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Mmm, too bad GW won't notice the loss of business... I'll wait until I can read the book and make a call on it. I have told people I didn't expect much from the book to begin with considering the poor 5th showing... but oh well.

Never had an interest in playing Tyranids anyway, sucks for those that do play them though if the book is this bad.

I still like GW and their products. Can't understand decisions some times.. but oh well. Soldier on fellow war gamers, soldier on.

 Psienesis wrote:
Replace "Tyranid" with "Tau" and we could replicate the same threads that were being posted before (and at the time of) the Tau Codex was released.

I am getting REALLY tired of this argument. Yes, people whinned about Tau and were wrong. People are whinning about Tyranids but you know what? We have seen the entire codex now. It is exactly the same as the 5th codex except the new units. The new units aren't bringing anything huge to the table that we didn't already have. The new Nids are the old Nids, minus Tervigon spam, so we DO know how this codex is going to be. It is going to be a terribly bland codex with middle of the road power. Maybe there is a hidden power list in here somewhere and I am open to that possibility, but that doesn't change how terribly underwhelming this product is. A lot of iconic units are still trash, trash units are still trash, and the power units of 5th are now just mediocre, but all of this is balanced by the fact that we can run an insane amount of units now.

Tyranids will be just fine, just like CSM are just fine, both codices are trash though. They are bland, uninspired, and poorly written. I love my CSM and still play them DESPITE this. I just wont put up with another $50 codex for any army that is just going to sit on the shelf.

It looks bad. Really bad.

However, I'll wait a couple of weeks until I decide what I think of it.

After all, as an Eldar player I remember being worried about my four Serpents when I heard they were going up in price. Hehehe...

Arbiter_Shade wrote:
but all of this is balanced by the fact that we can run an insane amount of units now.

I keep seeing this, but unless you were running 3 Tyranofexes before, the points adjustment was not nearly enough to see any noticeable chance in model count.

Termagants went down 1 PPM, but if you want Toxin Sacs or Adrenal glands, then you are actually paying 1 PPM MORE than previous; the Tervigon no longer shares those biomorphs.
Hormagaunts went down 1 PPM. 30 points across a full brood of 30 hormies that still won't see the table with the scything talons nerf. Want adrenal glands? Enjoy paying same cost as Termagants for half the benefit.
Gargoyles? Same cost.
Hive Guard? 5 PPM MORE than before.

Most points adjustments are simply not that big. You're looking at 30 points here, 10 points there. You one more MC, or a single brood of gribblies. Certainly nothing "insane" about that.

Have we seen everything? I haven't seen anything, just the bitching and moaning of people who HAVE seen something, and scans from a spanish copy of the book. The hard unassailable facts about the codex (statlines, actual rules wordings, etc.) that I have seen, if anything, to me point to a major boost in power of properly built armies by way of points cuts across the board. Yes Tervigons, Swarmlord, and a couple other units jumped up a few points in cost, but you know what? They were undercosted and overutilized to begin with, this only makes other options look more attractive and more worth taking.

You might say that the costs are insignificant, I say otherwise. In a list where I fielded 27 shrikes, that adds up to a 135 point savings. 90 Hormagaunts saves me 90 points. 3 carnifexes? Fuggedaboudit, i'm saving like another 100 points right there. Most of the griping and butthurt is coming from people that invested in something stupid like 5 Tervigons and/or 3 Trygons and/or sold all their Carnifexes now realizing that they basically have to buy new armies because *SURPRISE* the blatantly broken units that they relied upon and way overused previous edition are now perfectly balanced.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Have we seen everything? I haven't seen anything, just the bitching and moaning of people who HAVE seen something, and scans from a spanish copy of the book. The hard unassailable facts about the codex (statlines, actual rules wordings, etc.) that I have seen, if anything, to me point to a major boost in power of properly built armies by way of points cuts across the board. Yes Tervigons, Swarmlord, and a couple other units jumped up a few points in cost, but you know what? They were undercosted and overutilized to begin with, this only makes other options look more attractive and more worth taking.

