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Rapture wrote:

 Dr. Delorean wrote:

"BLAST WEAPONS AND RE-ROLLS
If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit AND chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2d6"

Does being able to re-roll 1s constitute "the ability to re-roll its rolls to hit" for this purpose? Or would I need something that gave me re-rolls unconditional of what I actually rolled on the dice?

Sorry if this question has been asked many times before, I checked the front page of YMDC and couldn't see anything on it.

Thanks for your help!

Any re-roll qualifies as an ability to re-roll no matter how limited the circumstances. Howerer, the citation that you provided (emphasis mine) requires two things:

1) Does the model have the ability to re-roll To Hit rolls?

2) Did the model choose to do so after firing a blast weapon?

Most people are ignoring question 2. This issue is really determined by the fact that a model firing a blast weapon can never choose to re-roll a To Hit roll when firing a blast weapon because models firing blast weapons do not roll To Hit (see BRB p33).

So, neither prescience, BS6+, preferred enemy, nor the ECPA allow a model to re-roll the scatter dice.

If you roll with that definition, then absolutly nothing does, and the whole paragraph is irrelevant.

So no, we know that is not the case.

Indeed; that definition means no one can Reroll, ever.

Luckily, that does not set out what need in order to Reroll blasts - it simply tells you how to do so.

I have a Reroll to hit - reroll ones - therefore I can reroll blasts. If I choose to use this reroll, I then follow page five,

If a anyone can prove a conditional exists - no one has as yet - then we're there.

The issue is if blast weapons require an unconditional reroll then no rule qualifies as every reroll has some condition (i.e. rerolling all missed to hit).

The other end of the spectrum is we remove all conditions so as long it is possible for you to get a reroll then you get to reroll blast which means every one gets rerolls all the time (my opponent could have had a psyker that had Objuration Mechanicum and he could have cast it on my unit and I could have rolled a 6).

Personally I believe both readings are valid raw and both are equally dumb. Most people will assume some conditions have to count and claim their set of conditions is RaW.

Ok, so i'm just curious on the preferred enemy part of this dumb argument...

If a model has pref enemy (orks) and shoots nids, the model indeed does not have any form of reroll. As i see it, the ability to reroll is not existing when shooting anything else than orks.

1: Choose target (nids)
2: check for any rules giving the ability to reroll (model firing is a space marine with a standard frag missile with only the Special rule preferred enemy (orks) that does not trigger as the target is not orks)
3: place template and roll scatter and 2d6.
4: roll a scatter result and 12 on 2d6 and miss. (no way to reroll as the special rule was never triggered, granting the ability to reroll as the target is not an ork, or any model from the codex orks.)

Why is this wrong?

And for the other special rules there are some that could qualify to give an ability to reroll, but not prefered enemy (x) against (y).

2: check for any rules giving the ability to reroll (model firing is a space marine with a standard frag missile with only the Special rule preferred enemy (orks) that does not trigger as the target is not orks)

Explain why it is different that you use the condition (firing at Orks) but not the condition (rolling a 1 to hit).

I have a question that i'd like to have answered from the "con-reroll"-side.

Your argument is that "rerolling 1s to hit" is not the same as "reroll to hit" and therefor doesnt count when determining if you qualify as "having a reroll to hit" when shooting a blast weapon?

 Steel-W0LF wrote:


If you roll with that definition, then absolutly nothing does, and the whole paragraph is irrelevant.

So no, we know that is not the case.

"If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit AND chooses to do so after firing a Blast weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2d6." BRB p33.

The problem is that the rule on p33 is not a 'definition' - it is a rule. Do you disagree that that it is a two part test? Why else would the authors use "and" in that sentence? This is why Twin-linked gives its own, independent permission to re-roll the scatter dice, because p33 would not allow it.

If not the rule on p33 (the two part conditional test) then what rule are you using to give yourself the permission to re-roll the scatter dice?

It isn't our job to to disregard RAW in favor of making rule language allow for more than it would otherwise allow for. The OP asked what the rules say, so HIWPI and RAI are part of a different discussion.

Rapture wrote:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:


If you roll with that definition, then absolutly nothing does, and the whole paragraph is irrelevant.

So no, we know that is not the case.

The problem is that the rule on p33 is not a 'definition' - it is a rule. Do you disagree that that it is a two part test? Why else would the authors use "and" in that sentence.

It isn't our job to to disregard RAW in favor of making rule language allow for more than it would otherwise allow for. The OP asked what the rules say, so HIWPI and RAI are part of a different discussion.

