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 the shrouded lord wrote:
I can't decide wether or not to be offended TBH.
I stated clearly that we had models we like the look of, not models nessacerily good in-game.
I mean seriously, we woke up at ten in the morning and went
Literally: "dude, wanna get a game in before you have to leave?"
"yeah, you wanna use marines or 'nids?"
"I'l use nids, you use marines and your chaos."
It was the most casual game I've had, it was also fun.
You know, FUN. Where you do seme thing you like, not something that will win.
Damn. I mean, I was just trying to give my experience and opinion.

Don't be offended. I personally enjoyed your post, not everything needs to be hyper competitive just like not everything should be beer & pretzels.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Don't be offended. I personally enjoyed your post, not everything needs to be hyper competitive just like not everything should be beer & pretzels.

I think the point a lot of us have been making is that regardless of your play-style, there are deficiencies in the Tyranid Codex that can't be explained away with a "Only competitive players care about that" or "Just play to have fun" type of response.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Don't be offended. I personally enjoyed your post, not everything needs to be hyper competitive just like not everything should be beer & pretzels.

I think the point a lot of us have been making is that regardless of your play-style, there are deficiencies in the Tyranid Codex that can't be explained away with a "Only competitive players care about that" or "Just play to have fun" type of response.

Hey I don't know if you've been reading but I've nonstop fully agreed with all this.

As does the shrouded lord, even if his list sucks he still agrees that the new codex is terrible, which just shows the sentiment is universal to all levels of skill (hopefully).

Well let's hope so. I wish it wasn't this way, but it's good to see that when something really bad for the game occurs (most) people actually sit up and take notice.

 the shrouded lord wrote:
I can't decide wether or not to be offended TBH.
I stated clearly that we had models we like the look of, not models nessacerily good in-game.

Ignore him. That was rude, but perhaps with no intention. He is a competitive player and they have this "bragging" thing. Do not take that seriously.

Most players are NOT competitive and only play (and enjoy) casual games. I have never played an "optimized" list in my life, and hope I never will.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Well let's hope so. I wish it wasn't this way, but it's good to see that when something really bad for the game occurs (most) people actually sit up and take notice.

I agree, my hope isn't that this dex has had a negative affect towards casuals where possible, just that people realise when they are being fed a sub-par meal. Because that way they know they can fight for the quality cuisine !

Oh yeah, I don't think I've actuely said it yet, sorry, the new codex is crap. I mean, there are some things that look good , tail biomorphs point reductions, but you tourney-goers are fethed. And to those saying "don't compare to taudar, let's face it, that IS the average tourney list. Personally, I'm going to keep playing tyranids, I play against wraith-dar (my own army), space marines (no vehicles), chAos ( my best friends army), and necrons (again mine. No flyers) so I don't really have anything to worry about.
Except of course for GW damn killing my parasite of mortrex.
But other people, those who play against tau and stuff, are totally destroyed. Tervigon spam was so expensive you didn't see it much, but at least it stood a chance against the aforementioned. Now the only thing I can see working is as many synapse and carnifexes crammed into a list as possible.
Also, what's a dataslate?

That actually raises a good point. Tournament players didn't lose the Parasite, Doom, Mycetic Spores and Ymgarl Genestealers.

Everyone lost them.

We need to remember that.

 the shrouded lord wrote:
Oh yeah, I don't think I've actuely said it yet, sorry, the new codex is crap.

Well you made a battle report with an end game summary describing basically all your units as useless piece's of gak except for the Hive Tyrant, so I don't think you have to specifically state that you personally aren't ecstatic with the new codex.

Especially after making multiple posts throughout different threads, with varying uses of capitalization, and a bunch of hits on the swear filter each time, conveying your reaction to GW's decision to cut a certain model.

I loved it....

 the shrouded lord wrote:
Oh yeah, I don't think I've actuely said it yet, sorry, the new codex is crap. I mean, there are some things that look good , tail biomorphs point reductions, but you tourney-goers are fethed. And to those saying "don't compare to taudar, let's face it, that IS the average tourney list. Personally, I'm going to keep playing tyranids, I play against wraith-dar (my own army), space marines (no vehicles), chAos ( my best friends army), and necrons (again mine. No flyers) so I don't really have anything to worry about.
Except of course for GW damn killing my parasite of mortrex.
But other people, those who play against tau and stuff, are totally destroyed. Tervigon spam was so expensive you didn't see it much, but at least it stood a chance against the aforementioned. Now the only thing I can see working is as many synapse and carnifexes crammed into a list as possible.
Also, what's a dataslate?