There are multiple Dakkanauts with the codex, so yes, we have seen everything. Re: points cost, I summarized the changes to nid units from the 5e dex to the 6e dex. As per my post above, the cost reductions are simply not drastic enough to have any meaningful impact unless you were running 3 tyranofexes. In some cases, point costs jumped insanely for no added benefit. (See: Tyranid Prime remaining unchanged, but going from 80 points to 125 points.)

The book looks like a rush job, and if the rumors posted in this thread are to be believed, it WAS a rush job. Really, there is no other reasonable explanation.

Streamdragon I agree for the most part but the most substantial buffs and point reductions came from the Carnifex. I know for a fact I would run more Carnifex now that they are costed reasonably and are viable now. That is how I see the point changes affecting Tyranids at large. A little bit here and there but a brood of 3 Carnifex are now 120 points cheaper, that is a big deal.

Didn't people say this same gak about the Daemons codex back when it was going to be released? "Oh these units and HQs are gak, this is gak, they've nerfed us blah blah blah" and its now the most OP codex in the game? People need to sit there asses down and shut up sometimes, you don't know how its going to work until you actually use it a few times.

I was really looking forward to this codex. I was expecting pretty much everything to get better pricing at the very least.

Of all the things I've seen thus far, I can't imagine why Hive Guard losing -1BS and getting a 4+ armor instead of 3+ armor warrants a 5pts increase.

Cheaper carnifexes seems like something of a boon, and my nid friend would prefer to run a godzilla army.

It doesn't look very good that far, but I would wait several weeks after release to make proper judgment. I wouldn't recommend buying anything Tyranid other than the codex tomorrow, unless you're a die-hard nid fan.

I've skimmed the codex today, looks atleast stronger than the last book. I love fighting nids, hope the dex does well and brings out the bugs again!

I think there is potential in this codex for some twinking/abuse/TFGing.

I am looking forward to what tactics/builds people will be coming up with. As always with the Tyranids, unit synergy is the biggest thing.

Psienesis wrote:Replace "Tyranid" with "Tau" and we could replicate the same threads that were being posted before (and at the time of) the Tau Codex was released.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Replace "Tyranid" with "Tau" and we could replicate the same threads that were being posted before (and at the time of) the Tau Codex was released.

Or tyranid with necron.

People keep repeating things like this as though they are A) true and B) equivalent in any way.

I remember the run-up to these codices and I remember when they dropped:

Tau had a lot of good buzz and people were mostly very excited. People mostly were disappointed in the flyers (correctly so), the lack of improvement in some subpar units like Vespids (correctly so), and the nerfs to vehicle speeds (correctly so at least insofar as it helped lock Tau into being a gunline). There was a vocal minority of older Tau players who were very disappointed that it became "codex markerlights", but most people didn't really seem to mind, and the response to the markerlight system seemed mostly favorable (perhaps underestimating its power). People also underestimated the Riptide, but no one was saying it was unusable or even bad. Just potentially overpriced or not as powerful as it appeared. Some people were already saying it was OP. The consensus not converging on an answer right away is forgivable; this was a totally new unit and a departure from anything the Tau had ever had access to, so evaluating it was probably difficult until people had a chance to run them. Most people realized the power of things like the supporting fire rules pretty quickly. I don't remember anyone saying Tau would be weaker than before. The general consensus was that they got a decent boost at the very least.

Verdict: Mostly favorable opinion, underestimated power level somewhat, especially on new and radically different unit.

Eldar had even fewer leaks than usual from what I recall, so it was hard to tell what was coming out until we got a flood of info near the end. People were excited about battle focus and the BS buffs (correct), opinions were split on the new wraighknight (some said OP, some said overpriced). Most of the Aspect warriors looked ok, but there was a lot of disappointment over the Howling Banshees (correct). People were also disappointed about Dire Avengers and to a lesser extent guardians until pseudo-rending was revealed on shuriken weapons, at which point people realized they were pretty damn good. People were also disappointed in the price of the wave serpent, but once the serpent shield was revealed I remember most people thinking it was at least ok if not pretty powerful, but a totally weird and unexpected way to design the wave serpent. Took awhile for it to be commonly known how broken the wave serpent was.

