Your thoughts on new Tyranids Codex?

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**Phazael**

The thing that I am going to miss more than anything else is the character classification that certain MC units had, notably the Trygon Prime and Tervigon, though I rarely used the latter. The ability to challenge is something I used on these guys to great effect to extend their lifespan. It meant I would not be quickly ground down by a single power fist squad leader or tooled out character. Precision shots on the Trygon Prime was also a nice feature. But now, if a unit has a hidden fist in it, I get to eat wounds from it, meaning that your average Tactical squad grinds me out before I grind them out, especially without the rerolls. And that's not even getting into the likely wounds I lose on the approach to Plasma and Missiles.

Pods would be a very close second. As someone who sometimes used a large unit of warriors, pods were a way for me to get them in close to where half the squad might make it into combat. Now not only do the same warriors cost more while being less effective (AP3 Boneswords, Scything nerf), but you get to get mowed down by bolters before a single model sees a fight. And that's a fluff bunny unit, not even a serious tourney unit. I guess their plan is to make people use Trygon tunnels, since now there is literally no other option for deep strike.....

**lord_blackfang**

Carnifexes used to be even cheaper in 4th and even then they were barely cutting it as gun platforms and were near useless for melee. And the average power level of the game was much lower then. There were no Jaws, barely any poison, no "pass a single stat test or die" gak. They're really incredibly bad now.

Building the current basic Fex under the 4th ed. codex would have cost 113 pts, exact same stats and everything. You could buy him T7, or a 2+ save, or frag grenades, not to mention all sorts of crazy things like spore generators. And all that was barely cutting it then.

**JPong**

Why do people keep going on about HoW hits on a carnifex? Whoopdie do, d3 Str 9 hits AP - hits. They don't help vs infantry that matter (anything with a high save). They don't help vs infantry that don't matter (low save units tend to have tons of guys anyways, and are cheap and unimportant). It misses the key value of Str 10, so it doesn't ID toughness 5 guys.

The only thing it helps against is vehicles. Guess what a carnifex already kills really well in melee, if they can catch em? Guess what HoW doesn't help a carnifex do?

**Andilus Greatsword**

Zande4 wrote:
Gunzhard wrote:

Personally with ALL of the newer codex I truly hate the organization and this one is particular bad in that regard. You have to flip back to several different sections just to generate one unit.

Now this I can agree with, I absolutely hate the new layout in the 6th edition Codices it's a fail of epic proportions..

Yeah totally agreed. I loved the layout in 5th ed, this "streamlining" in 6th Codices is just irritating.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

JPong wrote:
Why do people keep going on about HoW hits on a carnifex? Whoopdie do, d3 Str 9 hits AP - hits. They don't help vs infantry that matter (anything with a high save). They don't help vs infantry that don't matter (low save units tend to have tons of guys anyways, and are cheap and unimportant). It misses the key value of Str 10, so it doesn't ID toughness 5 guys.

The only thing it helps against is vehicles. Guess what a carnifex already kills really well in melee, if they can catch em? Guess what HoW doesn't help a carnifex do?

Unfortunately, you have to actually *catch* things with a Carnifex use that...

**Makumba**

Well I don't think the codex is good , but it is better to have d3 HoW , then not having it .

**JPong**

Makumba wrote:
Well I don't think the codex is good , but it is better to have d3 HoW , then not having it .

Sort of. If the ability were totally free, then yes, it is obviously better. However, from a game design perspective, we know the ability isn't free. Therefore if you're paying for it, it has to provide something new and useful. Since the ability is only really useful against vehicles, we need to look at the carnifex's ability to kill vehicles. The carnifex was already really good at ccing vehicles. That makes this ability of marginal use. It's not enough attacks to make a dent against swarms, and it has no AP making it of little use against elite units

If it were to give the carnifex new options, or utility to do something it couldn't do before, then it would be good. I would rather the fex be 5-10 points cheaper than get a useless ability. Think of the tyrant for example. He is paying for WS 8, which, as long as that stupid chart stays the way it is, 2-3 WS is almost always useless. It's paying for useless utility.