A "dataslate" is a horrendous monstrosity recently created by GW to turn this game into hell. It is the equivalent of video-games´ DLCs. You pay for them and you get a handful of pages for one single model or one "formation" to use with your Codex. The first one introduced Be´Lakor, a named character for Chaos, and the most eagerly expected gave us back the beloved Cypher. The problem is that many dataslates introduce completely broken units, absolutely over the top, so a "competitive" player can pay more than the rest and easily defeat them. Particularly bad are the Formations, that do not include new units or fluff: paying will allow you to use the same units you have with additional, completely broken rules, and that´s all. Pure, undiluted, shameless "pay for win".

So you get the Tyranids Codex and it is crap. On purpose. But GW has already announced dataslates for it. Perhaps they will include the Parasite of Mortrex. Or the Doom. Or fix the Genestealers. Or the Lictors. So you pay for a broken Codex and then pay for the fixes. Fixes that were already written before-hand. See? Like those video-game DLCs that appear a week after the game is released.

It is the last step of this company towards eternal damnation. I hope this blows in their faces.

 da001 wrote:

 the shrouded lord wrote:
Oh yeah, I don't think I've actuely said it yet, sorry, the new codex is crap. I mean, there are some things that look good , tail biomorphs point reductions, but you tourney-goers are fethed. And to those saying "don't compare to taudar, let's face it, that IS the average tourney list. Personally, I'm going to keep playing tyranids, I play against wraith-dar (my own army), space marines (no vehicles), chAos ( my best friends army), and necrons (again mine. No flyers) so I don't really have anything to worry about.
Except of course for GW damn killing my parasite of mortrex.
But other people, those who play against tau and stuff, are totally destroyed. Tervigon spam was so expensive you didn't see it much, but at least it stood a chance against the aforementioned. Now the only thing I can see working is as many synapse and carnifexes crammed into a list as possible.
Also, what's a dataslate?

A "dataslate" is a horrendous monstrosity recently created by GW to turn this game into hell. It is the equivalent of video-games´ DLCs. You pay for them and you get a handful of pages for one single model or one "formation" to use with your Codex. The first one introduced Be´Lakor, a named character for Chaos, and the most eagerly expected gave us back the beloved Cypher. The problem is that many dataslates introduce completely broken units, absolutely over the top, so a "competitive" player can pay more than the rest and easily defeat them. Particularly bad are the Formations, that do not include new units or fluff: paying will allow you to use the same units you have with additional, completely broken rules, and that´s all. Pure, undiluted, shameless "pay for win".

So you get the Tyranids Codex and it is crap. On purpose. But GW has already announced dataslates for it. Perhaps they will include the Parasite of Mortrex. Or the Doom. Or fix the Genestealers. Or the Lictors. So you pay for a broken Codex and then pay for the fixes. Fixes that were already written before-hand. See? Like those video-game DLCs that appear a week after the game is released.

It is the last step of this company towards eternal damnation. I hope this blows in their faces.

So, there might be a parasite of mortrex?
Ha ha ha!
GW expects me to pay money for that? Have they not heard of the internets!
Usually I don't approve of "scan-and-print" especially considering a tau codex I purchased off eBay, but If this happens, I'm printing it from the dark places of the Internet, cause that is bull gak. How much does a "data slate" cost? I assume you buy it online and it is a PDF file?

 da001 wrote:

 the shrouded lord wrote:
Oh yeah, I don't think I've actuely said it yet, sorry, the new codex is crap. I mean, there are some things that look good , tail biomorphs point reductions, but you tourney-goers are fethed. And to those saying "don't compare to taudar, let's face it, that IS the average tourney list. Personally, I'm going to keep playing tyranids, I play against wraith-dar (my own army), space marines (no vehicles), chAos ( my best friends army), and necrons (again mine. No flyers) so I don't really have anything to worry about.
Except of course for GW damn killing my parasite of mortrex.
But other people, those who play against tau and stuff, are totally destroyed. Tervigon spam was so expensive you didn't see it much, but at least it stood a chance against the aforementioned. Now the only thing I can see working is as many synapse and carnifexes crammed into a list as possible.
Also, what's a dataslate?

