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 Mywik wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
I would say RaW is clear for blast:"ability to re-roll its rolls to hit"
Requirement: if you have a reroll on your hits. Not "1s can be rerolled"

All RaW of 1s reroll state that " you may reroll 1s". Not "1s grant you a reroll"

Getting rerolls of 1s does NOT grant template rerolls

If a model has FNP 5+, but you only roll a 4, does the model have the FNP rule?

Yes. What abilities you have are not granted by dice rolls. You either have the ability or not.

I fully agree: you have the ability to reroll 1s... How is that a "to hit reroll"? It's an allowance to reroll 1s, not 2s, 3s, scatter or any other dice

If you are rerolling a 1 of a to hit roll arent you rerolling a to hit roll? Strange, i reroll it.
So if the condition "reroll 1s to hit" is important than we cant discount ANY other restrictions. Otherwise this would be selectively applied. Correct? This would automatically mean that neither a prescienced shooter (condition is "failed to hit rolls") nor a twin-linked weapon (must reroll failed to hits - which a blast weapon cant) are having the ability to reroll scatter dice on blast weapons.

Otherwise please explain using actual rules why you selectively apply restrictions on one ability and not on the other. Additionally please cite the rule that restricts the "blast reroll" to only be granted if you have an unconditioned reroll.

So you believe everyone gets to reroll all the time because there are conditions where literally any model in the game could reroll a to hit dice?

 FlingitNow wrote:


So you believe everyone gets to reroll all the time because there are conditions where literally any model in the game could reroll a to hit dice?

Actually im not decided if i'd go so far to say that thats the RaW.

What im 100% sure about is that the RaW never asks for a unconditioned reroll and everyone here knows that ... still there are people coming up arguing that it has this restriction which gets tiresome to read.

 Mywik wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:


So you believe everyone gets to reroll all the time because there are conditions where literally any model in the game could reroll a to hit dice?

Actually im not decided if i'd go so far to say that thats the RaW.

What im 100% sure about is that the RaW never asks for a unconditioned reroll and everyone here knows that ... still there are people coming up arguing that it has this restriction which gets tiresome to read.

No restriction... We are in a permissive ruleset. Only a permission to reroll allows rerolls of blast. A permission to reroll 1s affects 1s, it is not a permission to reroll any dice you want.
Or show me RaW where the permission for 1s applies to blast.

Prescience allows a reroll: you get a reroll. How is this so hard? I just see people bending RaW for their riptides. Preferred enemy(nids) is an example of what you'd allow ...

 BlackTalos wrote:

 Mywik wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:


So you believe everyone gets to reroll all the time because there are conditions where literally any model in the game could reroll a to hit dice?

Actually im not decided if i'd go so far to say that thats the RaW.

What im 100% sure about is that the RaW never asks for a unconditioned reroll and everyone here knows that ... still there are people coming up arguing that it has this restriction which gets tiresome to read.

No restriction... We are in a permissive ruleset. Only a permission to reroll allows rerolls of blast. A permission to reroll 1s affects 1s, it is not a permission to reroll any dice you want.
Or show me RaW where the permission for 1s applies to blast.

Prescience allows a reroll: you get a reroll. How is this so hard? I just see people bending RaW for their riptides. Preferred enemy(nids) is an example of what you'd allow ...

Permission is given. The permission has 1 condition - it asks for a reroll. Please cite the restriction.

Again this was debunked 100 times.

Prescience lets you "reroll all failed to hits". Restricted to all hits that didnt hit. So its restricted as you cant reroll ALL dice ALWAYS. Just like with reroll 1s. So both have conditions on them. Still you insist one of them is unconditioned. Please explain.

Additionally please stop saying im biased. I play space wolves not tau and i dont discuss rules here to get an ingame advantage. Get back to discuss rules and let the personal attacks out or the triangle of friendship is there to serve.

Prescience has a permission to reroll misses then... You can't reroll a hit indeed.
Permission asks for a reroll? What?
Permission is:"reroll 1s" - reroll dice rolls of 1: you can pickup dices with 1 and roll again.
I'd even say RaW allows you to reroll the 1s in your scatter... If you wanted to... But not 2s, 3s, 6s, scatter etc.