His answer wasnt RAI or HIWPI at all.

If you say that only a blanket unconditioned ability to reroll to hit dice qualifies as having a reroll to hit than NO ability grants a "reroll to hit" when shooting with blast weapons (except maybe twin linked - im not at my book to check the wording). This is because "reroll all failed to hit" already has a condition. This condition is "having failed the to hit" dice before getting granted a reroll. Just like "rerolling 1s to hit" where the condition is "roll a 1 on the hit die".

So its only one way or the other. IF the blast rule would care about conditionals (which it doesnt) you wouldnt be able to reroll to hit with blast weapons at all except if you have a blanket unconditional ability to reroll to hit.

This is the flaw in the contra argument.

 Mywik wrote:


If you say that only a blanket unconditioned ability to reroll to hit dice qualifies as having a reroll to hit than NO ability grants a "reroll to hit" when shooting with blast weapons (except maybe twin linked - im not at my book to check the wording). This is because "reroll all failed to hit" already has a condition. This condition is "having failed the to hit" dice before getting granted a reroll. Just like "rerolling 1s to hit" where the condition is "roll a 1 on the hit die".

So its only one way or the other. IF the blast rule would care about conditionals (which it doesnt) you wouldnt be able to reroll to hit with blast weapons at all except if you have a blanket unconditional ability to reroll to hit.

This is the flaw in the contra argument.

You need to re-read what I said. I don't care about whether the ability to re-roll 1 is the ability to re-roll To Hit dice (it is, by the way). What matters is that the rule that people are arguing grants them a re-roll of the scatter dice contains two prongs before, assuming that it does grant a re-roll, re-rolling the scatter dice is allowed.

The rule on p33 says 'if x and y then z.' The post I responded to said that y didn't matter because he didn't think that the outcome requiring y would produce would be appropriate. He did not provide any rule support for that statemenet. How is that not RAI/HIWPI?

Read the quoted rule from p33. Does the and create two separate prongs of any potential permission? You would have to come up with a very convincing Clinton-esque argument that 'and' does not mean 'and.' Or, you could provide a rule other than the one on p33 that gives you the permission to translate a re-roll of the To Hit dice into a re-roll of the scatter dice. The only one that I have found is Twin-linked.

Please use relevant rule quotes to support your argument.

 FlingitNow wrote:

2: check for any rules giving the ability to reroll (model firing is a space marine with a standard frag missile with only the Special rule preferred enemy (orks) that does not trigger as the target is not orks)

Explain why it is different that you use the condition (firing at Orks) but not the condition (rolling a 1 to hit).

Because i don't care about the rest of the conditions... I just want to know, why people keep arguing, that if you shoot at nids, why would the model have an ability to reroll when all they have is pref enemy (orks) for example. And this is just if you accept that rerolling 1's is the same as rerolling to hit, which I think it isn't. But then again, i'm not a native english speaker, so i could be missing something.

Rapture - no, it isnt a two part test, it tells you what happens if you actually wish to reroll scatter. I have the ability to reroll to hit (I reroll 1s), therefore I CAN reroll blast scatter.

The ability to "choose" no longer comes into it by that point. Your argument is that I cannot "choose" to use it, as I havent rolled to -hit - except that isnt what that sentence asks.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Rapture - no, it isnt a two part test, it tells you what happens if you actually wish to reroll scatter. I have the ability to reroll to hit (I reroll 1s), therefore I CAN reroll blast scatter.

The ability to "choose" no longer comes into it by that point. Your argument is that I cannot "choose" to use it, as I havent rolled to -hit - except that isnt what that sentence asks.

Sounds like I might agree with you if that is true, but you didn't list rules for that. Please quote what gives you permission to re-roll the scatter dice.

Because i don't care about the rest of the conditions... I just want to know, why people keep arguing, that if you shoot at nids, why would the model have an ability to reroll when all they have is pref enemy (orks) for example. And this is just if you accept that rerolling 1's is the same as rerolling to hit, which I think it isn't. But then again, i'm not a native english speaker, so i could be missing something.

Because the rule states "If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit" which can be taken in 1 of 2 ways:

1)If a model ALWAYS has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit (so you must have a permanent unconditional reroll to hit, so nothing ever uses that rule)
2)If a model has the ability to re-roll ANY OF its rolls To Hit (which means you have a reroll ever then you get the benefit. SoPreferred Enemy (Orks) works against Nids, objuration mechanicum works, heck even the possibility of your opponent casting objuration mechanicum work so everyone get rerolls all the time on their blasts).