A "dataslate" is a horrendous monstrosity recently created by GW to turn this game into hell. It is the equivalent of video-games´ DLCs. You pay for them and you get a handful of pages for one single model or one "formation" to use with your Codex. The first one introduced Be´Lakor, a named character for Chaos, and the most eagerly expected gave us back the beloved Cypher. The problem is that many dataslates introduce completely broken units, absolutely over the top, so a "competitive" player can pay more than the rest and easily defeat them. Particularly bad are the Formations, that do not include new units or fluff: paying will allow you to use the same units you have with additional, completely broken rules, and that´s all. Pure, undiluted, shameless "pay for win".

So you get the Tyranids Codex and it is crap. On purpose. But GW has already announced dataslates for it. Perhaps they will include the Parasite of Mortrex. Or the Doom. Or fix the Genestealers. Or the Lictors. So you pay for a broken Codex and then pay for the fixes. Fixes that were already written before-hand. See? Like those video-game DLCs that appear a week after the game is released.

It is the last step of this company towards eternal damnation. I hope this blows in their faces.

Lol, hyperbole much? For real, your valid point gets lost in overstatement. For what its worth, I agree with you. Dataslates are a scam, judging by the way they have been implemented recently. The FOC just gets in the way of people spending money. I have about 4000-5000 points of tyranids that I am putting back in the display case until such time as they are made playable in at least a semi-competitive environment. They still won't get my money, but I will use their rules. Vanguard may mean that I can mitigate the entirely sub-par codex and get back to using nids.

I apologize for my rudness about the level of competitiveness I merely pointed it out to show how those results may have shown good things for nids, but were scewed by unoptimised choices and tactics (like if a race car was going up against a sportscar but the race car could only go into 1st gear but the sportscar could go into 2nd, see how that may scew the results of the race?)

 the shrouded lord wrote:

(...) How much does a "data slate" cost? I assume you buy it online and it is a PDF file?

Behold, and know despair: http://www.blacklibrary.com/games-workshop-digital-editions
Do a search for "Dataslate". The equivalent in Fantasy are called "Battlescroll".

The first price was 3.49 €
Cypher was eagerly expected, so it was 12.99 €
After the tyranids release, they have become 5.99 €

 AesSedai wrote:

Lol, hyperbole much? For real, your valid point gets lost in overstatement. For what its worth, I agree with you. Dataslates are a scam, judging by the way they have been implemented recently. The FOC just gets in the way of people spending money. I have about 4000-5000 points of tyranids that I am putting back in the display case until such time as they are made playable in at least a semi-competitive environment. They still won't get my money, but I will use their rules. Vanguard may mean that I can mitigate the entirely sub-par codex and get back to using nids.

Yeah hyperbole, I don´t think they have damned their souls with this. I think they lost their souls some time ago.

It is a money-grabbing, with things like Be´Lakor being the shiny face of it. And it calls to the worst in the soul of competitive players: pay us and you don´t get fluff, don´t get models, don´t get anything save two pages with a couple of rules...

I also like the fact that, in one single month, they have moved from 3.49 to 5.99. I hope it is 7.99 in April and 15.99 in June. "Get the last rules for your Riptides! Prove those losers you are the Best General Ever! Only 15.99 € stays in your path to glory!!." Hilarious.

 A GumyBear wrote:
I apologize for my rudness about the level of competitiveness I merely pointed it out to show how those results may have shown good things for nids, but were scewed by unoptimised choices and tactics (like if a race car was going up against a sportscar but the race car could only go into 1st gear but the sportscar could go into 2nd, see how that may scew the results of the race?)

This speaks well of you

Anyway, I do not think your post was rude. At least for me. You were actually right. When I said "Ignore him. That was rude" I was referring to another post.

I don't begrudge a corporation its money grab. After all, I know firsthand that GW is reaping the fruit of their actions.