I know a RaW that allows you to reroll, even if you pass/hit.
That rule gives you express permission to do that. Other permissions don't...
I'll try to find that rule now...

 BlackTalos wrote:
Prescience has a permission to reroll misses then... You can't reroll a hit indeed.
Permission asks for a reroll? What?
Permission is:"reroll 1s" - reroll dice rolls of 1: you can pickup dices with 1 and roll again.
I'd even say RaW allows you to reroll the 1s in your scatter... If you wanted to... But not 2s, 3s, 6s, scatter etc.

I know a RaW that allows you to reroll, even if you pass/hit.
That rule gives you express permission to do that. Other permissions don't...
I'll try to find that rule now...

Permission is "reroll blast dice" when you have a reroll. This permission is restricted on having a reroll. No other restriction is given. I have a reroll on 1s. You have a reroll on "all failed to hit". So we either both have a reroll or we both have no reroll since both our permissions to reroll are conditioned.
Your assertion is that reroll "all failed" is somehow different to reroll "all 1s" in that the former is unconditioned. Which is not true. Both have restrictions on the reroll and you selectively apply only one of them.

I know that this leads to other unpleasant results but this is still the RaW in this part of the discussion.
Flingit has it correct it can now be argued that you ALWAYS have a reroll on blasts ... which im not decided on how i see it.

Additionally ... no it doesnt allow you to reroll the ones in the scatter since you can never reroll only one of them per the blast scatter rules. Additionally its 2d6 not 2xd6 so you never roll a 1 anyways.

Okay, so you've proved we can't reroll the blast D6.
However, the permission to reroll 1s does not apply to blast, as you don't roll a D6 to begin with.

Your example doesn't work: if you have a miss, you can reroll.
If I get a 2, I can't reroll..., it's still a miss.

 BlackTalos wrote:

Your example doesn't work: if you have a miss, you can reroll.
If I get a 2, I can't reroll..., it's still a miss.

My example works. The blast scatter rule asks for having a reroll. It doesnt ask for having a reroll for all failed to hits like you are asserting. It can be argued that it asks for an unconditioned reroll. Using this interpretation nothing can ever reroll blast scatter. Please show where the blast scatter rule specifically asks for being able to reroll all failed to hit dice.

Its muck more simple then everyone is making it out to be.

If the model had any other weapon other than a blast, and would be able to pick up dice and reroll all/any of them against its desired target, it can reroll scatter.

It doesn't ask if theoretically the model could have a reroll.
It doesn't ask if the model could reroll all dice.

All it asks is if in the present situation, the model could fire a normal weapon and could reroll.

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
Its muck more simple then everyone is making it out to be.

If the model had any other weapon other than a blast, and would be able to pick up dice and reroll all/any of them against its desired target, it can reroll scatter.

It doesn't ask if theoretically the model could have a reroll.
It doesn't ask if the model could reroll all dice.

All it asks is if in the present situation, the model could fire a normal weapon and could reroll.

Im with you here but some people seem to disagree.

 Mywik wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

Your example doesn't work: if you have a miss, you can reroll.
If I get a 2, I can't reroll..., it's still a miss.

My example works. The blast scatter rule asks for having a reroll. It doesnt ask for having a reroll for all failed to hits like you are asserting. It can be argued that it asks for an unconditioned reroll. Using this interpretation nothing can ever reroll blast scatter. Please show where the blast scatter rule specifically asks for being able to reroll all failed to hit dice.

I agree, you need "a reroll". Unfortunately, you won't get that reroll unless a dice shows a 1 on the table.
Being able to reroll 1s is not a blanket statement allowing rerolls.

You still need the 1st roll to enable the reroll. You can't Re-roll if you don't roll in the first place.
Once you roll, certain rules allow you, upon rolling certain values, such as 1, or misses, to throw those dice again. Twin-linked and Prescience allow you to reroll any misses. If your Blast aimed at target *A* hits unit *B*, you cannot reroll. Preferred enemy enables rerolls of 1. If you get a 1, somehow, on a Blast, you may reroll it...

