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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/15 17:18:03
Subject: CSM Lord gearing question.
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Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard
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nosferatu1001 wrote:
Your silence on these matters is puzzling, as you are aware of the tenets which state you have to back up your argument. So please, Do so.
In news just in, the pot has called the kettle black.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/15 17:35:29
Subject: CSM Lord gearing question.
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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liturgies of blood wrote:nosferatu1001 wrote:
Your silence on these matters is puzzling, as you are aware of the tenets which state you have to back up your argument. So please, Do so.
In news just in, the pot has called the kettle black.
Still making constructive posts I see.
I, unlike you, posted rules that allow the model, The Lord on bike, to swap the tl-bolter on the model for something else.
You have managed......nothing. Not a single rule to back up your assertions.
Found a rule yet? Or just more lies?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/15 17:44:42
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/15 17:45:10
Subject: CSM Lord gearing question.
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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nos, I really have no side in this argument, I'm just curious. Do you consider it legal to swap out parts of the mechatendrils or either part of a combi-weapon? Could I, for example, purchase a combi-flamer, swap out the flamer for the burning brand and then swap the Bolter portion for a combi-plasma (assuming bolters can normally be swapped for combi-weapons of course)?
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Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/15 17:46:16
Subject: CSM Lord gearing question.
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Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard
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I'm sorry you're making a false equivalence and don't see it.
I'm sure you'll be happy to answer my question then to prove that nothing I've said is relevant instead of just saying it is, proving your case as per the tenants of the forum which you hold so dear.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/15 18:00:35
Subject: CSM Lord gearing question.
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Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh
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Hmm guess I was going by old wording.
But if you made a combi-meltagun into a combi-burning brand, I think you would only get one shot with it, as that would be the secondary weapon.
So I say then, in light of that wording, sure. Do it. But you'll only get one shot with your combi-burning brand. Automatically Appended Next Post: Heh I like the purchasing a combi-flamer to replace a bolt pistol, then replace the bolter part with a combi-plasma, then replace its bolter with a combi-melta, then replace that bolter with a combi-bolter so you have a twin-linked bolter with one flamer, plasma, and melta shot each game!
For the low low cost of 35 points?
Whatever, sounds legit. Yay careful reading of RAW! This keeps getting better and better for chaos please keep arguing.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/15 18:03:31
40k Armies I play:
Glory for Slaanesh!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/15 18:06:49
Subject: CSM Lord gearing question.
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Spellbound wrote:Hmm guess I was going by old wording.
But if you made a combi-meltagun into a combi-burning brand, I think you would only get one shot with it, as that would be the secondary weapon.
So I say then, in light of that wording, sure. Do it. But you'll only get one shot with your combi-burning brand.
Why? You've replaced the "single shot meltagun" with a CC weapon, removing the limitation of one shot. The issue I take with swapping out the TL bolter on the bike (beyond the Chaos Biker's entry assigning possession of the TL bolter to the bike, not the rider) is the order in which this is done. In order for your substitution to work you must purchase the bike upgrade, then swap out the TL bolter for another weapon. I would argue that all purchases occur simultaneously, therefore the Lord does not have the third weapon ( TL bolter) to swap out as all upgrades are purchased at the same time. The justification for this is Terminator armor upgrade which states "... may then take items from ...". This is the only upgrade that gives permission to make one purchase, then modify that purchase.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/15 18:09:45
Subject: CSM Lord gearing question.
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Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard
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The brand isn't a ccw. The issue isn't purchases, it's wargear. Terminator armour doesn't include it's weapons as they are listed separately in the wargear while the chaos bike includes it's unlisted weapon.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/15 18:20:44
Subject: CSM Lord gearing question.
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Painlord Titan Princeps of Slaanesh
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So you're saying tyranid warriors can't take two sets of ccw biomorphs? Because before they swapped the devoured for talons, and the talons for a different cc biomorph. But since you think purchases happen at the same time, and only scything talons switch out for cc biomorphs, all cc warriors are a thing of the past?
Regardless, nothing at all says things are simultaneous. Otherwise the world would explode if you bought terminator armor.