 AesSedai wrote:
I don't begrudge a corporation its money grab. After all, I know firsthand that GW is reaping the fruit of their actions.

Oh so you work in the sales figures team then?

 Medium of Death wrote:

 AesSedai wrote:
I don't begrudge a corporation its money grab. After all, I know firsthand that GW is reaping the fruit of their actions.

Oh so you work in the sales figures team then?

Yeah, I am curious too.

Unless you mean they are using the benefit to reap bananas in order to pay some of the people writing the rules and background. I was told they now accept to be paid in bananas.

They are a publicly traded company. As such, they have to release their financial information.

That said, despite price increases and such, their profit has stagnated the last few years from my understanding. Which means that while they are making more per unit sold, they are selling less units.

 da001 wrote:

 Medium of Death wrote:

 AesSedai wrote:
I don't begrudge a corporation its money grab. After all, I know firsthand that GW is reaping the fruit of their actions.

Oh so you work in the sales figures team then?

Yeah, I am curious too.

Unless you mean they are using the benefit to reap bananas in order to pay some of the people writing the rules and background. I was told they now accept to be paid in bananas.

Really? I heard it was beer.

Maybe pretzels as a bonus.

 da001 wrote:

 Medium of Death wrote:

 AesSedai wrote:
I don't begrudge a corporation its money grab. After all, I know firsthand that GW is reaping the fruit of their actions.

Oh so you work in the sales figures team then?

Yeah, I am curious too.

Unless you mean they are using the benefit to reap bananas in order to pay some of the people writing the rules and background. I was told they now accept to be paid in bananas.

I like bananas

 Medium of Death wrote:

 AesSedai wrote:
I don't begrudge a corporation its money grab. After all, I know firsthand that GW is reaping the fruit of their actions.

Oh so you work in the sales figures team then?

Sure do boss. Is this a safe place to post my LinkedIn profile?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Tsunai wrote:
My big issues are the little changes... like adjusting "Units within __ inches" to "MODELS within __ inches" for everything from Synapse to Venomthrope forcing us to cluster all of our models together in such a way that we become template fodder.

What frightens me more is the fact that the people who made those changes might not even appreciate just how much they changed the rule, and take a really flighty "Oh just play it the way we meant" attitude which is 100% the wrong attitude to take to writing rules.

There is no such thing as RAI until human develop telepathy. There is only RAW.

 da001 wrote:

Ignore him. That was rude, but perhaps with no intention. He is a competitive player and they have this "bragging" thing. Do not take that seriously.

Most players are NOT competitive and only play (and enjoy) casual games. I have never played an "optimized" list in my life, and hope I never will.

I never played a non optimized list and even those lists we call for casual seem to be viewed as OP here . Never seen anyone play or even buy bad armies .

And if something thinks that the problem with the nid dex hits the tournament players your dead wrong. The top will just switch codex , others will just play the stuff which is good , ending up with a mono build . But the real problem is going to be for those noob players , who will play against their friends noob armies and get kicked around by those .

Makumba wrote:

 da001 wrote:

Ignore him. That was rude, but perhaps with no intention. He is a competitive player and they have this "bragging" thing. Do not take that seriously.

Most players are NOT competitive and only play (and enjoy) casual games. I have never played an "optimized" list in my life, and hope I never will.

I never played a non optimized list and even those lists we call for casual seem to be viewed as OP here . Never seen anyone play or even buy bad armies .

And if something thinks that the problem with the nid dex hits the tournament players your dead wrong. The top will just switch codex , others will just play the stuff which is good , ending up with a mono build . But the real problem is going to be for those noob players , who will play against their friends noob armies and get kicked around by those .

This is true. People like me who are stuck with one army are hurt the worst. At least BA become "Blood Hands" which a couple of red-sprayed TFCs.

Makumba wrote:
Cool , only your crones are huge models and are getting battered from turn 1 on by opponents skyfire units and they will be the first on the table so flyers will get a round of shoting on them first. the only thing they counter "good" is other FMC

A lack of imagination does not constuitute good advice. You reserve Hive Crones if they are there to fight flyers. Obviously. So no. You're not shooting them turn 1. and in turn 3 when they show up, you'll have your hands full with gaunts and other various and sundry monsters. If not, the game is already lost anyways. The Crones are also, btw, not bad in combat and can help crash the party where needed.

