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I never said it wasn't a weapon, I'm saying you've no permission to disassemble the piece of wargear. Specifically, if you read what I say I'm saying it's not a valid weapon to exchange.

A bike includes a weapon, ie: Wargear A is made up of bike x and weapon y. Is that weapon a valid choice to swap and if so care to back up that assertion?

Also a combi-weapon is described as being two weapons on page 56. A weapon that fires in two modes would be something like a blastmaster. Finally a combi-bolter isn't a combi-weapon so I don't know why you brought that up at all. Saying it's a strawman doesn't make it so, especially when you don't tackle it with relevant information.

So, despite the model having that weapon, you are saying it isnt a valid weapon to swap? Anything to back up that assertion?

I'll take that as your concession.

No permission to exchange one part of a piece of wargear exists. I don't have to prove a negative, you have to prove a positive.
If you are allowed swap out parts of wargear, why do people generally think trading out half of a combi-weapon is not cool?

Can you swap the storm bolter of the single piece of wargear: "Dreadnought Close combat weapon with built-in storm bolter"?

Ah, I forgot the biker lord model has a TL boltgun as well, that makes perfect sense to exhange that one for the BBoS.

liturgies of blood: I don't see your analogy with a combi-weapon that way. A bike gives the _model_ a Toughness increase, changes his unit type and gives him a further weapon. The _model_ can then exchange one weapon, e.g. the TL Boltguns. A combi-weapon on the other hand is one weapon, so of course you cannot exchange just part of it. I don't see why you are debating this as is is not the same thing.

And I can see that you don't want broken lords, but we are discussing rules interpretations, not competitiveness, here. It is quite possible to be interested in this topic because you want to run a "normal" Lord with power weapon, bolt pistol and the BBoS. That's what I want for friendly games anyway.

 BlackTalos wrote:
Can you swap the storm bolter of the single piece of wargear: "Dreadnought Close combat weapon with built-in storm bolter"?

yes because its explicitly said that he can exchange the stormbolter with a flamer.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
Can you swap the storm bolter of the single piece of wargear: "Dreadnought Close combat weapon with built-in storm bolter"?

yes because its explicitly said that he can exchange the stormbolter with a flamer.

Therefore "single" wargear items have trade able parts.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
I'll take that as your concession.

No permission to exchange one part of a piece of wargear exists. I don't have to prove a negative, you have to prove a positive.
If you are allowed swap out parts of wargear, why do people generally think trading out half of a combi-weapon is not cool?

Funny, thats your concession instead.

The rule is the *model* may exchange one weapon. You either have to prove the weapon isnt a weapon (good luck!), that the weapon isnt part of the model(good luck!)

I can prove it is a weapon, and that it is part of the model. I have thus satisfied the rule. Find the denial. Page, para or concede.

It seems there are several examples where a piece of wargear or a wargear/weapon combo, etc is able to switch part of it for something else, so it seems perfectly reasonable to do so.

Plus, the distinction made that the model switches weapons, not "the lord" or "the bike" pretty much clears it up.

I don't know who brought up combi-weapons in an attempt to switch half the weapon for something else, but what I was saying was that it seemed strange that the bikers in a bike squad were allowed to trade twin-linked bolters for plasmaguns, but by your insistence, the champion couldn't switch his twin-linked bolter for a combi-weapon, which means he would have to switch his bolt pistol or his close combat weapon for it and lose one of his bonus attacks for having two ccw, which is just odd and, thankfully, not how the rule works.

Seems the lord is in fact able to change the bolter on his bike just fine.

 DJGietzen wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Does the lord come with grenades? Those are technically weapons (but I don't think GW intended for them to be swappable).

Grenades, while listed in the weapons chapter of the BRB, are not weapons as far as the codex is concerned. In the codex they are not listed as weapons but are listed in the Special Issue Wargear section.

Take krak grenades, for eg, they are listed as "special issue wargear" with the proviso to check the brb.
On p62, "shooting" a krak grenade is an option you may take rather than using another shooting weapon.

= krak grenades (and therefore some special issue wargear) are weapons.