"Omg I wanna buy a black mace with my terminator armour to replace my bolter but terminator armor says replace all wargear with pweapon and combi bolter but then it says I can buy stuff but it says all wargear is replaced OH GOD WHAT DO I DO"
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40k Armies I play:
Glory for Slaanesh!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/15 18:55:19
Subject: CSM Lord gearing question.
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Without having the 'Nid codex in front of me I cannot confirm nor deny whether simultaneous purchasing would affect them or not.
The hyperbole you're using doesn't really address the issue. You purchase Termie armor and replace the initially listed wargear (as that option instructs). Next there is a subset rule indicating that once your wargear is replaced you now have the option to purchase wargear from a different list of tables. So you can certainly purchase the Termie armor, then swap combi-bolter for certain items, the power weapon for certain items, or one or both weapons for 1 or 2 artifacts.
While nothing specifies that purchases are simultaneous we do have a wargear option that applies a specific order to the purchase, in 40k that distinction is only made when it differs from the norm. Otherwise there is no limit to the number of weapons your Lord can carry - swap bolt pistol for combi-plasma, exchange plasma for Burning Brand and bolter for combi-melta, now switch melta for Black Mace and bolter for combi-flamer, swap flamer for Axe of Blind Fury and bolter for combi-bolter. Now we have a Lord with 3 artifacts, a CCW, and a combi-bolter
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/15 19:55:16
Subject: CSM Lord gearing question.
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The Hive Mind
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nosferatu1001 wrote:Rigeld - page 3 tells us what a single model is made up of. Are you arguing that the bolter is not part of the model? Found a rule for that assertion, or one for your assertion that breaking up a piece of war gear on a model needs specific permission?
I quoted what page defines. None of what you've said is included. It does include wargear, but the TL Bolter is not wargear.
Quote your rule. I've hinted at it before - I'll ask outright now
Page 3 does not say what you're asserting. Quote it.
Your silence on these matters is puzzling, as you are aware of the tenets which state you have to back up your argument. So please, Do so.
I have not been silent. I have cited my argument. Please don't disregard my posts.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/15 20:11:13
Subject: Re:CSM Lord gearing question.
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Blood Angel Terminator with Lightning Claws
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This whole tread reminds me of the time I had to explain to a guard player why the master of Ordinance couldn't be his warlord and why he didn't replace the company commander... People will try any amount of rule bending and distortion to get their way...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/15 20:22:18
Subject: CSM Lord gearing question.
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Pulsating Possessed Space Marine of Slaanesh
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Wow, I just spent at least 30 minutes reading up from page 3 and still this thread goes in circles..
The distinction that weapons granted as part of, or bought with, other wargear do not count as weapons, or cannot by replaced (as liturgies claims) I cannot find any rule support for. If someone can provide me with a page number to a rule that does, then that becomes important. If not, it is not an important distinction and that argument is void. Likewise, nowhere does it state that an Artefact can only replace a weapon listed as separate wargear, so that distinction is also irrelevant.
This would in turn mean that the flamer and meltagun included with the mechatendtrils are indeed also replaceable (why should they not be?). The combi-weapons are not two weapons, partly because they are listed as one ranged _weapon_ choice. So no, part of that cannot be replaced. Note the difference, the bike is also one wargear choice, but not a weapon. It comes fitted with a weapon though. The bike is then part of the model, which changes its unit type to Bike etc. The model can then replace one weapon, e.g. the TL boltguns.
So to summarize - No-one has presented any rules specifying that a bike's weapons do not qualify as weapons, or that they are not part of the model. And the RAW say "the model can replace one weapon" so as long as the weapons are part of the model it's clearly allowed by RAW.
As far as I'm concerned it's clear that RAW allow the substitution. Intended? Probably not. Rules bending? Yeah. But allowed if you play strictly by ryles as written - unless someone can quote a rule that prevents it. And since this has not happened in 6 pages I regard it unlikely.. In friendly game context I personally will simply discuss it and decide if we allow it or not in my group, until further clarification by GW.