Interesting. If someone had preferred enemy X and i was playing army Y i would be very skeptical about them re rolling in this case.

For the case in hand. Letting them re roll the whole thing seems reasonable to me.

 FlingitNow wrote:
The issue is if blast weapons require an unconditional reroll then no rule qualifies as every reroll has some condition (i.e. rerolling all missed to hit).

The other end of the spectrum is we remove all conditions so as long it is possible for you to get a reroll then you get to reroll blast which means every one gets rerolls all the time (my opponent could have had a psyker that had Objuration Mechanicum and he could have cast it on my unit and I could have rolled a 6).

Personally I believe both readings are valid raw and both are equally dumb. Most people will assume some conditions have to count and claim their set of conditions is RaW.

Check your books wording.... There is no such thing as an unconditional reroll. Even twin-linked, which we know does allow re-rolls of scatter is conditional on missing.

Even twin-linked only re-rolls misses... since you never roll a to-hit dice, you never missed, and I guess cant re-roll the scatter.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Because i don't care about the rest of the conditions... I just want to know, why people keep arguing, that if you shoot at nids, why would the model have an ability to reroll when all they have is pref enemy (orks) for example. And this is just if you accept that rerolling 1's is the same as rerolling to hit, which I think it isn't. But then again, i'm not a native english speaker, so i could be missing something.

Because the rule states "If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit" which can be taken in 1 of 2 ways:

1)If a model ALWAYS has the ability to re-roll its rolls To Hit (so you must have a permanent unconditional reroll to hit, so nothing ever uses that rule)

The above does not exist...... so cannot be true.


Which means the below has to be true, or they wrote a rule that never comes into play.

 FlingitNow wrote:

2)If a model has the ability to re-roll ANY OF its rolls To Hit (which means you have a reroll ever then you get the benefit. SoPreferred Enemy (Orks) works against Nids, objuration mechanicum works, heck even the possibility of your opponent casting objuration mechanicum work so everyone get rerolls all the time on their blasts).

rigeld2 wrote:
The rule is not "re roll 1s". The rule is "re-rolls failed To Hit and To Wound rolls". The fact that they must be a 1 is irrelevant to the actual Blast rules.

right,

so if all the requirements are irrelevent,

then you dont have to fufil the requirements that lead to you getting the reroll in the first place (ie rolling 1's)


so you only need preferred enemy, and dont need to be shooting at your preferred target, as you say the requirement is irrelevent.

same thing with ever other source of "conditional" rerolls, the conditions cannot be met, you say they are irrelevent, and they get to reroll the blast scatter.

just like the requirment that precience be in effect, cast on the unit using it ect... is irrelevant, you only need the possiblity of a reroll, you do not need the actual conditions/requirments of that reroll to be met.


so RAW, its all broken then,

 easysauce wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
The rule is not "re roll 1s". The rule is "re-rolls failed To Hit and To Wound rolls". The fact that they must be a 1 is irrelevant to the actual Blast rules.

right,

so if all the requirements are irrelevent,

then you dont have to fufil the requirements that lead to you getting the reroll in the first place (ie rolling 1's)


so you only need preferred enemy, and dont need to be shooting at your preferred target, as you say the requirement is irrelevent.

same thing with ever other source of "conditional" rerolls, the conditions cannot be met, you say they are irrelevent, and they get to reroll the blast scatter.

just like the requirment that precience be in effect, cast on the unit using it ect... is irrelevant, you only need the possiblity of a reroll, you do not need the actual conditions/requirments of that reroll to be met.


so RAW, its all broken then,

You are changing wprding and rules again. The rule does not say "has the possibility to re-roll" in which case this strawman would be accurate. Is says "has the ability..."

Without precience cast, you dont have "the ability to re-roll'
without prefereed enemy shooting at the correct race, you dont "have the ability to re-roll"

Its a very simple if/then statement that determins scatter re-roll.
IF the model was firing a non-blast weapon and could re-roll any dice, THEN you may re-roll all of the scatter dice.