If a "model" ic on a bike has the option to swap weapons, the biker entry is irrelevant.

In the wargear swaps you've listed there is specific permission, the ccw on the dread's stormbolter for a flamer.

The lord has a bike, the bike includes a weapon. The bike states it has a specific loadout, not that it has a weapon that can be exchanged. The only permission to exchange the weapon on a bike exists in the biker squad entry. There are a few places in the chaos codex where weapons options aren't available for the champion that the squad members can take as they have to pay higher rates and use the weapons tables.

So Nos, you'd allow the exchange of part of a combi-weapon?

 liturgies of blood wrote:


So Nos, you'd allow the exchange of part of a combi-weapon?

I see why you ask this, but, something similar can be found, upgrading to terminator armour, that has a load out, that can be further upgraded, not necessarily because the ic is a terminator (as in the unit entry), but he has access to the wargear list.
There is no-relevance to the terminator entry, a character upgrades in a different manner to that of a squad member as you have said.

 liturgies of blood] wrote:
In the wargear swaps you've listed there is specific permission, the ccw on the dread's stormbolter for a flamer.

Agreed

liturgies of blood wrote:The lord has a bike, the bike includes a weapon.

Meaning the model, which is comprised of the lord plus bike, has a weapon. Agreed?

liturgies of blood wrote:The bike states it has a specific loadout,

So does the lord, when you look at just the Lords wargear.

liturgies of blood wrote: not that it has a weapon that can be exchanged.

Yet it is part of the "lord" model, and the MODEL has permission to exchange a weapon - agreed?

liturgies of blood wrote:The only permission to exchange the weapon on a bike exists in the biker squad entry.

False. There is ALSO permission to change the weapon ON THE MODEL in the chaos lord entry. Or are you now stating that the bike is not part of the model?

liturgies of blood wrote:There are a few places in the chaos codex where weapons options aren't available for the champion that the squad members can take as they have to pay higher rates and use the weapons tables.

Irrelevant

So, can you answer why, when I have GENERAL permission to exchange ANY WEAPON on the MODEL, you are disallowing the WEAPON on the MODEL from being exchanged?

Page, and paragraph, or concede

liturgies of blood wrote:So Nos, you'd allow the exchange of part of a combi-weapon?

Once you answer, with page and para if needed, the above questions, then I may answer this. Answer the relevant question first, then the corrolaries can be looked at.

Then its the same why a termi lord can't take Plasma Pistols...

The Lord can exchange is PBolt for a plasma pistol, but once you buy the Termi armor he has a new options, that specifically says that he can exchange the wargear he gets with the armor for other options.

no where is a option for the plasma pistol, but by your logic he could exchange it with the weapons he get with the armour, even though he has a restrictif and specific list of weapons he as acces.

The Same is with the bike.

Erm, no? As in, what you wrote has no relation to the rules.

Go through it again - the model can swap a weapon for. Do you disagree that the bike is part of the model? Do you disagree the Bolger is a weapon?

Anything, in fact, that shows you are making a rules argument.,

 liturgies of blood wrote:
I'll take that as your concession.

No permission to exchange one part of a piece of wargear exists. I don't have to prove a negative, you have to prove a positive.
If you are allowed swap out parts of wargear, why do people generally think trading out half of a combi-weapon is not cool?

This. Exalted !

 BlackTalos wrote:
Can you swap the storm bolter of the single piece of wargear: "Dreadnought Close combat weapon with built-in storm bolter"?

Yes, because it explicitly states so in the wargear options listed for Dreadnoughts. That is irrelevant.

The bike is special issue wargear and is purchased as such. It doesn't give a weapon to the model. It has a boltgun on it, which can be fired by the rider. It is not "part of the model" as the biker's boltgun is not listed as wargear the model brings to the table.

Therefore it cannot be swapped for another weapon.

ALSO: I'd like to see the model in question that's rocking LS/BF/Burning Brand. I really would. Because my bet is you're proxying all sorts of things to make this model happen.