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/01/15 21:23:31
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/15 21:24:27
Subject: CSM Lord gearing question.
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Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard
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westibestie your distinction on combi-weapons is non-existant. Mechatendrils are listed as one thing, so is a chaos bike and a combi-weapon, I know this because the chaso codex tells me they are one piece of wargear. Also combi-weapons are two weapons in one, the brb says so and it has been quoted for you already.
Either be consistent or admit that you're choosing favourites.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/15 21:25:33
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/15 21:30:03
Subject: CSM Lord gearing question.
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The Hive Mind
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westiebestie wrote:The combi-weapons are not two weapons, partly because they are listed as one ranged _weapon_ choice. So no, part of that cannot be replaced.
You're going to assert this despite the rule I've quoted proving that there are 2 weapons?
That's interesting. Not what the rules say, but interesting.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/15 21:45:25
Subject: CSM Lord gearing question.
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Pulsating Possessed Space Marine of Slaanesh
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liturgies of blood wrote:westibestie your distinction on combi-weapons is non-existant. Mechatendrils are listed as one thing, so is a chaos bike and a combi-weapon, I know this because the chaso codex tells me they are one piece of wargear. Also combi-weapons are two weapons in one, the brb says so and it has been quoted for you already.
The one thing in my post I am not convinced about are combi-weapons, they are a grey area and as such I am not going to be pushy about my intepretation on the wording. I'm happy to leave that as, again, no-one is saying it's possible to replace part of it.
The rest of your statement I don't agree with. The chaos codex tells bikes (and mechatendrils) are wargear, yes. The chaos codex also tells that they include weapons. It also allows that the model that has access to Artifacts may "replace one weapon with..". You however, repeatedly claim that a weapon has to be a separate wargear entry to be replaceable (and/or that the bike's weapons are not part of the model). I see no such rule, can you please clarify which rule you mean? Since there is a written permission in the CSM Codex to replace it, and you claim it is not allowed, you must cite a rule that prevents it. Not just an opinion.
I actually don't favour any of you, you are behaving like children both of you. I personally think it would be good if GW clarified it either way.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/01/15 21:47:30
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/15 21:49:04
Subject: CSM Lord gearing question.
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Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard
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Well it's good that you've called us all children but choosing favourites refers to saying you can't break up a combi-weapon but all the others you can. I've never said that the lord didn't have a tl bolter, what I've consistintly said is that he doesn't have a tl bolter on it's own (or as Rigeld puts it he doesn't have a tl bolter, he has a chaos bike that includes a bolter) and I've asked for some basis for the chopping and changing of parts of wargear.
Thanks for the name calling, come back soon.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/15 21:51:48
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/15 22:22:16
Subject: CSM Lord gearing question.
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Sure Space Wolves Land Raider Pilot
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Liturgies of Blood is just wrong. It clearly says the MODEL may replace a weapon with a combi-melta or Burning Brand, etc. There is no distinction between the Lord model and the bike model which he is riding.
This has not been an issue in any event in which I've ever played., nor should it be.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/15 23:38:46
Subject: CSM Lord gearing question.
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Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard
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Lord krungharr, appeal to authority isn't going to win this for you.
Why are you talking about models again? This has nothing to do with models, there is also 1 model the lord on the bike, not a lord model and a bike model.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/15 23:47:38
Subject: CSM Lord gearing question.
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Blood-Raging Khorne Berserker
South Chicago burbs
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Well, the unit that automatically comes with a bike in the CSM codex (bikers!) specifically mentions being able to swap out the bikes TL Bolter.
I'm going out on a limb here and assuming that other models on bikes in the same codex work the same way. /shrug
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/15 23:52:19
Subject: CSM Lord gearing question.
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Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard
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So you can swap the tl bolter for one of 3 weapons that the chaos lord doesn't have access to? Sure I'm ok with that as it amounts to the same as not being able to break up wargear.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/16 00:22:13
Subject: CSM Lord gearing question.
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Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw
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BarBoBot wrote:Well, the unit that automatically comes with a bike in the CSM codex (bikers!) specifically mentions being able to swap out the bikes TL Bolter.
