assault is totally viable in this edition, even an assault-focused army. It just isn't the 'run-into-everything-chin-first' slugfest that it was in previous editions. The addition of random charge ranges and overwatch, as well as melee AP values, has made assault tactics require a modicum of forethought and strategy. You know, like shooting lists.

See sig. Shooting was already dominant in 5th, claiming that it was "run-into-everything-chin-first" IS disingenious.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Jimsolo wrote:
Hardly. If anything, I'd call saying 'assault is vastly inferior to shooting' disingenuous.

Seriously though, assault is totally viable in this edition, even an assault-focused army. It just isn't the 'run-into-everything-chin-first' slugfest that it was in previous editions. The addition of random charge ranges and overwatch, as well as melee AP values, has made assault tactics require a modicum of forethought and strategy. You know, like shooting lists.

See sig. Shooting was already dominant in 5th, claiming that it was "run-into-everything-chin-first" IS disingenious.

Shooting was indeed dominant in 5th. Which is why I didn't specify an edition in my post. But when I got into 40k in the tail end of 3rd/beginning of 4th, I rarely if ever saw shooting-heavy lists win over assault-oriented lists. 5th certainly helped bring the two styles closer into balance. And 6th has done so even more.