You mean the Nurgle Biker Lord with PF/LC and swapping his bike's twin linked bolter for the BBoS?


The Bike is war gear, in the bike's description it says that the bike comes with a free twin-linked bolter.

The section for Chaos Artefacts says you may replace one weapon with the following.

If the Twin-linked Bolter counts as a weapon, then you should be able to replace it.

Question, Im on the fence about this, As much as id like to be able to take all three on my biker, (Friends seem to disagree.) What about the Warpsmiths Mechatendrils that has a flamer and melta incorporated into it. Your saying i could swap out the flamer for a combi melta? I dont have the codex with me so i cant see if it says i cant or not.

@GuitarQuero: being the friend you mentioned that disagrees, I feel inclined to post my reasoning.

The Bike is a piece of wargear that has the TL boltgun attached. It's in the description of how you should treat that piece of wargear. Purchasing weapons from the lists says you have to replace something of the Lord's to get that. I wouldn't treat the Bike's TL boltgun as being his, because it's part of the piece of his wargear, not directly one of his weapons. The fact that it has the TL boltgun is akin to how a combi-plasma has a 2nd profile that you treat it as a plasmagun once per game. That plasma shot is part of the Combi-plasma's description, not a seperate weapon. It's just a rule from part of a larger piece of wargear. Just because he can fire it doesnt mean it's part of HIS weapons. He can fire an Aegis quadgun, but that's not part of his gear. The rule just says he counts it as a weapon option when choosing what to shoot that turn.

Not sure about warpsmiths, but Techmarines get a plethora of weapon-profiles form the servo-harness. Plasmacutter (literally says is treated as a TL plasma pistol) is part of the harness, as an example. I wouldn't let you do that either because the Techmarine is equipped with a Servo-harness. The Servo-harness' rule says you can use any of the following weapon profiles, but those weapons are not part of the Techmarine. They're part of his Harness. Are you truly saying that I can swap all (I think) 5 weapons for Combi-grav guns? Not only does that reek of cheddar, that sounds like a REAL stretch to even allow that.

TL;DR: no, the Bike's TL boltgun does *not* count as one of it's riders weapons.

The chaos bike is wargear. The chaos bike in its entirety is an item of wargear. The difference between the bike and a bolter the models wargear states it has, is that in models that list a bike in their wargear list don't have tl bolter listed at all.

At no point would the wargear list have tl bolter, it only has chaos bike. So your assumption would work if a chaos biker had bike and tl bolter listed, it doesn't but does allow substitution in 3 specific cases only in that unit. Nos you've fetishised the model's possession when that's not the point, it is that the wargear list doesn't list a weapon, it lists a chaos bike. While a grenade is questionable at best it is actually listed in the wargear list.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
The chaos bike is wargear. The chaos bike in its entirety is an item of wargear. The difference between the bike and a bolter the models wargear states it has, is that in models that list a bike in their wargear list don't have tl bolter listed at all.

At no point would the wargear list have tl bolter, it only has chaos bike. So your assumption would work if a chaos biker had bike and tl bolter listed, it doesn't but does allow substitution in 3 specific cases only in that unit. Nos you've fetishised the model's possession when that's not the point, it is that the wargear list doesn't list a weapon, it lists a chaos bike. While a grenade is questionable at best it is actually listed in the wargear list.

Concession accepted.

The permission is to replace a weapon the model has. I do that. You're saying I cannot, but haven't provided a single actual rule to back up your repeated assertion, despite repeated requests.

As per the tenets, please mark your posts as hywpi, as they lack any form of rules.

Can you show where it lists the weapon in the lords wargear as a tl bolter and not a chaos bike or give permission to modify the bike? If not your concession is accepted.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Can you show where it lists the weapon in the lords wargear as a tl bolter and not a chaos bike or give permission to modify the bike? If not your concession is accepted.

That question, as you are aware, isn't relevant, as the actual rule only requires the model to swap a weapon. Oh, and as the bike is part of the model, and I have permission to alter the model, permission to alter the bike has been granted. Unless you can find a denial of this permission written anywhere?