Verdict: Mostly favorable opinion, underestimated power level due to broken unit and ways in which the allies matrix could be abused for wombo-combos.

Necrons are probably the least relevant codex you could bring up besides maybe Dark Eldar. We're talking a ground-up redesign of the codex with a TON of brand new units and big changes to iconic rules like We'll Be Back. This was also a 5th edition dex, and Necrons were not truly broken until 6th edition, where changes to core rule mechanics gave them a lot of big buffs they didn't pay for points-wise or even need (high hull points on standard vehicles, jink saves everywhere, vehicles priced like skimmers transformed into flyers, etc). So between some grognards being resistant to big changes, the general inability of anyone to evaluate a massively overhauled codex without playing a lot of games, and the lack of clairvoyance to predict what 6th would soon do to the codex, I don't see how you could point to Necrons as similar to what's going on with Nids now.

Verdict: Why did you even bring this up?

With the Tyranid codex, the 5th edition codex is already underwhelming and relies on things like Tervigon spam and Biomancy to stay afloat against more powerful armies. We already know this. The crux of all this drama is that as leaks kept coming, people already familiar with the Nids saw that the useless units weren't getting fixed, crutches were being removed left and right, entire build options were invalidated by removing units (see Mycetic spore), and little nerfs were popping up left and right. Nearly the only things going for the Nids were point reductions and new units/artifacts, and the promise of potential army-wide rules no one had seen yet. Well, the new stuff is not that hard to evaluate just from the rules - the artifacts are flat-out bad and aren't game changers. The new units can be evaluated pretty easily as they're similar enough to existing Nid units and/or fill similar roles - the Crone is a Harpy clone with better weapons (not durable enough, low damage output, especially for the points cost). The Haruspex is the answer to a question no one asked ("How can I, as a Tyranid, kill enemy infantry?") and isn't even good at it, but at least it puts a monstrous creature in the Elites slot. And the Exocrine, at least that has some promise for offering medium ranged AP2, but it's a little underwhelming. And now the codex is entirely leaked and there are no hidden rules like Bladestorm to unexpectedly save things.

Verdict: Disappointing. Lots of missed opportunities. It looks significantly weaker than the old dex, but I'm sure cumulative point reductions will help and sneaky combos will emerge. Expect it to be about the same as the old dex power-wise.

Calgar has the right of it.

Arbiter_Shade wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Replace "Tyranid" with "Tau" and we could replicate the same threads that were being posted before (and at the time of) the Tau Codex was released.

I am getting REALLY tired of this argument. Yes, people whinned about Tau and were wrong. People are whinning about Tyranids but you know what? We have seen the entire codex now. It is exactly the same as the 5th codex except the new units. The new units aren't bringing anything huge to the table that we didn't already have. The new Nids are the old Nids, minus Tervigon spam, so we DO know how this codex is going to be. It is going to be a terribly bland codex with middle of the road power. Maybe there is a hidden power list in here somewhere and I am open to that possibility, but that doesn't change how terribly underwhelming this product is. A lot of iconic units are still trash, trash units are still trash, and the power units of 5th are now just mediocre, but all of this is balanced by the fact that we can run an insane amount of units now.

Tyranids will be just fine, just like CSM are just fine, both codices are trash though. They are bland, uninspired, and poorly written. I love my CSM and still play them DESPITE this. I just wont put up with another $50 codex for any army that is just going to sit on the shelf.