**Makumba**

GW never realy was good at costing units . When they are doing strick specialist units for stuff like eldar , it works great , because you get BS 9999 and rest is meh , but you will use this unit only to shot . But when they do those jack of all trades units they suck at it , just like you say . High WS on BS units making them cost too much , stupid melee abilities shoting units will never use . I know those units as an IG player to be stuff like ogruns, storm troopers or RR.

**bodazoka**

Carnage43 wrote:
bodazoka wrote:
How is a Dakkafex laughably bad?

Because it's still not good. People are stuck on the "It's 40 points CHEAPER! So it MUST be good now!" mind set. The thing is, it was AWFUL in 5th edition, and the 40 point decrease still doesn't bring it into line with other good monstrous creatures.

It's main issues is that it tries to be a swiss army knife unit, and all the roles it tries to fill can be done better by other units.

Anti-Infantry? 19 Devourer gaunts or 3 biovores will do it better. Gaunts will do it at the same range, and biovores will do it at twice the range and without LoS.
Anti-vehicle? Hive Guard will do this better, as would a Crone I imagine. The loss of the spore pod really kills them in this role, as having to walk across the board and shoot at front armor really stings.
Melee? 3 WS3 attacks with no rerolls, even at S9 AP2, is impressing no one. Hell, Assault Centurions can beat these guys in combat point for point, and they are not very good. The only thing these guys shine against in melee is T4 multi-wound creatures (which are basically extinct) and dreadnoughts (also extinct). 80% of the book is better in melee than these guys.
Deathstar/tough unit? 38+ points per T6 wound is not very good on T6 3+ save with no invul. A riptide is 40 points per wound, but gets a 2+/5++, Canotpyk Spiders are 25 for T6 3+, a base dreadknight is 32.5 for 2+/5++. Carnifexes are pretty much the least survivable monstrous creatures in the game point for point.
Anti-air? Leave that to your winged tyrants and/or crone

It's a swiss army knife unit that tries to be good at several things, but ends up second rate at all of them. It's tactical squad syndrome all over again. Some people like units like this, but personally, I think they are awful. I much prefer a unit that is the unrivaled best at it's role, with anything else it can do being gravy. To add insult to injury, it's in the highly contested heavy support slot, so taking fexes means less biovores/exocrines/whatevers.

Yeah na.. you said "Laughably bad"

A TMC with a 12 x shot Str 6 twin linked gun for 120 + Gun's (cant remember the cost off the top of my head) is not a laughably bad unit...

**Nukes4You**

I'm a brand new tyranid player and a new-ish 40k player in general but I personally quite like the book. Maybe that is simply because I don't know what previous codices were like; but this book seems to stand up to the Tau and Space Marine books fine. At least in friendly games anyway. I have friends who play both Tau and Space Marines and I don't see either of those books as outclassing the Tyranids. That's just me though!

**Martel732**

Plain marines haven't outclassed too many lists in quite a while. I'm not so sure the Nids stand up to the Tau, but maybe.

**Jancoran**

Martel732 wrote:
Plain marines haven't outclassed too many lists in quite a while. I'm not so sure the Nids stand up to the Tau, but maybe.

Youtube has a few battle reports up now.

**Carnage43**

bodazoka wrote:
Carnage43 wrote:
bodazoka wrote:
How is a Dakkafex laughably bad?

Because it's still not good. People are stuck on the "It's 40 points CHEAPER! So it MUST be good now!" mind set. The thing is, it was AWFUL in 5th edition, and the 40 point decrease still doesn't bring it into line with other good monstrous creatures.

It's main issues is that it tries to be a swiss army knife unit, and all the roles it tries to fill can be done better by other units.