Or are you claiming the bike isn't part of the model? Or that a tl bolter isn't a weapon? Or that the permission to alter the model somehow excludes the bike, or is otherwise denied? Any chance you can explain your rules basis, if you have one, for making any of your claims, at any point in this thread? I make that at least your 3rd refusal to provide ANY rules at all.

For now though , Thanks for again conceding you are only arguing hywpi , although you are still not following the tenets by making this clear. I am sure this is an oversight.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Or are you claiming the bike isn't part of the model?

I don't know about him, but I am.

Whenever the rule book refers to "model" it's referring to "unit entry" really, rather than actual physical thing existing on the table. The unit entry does not list a bike with moddable options. It simply lists you can take a bike. No where does it list you can then modify the weapons on said bike.

The reason Chaos Bikers can swap the TL boltgun on their bike is because it specifically says so in their unit entry.

Nos, would you like to stop misrepresenting what I'm saying?

I'm sure it's your own oversight and not the continued misrepresenting of the rules that you began this morning but it's rich to be asked for rules when I have to correct the only one you referenced.

TL bolter is a weapon it is part of the wargear listed as chaos bike. A piece of wargear that is listed as chaos bike on models in the chaos codex. Can you show where the weapon alone is listed as wargear on models in the codex? It doesn't matter that the tl bolter is a weapon, it is part of a a composite item of wargear. You have refused to answer my question, which I asked first, is a combi-weapon able to be broken down and it's parts swapped? If no, why is the bike different as another piece of composite wargear?

So here is a quick list of questions to distil the answer:
1) Is the chaos bike a single item of wargear? y/n
2) Is it listed as chaos bike in wargear lists in the codex? y/n
3) Is the chaos bike a weapon? y/n
4) Is the tl bolter separate or detachable from the bike that makes up the chaos bike? y/n (this one requires justifications for a yes)
5) Is there permission in the brb or codex aside from the specific permission in the chaos bike squad to alter composite pieces of wargear that consist of a weapon and another item? y/n ( justification required)

The bike is itself a piece of wargear, it is not further upgradable. If it was it would say something to the effect of: purchase bike X points... Upgrade twin linked bolter on bike to plasma, melta, whatever... You can't use it as an excuse to purchase another weapon upgrade . The two linked boltgun on the bike IS the upgrade you get when you buy a bike.

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
The bike is itself a piece of wargear, it is not further upgradable. If it was it would say something to the effect of: purchase bike X points... Upgrade twin linked bolter on bike to plasma, melta, whatever... You can't use it as an excuse to purchase another weapon upgrade . The two linked boltgun on the bike IS the upgrade you get when you buy a bike.

Shhhhhh..... we're all fools and communists for thinking so. :p

All I know is I'm going to run a Master of the Forge and swap out one of the weapons on his Servo-Harness now with that silly Salvo boltgun in their relics, because OBVIOUSLY that's a thing we allow now.

Generally for my lord it's not an issue. I run power fist, burning brand.

Sometimes I run power fist, burning brand, combi-meltagun. I have a melta modeled on my bike as well as a sonic blaster, which used to be my doomsiren (when chaos lords could take doomsirens) and is now my burning brand (it's a sonic counts-as version of the burning brand, obviously, as I run slaanesh).

The model I use is doomrider's bike, so if anyone really complains I can say the gargoyle head on the front spits the burning brand.

At any rate I always opt to keep my bolt pistol, so that when I get the boon that says my melee attacks cause instant death, I can opt to use my bolt pistol (has the melee special rule) when I want to utilize my initiative 6 and hope my opponent fails an armor save, rather than my powerfist. I always replace the bike's twin-linked bolter.

And will continue to do so, because I haven't seen anything to convince me that my model isn't armed with a twin-linked bolter on his bike that I can switch out for another weapon.

And "well this model can, but your far more elite models can't." doesn't really pass the stupid test anyway. Kind of like when tournament organizers choose to ban Tau commanders joining riptides for game balance purposes but will allow O'vesa to join said commander, which is the exact same thing, and that's suddenly perfectly balanced.