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 Gunzhard wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:

You aren't comprehending this....

In 3rd and 4th there were ways to reliably mitigate the negative effects of synapse, in 5th you had a mono build and synapse wasn't an issue til late game. Early 6th you had deployment options and hard synapse pegs. Now you can be crippled in a turn and you aren't given anything to help patch the problems, instead you were handed more problems, sure take buckets of termagants and hormagaunts, half will pin themselves or run away while the other half actually kill themselves.

Having synapse just be fearless and IB being representive by their low Ld was good enough, to add charts and further negatives to that is extremely poor design. No other army has to worry about its unit killing itself off an objective with that amount of certainty.

Nids are weak in the first turn and late game. Right there you are looking at uphill battle games where your tactics basically involve hoping your opponent rolls poorly*

I got it loud and clear - you are totally stumped by the new synapse, because - let me guess, Tau will just snipe all of your synapse models dead before deployment. It's different and more strict, but it's not that difficult. You can take plenty of synapse, you can increase the range of synapse if you need to, you do NOT automatically fail leadership checks and then roll a 1-3 on the 'feed' chart as soon as you put your models on the table, your synapse models do not auto-die on turn 1.

Ah yes, detractors of the dex are just stupid and don't know how to play and passing Ld6 tests is super easy every turn and killing 3 to 4 MCs a turn isn't a thing. Gotcha.

"Different and more strict" more like:

 the shrouded lord wrote:

 fartherthanfar wrote:

Arbiter_Shade wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Ah dear.

Well here's the thing guys: if you're a good player anyways, then this codex is not going to be a problem for you.

If you're bad anyways, this codex isn't going to make you better. But then... Did you expect any codex to do that?

And that's gotta be the definition of Mid-tier. So. Instead of an arms race, we have a codex that is pretty much where it should be: it competes when you do.

Yeah, that is a convincing argument. "You're just bad at the game, so stop whinning." NO ONE is saying they are upset because this codex isn't top tier, we are upset because it put unreasonable restrictions on the army, is boring, bland, and unintuitive, it is STILL full of useless units that will never see play, on top of all that they nerfed somethings that were obviously SOOO powerful. I mean everyone remember the terror of Scything Talon spam? How it just ruined the game by making mediocre units into good units? How ridiculous it was to have up to 6 S8 AP 4 shots at BS 4 for 150 points? The only nerf that makes sense to me as a long time Tyranid player was to Tervigons, but they went from possibly best troop in the game to a giant bullet sponge that's only synergy with the army is that it HURTS you more than it helps. It can't shoot, it can't assault, it can get a good buff going 1/6 of the time, and it is a massive liability but we will STILL take it because it is BETTER than the other options.

That in a nut shell is the 6th Tyranid codex, there is nothing to get excited about with this army, it is a list building exercise in taking what is the LEAST crap. It will do fine in casual games if it sticks to a certain few units, outside of those units you will do poorly even at a casual level. Let that sink in, this codex has to spam its best choices to compete casually. Sadly, its best options will put it above most casual list but bellow most competitive list.

I so disagree, I can find some very decent choices in every slots, and lets not pretend there is a codex that doesnt have some crap choices, they ALL have SOME crap choices.

And we have a better internal balance than before, used to be you would always see the same list for nids:

2 flyrants (maybe a swarmlord)
2 tervigon
2 min unit of termagaunt
doom in a pod
sometimes some gargoyles/ymgarlm genestealers/Deathleaper
hive guards or maybe zoanthrope in a pod
trygon or biovore (biovore got better in this new codex !!!!)

those were the only thing we had
now I see about double the amount of decent choice in our new codex

Oh, please DO tell us.

even though Im sure your totally sarcastic. I will.

so all the ones I previously mentionned are still decents choices now(except for the doom and ymgarl which are obsolete), some less strong then before but still see some use in each of them.

Mawlocs, Trygon Prime, Dakkafex, Harpy, Crone, Shrikes, Warriors, Genestealers, Lictors, Venomthropes, Hormagaunts
Termagaunts werent good before, they merely allowed you to get a tervigon, now they are actually good.

even the raveners could find some use against certain armies.

 fartherthanfar wrote:

so all the ones I previously mentionned are still decents choices now(except for the doom and ymgarl which are obsolete), some less strong then before but still see some use in each of them.

Mawlocs, Trygon Prime, Dakkafex, Harpy, Crone, Shrikes, Warriors, Genestealers, Lictors, Venomthropes, Hormagaunts
Termagaunts werent good before, they merely allowed you to get a tervigon, now they are actually good.

even the raveners could find some use against certain armies.