Anti-Infantry? 19 Devourer gaunts or 3 biovores will do it better. Gaunts will do it at the same range, and biovores will do it at twice the range and without LoS.
Anti-vehicle? Hive Guard will do this better, as would a Crone I imagine. The loss of the spore pod really kills them in this role, as having to walk across the board and shoot at front armor really stings.
Melee? 3 WS3 attacks with no rerolls, even at S9 AP2, is impressing no one. Hell, Assault Centurions can beat these guys in combat point for point, and they are not very good. The only thing these guys shine against in melee is T4 multi-wound creatures (which are basically extinct) and dreadnoughts (also extinct). 80% of the book is better in melee than these guys.
Deathstar/tough unit? 38+ points per T6 wound is not very good on T6 3+ save with no invul. A riptide is 40 points per wound, but gets a 2+/5++, Canotpyk Spiders are 25 for T6 3+, a base dreadknight is 32.5 for 2+/5++. Carnifexes are pretty much the least survivable monstrous creatures in the game point for point.
Anti-air? Leave that to your winged tyrants and/or crone

It's a swiss army knife unit that tries to be good at several things, but ends up second rate at all of them. It's tactical squad syndrome all over again. Some people like units like this, but personally, I think they are awful. I much prefer a unit that is the unrivaled best at it's role, with anything else it can do being gravy. To add insult to injury, it's in the highly contested heavy support slot, so taking fexes means less biovores/exocrines/whatevers.

Yeah na.. you said "Laughably bad"

A TMC with a 12 x shot Str 6 twin linked gun for 120 + Gun's (cant remember the cost off the top of my head) is not a laughably bad unit...

So your response is "Nuh uh, IT'S GOOD!" with nothing to back that up. No math, no comparisons, not even a silly anecdote of "Well it killed 75 space marines last game for me!". Nothing? Well, I'm certainly convinced.....<cough>

As far as the tyranid codex goes, I'd rate the dakka dex as poor to mediocre. In the grander scheme of things, it's laughably bad.

xttz wrote:
Carnage43 wrote:

Anti-Infantry? 19 Devourer gaunts or 3 biovores will do it better. Gaunts will do it at the same range, and biovores will do it at twice the range and without LoS.

19 guants will die to a stiff breeze
Where's your venomthrope/cover save? You were taking it into effect further down in the survivability argument. 19 guants with a 3+ cover save are actually tougher to remove with every weapon in the game (barring ignores cover stuff of course) than a carnifex. I could number crunch it for you, but the 19 wounds offsets the toughness advantage against small arms when they are both getting a 3+ cover save. Plus the gaunts are scoring. I'm not going to legitimately try to argue that 19 guants is tougher to kill than a carnifex, but give optimal circumstances....they kinda are.

Carnage43 wrote:
Anti-vehicle? Hive Guard will do this better, as would a Crone I imagine. The loss of the spore pod really kills them in this role, as having to walk across the board and shoot at front armor really stings.

Comparing typical number of glances+pens, a single dakkafex will do much better than Hive Guard against AV10/11, and about the same VS AV12. The indirect fire and ignoring cover is useful, but then again so is volume of fire and re-rolls to hit for getting snapshots when needed.

Of course there's nothing to stop you taking both units, and really the decision comes down to the rest of your list and if Elite or HS slots are more valuable. Also don't forget Onslaught can help to close the gap.
HG have better range, ignore cover and don't need line of sight. The ignore cover alone is enough to tip the scales. You are also 6 wounds vs 4 (although 3+ vs 4+ save....4+ is WAY worse) but that's somewhat needless as the HG shouldn't even be taking any fire since they don't need LOS. Instant death against T4 is gravy. Again, I think this is a largely silly argument, and you know it too. I'll admit it's probably closer than I'd like to admit, and the carnifexes' other advantages will tip the scales in it's favor in a TAC environment.

Just because I'm curious;

AV10; Carni (4HP, 0.50 destroyed), HG (2.16HP, 0.33 destroyed) Clear carni win here, but both are likely to blow up a 3HP vehicle in 1 volley, and almost certain to kill a 2HP. In a case of cover, the carni still has the edge.
AV11 Carni (2.75HP, 0.25 destroyed), HG (1.75hp, 0.25 destroyed) Clear carni win here, it's toasting a rhino fairly solidly, where the HG are only doing 2/3 damage. In a case of 5+ cover they are pretty much dead even though.
AV12 Carni (1.5HP, 0 destroyed), HG (1.33HP, 0.17 destroyed) Dead even, maybe with a minor edge to Hive Guard because of the damage on the vehicle chart. In a case of cover the HG have the clear edge.
AV13+ HG obviously win.