An interesting point...
The bikers entry has to specifically call out the bikes twin-bolters.
And it even refers to it as the Bike's bolters, not theirs...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/16 02:01:15
Subject: CSM Lord gearing question.
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Blood Angel Terminator with Lightning Claws
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grendel083 wrote: BarBoBot wrote:Well, the unit that automatically comes with a bike in the CSM codex (bikers!) specifically mentions being able to swap out the bikes TL Bolter.
An interesting point...
The bikers entry has to specifically call out the bikes twin-bolters.
And it even refers to it as the Bike's bolters, not theirs...
Yes and this is not an option given anywhere else! Therefore unless stated (given permission to) you cannot switch the twin bolters on the bike for something else.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/16 02:48:07
Subject: CSM Lord gearing question.
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Blood-Raging Khorne Berserker
South Chicago burbs
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The chaos lord does not come with a bike as a default, so why would his listing specifically mention the tl Bolter like chaos bikers do?
The fact that chaos bikers can swap the bikes tl Bolter just as they could any of their other weapons shows that the bikes TL Bolter IS one of the models weapons.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/16 02:49:27
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/16 02:57:59
Subject: CSM Lord gearing question.
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Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw
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BarBoBot wrote:The fact that chaos bikers can swap the bikes tl Bolter just as they could any of their other weapons shows that the bikes TL Bolter IS one of the models weapons.
Strange, because the bikers entry shows the oppersite.
It shows that the twin-bolters are not one of their weapons, and refers to it as the bike's weapon.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/16 02:58:17
Subject: CSM Lord gearing question.
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The Hive Mind
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Does The Lord come with Terminator armor by default?
Because the Terminator armor gives permission to further exchange the weapons. Does the bike?
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/16 07:27:13
Subject: CSM Lord gearing question.
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Pulsating Possessed Space Marine of Slaanesh
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liturgies of blood wrote:Well it's good that you've called us all children but choosing favourites refers to saying you can't break up a combi-weapon but all the others you can.
I did not call you children, i said you are behaving like them. Clearly you are intelligent adults, please behave as it. (I'm refering to you and nos here) You are wasting our time by going in circles and argueing for argueing's sakes and obstructing eachother here.
liturgies of blood wrote:
I've never said that the lord didn't have a tl bolter, what I've consistintly said is that he doesn't have a tl bolter on it's own (or as Rigeld puts it he doesn't have a tl bolter, he has a chaos bike that includes a bolter) and I've asked for some basis for the chopping and changing of parts of wargear.
Yes you've consistenly stated this over and over in this thread for over 6 pages. Could you now please provide a rule reference that makes this differentiation relevant? Then this discussion would be over.
There is ( AFAIK) no rule to make weapons bought as part of other wargear any different than weapons that you have from the beginning. And there is rule support in the CSM codex (PG91, Chaos Artefacts section) to replace one weapon on the model:
"A model can replace one weapon with one of the following. Only one of each Chaos Artefact may be taken per Army."
There are no restrictions in the rule definition. There you have the "basis" for allowing it. So now if you still claim there are restrictions imposed by some other rule, please enlighten me by referring to that rule.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/16 09:13:54
Subject: CSM Lord gearing question.
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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rigeld2 wrote:nosferatu1001 wrote:Rigeld - page 3 tells us what a single model is made up of. Are you arguing that the bolter is not part of the model? Found a rule for that assertion, or one for your assertion that breaking up a piece of war gear on a model needs specific permission?
I quoted what page defines. None of what you've said is included. It does include wargear, but the TL Bolter is not wargear.
Quote your rule. I've hinted at it before - I'll ask outright now
Page 3 does not say what you're asserting. Quote it.
So the bolter weapon on the model isn't war gear on the model? What is it then? The point is page three points out the physical model is a singular entity. It doesn't allow the possibility for anything else. You're stating, probably, that this is possible.