Nice and specific.

I don't want to say "Raveners will never see the table", because I'm 100% sure there are people that will field them. But the reality of the unit is that pretty much anything they can do, can be done better by a different unit. Heck, even Shrikes in the same fast attack slot are almost universally better. For the same point cost and 1I, you get a synapse creature instead of a Ld6 beast.


Although I just noticed that making CC Warriors (RC/ST) now costs 5 points MORE than it used to. Thanks GW.

Lictors? Decent? I'd call Lictors the worst unit in the codex if it weren't for Pyrovores.

 fartherthanfar wrote:

 the shrouded lord wrote:

 fartherthanfar wrote:

Arbiter_Shade wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Ah dear.

Well here's the thing guys: if you're a good player anyways, then this codex is not going to be a problem for you.

If you're bad anyways, this codex isn't going to make you better. But then... Did you expect any codex to do that?

And that's gotta be the definition of Mid-tier. So. Instead of an arms race, we have a codex that is pretty much where it should be: it competes when you do.

Yeah, that is a convincing argument. "You're just bad at the game, so stop whinning." NO ONE is saying they are upset because this codex isn't top tier, we are upset because it put unreasonable restrictions on the army, is boring, bland, and unintuitive, it is STILL full of useless units that will never see play, on top of all that they nerfed somethings that were obviously SOOO powerful. I mean everyone remember the terror of Scything Talon spam? How it just ruined the game by making mediocre units into good units? How ridiculous it was to have up to 6 S8 AP 4 shots at BS 4 for 150 points? The only nerf that makes sense to me as a long time Tyranid player was to Tervigons, but they went from possibly best troop in the game to a giant bullet sponge that's only synergy with the army is that it HURTS you more than it helps. It can't shoot, it can't assault, it can get a good buff going 1/6 of the time, and it is a massive liability but we will STILL take it because it is BETTER than the other options.

That in a nut shell is the 6th Tyranid codex, there is nothing to get excited about with this army, it is a list building exercise in taking what is the LEAST crap. It will do fine in casual games if it sticks to a certain few units, outside of those units you will do poorly even at a casual level. Let that sink in, this codex has to spam its best choices to compete casually. Sadly, its best options will put it above most casual list but bellow most competitive list.

I so disagree, I can find some very decent choices in every slots, and lets not pretend there is a codex that doesnt have some crap choices, they ALL have SOME crap choices.

And we have a better internal balance than before, used to be you would always see the same list for nids:

2 flyrants (maybe a swarmlord)
2 tervigon
2 min unit of termagaunt
doom in a pod
sometimes some gargoyles/ymgarlm genestealers/Deathleaper
hive guards or maybe zoanthrope in a pod
trygon or biovore (biovore got better in this new codex !!!!)

those were the only thing we had
now I see about double the amount of decent choice in our new codex

Oh, please DO tell us.

even though Im sure your totally sarcastic. I will.

so all the ones I previously mentionned are still decents choices now(except for the doom and ymgarl which are obsolete), some less strong then before but still see some use in each of them.

Mawlocs, Trygon Prime, Dakkafex, Harpy, Crone, Shrikes, Warriors, Genestealers, Lictors, Venomthropes, Hormagaunts
Termagaunts werent good before, they merely allowed you to get a tervigon, now they are actually good.

even the raveners could find some use against certain armies.