Makumba wrote:

 da001 wrote:

Ignore him. That was rude, but perhaps with no intention. He is a competitive player and they have this "bragging" thing. Do not take that seriously.

Most players are NOT competitive and only play (and enjoy) casual games. I have never played an "optimized" list in my life, and hope I never will.

I never played a non optimized list and even those lists we call for casual seem to be viewed as OP here . Never seen anyone play or even buy bad armies .

Really? Optimized? As in always the best and only the best?

So if tomorrow a Dataslate is released giving you an unfair advantage for just 12.99 you will run to get it, refusing to play a single game until you are "optimized" again? And if your Codex is released and half your units have been nerfed you rush to buy a new army from the scratch, regardless of the money, and never play a single time with nothing but the best?

And you have never seen anybody who do otherwise? Everyone you know run to the shop to buy the newest piece of overpowered stuff GW poops every week? Do you really never saw a player buying a model just because he thought the model was cool, or the background of the unit / army? Everyone you know buys based on min-maxing the chances to win? Seriously?

Wow. I don´t know if you are being sarcastic. I hope you are. If you are not, you are the first really competitive player I have ever heard of. You must have an awful lot of money to invest in this money too. I sort of envy you.

 da001 wrote:

Makumba wrote:

 da001 wrote:

Ignore him. That was rude, but perhaps with no intention. He is a competitive player and they have this "bragging" thing. Do not take that seriously.

Most players are NOT competitive and only play (and enjoy) casual games. I have never played an "optimized" list in my life, and hope I never will.

I never played a non optimized list and even those lists we call for casual seem to be viewed as OP here . Never seen anyone play or even buy bad armies .

Really? Optimized? As in always the best and only the best?

So if tomorrow a Dataslate is released giving you an unfair advantage for just 12.99 you will run to get it, refusing to play a single game until you are "optimized" again? And if your Codex is released and half your units have been nerfed you rush to buy a new army from the scratch, regardless of the money, and never play a single time with nothing but the best?

And you have never seen anybody who do otherwise? Everyone you know run to the shop to buy the newest piece of overpowered stuff GW poops every week? Do you really never saw a player buying a model just because he thought the model was cool, or the background of the unit / army? Everyone you know buys based on min-maxing the chances to win? Seriously?

Wow. I don´t know if you are being sarcastic. I hope you are. If you are not, you are the first really competitive player I have ever heard of. You must have an awful lot of money to invest in this money too. I sort of envy you.

I just don't think they quite understood exactly what it was they were saying... Obviously they prefer a casual playstyle and think we're all the stereotypical WAAC-job.

 Jancoran wrote:

Makumba wrote:
Cool , only your crones are huge models and are getting battered from turn 1 on by opponents skyfire units and they will be the first on the table so flyers will get a round of shoting on them first. the only thing they counter "good" is other FMC

A lack of imagination does not constuitute good advice. You reserve Hive Crones if they are there to fight flyers. Obviously. So no. You're not shooting them turn 1. and in turn 3 when they show up, you'll have your hands full with gaunts and other various and sundry monsters. If not, the game is already lost anyways. The Crones are also, btw, not bad in combat and can help crash the party where needed.

And how does that change being hit by skyfire/interceptors other armies run? Against other flyers this at best means they have a 50% chance to come out of reservs after they do .They suddenly become more survivable , just because they are in reservs . And while they are in reservs on turn 1 there are fewer options for the AA guns to shot at and ending with the tyrants dieing sooner .

They will never reach melee , so that is hardly a argument in their favor . I

Really? Optimized? As in always the best and only the best?

Yes , it is better to play a good army and have fun most of the time , then play a bad army , have a bad time and try to force others to play bad armies too , so you have a chance to win . When of course your not playing to win ,because wining is bad .

So if tomorrow a Dataslate is released giving you an unfair advantage for just 12.99 you will run to get it, refusing to play a single game until you are "optimized" again? And if your Codex is released and half your units have been nerfed you rush to buy a new army from the scratch, regardless of the money, and never play a single time with nothing but the best?