Your numbers checkout. The only issue I see is with the carnifexes in units....they are super overkill against AV10 and AV11, at least multiple HG units have pseudo split fire. Looks like the BS3 nerf on HG hurt more than I thought really. Going to have to reconsider anti-tank I think.

Carnage43 wrote:
Melee? 3 WS3 attacks with no rerolls, even at S9 AP2, is impressing no one. Hell, Assault Centurions can beat these guys in combat point for point, and they are not very good. The only thing these guys shine against in melee is T4 multi-wound creatures (which are basically extinct) and dreadnoughts (also extinct). 80% of the book is better in melee than these guys.

This is a rather poor comparison:
1) Centurions are a very specialised unit equipped with relatively rare I4 AP2 weapons perfectly designed to kill MC's in melee. Would you tell people not to take Flyrants because Quad-guns exist? I think that match-up is far more likely to happen too.
2) How hard can it be to avoid melee with a Slow and Purposeful unit anyway, especially when your MC can take Fleet?
3) You skipped over the automatically-hitting bonus HoW attacks, which on a S9 unit can be pretty significant.
4) You didn't finish your sentence:
"The only thing these guys shine against in melee is T4 multi-wound creatures (which are basically extinct) and dreadnoughts (also extinct) AND ALSO ANY VEHICLE EVER"

Statisically, 2 Fexes with no upgrades are likely to wreck or explode virtually anything AV13 or below in one round of combat. Throw on Adrenal Glands and they're likely to take out AV14 in one round too.

Something else interesting to note is that Fexes with Frag Spines will now always get to attack before any powerfists or other Unwieldy weapons. This can make a huge difference in their survivability against infantry.

Not a great comparison, I'll admit. Just the first S9 AP2 melee unit I could think of. As for the comparison itself, I didn't mean against one another but against other targets. 2.5 Cents will do more melee damage and will stand up to small arms better than a carnifex in melee...sadly.

The D3 HoW attacks aren't anything to write home about, since it's only +1 attack on average over a non-carnifex MC. The real issue has been outlined above; not enough attacks to affect hordes, no AP to affect elite troops and it's overkill against vehicles when you already have 4 S9+ attacks.

As for avoiding melee, well, at least the centurions have transports....the carnifexes are always walking. If you spring for adrenal glands, you driving the prices up even more.

Carnage43 wrote:
Deathstar/tough unit? 38+ points per T6 wound is not very good on T6 3+ save with no invul. A riptide is 40 points per wound, but gets a 2+/5++, Canotpyk Spiders are 25 for T6 3+, a base dreadknight is 32.5 for 2+/5++. Carnifexes are pretty much the least survivable monstrous creatures in the game point for point.

By throwing on Shrouded or FNP onto one them, the whole unit benefits. This can help squeeze the most from Venomthropes or Catalyst. It's also pretty easy to pull off wound allocation shenanigans by shuffling position, letting them stay around longer.

The Riptides and Dreadknight comparisons perplex me, as they're not in the Tyranid codex and therefore aren't an alternative option to Carnifexes. Trygons and T-fexes would have been a better comparison, but of course the number of points per wound isn't the only factor in picking a unit or you'd be telling us to spam Mawlocs.

The dread/riptide/spyder comparison is to show how poorly the tyranid codex in general and carnifexes in particular, is balanced externally against other books. You are correct about the points per wound though, again it's just to illustrate just how expensive and fragile they are in the grander scheme. We both know that venomthropes are going to eat dirt before anyone fires anything significant at the carnifexes, and while catalyst on the unit is actually pretty awesome, it still won't overcome the gap that other book's MCs have in terms of survivability....and if we are getting into third party psyker buffs in a comparison....well, god help the carnifexes in that case.

Carnage43 wrote:
Anti-air? Leave that to your winged tyrants and/or crone

What if I don't want to buy a Crone, and only own one Flyrant? Relying on FMCs generally means building a list around several of them for redundancy, and results in a boring mono-build style a la the old Tervigon list. Plus I bet there's more of us out there with multiple Fexes than multiple Crones.
Of course. A lot of us have carnifex heavy armies from 4th edition, and Crones are the new kids on the block. As for mono-builds....well, the codex will be boiled down eventually, and it's not like it's brimming over with top notch competitive choices.