Let's break it down unit by unit,

Flyrants: Still great, still a much better choice than a walking Tyrant. In fact, now they are universally better than a walking Tyrant.
Tervigon: Were nerfed into nothing but a solid synapse anchor that can score. They can't melee, they can't reliably buff, and they sure can't shoot. So all they really do is sit around and generate synapse, which doesn't make them bad but they aren't really good. They are just kinda there in terms of power.
Hive Guard: They lost a BS and went up in points for no reason, on either count. They are still decent enough but why did they need to be nerfed?
Zoanthropes: Never really used them before, might start using them a bit now. Overall I think they are a decent choice for elites but as I stated earlier they have a lot of competition in the elite slot still.
Tyrgons: No, these guys got worse. A lot worse, both prime and regular. The lost of Scything Talons rerolls means that they are getting a lot less hits and if they smashed that really matters. Now with that said, I am might run them once in awhile, it is just that compared to Carnifex and Exocrine they really don't bring much to the table except for synapse on the prime. But the prime is REALLY expensive just for some synapse on a decent CC MC.
Biovores: No argument here, rock on you beautiful bastards.
Mawlocs: For the life of me I can not understand peoples praise of these things. I ran them in 5th, know how they work in 5th, they didn't really change in 6th. Just like in 5th they will pop up, eat a couple of units, then get shot to pieces. Or assaulted by a semi-competant assault unit. WS3 A3 makes them kinda weak for the same reason that the Haruspex, which true story I just watched a game where a group of Conscripts CHARGED a Haruspex, delt enough wounds to win combat, and sweeping advanced the Haruspex.
Harpy/Crone: Seen them fielded multiple times, looked over the numbers, everything about them is just substandard. The Harpy has a better time of things because he has the utility to do what he was designed to do. The Crone just doesn't have the power to do what he was designed to do, hunt other fliers.
Warriors/Genestearls/Lictors/Shrieks: Really? Okay, if you think THESE are good then I call into question your judgement.
Hormagaunts: Statistically are the same, the drop in points actually makes up for the lack of rerolling ones with the extra attacks gained from the extra gaunts. Problem is they weren't to hot to begin with. They have trouble actually killing things in CC because they have no AP, don't hit hard, don't hit a lot, and are only WS3. They are best as a screen which is cheaper with Termagants.
Termagants: Exact same except one point cheaper...So I don't get where you are saying they used to be bad but are now good. You mean splitting weapons? I guess that is good...
Raveners: My favorite unit in the codex. They are just...sad...They are okay against some armies, throw away against some, just to expensive for what they do. Warriors have more potential because they can take BS/LW.

Ok, let's look at synapse for a moment.

Only HQ unit without it is the Hive Guard, but I think you auto include them with a Hive Tyrant so that is covered. The Deathleaper is without. Everyone else is either synapse or fearless and thus auto pass their synapse check.

Troops have the warriors are synapse but all others are without and not fearless. That makes sense in the lore. BTW, Ripper swarms are fearless,but I don't think they will ever see table.

Elites have Zoantropes as synapse and Haruspex are fearless but all others are without.

Fast has Shrikes as synapse, Harpy, Crone, and spore mines are fearless. That means Ravener, Red Terror, and gargoyles are without.

Heavy support everything is fearless or synapse except Biovores. Note: Trygon Prime is a synapse.

19 out of 33 are immune to synapse rules out right, never testing, 58% of the army never tests. Almost all the HQ and Heavy are free from testing. The only weak link is Gargoyles and the elites. IMHO that is not a game breaker. So I really need to baby sit my terms and gargoyles. The rest need to be next or in my big guys. I am not as worried now. My vemontrope is without, but I was going to have him walk behind my MCs with synapse anyway. My gargoyles will need to rush with my Harpies and have to have a Flyrant to keep things moving. My Biovores need someone, so can I just buy a cheap unit of warriors and have them hang out with them at an objective that I place at the back field.

Just saying, but was later told fearless is no help with the IB check, oh well.

Fearless does not make you automatically pass Instinctive Behaviour, only morale and pinning checks.

yes I'm loving it. I should email this to my buddy, he'll practically GIVE me his 'Nids!

Really though, who cares if the codex sucks? Name one codex that doesn't suck in some way. Tau are sucky because they're too easy, Space Marines suck because GW loves them, Dark Eldar suck because some unit got nerfed way back in the day, Eldar suck because, well see the above picture, I could go on and on.

Point is serious players, and by that I mean the guys with 3 or 4 armies and a dedicated games table strewn with homemade terrain, will take their new codex in stride, home rule the stuff that needs it and laugh at the haters on the forums who are still desperately trying to convince themselves that GW will be around in 5 years. Which, I can't bloody wait for that because then I'll buy ALL your models for the low low cost of whatever it takes to stem your tears. Trust me.

I just reread the rule, beginning of your turn you take a leadership test. Fearless always pass morale rolls, so leadership test are not covered?

Arbiter_Shade wrote:
NO ONE is saying they are upset because this codex isn't top tier, we are upset because it put unreasonable restrictions on the army, is boring, bland, and unintuitive, it is STILL full of useless units that will never see play, on top of all that they nerfed somethings that were obviously SOOO powerful. I mean everyone remember the terror of Scything Talon spam? How it just ruined the game by making mediocre units into good units? How ridiculous it was to have up to 6 S8 AP 4 shots at BS 4 for 150 points? The only nerf that makes sense to me as a long time Tyranid player was to Tervigons, but they went from possibly best troop in the game to a giant bullet sponge that's only synergy with the army is that it HURTS you more than it helps. It can't shoot, it can't assault, it can get a good buff going 1/6 of the time, and it is a massive liability but we will STILL take it because it is BETTER than the other options.