So you are sticking with the argument blast weapons can never re-roll?

No i'm going with: they can reroll if you get a "full" reroll. Twin-linked specifically allows Blasts.

If you Blast missed completely, Prescience allows a reroll. Master-crafted Blast weapon will allow rerolls to the scatter, etc

If you can reroll 1s, show me the 1 on your Blast weapon?

Preferred enemy RaW: "re-rolls failed To Hit and To Wound rolls of 1". Specifically To Hit singular D6 Rolls of 1. Blast weapons replace that with a scatter that can't "Roll 1s"


Oh and if you want a unconditional re-roll, check the "Fleet" special Rule




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok, i have reviewed all the posts and get the issue:
Blast says: "If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls to hit(...)" and re-rolling 1s is an "ability to reroll".

However, the conditional "you get a reroll if you miss" (Prescience) gives the reroll (unconditional) to any weapon that missed. That's it's allowance.
The conditional "you get a reroll if you get a 1" (Preferred Enemy) gives the reroll (unconditional) to any weapons that To Hit rolled 1s. That's its allowance.

A Blast weapon can miss (and get one of the rerolls), but cannot roll a 1.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Trying to keep it simple:
Having a Special Rule that gives you rerolls is not the ability to reroll.
You only get the ability to reroll when the Special Rule takes effect.
If a model has a SR to reroll during the entire game, he has the Rule. He only gets the ability once he Misses To Hit. Or gets a 1.

Except Prescience requires you to miss on your To Hit roll. Of you did not roll To Hit, you could not have missed, and therefore cannot not re-roll.

As above. Black, you are confused as to what the requirement is

The requirement to gain a Reroll to scatter is: can you Reroll to-hit?

Yes; Reroll one to hit is a Reroll to hit. Indisputable. Therefore I can Reroll blast scatter.

 BlackTalos wrote:
No i'm going with: they can reroll if you get a "full" reroll. Twin-linked specifically allows Blasts.

If you Blast missed completely, Prescience allows a reroll. Master-crafted Blast weapon will allow rerolls to the scatter, etc

If you can reroll 1s, show me the 1 on your Blast weapon?

For Prescience and Master-Crafted, since both require a failed To-Hit roll, show the failed To-Hit roll.
Since that's impossible, your argument fails.

Oh and if you want a unconditional re-roll, check the "Fleet" special Rule

Which has what relevance with Blast?

Ok, i have reviewed all the posts and get the issue:
Blast says: "If a model has the ability to re-roll its rolls to hit(...)" and re-rolling 1s is an "ability to reroll".

However, the conditional "you get a reroll if you miss" (Prescience) gives the reroll (unconditional) to any weapon that missed. That's it's allowance.
The conditional "you get a reroll if you get a 1" (Preferred Enemy) gives the reroll (unconditional) to any weapons that To Hit rolled 1s. That's its allowance.

A Blast weapon can miss (and get one of the rerolls), but cannot roll a 1.

Thank you for reading the thread finally.
Blast weapons never roll to hit and can therefore never miss. You're making assumptions with no basis in fact.

You only get the ability to reroll when the Special Rule takes effect.
If a model has a SR to reroll during the entire game, he has the Rule. He only gets the ability once he Misses To Hit. Or gets a 1.

And Blasts never miss a To-Hit roll. Instead of rolling To-Hit, you roll scatter.

I am getting further and further away from p33 ("If a model has the ability to re-roll its roll To Hit and chooses to do so after firing a blast weapon, the player must re-roll both the scatter dice and the 2D6.") being a broad, vague permission to re-roll scatter dice. The hold up is that things like preferred enemy (orks) arguably granting re-rolls of the scatter dice against any opposing army. And what about something like Fateweaver's re-roll? The entire army has the ability to re-roll any To Hit die - do they all get to re-roll scatter dice? As the above quoted section grants a re-roll independently of Fateweaver's rule, would the player even have to spend the re-roll? The easy way out would be to just say 'yes,' but the actual rules might be more complicated than that. Either way, I think that any discussion is a moot point:

RAI, I think that the quoted line from p33 serves as a restriction to re-roll all of the scatter dice where ourside permission to re-roll those dice exists (i.e. Twin-linked).