It's all very well saying you want specialised units to perfectly counter everything that can be thrown at you, but in reality that's hardly practical. Opponents do something unexpected, crucial dice rolls go the wrong way, key units can get caught out of place or lost at a bad time, and plans unravel. Sometimes it is better to have a few generalist units that can switch role when needed. Carnifexes can fill a gap when your Crone gets Quad-gunned to death on arrival, or your Flyrant fails that key grounding test. I don't get how you can say a unit is 'awful' just because it isn't the mathematically optimal choice for a specific situation.

A Carnifex isn't perfect for most roles, but it's good at a lot of them. And in the codex that brought us the Pyrovore, Genestealers and Rippers, I think that's great.

This is a personal thing more than anything. I've played marines even longer than Nids, and I have grown to DETEST "flexible" units. In GW speak, that basically means that they are bad at everything for their points, but are never completely helpless. It's a choice to "mitigate bad situations" when you should be aiming to "maximize optimal situations". I'd rather build an army of optimal specialists and let my skill dictate how well I do, than use more flexible units in fear of being out played/maneuvered. Like I said, mostly a personal philosophy thing.

Thanks for the well written response. It's a joy to argue against well formed arguments.

**bodazoka**

Carnage43 wrote:
So your response is "Nuh uh, IT'S GOOD!" with nothing to back that up. No math, no comparisons, not even a silly anecdote of "Well it killed 75 space marines last game for me!". Nothing? Well, I'm certainly convinced.....<cough>

As far as the tyranid codex goes, I'd rate the dakka dex as poor to mediocre. In the grander scheme of things, it's laughably bad.

No.. It really isn't.

You wan't an argument refer to the other guy's response to your post, I agree with his assertions in all of that.

**USNCenturion**

Im a long time marine player but I picked up this book and am going to start a new nids army with it. Instead of vitriol and rehashing old arguments, can we divert this topic to maybe talking about what is good in the book? I would like to see peoples opinions of how to use the new codex as it is in a positive light and not bash the book incessantly for how bad it is perceived.

Thanks!

**Makumba**

Well you need to play in a set up that makes it possible for synaps to survive . This means no escalation ,the stronghold codex is tricky , because on one hand you can get huge forts to hide your venomothrops , but on the other hand there are D shoting weapons in it . You shouldn't be playing against armies that can ignore cover and which can alfa strike without D weapons . If a nid player loses venoms or half his synaps turn 1 , playing stops making sense .
A lot of the good options are good in a void , but not so good when the whole army is seen as one force. The dakka tyrants are kill wise the best tyrants , but they die much faster then the foot slogging ones . And working synaps is more important then a being a bit more shoty , because if your opponent loses from you fielding one or two FMCts , then it probably doesn't matter what kind of a nid army your playing.
The back field section is pre made . Biovores got , I would say better, some will say different , but never bad. There are no synaps units other then the tervigon to baby sit them . Puting a tyrant or zoanthrops would be a waste of points, warriors die too fast and taking a prime to do it is a lot of points , low resiliance and burning and HQ slot. No idea why GW didn't make primes 4 per HQ slot like they did with heralds .

With lack of pods and in the age where almost every army can use anti scout or anti infiltrationt tech , the "tactics" are more or less a zerg rush . Two turns of moving and lets hope there is enough of me left to kill the opposing army. turn 1-2 are the most important , because nids are very glas type of army . If the synaps units get killed in those turns the whole army can fall over . I think the minimum of synaps units for a 1500 army is around 4-5 and imo most of the time it is going to be a walking tyrant +bodyguards, zoanthrops ,prime in a unit of zerglings , tervigon for the back section and a unit of warriors , which may die fast . Although when opposing army can kills 2-3 synaps per turn it probably doesn't matter , if they are taken or not and if the opposing army can't do it , then they are at worse shoting magnet with synaps.

**Hivefleet Oblivion**

After a couple of triies.... Flyrants are buffed, maybe even beyond the loss of biomancy. The extra BS makes a real difference, last night both my flyrants got Warp Blast, and splattered the Warlord second turn.