That in a nut shell is the 6th Tyranid codex, there is nothing to get excited about with this army, it is a list building exercise in taking what is the LEAST crap. It will do fine in casual games if it sticks to a certain few units, outside of those units you will do poorly even at a casual level. Let that sink in, this codex has to spam its best choices to compete casually. Sadly, its best options will put it above most casual list but bellow most competitive list.

The fact that no one seems to get that and, worse, can only respond with various takes on "But the prices went down", "Just wait a week/month/year/until the heat-death of the universe!", "So it's not a WAAC instant-win button!" and the always meaningless "Use tactics!" (or even the utterly mystifying "You're just angry about Genestealer Cults"... I mean... Red Herring much?) just shows a consistent lack of critical thinking applied to this book and inability to see the bad that's there.

darkcloak wrote:
Really though, who cares if the codex sucks?

I'm going to with "A lot of people care".

darkcloak wrote:
Name one codex that doesn't suck in some way.

No really... that's your attempt an argument? "Everything is somehow sucky!". Ever heard of the "golden mean" fallacy?

 sgtpjbarker wrote:
I just reread the rule, beginning of your turn you take a leadership test. Fearless always pass morale rolls, so leadership test are not covered?

All Morale Tests are Leadership Tests. Not all Leadership Tests are Morale Tests.

 sgtpjbarker wrote:
I just reread the rule, beginning of your turn you take a leadership test. Fearless always pass morale rolls, so leadership test are not covered?

If IB worked this way it would be a complete non-issue...but no, it does not. Look at it this way, GW has some terrible writers but why on earth would they list a fearless unit with IB: Feed, such as the Haruspex. They are immune to moral rolls, but not to IB.

Which just made me realize that the game I just watched, the Haruspex should not have been swept by the Conscripts...ohh well, the IG player still worked over the synapse creatures and the game was over anyways.

@Gunzhard For the last 10 pages you've been the only one who keeps mentioning how Tyranids will stack up against Tau. Meanwhile everyone else has calmly tried to explain that it's not the power level of the Codex they are not happy with. It's the copy/paste job from an already lazy 5th edition Codex, the adding of about 5% new Artwork and fluff, not fixing a single broken unit thus leaving the internal balance outside of Heavy Support an absolute mess, sheer frustration at things that we can't comprehend like Rippers going up in price and Pyrovores staying terrible, the removal.. I repeat the removal of units from the previous Codex... the day one DLC in the shape of Data Slates and the frustration that we now have to live with this dex for another 3-5 years after we just endured the last one.

To be perfectly honest the Codex does have viable builds and has as much chance against Tau/Eldar asmost other armies but it's just the complete lack of effort that appears to have been put into this book that boggles the mind and is why so many of us are "whining".

This is at no one in particular but from what I can tell a lot of the people who dislike the Codex are Tyranid players who started in 2nd/3rd/4th and a lot of the "White Knights" are people who I presume with how often they're quoting rules and point values wrong and the list they used to take are:
A: People who started nids in 5th with the 5th Codex and thus did not endure the pain of the 4th to 5th transition like so many of us.
B: People who started nids in 6th with 5th Codex.
C: People who never played nids and just like a good argument.

 Zande4 wrote:
@Gunzhard For the last 10 pages you've been the only one who keeps mentioning how Tyranids will stack up against Tau. Meanwhile everyone else has calmly tried to explain that it's not the power level of the Codex they are not happy with. It's the copy/paste job from an already lazy 5th edition Codex, the adding of about 5% new Artwork and fluff, not fixing a single broken unit thus leaving the internal balance outside of Heavy Support an absolute mess, sheer frustration at things that we can't comprehend like Rippers going up in price and Pyrovores staying terrible, the removal.. I repeat the removal of units from the previous Codex... the day one DLC in the shape of Data Slates and the frustration that we now have to live with this dex for another 3-5 years after we just endured the last one.

To be perfectly honest the Codex does have viable builds and has as much chance against Tau/Eldar asmost other armies but it's just the complete lack of effort that appears to have been put into this book that boggles the mind and is why so many of us are "whining".

This is at no one in particular but from what I can tell a lot of the people who dislike the Codex are Tyranid players who started in 2nd/3rd/4th and a lot of the "White Knights" are people who I presume with how often they're quoting rules and point values wrong and the list they used to take are:
A: People who started nids in 5th with the 5th Codex and thus did not endure the pain of the 4th to 5th transition like so many of us.
B: People who started nids in 6th with 5th Codex.
C: People who never played nids and just like a good argument.