I
Be "hinted" before, but I'm asking outright now - quote the rule stating the bolter that I can point to on the model is NOT part of the model. Page and para.
rigeld2 wrote:Your silence on these matters is puzzling, as you are aware of the tenets which state you have to back up your argument. So please, Do so.
I have not been silent. I have cited my argument. Please don't disregard my posts.
Cite the page that states:
The weapon is not part of the model. You have made this claim, but not cited a page
When you point to a weapon on the model, and are told you can exchange a weapon in the model , that you STILL need further, specific permission because that weapon is part of a set of items, in this case a bike.
I have NOT disregarded your posts, do not be so disrespectful as to state that. I HAVE, repeatedly, required you to provide page and para. You have not done so, that I can see. If you have done, please provide a link to where you have done so.
Liturgies. - still waiting on your page and paras, no false equivalence here. Just waiting on you to back up your assertions, for a change. So far, nothing constructive from you this thread. Shock,
Grendel - belonging to the bike does not preclude it belonging to the model Automatically Appended Next Post: Westiebeastie - I've asked liturgies for this "special permission is required" rule citation since page one, it seems. Apparently it is ok for liturgies to not follow the tenets.
Permission to alter the model, which is the "thing" you point to on the table, IS sufficient permission. Liturgies of course will, not accept that - I assume it is an unwillingness to admit a mistake. Automatically Appended Next Post: rigeld2 wrote:Does The Lord come with Terminator armor by default?
Because the Terminator armor gives permission to further exchange the weapons. Does the bike?
Does permission to alter the model not equate to permission to alter the model? Is the bike not part of the model? Or is the bolter, that I can happily point to on the table, not part of the model?
Page and para for either would be just great
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/01/16 09:19:26
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/16 10:09:09
Subject: CSM Lord gearing question.
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Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard
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Nos, thanks for the insinuations and snide comments. As others have pointed out there is explicit permission to exchange weapons in the biker entry but no such permission exists for the lord. Why does one require specific permission but not the other?
I know you're having fun with the "Is this not a bolter I see before me?" argument but why does the chaos biker squad not say "any" or "one of any" or "one" of the model's weapons? It lists the lot and differentiates the tl bolter? If it is as self-evident as you claim then why is it different?
Westie, you have permission to exchange weapons but not parts of weapons or parts of wargear, without permission to do something you cannot do it. That's how these rules work, nos, believes that sufficient permission has been given. Others disagree with that view specifically due to the chaos biker entry and the general problems and abuses that it allows for. I don't have to show that there is a restriction, permission must be shown.
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/01/16 12:43:42
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/16 11:07:41
Subject: CSM Lord gearing question.
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Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw
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It's an example where they've made a clear distinction between the two.
Also they specifically called out the bikes bolters, rather than just one of the "models weapons".
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2014/01/16 12:57:05
Subject: CSM Lord gearing question.
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Pulsating Possessed Space Marine of Slaanesh
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liturgies of blood wrote:
Westie, you have permission to exchange weapons but not parts of weapons or parts of wargear, without permission to do something you cannot do it. That's how these rules work, nos, believes that sufficient permission has been given. Others disagree with that view specifically due to the chaos biker entry and the general problems and abuses that it allows for. I don't have to show that there is a restriction, permission must be shown.
I agree about permission generally being needed, and permission has indeed been given in the CSM Codex, page 91,Chaos Artefacts section. I quoted that rule above. There is no restriction towards weapons that come with other wargear (e.g. bike and mechatendrils) in that rule. Are you making that up yourself? It seems so, since You are yet to provide a rule which makes that difference relevant at all. You are entitled to that opinion, which you keep telling it over and over, but without a rule to support your case, you are not going to convince that anyone that it is not allowed by RAW. You are just stalling.
I also don't see the Chaos bikers FA entry as relevant to this, unless someone points out a rule that either
a) says that the Lord's upgrade options are the same as that entry, or
b) that weapons eligeble to be replaced has to be listed specifically in the wargear list of the model wanting to replace it, or
c) that weapons that come with other wargear choices are not eligeble to be replaced
I do agree with you about the possible abuse problems though, so GW clarification would be the best.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/01/16 13:00:30
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