RAW, the quoted line from p33 can never grant a re-roll of the scatter dice as it uses the form 'if x and y, then z.' X is the ability to re-roll To Hit dice, which, as written, is very broad. Y is the the requirement that the player choose to re-roll the To Hit dice when firing the blast weapon for which they wish to re-roll the associated scatter dice.

P33 makes it very clear that blast weapons do not roll To Hit, making compliance with the 'and y' prong of the test to see if the above quoted section from p33 will allow a model firing a blast weapon to re-roll the scatter dice impossible to pass.

So, is there something outside of the section on p33 that grants a re-roll of the scatter dice for the ECPA, prescience, ect.?

This thread has a some miscommunications, misquoting of rules, and arguments with no actual rules support. So, as I would like to agree with you in this case, please support your argument with actual quotes as you red them from the rule books

Rapture,
The real big issue is the 'unconditional' side have far more text based support then the side requiring the original conditions to be met, regardless to the fact it does create so many broken situations....

Understandable. But, you always start with the easiest question to answer for this type of question. It seems like that is whether or not a model firing a blast weapon can ever choose to re-roll their roll To Hit. As this is not possible (from what I have read), I don't really see any issue at all.

They aren't choosing to Reroll to hit, they are choosing to Reroll the blast.

Your suggestion would lead you to never being able to Reroll blasts, and as that is useless is an " interpretation" that can be safely ignored

Rapture,
The problem there is simple: Name all the Special Rules which allow a unit to choose to Re-Roll To Hit results. The Majority of Rules which come to mind have been deliberately worded to remove the ability for free choice, they all contain words like "must Re-Roll' or other such terminology, in order to force the rule to be evoked. The reason behind this is very simple as well, there might be situations where you rather not wipe out an entire squad. For example, you might want a handful of survivors in order to lock them into an assault, all so your team can not be counter-fired on in the following turn. A unit with the ability to Re-Roll their To Hits has a much greater likelihood of killing off the unit or reducing the numbers to low enough that you finish them during your assault phase, not your enemies.

rigeld2 wrote:
Blast weapons never roll to hit and can therefore never miss. You're making assumptions with no basis in fact.

You only get the ability to reroll when the Special Rule takes effect.
If a model has a SR to reroll during the entire game, he has the Rule. He only gets the ability once he Misses To Hit. Or gets a 1.

And Blasts never miss a To-Hit roll. Instead of rolling To-Hit, you roll scatter.

Relevant to the thread, this is the part i disagree with. Blast scatters can miss, if they hit nothing. As soon as 1 model is below the template, it's a hit (even if that model if yours).
But if the blast covers no models whatsoever, you enable the "miss" condition something like prescience creates an "unconditional reroll" for.

But the same blast weapon cannot roll 1s with a scatter dice, therefore never granting the "unconditional reroll" from something like PReferred enemy.

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Blast weapons never roll to hit and can therefore never miss. You're making assumptions with no basis in fact.

You only get the ability to reroll when the Special Rule takes effect.
If a model has a SR to reroll during the entire game, he has the Rule. He only gets the ability once he Misses To Hit. Or gets a 1.

And Blasts never miss a To-Hit roll. Instead of rolling To-Hit, you roll scatter.

Relevant to the thread, this is the part i disagree with. Blast scatters can miss, if they hit nothing. As soon as 1 model is below the template, it's a hit (even if that model if yours).
But if the blast covers no models whatsoever, you enable the "miss" condition something like prescience creates an "unconditional reroll" for.

But the same blast weapon cannot roll 1s with a scatter dice, therefore never granting the "unconditional reroll" from something like PReferred enemy.

Prescience allows you to re-roll a failed To-Hit roll. Blasts never roll To-Hit.
Ever. Disagree all you want, but you should read the actual rules (try doing that some time) and cite some if you continue to disagree.

p33 wrote:When firing a Blast weapon, models do not roll To Hit.