I can agree with this. NONE of my complaints have been about if I can win games with the new book.

its about just how plain bad the book is, and how if feels so disappointing, especially with the such high expectations coming on the heels of the last several books (i.e. tons of options, cool builds, lots of flexibility etc.).

I have games under my belt now, and have seen even more, and can say, yes, we can win games with the book. I can also say, its a disappointing book, with needless nerfs (I find the scything talon nerf, to be the most damaging, especially with out access to allies other ways to get rerolls) and lackluster options.

Sure, there are many strong units, and things that work. But it feels like they are either auto-include (flyrants) or just not thought out well (tyrnaid prime????)..

I also find the lack of an eternal warrior upgrade option or invul saves to be just brutal when fighting against opponents in their point classes (lysander, calgar, dragio, big demons, etc.) - yes, I know, I can hit them with huge squads of gants.
thats not the point. I don't want to have the swarm lord dodge combat against a worthy adversary - I want him to engage him in an epic battle of "forging a narrative" proportions!!!
And without a better invul save or eternal warrior ...tragically its just ugly (not to mention the psy grenades out there thanks to the inq dex...yeah, thanks for making nids psykers guys).

Part of the problem is that nid players felt marginalized in the last book, then with some of the recent books being so good - expectations were high.
And the book fails to deliver....even close.

The book is not bad....its just not good. And that my friends, is bad.

Arbiter_Shade wrote:

 sgtpjbarker wrote:
I just reread the rule, beginning of your turn you take a leadership test. Fearless always pass morale rolls, so leadership test are not covered?

If IB worked this way it would be a complete non-issue...but no, it does not. Look at it this way, GW has some terrible writers but why on earth would they list a fearless unit with IB: Feed, such as the Haruspex. They are immune to moral rolls, but not to IB.

Which just made me realize that the game I just watched, the Haruspex should not have been swept by the Conscripts...ohh well, the IG player still worked over the synapse creatures and the game was over anyways.

You are right. I know GW will not FAQ it to read. Fearless units auto pass IB. It is just terrible writing on their part. I wonder if they made the same mistake I did and think fearless is worth something here?

Bummer, synapse is done wrong. So we have our O&G in 40k and their ain't even Orks.

 Zande4 wrote:
@Gunzhard For the last 10 pages you've been the only one who keeps mentioning how Tyranids will stack up against Tau. Meanwhile everyone else has calmly tried to explain that it's not the power level of the Codex they are not happy with. It's the copy/paste job from an already lazy 5th edition Codex, the adding of about 5% new Artwork and fluff, not fixing a single broken unit thus leaving the internal balance outside of Heavy Support an absolute mess, sheer frustration at things that we can't comprehend like Rippers going up in price and Pyrovores staying terrible, the removal.. I repeat the removal of units from the previous Codex... the day one DLC in the shape of Data Slates and the frustration that we now have to live with this dex for another 3-5 years after we just endured the last one.

To be perfectly honest the Codex does have viable builds and has as much chance against Tau/Eldar asmost other armies but it's just the complete lack of effort that appears to have been put into this book that boggles the mind and is why so many of us are "whining".

This is at no one in particular but from what I can tell a lot of the people who dislike the Codex are Tyranid players who started in 2nd/3rd/4th and a lot of the "White Knights" are people who I presume with how often they're quoting rules and point values wrong and the list they used to take are:
A: People who started nids in 5th with the 5th Codex and thus did not endure the pain of the 4th to 5th transition like so many of us.
B: People who started nids in 6th with 5th Codex.
C: People who never played nids and just like a good argument.

I'm sorry but that's a load... "calmly tried to explain" - hah most of this thread is a frantic panic attack. Your response seems measured and calm, but that's not the general temperature of this thread and the Tau/Eldar comparison dominated the early part of this thread as well. And as much as those resolved to hate this book dislike hearing it - it IS still very early to judge.

As for the copy/paste job - if you are talking fluff, sadly this has happened with every codex to varying degrees and personally I think if they are gonna just rehash this stuff they should make the books cheaper. If you are talking about rules, this is where things kind of get nonsensical... some of the same people complaining that their old (tervigon-spam) list is nerfed, are also upset the book is not totally different. You have your reason for "whining", heck I don't even disagree, but a large percentage of this thread, and the several other Sky-Is-Falling nid-codex threads are full of total nonsense.

Personally with ALL of the newer codex I truly hate the organization and this one is particular bad in that regard. You have to flip back to several different sections just to generate one unit.