If it is in the rules then there is no such thing as unfair . And I have never seen anyone refuse a game here , because someone thinks his opponent is too tough. Not liking the other person , being the supporter of a different football team . Yeah those things happened and probably will , not playing because someone plays a legal army is not something we do .

And you have never seen anybody who do otherwise? Everyone you know run to the shop to buy the newest piece of overpowered stuff GW poops every week? Do you really never saw a player buying a model just because he thought the model was cool, or the background of the unit / army? Everyone you know buys based on min-maxing the chances to win? Seriously?

yes people buy good armies and stick to them . The better the armies , the longer they can play them without changing and the more people buy the armies . No one wants to play an army which will be bad for 4 years and then maybe gets a good codex. Because most people play the games only for some time . And if by background you mean w40k fluff then it is kind of a stupid and most of the time doesn't make sense . I don't see how someone could spend cash on an army on units that will never work like the fluff tells they do . Would be a huge waste of money too , if the units someone likes also happen to suck .

Wow. I don´t know if you are being sarcastic. I hope you are. If you are not, you are the first really competitive player I have ever heard of. You must have an awful lot of money to invest in this money too. I sort of envy you.

Unless someone can live out of playing w40k , and that is I think limited to people in the GW design team , there are no competitive players runing GW games.

@Makumba: first things first, thanks for the reply. I was concerned that it could be taken as rude or as an attack. Instead you took your time to answer everything I posted.

Let me assure you I respect whatever view you have of the game. But our opinions of what is the most important part of the hobby couldn´t be more different! In my opinion, the rules suck like no tomorrow. Three reasons:
1: They are poorly worded. The number and length of "You Make Da Call"´s threads gives a correct impression of how confusing this game can get. It is a game supposed to be played without really caring about the rules (the "just roll a dice" thing).
2: They are too random. You create a brilliant tactic yet a 1 or a 6 destroys it. And it happens every turn.
3: They are lacking balance. The people writing them has expressed many times that they do not pretend them to be balanced, they do not care for competitions. They just write stuff that sounds fun. And Formations (and other stuff) are money grabbings: they give an edge to players who pay for getting rules. Nothing else. You pay for the rule that benefits you. That´s like paying the referee.

I played chess competitively for some time, and it was a blast. Every time you win you know it is because you have oursmarted your enemy in a fair match. Every defeat teaches you something about tactics. And if you are really good at it, you can make a living out of it.

I wouldn´t be here if it wasn´t for the background, which I love. The game is a way to bring it to life. And properly prepared models help me to visualize the story the game is telling. I have a blast every time I play, regardless of winning or losing, as long as the battle is "fun". If I table my opponent in turn 3 I do not feel good, and neither if he tables me. And playing with a "better" list is like playing chess with the other person playing without bishops. What´s the point?

No offense intended, but I will not play against a competitive player with a list far better than mine, it would be like a chess player proposing me to play against him without some pieces, to help him to win. With the additional embarrasment of the other person thinking that he is a better player than me because he has more pieces. A fair match is a good match.

Have you tried some way to know who is actually the better player? Like playing with your list and then playing again after exchanging armies with your rival.

---- Sorry for the off-topic. I was curious.
on topic again:

Makumba wrote:
(...)
And if something thinks that the problem with the nid dex hits the tournament players your dead wrong. The top will just switch codex , others will just play the stuff which is good , ending up with a mono build . But the real problem is going to be for those noob players , who will play against their friends noob armies and get kicked around by those .

I think otherwise.

People who care for tournaments who have invested money in tyranids will just switch codex... which implies a lot of money and effort, just because the Codex is not good enough. The problem hits them on the wallet, and depending on the person that may be really bad.

On the other side, people who are new to the army will enjoy it, not knowing better, as long as they stay away of competitions. Sure they will lose a lot, but they will probably lose with Tau too, until they learn the game. And they will learn quickly with a difficult, weak army than with an easy, strong army.

Martel732 wrote:
(...)
People like me who are stuck with one army are hurt the worst. At least BA become "Blood Hands" which a couple of red-sprayed TFCs.

Then do not get stuck with one army.

Get some units from other armies and play them, you will learn a lot about the setting and the game by switching sides this way. Allies help this a lot.