Since Prescience requires you to fail a To Hit roll...

p420 wrote:Whilst the power is in effect, the target unit can re-roll all failed To Hit rolls.

And as Blasts do not roll To Hit you can never have a failed To Hit roll.

So not only does your stance have no rules support, it's inconsistent.

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Blast weapons never roll to hit and can therefore never miss. You're making assumptions with no basis in fact.

You only get the ability to reroll when the Special Rule takes effect.
If a model has a SR to reroll during the entire game, he has the Rule. He only gets the ability once he Misses To Hit. Or gets a 1.

And Blasts never miss a To-Hit roll. Instead of rolling To-Hit, you roll scatter.

Relevant to the thread, this is the part i disagree with. Blast scatters can miss, if they hit nothing. As soon as 1 model is below the template, it's a hit (even if that model if yours).
But if the blast covers no models whatsoever, you enable the "miss" condition something like prescience creates an "unconditional reroll" for.

But the same blast weapon cannot roll 1s with a scatter dice, therefore never granting the "unconditional reroll" from something like PReferred enemy.

Prescience allows you to re-roll a failed To-Hit roll. Blasts never roll To-Hit.
Ever. Disagree all you want, but you should read the actual rules (try doing that some time) and cite some if you continue to disagree.

p33 wrote:When firing a Blast weapon, models do not roll To Hit.

Since Prescience requires you to fail a To Hit roll...

p420 wrote:Whilst the power is in effect, the target unit can re-roll all failed To Hit rolls.

And as Blasts do not roll To Hit you can never have a failed To Hit roll.

So not only does your stance have no rules support, it's inconsistent.

You're missing the next p33:"Instead, just(...)"

Where the scatter and 2D6 replaces the To-Hit roll. This "replaced" To-Hit is still a To-Hit, but you *Instead* do what follows.

p33 even says:" If the shot scatters so that the hole in the centre of the marker is beyond the table's edge, the shot is a complete miss and is discarded."
^^^^ It CAN miss. That triggers Prescience and such.

No, it's not a To Hit roll. You know that because To Hit rolls are defined and the Blast rule tells you to not roll To Hit.

It's a scatter roll, not a To Hit roll.

It is still within Phase 3:Roll to Hit phase of the shooting sequence, unless you can prove that otherwise?

 BlackTalos wrote:
It is still within Phase 3:Roll to Hit phase of the shooting sequence, unless you can prove that otherwise?

Which is relevant how, exactly? It's still not a To Hit roll, which is what Prescience requires. As I've quoted.

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
It is still within Phase 3:Roll to Hit phase of the shooting sequence, unless you can prove that otherwise?

Which is relevant how, exactly? It's still not a To Hit roll, which is what Prescience requires. As I've quoted.

It's a substituted To-Hit Roll (via p33 and "Instead") which "counts as" a To-Hit roll in Prescience and other such cases. I do believe you also advocate "counts as" = "is".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or would you never allow Prescience to reroll Blasts?

 BlackTalos wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
It is still within Phase 3:Roll to Hit phase of the shooting sequence, unless you can prove that otherwise?

Which is relevant how, exactly? It's still not a To Hit roll, which is what Prescience requires. As I've quoted.

It's a substituted To-Hit Roll (via p33 and "Instead") which "counts as" a To-Hit roll in Prescience and other such cases. I do believe you also advocate "counts as" = "is".

Where the rules make that statement sure.
When someone makes that's statement without rules support, solely to forward his own agenda, no - that's not correct.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or would you never allow Prescience to reroll Blasts?

I'm showing how, by your argument, Prescience would not be able to reroll blasts. As I've shown, in multiple ways, that argument has no merit and requires you to treat things inconsistently and make up rules (as you've done in the quoted post).
Unless you're willing to actually cite rules support for your statements for once?

rigeld2 wrote:
Blast weapons never roll to hit and can therefore never miss.

Just this. Wrong. They can miss.

A miss in Phase 3 triggers certain Special Rules. Simple.

A roll of 1 triggers others, but not scatter.