 Gunzhard wrote:
I'm sorry but that's a load... "calmly tried to explain" - hah most of this thread is a frantic panic attack.

Actually most of this thread has been calm analysis of the problems with this Tyranid Codex (and ridicule of those who lack basic reading comprehension skills, but we've gotto have our fun somewhere! ). The fact that you continue to both ignore that and insult everyone every time you post reflects more on you than it does on the thread's other participants.

 Carnage43 wrote:
Noone is saying that the 5th edition book was a pinnacle of awesomeness, just that it was better than what we have now.

We all hated the 5th edition book for all the reasons we hate the 6th edition one....bland, restrictive and boiled down to 4-6 useful units while the rest were laughably bad. Now, it's the exact same book....but without the 4-6 useful units, now it's 3, winged tyrants, venomthropes and biovores, the rest is laughably bad in the grander scheme.

How is a Dakkafex laughably bad?

 Gunzhard wrote:

I got it loud and clear - you are totally stumped by the new synapse, because - let me guess, Tau will just snipe all of your synapse models dead before deployment. It's different and more strict, but it's not that difficult. You can take plenty of synapse, you can increase the range of synapse if you need to, you do NOT automatically fail leadership checks and then roll a 1-3 on the 'feed' chart as soon as you put your models on the table, your synapse models do not auto-die on turn 1.

hehe. so true. So true.

As usually happens, I now feel compelled to borrow some Tyranids and do 20 games with it to unlock the puzzle. First Ill get monkey stomped. And ill tweak it. Then I'll tie. and I'll tweak it some more. Then I'll win. Because the codex isn't dictating that FOR ME. I'm quite sue of it. I don't see in the Tyranids the kind of fail that Necrons were for so long for example. I mean you talk about a Codex that just got FORGOTTEN! That and the old Dark Eldar codex are the only codex's I ever felt got left behind utterly, and even then Dark Eldar had a good build you could use all the way up to its resurrection. And even despite that Necron codex, I was able to make it about an inch from the third round of Ard Boyz with necrons (that one inch haunts me...Lol).

This is no necrons situation folks. And I am thinking the Dataslates may make some Tyranid players happy (as unfair as i do indeed find that statement to be, it's probably also true)

 Jancoran wrote:

 Gunzhard wrote:

I got it loud and clear - you are totally stumped by the new synapse, because - let me guess, Tau will just snipe all of your synapse models dead before deployment. It's different and more strict, but it's not that difficult. You can take plenty of synapse, you can increase the range of synapse if you need to, you do NOT automatically fail leadership checks and then roll a 1-3 on the 'feed' chart as soon as you put your models on the table, your synapse models do not auto-die on turn 1.

hehe. so true. So true.

As usually happens, I now feel compelled to borrow some Tyranids and do 20 games with it to unlock the puzzle. First Ill get monkey stomped. And ill tweak it. Then I'll tie. and I'll tweak it some more. Then I'll win. Because the codex isn't dictating that FOR ME. I'm quite sue of it. I don't see in the Tyranids the kind of fail that Necrons were for so long for example. I mean you talk about a Codex that just got FORGOTTEN! That and the old Dark Eldar codex are the only codex's I ever felt got left behind utterly, and even then Dark Eldar had a good build you could use all the way up to its resurrection. And even despite that Necron codex, I was able to make it about an inch from the third round of Ard Boyz with necrons (that one inch haunts me...Lol).

This is no necrons situation folks. And I am thinking the Dataslates may make some Tyranid players happy (as unfair as i do indeed find that statement to be, it's probably also true)

Necron Fail, they only failed in 5th due to the renovation of the glance mechanic, That's only when it started hurting them.

4 years of purgatory. Tyranids are nothing like that.

The gist of why people are pissed.
I have payed over 500 dollars on tyranids. This SHOULD include the ability to use them in a competition. GW has pretty much said (with the "dataslates") you will need to pay extra for.

Arbiter_Shade wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Ah dear.

Well here's the thing guys: if you're a good player anyways, then this codex is not going to be a problem for you.

If you're bad anyways, this codex isn't going to make you better. But then... Did you expect any codex to do that?

And that's gotta be the definition of Mid-tier. So. Instead of an arms race, we have a codex that is pretty much where it should be: it competes when you do.