Last night we faced a good HH Mechanicus list, lots of Toughness 7. Mawloc, proxied two exocries, Crone and a Harpy. THe Crone is great, harpy mediiocre... but the old nid tactics of getting in the enemy's face and dominating the space work even better with more flyers. We scraped it 12 kill points to 10, and I doubt we would have done better with our old list. If we can run Carnifexes as troops wiht the upcoming dataslate, we'll be tougher than before.

**Makumba**

What does good and HH mechanicus mean ? good as in good in w30k or good in w40k ?

**Hivefleet Oblivion**

A tough list, according to others who've faced, used by one of the group's most experienced players.

They were tough opponents, and keeping everything in synapse was a real plate-spinning exercise. But very enjoyable. If we get to use carnifexes as troops, we reckon we might end up in a better place.

Of course I understand that some people, on the basis of looking at entries, claim the army is broken and uncompetitive, and will dismiss the odd game reports as unrepresntative. That's kinda how we felt once we lost all our pods. But we're feeling cautiously optimistic, and are enjoying experimenting - and take more notice of others who are doing the same, like jy2 or NIB, than those who dismiss the codex on the basis of reading it, rather than playing it.

(None of that means we aren't annoyed about zoeys being nerfed, raveners still unusable, or the prospect of paying out for dataslates. It just means, shock horror, we are enjoying ourselves).

**Makumba**

I probably worded this wrong . I don't know w30k armies are like , they are FW and FW is not played around here . So I don't have a scale to check what good w30k army is .

**Hivefleet Oblivion**

Makumba wrote:
I probably worded this wrong . I don't know w30k armies are like , they are FW and FW is not played around here . So I don't have a scale to check what good w30k army is .

My bad. They look amazing and they are nearly all toughness 7. We'll try and get a copy of the list and post it. It's not our oppo's tourney list. We won, on balance, prioritising his threats and bringing them down one by one, whereas he found it harder to prioritise because four flyers, plus gargoyles and mawloc, were onto him by turn 2.

We made a few errors, we left his tanks, which turned out to be v powerful, with preferred enemy, and we lost both flyrants, the crone, the harpy, 19 gargoyles, one exocrine, one biovore, 30 out of 45 gaunts and, on the last turn, the mawloc (which smashed a couple of his units to death), but we controlled or challenged all the objectives. A classic bug-hunt with piles of bodies.

But it was a great battle, wouldn't have minded if we lost because the opponents were painted beautifully... didn't know who'd won until we did the maths at the end. Should've photographed it, but our crones are only primed so didn't bother.

**xttz**

Carnage43 wrote:

HG have better range, ignore cover and don't need line of sight. The ignore cover alone is enough to tip the scales. You are also 6 wounds vs 4 (although 3+ vs 4+ save....4+ is WAY worse) but that's somewhat needless as the HG shouldn't even be taking any fire since they don't need LOS. Instant death against T4 is gravy. Again, I think this is a largely silly argument, and you know it too. I'll admit it's probably closer than I'd like to admit, and the carnifexes' other advantages will tip the scales in it's favor in a TAC environment.

Just because I'm curious;

AV10; Carni (4HP, 0.50 destroyed), HG (2.16HP, 0.33 destroyed) Clear carni win here, but both are likely to blow up a 3HP vehicle in 1 volley, and almost certain to kill a 2HP. In a case of cover, the carni still has the edge.
AV11 Carni (2.75HP, 0.25 destroyed), HG (1.75hp, 0.25 destroyed) Clear carni win here, it's toasting a rhino fairly solidly, where the HG are only doing 2/3 damage. In a case of 5+ cover they are pretty much dead even though.
AV12 Carni (1.5HP, 0 destroyed), HG (1.33HP, 0.17 destroyed) Dead even, maybe with a minor edge to Hive Guard because of the damage on the vehicle chart. In a case of cover the HG have the clear edge.
AV13+ HG obviously win.

Your numbers checkout. The only issue I see is with the carnifexes in units....they are super overkill against AV10 and AV11, at least multiple HG units have pseudo split fire. Looks like the BS3 nerf on HG hurt more than I thought really. Going to have to reconsider anti-tank I think.