So you're butthurt that the Tyranids did not become the cheesefest that the Tau did, even though it took a few weeks for people to figure out the Tau cheese?

 ultimentra wrote:
Didn't people say this same gak about the Daemons codex back when it was going to be released? "Oh these units and HQs are gak, this is gak, they've nerfed us blah blah blah" and its now the most OP codex in the game? People need to sit there asses down and shut up sometimes, you don't know how its going to work until you actually use it a few times.

See my explanation for Necrons above. Daemons was a huge re-write, almost every unit changed dramatically and the whole army's composition and play style was different. Consensus about them was mixed because no one could properly evaluate such a different dex. Even this long after the fact I think the Daemon dex is middle of the road without abusing the 2++ re-rollable nonsense.

The biggest changes to the Nid codex were negative, but the codex overall is not that different from the 5th dex. I'd say only the impact of reduced points costs are a wildcard now. Maybe it will make up for sweeping nerfs elsewhere, maybe not. Look for a few exploitable combos to be found to make up for the drop in power level eventually and the codex to remain mid to bottom tier.

 ultimentra wrote:
Didn't people say this same gak about the Daemons codex back when it was going to be released? "Oh these units and HQs are gak, this is gak, they've nerfed us blah blah blah" and its now the most OP codex in the game? People need to sit there asses down and shut up sometimes, you don't know how its going to work until you actually use it a few times.

I borrowed my friend's Eldar codex and knew within 30 min how they were going to work. No experience necessary; just some maths.

 Psienesis wrote:

Arbiter_Shade wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Replace "Tyranid" with "Tau" and we could replicate the same threads that were being posted before (and at the time of) the Tau Codex was released.

I am getting REALLY tired of this argument. Yes, people whinned about Tau and were wrong. People are whinning about Tyranids but you know what? We have seen the entire codex now. It is exactly the same as the 5th codex except the new units. The new units aren't bringing anything huge to the table that we didn't already have. The new Nids are the old Nids, minus Tervigon spam, so we DO know how this codex is going to be. It is going to be a terribly bland codex with middle of the road power. Maybe there is a hidden power list in here somewhere and I am open to that possibility, but that doesn't change how terribly underwhelming this product is. A lot of iconic units are still trash, trash units are still trash, and the power units of 5th are now just mediocre, but all of this is balanced by the fact that we can run an insane amount of units now.

Tyranids will be just fine, just like CSM are just fine, both codices are trash though. They are bland, uninspired, and poorly written. I love my CSM and still play them DESPITE this. I just wont put up with another $50 codex for any army that is just going to sit on the shelf.

So you're butthurt that the Tyranids did not become the cheesefest that the Tau did, even though it took a few weeks for people to figure out the Tau cheese?

No, CSM can cheese pretty hard too. You're missing the point. No one wants to rely on one cheesy unit or a cheesy unit combo to be competitive. Just like CSM would rather have a well-designed codex with a broader base of decent units instead of a codex that clearly did not attempt to fix any old units and added broken or useless new ones instead.

It remains to be seen how much of an impact the points reductions will have for bringing old units back from the dead. Carnifexes are a good buy now almost for sure, Tyrannofexes are a better buy too. Mawlocs are looking much better. Heavy support is getting crowded. Virtually everything else looks the same or worse. Dealing with enemy flyers is still a problem - Crones do not have the damage output or staying power, so Flyrants will stay en vogue.

Like I said, I expect people to find some cheese to keep the codex alive, but I don't expect it to change the competitive meta at all.

CSM is a pretty miserable codex both to play with (army swap) and against. If I can kill/minimize the helldrakes, they are in for a long day. Yeah, spawn are a thing, but they are very mortal compared to Tau/Eldar/Daemons.

No one wants to rely on one cheesy unit or a cheesy unit combo to be competitive

Hasn't that been the Tyranid bag for a few years now? Ironarm on giant bugs and Doom to basically eat people via wi-fi?

 Psienesis wrote:

No one wants to rely on one cheesy unit or a cheesy unit combo to be competitive

Hasn't that been the Tyranid bag for a few years now? Ironarm on giant bugs and Doom to basically eat people via wi-fi?