Yeah, that is a convincing argument. "You're just bad at the game, so stop whinning." NO ONE is saying they are upset because this codex isn't top tier, we are upset because it put unreasonable restrictions on the army, is boring, bland, and unintuitive, it is STILL full of useless units that will never see play, on top of all that they nerfed somethings that were obviously SOOO powerful. I mean everyone remember the terror of Scything Talon spam? How it just ruined the game by making mediocre units into good units? How ridiculous it was to have up to 6 S8 AP 4 shots at BS 4 for 150 points? The only nerf that makes sense to me as a long time Tyranid player was to Tervigons, but they went from possibly best troop in the game to a giant bullet sponge that's only synergy with the army is that it HURTS you more than it helps. It can't shoot, it can't assault, it can get a good buff going 1/6 of the time, and it is a massive liability but we will STILL take it because it is BETTER than the other options.

That in a nut shell is the 6th Tyranid codex, there is nothing to get excited about with this army, it is a list building exercise in taking what is the LEAST crap. It will do fine in casual games if it sticks to a certain few units, outside of those units you will do poorly even at a casual level. Let that sink in, this codex has to spam its best choices to compete casually. Sadly, its best options will put it above most casual list but bellow most competitive list.

Isn't everybody getting a bit bored of repeating the same points again and again? This thread should really be put out of its misery.

I confess, we gave up on nids for six months after 6th dropped, we got so depressed about loving our beloved genestealers. But life - or rather, interplanetary predation - goes on. Personally I'd rather see people use the codex, slag off the crap units after having tried them, than spend the next six months arguing over text in a book.

 the shrouded lord wrote:
The gist of why people are pissed.
I have payed over 500 dollars on tyranids. This SHOULD include the ability to use them in a competition. GW has pretty much said (with the "dataslates") you will need to pay extra for.

People are using the new Nids in tournaments. They do have the ability, but they will struggle against some setups for sure. The new codex has problems, so the Hive Mind have been working to overcome them. Naturally these people wish the codex were better, but not everyones jumping ship in competative play.

 Gunzhard wrote:


Personally with ALL of the newer codex I truly hate the organization and this one is particular bad in that regard. You have to flip back to several different sections just to generate one unit.

Now this I can agree with, I absolutely hate the new layout in the 6th edition Codices it's a fail of epic proportions..

Carnage43 thanks for breaking that down it isn't as good as I though unless your going against an AV 13-15. I have seen some people use the AV 15 Buildings. It would still be good there and also vs the super high Toughness Eldar you see now and then. It would also insta kill harpies/crowns so it still will have it uses.

Also vs vehicles they get no deny the witch which is another plus.

I guess it goes to show always math hammer.

Vehicles ar eunits, so get deny the witch.

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

Arbiter_Shade wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
Ah dear.

Well here's the thing guys: if you're a good player anyways, then this codex is not going to be a problem for you.

If you're bad anyways, this codex isn't going to make you better. But then... Did you expect any codex to do that?

And that's gotta be the definition of Mid-tier. So. Instead of an arms race, we have a codex that is pretty much where it should be: it competes when you do.

Yeah, that is a convincing argument. "You're just bad at the game, so stop whinning." NO ONE is saying they are upset because this codex isn't top tier, we are upset because it put unreasonable restrictions on the army, is boring, bland, and unintuitive, it is STILL full of useless units that will never see play, on top of all that they nerfed somethings that were obviously SOOO powerful. I mean everyone remember the terror of Scything Talon spam? How it just ruined the game by making mediocre units into good units? How ridiculous it was to have up to 6 S8 AP 4 shots at BS 4 for 150 points? The only nerf that makes sense to me as a long time Tyranid player was to Tervigons, but they went from possibly best troop in the game to a giant bullet sponge that's only synergy with the army is that it HURTS you more than it helps. It can't shoot, it can't assault, it can get a good buff going 1/6 of the time, and it is a massive liability but we will STILL take it because it is BETTER than the other options.

That in a nut shell is the 6th Tyranid codex, there is nothing to get excited about with this army, it is a list building exercise in taking what is the LEAST crap. It will do fine in casual games if it sticks to a certain few units, outside of those units you will do poorly even at a casual level. Let that sink in, this codex has to spam its best choices to compete casually. Sadly, its best options will put it above most casual list but bellow most competitive list.

Isn't everybody getting a bit bored of repeating the same points again and again? This thread should really be put out of its misery.

I confess, we gave up on nids for six months after 6th dropped, we got so depressed about loving our beloved genestealers. But life - or rather, interplanetary predation - goes on. Personally I'd rather see people use the codex, slag off the crap units after having tried them, than spend the next six months arguing over text in a book.