Without precience cast, you dont have "the ability to re-roll'
without prefereed enemy shooting at the correct race, you dont "have the ability to re-roll"

Its a very simple if/then statement that determins scatter re-roll.
IF the model was firing a non-blast weapon and could re-roll any dice, THEN you may re-roll all of the scatter dice.

and without rolling a 1, you dont have the ability to re roll either

you only have the ability to reroll, if you FIRST rolled a 1, as others have said,

rigeld2 wrote:
The rule is not "re roll 1s". The rule is "re-rolls failed To Hit and To Wound rolls". The fact that they must be a 1 is irrelevant to the actual Blast rules.

the REQUIREMENTS that must be met to grant rerolls, are irrelevent.

all I did was apply the same logic others use to more then just the "re roll 1s" requirment.

cant pick and choose what requirements are irrelevant, and which are relevant.

 easysauce wrote:

Without precience cast, you dont have "the ability to re-roll'
without prefereed enemy shooting at the correct race, you dont "have the ability to re-roll"

Its a very simple if/then statement that determins scatter re-roll.
IF the model was firing a non-blast weapon and could re-roll any dice, THEN you may re-roll all of the scatter dice.

and without rolling a 1, you dont have the ability to re roll either

you only have the ability to reroll, if you FIRST rolled a 1, as others have said, the REQUIREMENTS that must be met to grant rerolls, are irrelevent.

all I did was apply the same logic others use to more then just the "re roll 1s" requirment.

cant pick and choose what requirements are irrelevant, and which are relevant.

Not rolling a one does not remove your ability to re-roll some of the dice, it just means you didnt need to. Your ability to re-roll ones is still there.

And no

you only have the ability to reroll, if you FIRST rolled a 1

that statement is not true. That would be like claiming a wave serpent does not possess the jink rule, because it didnt move. it still have the rule, it just cant utilize it.

 easysauce wrote:

Without precience cast, you dont have "the ability to re-roll'
without prefereed enemy shooting at the correct race, you dont "have the ability to re-roll"

Its a very simple if/then statement that determins scatter re-roll.
IF the model was firing a non-blast weapon and could re-roll any dice, THEN you may re-roll all of the scatter dice.

and without rolling a 1, you dont have the ability to re roll either

you only have the ability to reroll, if you FIRST rolled a 1, as others have said, the REQUIREMENTS that must be met to grant rerolls, are irrelevent.

all I did was apply the same logic others use to more then just the "re roll 1s" requirment.

cant pick and choose what requirements are irrelevant, and which are relevant.

Oh, so you have to have a to-hit roll first?
So there isn't a single ability in the game that allows it?
Okay, cool. So your stance is useless then. Thanks for clarifying.

Check your books wording.... There is no such thing as an unconditional reroll. Even twin-linked, which we know does allow re-rolls of scatter is conditional on missing.

Read the post I state this very thing

The above does not exist...... so cannot be true.


Which means the below has to be true, or they wrote a rule that never comes into play.

The rule effectively never comes into play by the 2nd reading as that means literally every model rerolls blasts all the time. Please read what is said in the posts if your going to quote them.

rigeld2 wrote:

 easysauce wrote:

Without precience cast, you dont have "the ability to re-roll'
without prefereed enemy shooting at the correct race, you dont "have the ability to re-roll"

Its a very simple if/then statement that determins scatter re-roll.
IF the model was firing a non-blast weapon and could re-roll any dice, THEN you may re-roll all of the scatter dice.

and without rolling a 1, you dont have the ability to re roll either

you only have the ability to reroll, if you FIRST rolled a 1, as others have said, the REQUIREMENTS that must be met to grant rerolls, are irrelevent.

all I did was apply the same logic others use to more then just the "re roll 1s" requirment.

cant pick and choose what requirements are irrelevant, and which are relevant.

Oh, so you have to have a to-hit roll first?
So there isn't a single ability in the game that allows it?
Okay, cool. So your stance is useless then. Thanks for clarifying.

Not only useless, but ignores the rules in the rule book on how to determine if you can Reroll a blast. Useless AND ignores rules, an impressive combo !

 FlingitNow wrote:

Check your books wording.... There is no such thing as an unconditional reroll. Even twin-linked, which we know does allow re-rolls of scatter is conditional on missing.

Read the post I state this very thing

The above does not exist...... so cannot be true.


Which means the below has to be true, or they wrote a rule that never comes into play.

The rule effectively never comes into play by the 2nd reading as that means literally every model rerolls blasts all the time. Please read what is said in the posts if your going to quote them.

You are right I should have read it closer. And no. That way doesn't fit either. PE irks does not work on nids as in that situation you do not have the ability to re-roll.

With PE you literally have two abilities. If the first abilities conditions are met it grants the second ability, which would be the ability to reroll.

Thanks everyone for their input, it's very much appreciated!