Yes, the Nids have been stuck with one good build since 6th dropped. We had all hoped that the new dex fixed it. We were wrong.

 Psienesis wrote:

No one wants to rely on one cheesy unit or a cheesy unit combo to be competitive

Hasn't that been the Tyranid bag for a few years now? Ironarm on giant bugs and Doom to basically eat people via wi-fi?

Yeah. I think people were hoping for that to no longer be necessary.

My biggest worry right now is that Instinctive Behavior is seriously bad and through a combination of changes, synapse units are not going to be durable enough, and thus Troops will not be durable enough.

Loss of Iron Arm, plus hitting the Tervigon with the nerf bat till it popped, means you will have fewer, weaker synapse creatures (compared with the old 2+ Tervigons build), so it will be easier to eliminate your synapse, or at least remove coverage somewhere important. Once that happens, the odds are roughly 30% every turn that each unit will randomly run away or hurt itself (odds of failing Ld 6 is about 60%, then 50/50 chance of rolling the bad Instinctive Behavior result). Taking a Prime and attaching it to literally ANYTHING to keep it alive longer is probably going to be mandatory now, which is probably why the Prime's point value went up 50% without any changes to the unit itself.

Martel732 wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

No one wants to rely on one cheesy unit or a cheesy unit combo to be competitive

Hasn't that been the Tyranid bag for a few years now? Ironarm on giant bugs and Doom to basically eat people via wi-fi?

Yes, the Nids have been stuck with one good build since 6th dropped. We had all hoped that the new dex fixed it. We were wrong.

Technically speaking, it was indeed "fixed". It was just "fixed" the same way you "fix" your dog or cat...

 Psienesis wrote:

Arbiter_Shade wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Replace "Tyranid" with "Tau" and we could replicate the same threads that were being posted before (and at the time of) the Tau Codex was released.

I am getting REALLY tired of this argument. Yes, people whinned about Tau and were wrong. People are whinning about Tyranids but you know what? We have seen the entire codex now. It is exactly the same as the 5th codex except the new units. The new units aren't bringing anything huge to the table that we didn't already have. The new Nids are the old Nids, minus Tervigon spam, so we DO know how this codex is going to be. It is going to be a terribly bland codex with middle of the road power. Maybe there is a hidden power list in here somewhere and I am open to that possibility, but that doesn't change how terribly underwhelming this product is. A lot of iconic units are still trash, trash units are still trash, and the power units of 5th are now just mediocre, but all of this is balanced by the fact that we can run an insane amount of units now.

Tyranids will be just fine, just like CSM are just fine, both codices are trash though. They are bland, uninspired, and poorly written. I love my CSM and still play them DESPITE this. I just wont put up with another $50 codex for any army that is just going to sit on the shelf.

So you're butthurt that the Tyranids did not become the cheesefest that the Tau did, even though it took a few weeks for people to figure out the Tau cheese?

I can't even begin to argue with this level of stupid. Where on earth do you get that I want Tyranids to be cheese like Tau? Is this the same mentality that leads people to think that 5th favored assault even though every tournament list was filled with shooting? See how ridiculous is is to insult someone then bring up something that isn't even related to what is being discussed?

Listen. People whine about every release, it is true. Most of the time they are wrong. But in this case, it really isn't hard to see how bad the new Tyranid codex is because it is the exact same codex minus all of the good things from 5th edition. Seriously, go look at the codex right now it has been completely leaked, it is the same codex sans everything that made the 5th one able to compete. There is no magic bullet hidden in there like Screamstar. A viable melee unit needs a couple of things to work and in 6th that thing is a 2++ rerollable save. Well good news for the people who hate this kind of cheese there are exactly 2 invul saves in all of the Tyranid codex and niether of them can be modified in anyway. This codex has such a lack of options that there isn't going to be a whole lot of hidden gems, most everything is pretty much a straight stat line with no special rules. The funniest things in the codex are the questionable wording on the Pyrovore and Deathleaper/Spore Mine bomb. That is part of the problem with this codex, everything is just as it is. There are no really nifty special rules, no synergy, just straight up stat lines. It is the same problem that the 5th codex had and the 6th continues the lineage that is sub-par Tyranid Codices.