Yeah BS3 really put me off Hive Guard this time around. I'd probably still be keen on them if it was easier to stick PE on them, but now the only option to do that is the Swarmlord, which is silly.

Carnage43 wrote:

Not a great comparison, I'll admit. Just the first S9 AP2 melee unit I could think of. As for the comparison itself, I didn't mean against one another but against other targets. 2.5 Cents will do more melee damage and will stand up to small arms better than a carnifex in melee...sadly.

The D3 HoW attacks aren't anything to write home about, since it's only +1 attack on average over a non-carnifex MC. The real issue has been outlined above; not enough attacks to affect hordes, no AP to affect elite troops and it's overkill against vehicles when you already have 4 S9+ attacks.

Free HoW attacks are a big deal when it comes to vehicles, and really tip the scales against AV13/14. They make up for the loss of To Hit re-rolls and can easily get that crucial extra HP down that kills the vehicle rather than having it drive away the next turn. Being able to double-out Nobz and other characters with automatic hits is also a nice benefit, even if no AP means you can't guaruntee it. Although to be honest, I think that's a BRB issue, and high-strength HoW attacks should be getting an AP value.

This is a personal thing more than anything. I've played marines even longer than Nids, and I have grown to DETEST "flexible" units. In GW speak, that basically means that they are bad at everything for their points, but are never completely helpless. It's a choice to "mitigate bad situations" when you should be aiming to "maximize optimal situations". I'd rather build an army of optimal specialists and let my skill dictate how well I do, than use more flexible units in fear of being out played/maneuvered. Like I said, mostly a personal philosophy thing.

Yeah I think it's more personal preference. In contrast, I tend to dislike hyper-optimised net lists (such as 3x Tervigon 3x10 Termagant in the old codex, or 2x Flyrant 3x Crone now), as I find them boring and they often require buying a bunch more stuff to win. After this half-assed codex the last thing I want to do is reward GW by dropping nearly £150 on 3 Crones. I'd rather make the best of it with what I have.

Carnage43 wrote:
Thanks for the well written response. It's a joy to argue against well formed arguments.

Indeed. You're right in that Fexes aren't an optimal solution for anything really, but I wanted to address the comment saying that they're "awful". For internal balance purposes with the rest of this codex, I think you could do far worse.

**MephistonLoD**

Martel732 wrote:
Plain marines haven't outclassed too many lists in quite a while. I'm not so sure the Nids stand up to the Tau, but maybe.

Played 2 games against Tau last night, won both. And one of them was with my Mawloc mishapping and dying. Ended the game with 3 Warriors, 3 Hive Guard, my Flyrant, my Tyrannofex, 2 Hormagaunts, and 1.5 groups of 10 Termagants left (The heroes that held the Relic turn 5!) The use of cover and so many T6 multiwound monsters was really the winner here. That and I got some really good rolls for the new run mechanicac on the Hormagaunts pressuring him to focus them down before he ripped his entire backfield apart. The Flyrant also rolled the psyker power that decreased D3 WS and D3 BS, which GREATLY helped control the Riptide... He was nearly useless the entire game. The Flyrant whiped out Markerlight support and the rest was just delaying the inevitable.

Also, I love Hiveguard. Depending on your terrain they can really stir up gak with those impaler cannons. Had my Mawloc not killed itself, it would've been extremely one sided.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Seriously this Codex does not suck. I fricken love it. I've wanted to play Nids for so long and decided to wait for the new Dex and bought a 2000 point used army from a local player and it's now certainly going to be my main.

Now keep in mind I did win those games yes, whatever... but i'm also a for fun player, I could've lost those games and still loved the new Nids. Too me the new synapse is actually alot of fun, gives you something to think about! I couldn't be happier with my purchase

**Jancoran**

Tyranids can really hit Tau where they dont like to get hit: Up close ansd personal and with no way to stop it. I am tyhinking they will definitely give Tau and Mechdar some serious headaches.

**Makumba**

The Flyrant also rolled the psyker power that decreased D3 WS and D3 BS, which GREATLY helped control the Riptide... He was nearly useless the entire game.

The as in one Riptide , a tau army with 1 riptide . Cool . What build was he using and how did you avoid your tyrant being hurt ?