I was sort of vainly hoping that since there's no official FAQ on this, there was just something I was missing and it would be a simply-resolved issue.

Clearly, that isn't the case

I think both sides have strong arguments, though going by pure RAW alone (which is what YMDC is all about) I'd lean towards the "can re-roll blasts" side of things.

That being said, I'll definitely raise the issue with my opponent at the start of the battle to see what they think, and if necessary just roll off for it. It isn't as if the ECPA doesn't give my 'Tide enough cool things as it is.

At this point, as it seems as though this could easily go back and forth for another twenty pages, it'd be good if a mod could lock the thread, if need be.

I would say RaW is clear for blast:"ability to re-roll its rolls to hit"
Requirement: if you have a reroll on your hits. Not "1s can be rerolled"

All RaW of 1s reroll state that " you may reroll 1s". Not "1s grant you a reroll"

Getting rerolls of 1s does NOT grant template rerolls

Again, that isn't RAW. You are inserting a condition which does not exist in the written rules, and deciding that Reroll to hit 1s doesn't meet your made up rule.

 BlackTalos wrote:
I would say RaW is clear for blast:"ability to re-roll its rolls to hit"
Requirement: if you have a reroll on your hits. Not "1s can be rerolled"

All RaW of 1s reroll state that " you may reroll 1s". Not "1s grant you a reroll"

Getting rerolls of 1s does NOT grant template rerolls

If a model has FNP 5+, but you only roll a 4, does the model have the FNP rule?

Yes. What abilities you have are not granted by dice rolls. You either have the ability or not.

 Steel-W0LF wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
I would say RaW is clear for blast:"ability to re-roll its rolls to hit"
Requirement: if you have a reroll on your hits. Not "1s can be rerolled"

All RaW of 1s reroll state that " you may reroll 1s". Not "1s grant you a reroll"

Getting rerolls of 1s does NOT grant template rerolls

If a model has FNP 5+, but you only roll a 4, does the model have the FNP rule?

Yes. What abilities you have are not granted by dice rolls. You either have the ability or not.

That's not a comparative example. You're making the FnP the trigger is the wound. If you have FnP and you taken an ID wound do you have the FnP ability against that wound? I would say no.

The ability to reroll hits is granted by a dice roll normally a failed to hit roll but sometimes a specific number (rolling a 6 or 1 to hit for example). Just as it can be granted through other conditions being in place.

 Steel-W0LF wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
I would say RaW is clear for blast:"ability to re-roll its rolls to hit"
Requirement: if you have a reroll on your hits. Not "1s can be rerolled"

All RaW of 1s reroll state that " you may reroll 1s". Not "1s grant you a reroll"

Getting rerolls of 1s does NOT grant template rerolls

If a model has FNP 5+, but you only roll a 4, does the model have the FNP rule?

Yes. What abilities you have are not granted by dice rolls. You either have the ability or not.

I fully agree: you have the ability to reroll 1s... How is that a "to hit reroll"? It's an allowance to reroll 1s, not 2s, 3s, scatter or any other dice


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Again, that isn't RAW. You are inserting a condition which does not exist in the written rules, and deciding that Reroll to hit 1s doesn't meet your made up rule.

Which part is not RaW? The direct quote from blast rules?

 BlackTalos wrote:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
I would say RaW is clear for blast:"ability to re-roll its rolls to hit"
Requirement: if you have a reroll on your hits. Not "1s can be rerolled"

All RaW of 1s reroll state that " you may reroll 1s". Not "1s grant you a reroll"

Getting rerolls of 1s does NOT grant template rerolls

If a model has FNP 5+, but you only roll a 4, does the model have the FNP rule?

Yes. What abilities you have are not granted by dice rolls. You either have the ability or not.

I fully agree: you have the ability to reroll 1s... How is that a "to hit reroll"? It's an allowance to reroll 1s, not 2s, 3s, scatter or any other dice

If you are rerolling a 1 of a to hit roll arent you rerolling a to hit roll? Strange, i reroll it.
So if the condition "reroll 1s to hit" is important than we cant discount ANY other restrictions. Otherwise this would be selectively applied. Correct? This would automatically mean that neither a prescienced shooter (condition is "failed to hit rolls") nor a twin-linked weapon (must reroll failed to hits - which a blast weapon cant) are having the ability to reroll scatter dice on blast weapons.

Otherwise please explain using actual rules why you selectively apply restrictions on one ability and not on the other. Additionally please cite the rule that restricts the "blast reroll" to only be granted if you have an unconditioned reroll.