And in case anyone missed it the first time I said it, this codex WILL be playable. It will work just fine against most list and play decently at a noncompetitive level. The PROBLEMS with the codex are that it removes more options than it adds, it adds nothing new to the game, it address a single problem with the 5th codex, because credit where credit is due Carnifex will actually be worth running now, and there are just questionable changes riddling the entire book. There is no controversy about how good any of the new units are going to be because they are so straight forward in what they do and how they do it that it can be plainly seen if you just read the codex. The Exocrine is going to be a decent shooty bug that can take a beating. It isn't going to wow anyone like the Riptide did because it can't be buffed by outside sources with the exception of FNP, it shoots plasma and it shoots a good amount of plasma. It will be great against MEG but less than useful against anything else. It doesn't have the range to threaten things like DE or IG, it can be tied up in melee fairly easily due to WS3 A3, but man will it kill TEQ and MEQ by the dozen! As if MEQ wasn't already falling into disuse in 6th because of the insane amount of things that just flat out ignore armor. The new fliers are...well one isn't new and still bad and the one new flier is...lacking? It isn't going to kill any enemy fliers before it goes down itself, it is squishy as all get out, and it will more than likely never get to use its 4+ save. The Haruspex is again, lacking, at WS3 A3 it isn't going to wow anyone but it will get the job done, as long as that job is to kill MEQs. A swarm will tarpit the hell out of it because it only gets A3 after its charge. It is tanky as all get out though, I will give it that.

I am not calling this codex unplayable. It is nowhere near Eldar/Tau. It is playable. I am just massively disappointed in what COULD have been a great opportunity to breath new life into a stagnating army.

I'm definitely not happy with the new Tyranids but I'm not going to boycott them. I guess it is more disappointment than anything.

I saw what Tau, Eldar, and SM got, and that made me excited for what Tyranids MIGHT get. So I followed all the rumors and continually built up my excitement. "Oh man, this is going to be great." is what I kept telling myself. But then the day came and I got to see everything and is was nothing like I thought it would be. It was not another Tau or Eldar, or even SM like codex. That disappointment then turned to anger and frustration. From the looks of the Tyranid Rumor thread, I'm not the only one either. What could have been was not what was. Especially since Tyranids can't supplement their weaknesses with Allies like every other book can.

My guess is that things will turn out like the CSM codex. Only a few units will actually be worth taking, 1 or 2 builds will actually be decent and they will probably focus on spamming 1 good unit, much like helldrake spam. The rest will be ignored or played "just for fun".

 streamdragon wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:

No one wants to rely on one cheesy unit or a cheesy unit combo to be competitive

Hasn't that been the Tyranid bag for a few years now? Ironarm on giant bugs and Doom to basically eat people via wi-fi?

Yes, the Nids have been stuck with one good build since 6th dropped. We had all hoped that the new dex fixed it. We were wrong.

Technically speaking, it was indeed "fixed". It was just "fixed" the same way you "fix" your dog or cat...

You sir, win.

I feel bad for our Nid player. He does not play competetively in the slightest. This nerf will make it difficult for him to win games. (He already loses more than he should.)

Leaks aside, they could just be leaking what they think is bad to stir the pot.

I'd wait till the codex releases for everyone, before we grab the torches and pitchforks

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Leaks aside, they could just be leaking what they think is bad to stir the pot.

The codex, you mean?

Good plan. . . .

 kirsanth wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Leaks aside, they could just be leaking what they think is bad to stir the pot.

The codex, you mean?

Good plan. . . .

Wasnt aware the entirety of it was leaked. Last i saw it was most of it.

Leaked?
It is out for many.