**LiveForTheSwarm**

Makumba wrote:
The Flyrant also rolled the psyker power that decreased D3 WS and D3 BS, which GREATLY helped control the Riptide... He was nearly useless the entire game.

The as in one Riptide , a tau army with 1 riptide . Cool . What build was he using and how did you avoid your tyrant being hurt ?

It was only a 1000 point game. He had a lot of Fire Warriors, some suits, and some Path Finders, Devil Fish, and a Riptide. The Tyrant did lose 3 wounds but that was from ALOT of fire, allowing the Hormagaunts/Termagaunts/Hive Guard/Warriors to move into position pretty much unscathed. But with a Riptide hitting on 6's, it was a lot less scary and it got ignored once all the scoring units died. (I am the roommate by the way).

Had that Mawloc survived... it would've been ugly.

**Gunzhard**

Makumba wrote:
The Flyrant also rolled the psyker power that decreased D3 WS and D3 BS, which GREATLY helped control the Riptide... He was nearly useless the entire game.

The as in one Riptide , a tau army with 1 riptide . Cool . What build was he using and how did you avoid your tyrant being hurt ?

Exactly - your opponent must have been a newb or not using a 'good' list cuz the "veterans" in this thread have assured us that Tau will snipe all of your synapse dead on turn 1.

Here is a 2k nid versus tau (spammy 3 riptide) batrep that could've easily gone either way, but again the Tau player must've been a newb cuz the synapse didn't all die immediately. http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2014/01/40k-batrep-tyranids-vs-tau-2k-double-foc.html

**Martel732**

Actually, I see Eldar as being harder on synapse than Tau. I'm hoping big fat bugs might keep some pie plates at home. Eldar firepower is too perfect. Practically everything in the game is vulnerable to massed S6/7 from long range.

**Ravenous D**

Gunzhard wrote:
Makumba wrote:
The Flyrant also rolled the psyker power that decreased D3 WS and D3 BS, which GREATLY helped control the Riptide... He was nearly useless the entire game.

The as in one Riptide , a tau army with 1 riptide . Cool . What build was he using and how did you avoid your tyrant being hurt ?

Exactly - your opponent must have been a newb or not using a 'good' list cuz the "veterans" in this thread have assured us that Tau will snipe all of your synapse dead on turn 1.

Here is a 2k nid versus tau (spammy 3 riptide) batrep that could've easily gone either way, but again the Tau player must've been a newb cuz the synapse didn't all die immediately. http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2014/01/40k-batrep-tyranids-vs-tau-2k-double-foc.html

So you're evidence is non standard points where the game isn't close to balanced. Okay, I see you have a heavy stock of this:

**Gunzhard**

Ravenous D wrote:
Gunzhard wrote:
Makumba wrote:
The Flyrant also rolled the psyker power that decreased D3 WS and D3 BS, which GREATLY helped control the Riptide... He was nearly useless the entire game.

The as in one Riptide , a tau army with 1 riptide . Cool . What build was he using and how did you avoid your tyrant being hurt ?

Exactly - your opponent must have been a newb or not using a 'good' list cuz the "veterans" in this thread have assured us that Tau will snipe all of your synapse dead on turn 1.

Here is a 2k nid versus tau (spammy 3 riptide) batrep that could've easily gone either way, but again the Tau player must've been a newb cuz the synapse didn't all die immediately. http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2014/01/40k-batrep-tyranids-vs-tau-2k-double-foc.html

So you're evidence is non standard points where the game isn't close to balanced. Okay, I see you have a heavy stock of this:

So 2000-points against a spammy (3 riptide) Tau list isn't standard or even close to balanced? ...well according to this thread the Tau should have a MAJOR advantage and win on turn 1 - certainly not close to balanced I guess.

**Savageconvoy**

That Tau list looks to be about 60 points short.
Or maybe they didn't write the list right.
Since they gave the commander equipment to reroll BS2 markerdrones and let them ignore cover, just so he can't shoot his two guns which I have never seen used in that combination.

And the list already has the more expensive upgrades in it, so if the commander was just a drone commander then it makes the list almost 90 points short.