I am getting tired of repeating myself, giving valid complaints about this book to have people just shrug them off and counter with a non sequitur. I am not upset at the units we lost, I am upset at the units that continue to be bad and that there are so many of them in the book and absolutely no attempt was made to fix them. I didn't like the 5th codex at all because it was Codex: Tervigon, I feel this new codex is just Codex: Flyrant. It is like the CSM book in that it relies on a crutch to hobble along for a slightly competitive build.

I haven't stopped playing my Tyranids from 3rd up to 6th now and I have no intention of doing so, despite having five other armies. Tyranids are my first love in this game, I will play them through thick and thin, but it is frustrating to see people defending this book then showing that the have obviously not read it by quoting stats that don't exist, making mistakes about very simple rules, and just over exaggerating how useful some units are. I had someone argue with me about Lictors and how viable they are. Sorry but they are elites, a competitive slow full of decent options, that can't even do what they set out to do. They aren't very good assassins and their pheromone trail isn't really useful in this new codex considering most things lost the ability to deep strike. The codex is filled with units that can't even do effectively what they were designed to do, like the Hive Crone. It was supposed to be our anti-flyer unit and it is extremely lack luster in that regard because it is more than likely only going to take off two hull points in a single turn and it will NOT survive the return fire.

bodazoka wrote:

 Carnage43 wrote:
Noone is saying that the 5th edition book was a pinnacle of awesomeness, just that it was better than what we have now.

We all hated the 5th edition book for all the reasons we hate the 6th edition one....bland, restrictive and boiled down to 4-6 useful units while the rest were laughably bad. Now, it's the exact same book....but without the 4-6 useful units, now it's 3, winged tyrants, venomthropes and biovores, the rest is laughably bad in the grander scheme.

How is a Dakkafex laughably bad?

Because it's still not good. People are stuck on the "It's 40 points CHEAPER! So it MUST be good now!" mind set. The thing is, it was AWFUL in 5th edition, and the 40 point decrease still doesn't bring it into line with other good monstrous creatures.

It's main issues is that it tries to be a swiss army knife unit, and all the roles it tries to fill can be done better by other units.

Anti-Infantry? 19 Devourer gaunts or 3 biovores will do it better. Gaunts will do it at the same range, and biovores will do it at twice the range and without LoS.
Anti-vehicle? Hive Guard will do this better, as would a Crone I imagine. The loss of the spore pod really kills them in this role, as having to walk across the board and shoot at front armor really stings.
Melee? 3 WS3 attacks with no rerolls, even at S9 AP2, is impressing no one. Hell, Assault Centurions can beat these guys in combat point for point, and they are not very good. The only thing these guys shine against in melee is T4 multi-wound creatures (which are basically extinct) and dreadnoughts (also extinct). 80% of the book is better in melee than these guys.
Deathstar/tough unit? 38+ points per T6 wound is not very good on T6 3+ save with no invul. A riptide is 40 points per wound, but gets a 2+/5++, Canotpyk Spiders are 25 for T6 3+, a base dreadknight is 32.5 for 2+/5++. Carnifexes are pretty much the least survivable monstrous creatures in the game point for point.
Anti-air? Leave that to your winged tyrants and/or crone

It's a swiss army knife unit that tries to be good at several things, but ends up second rate at all of them. It's tactical squad syndrome all over again. Some people like units like this, but personally, I think they are awful. I much prefer a unit that is the unrivaled best at it's role, with anything else it can do being gravy. To add insult to injury, it's in the highly contested heavy support slot, so taking fexes means less biovores/exocrines/whatevers.

Carnage, I have to agree about the Carnifex. I had been thinking about it a lot lately. The idea of running 3 dakkafex sounds great on paper, until you realize it's generally 25% of your points or more in one unit. Sure, they will melt pretty much whatever they shoot at, but because they can only shoot one unit, will take pretty much every round of shooting to make up their points. Not to mention their range isn't that great given how slow they are. They just seem like a total red herring unit.

I think GW just severely over-estimates how good "flexible" units are. Because flexible units are almost always going to be better off hyper-specializing, to not waste potential. Especially in small squads with expensive models.

 Carnage43 wrote:

Anti-Infantry? 19 Devourer gaunts or 3 biovores will do it better. Gaunts will do it at the same range, and biovores will do it at twice the range and without LoS.

19 guants will die to a stiff breeze

 Carnage43 wrote:
Anti-vehicle? Hive Guard will do this better, as would a Crone I imagine. The loss of the spore pod really kills them in this role, as having to walk across the board and shoot at front armor really stings.

Comparing typical number of glances+pens, a single dakkafex will do much better than Hive Guard against AV10/11, and about the same VS AV12. The indirect fire and ignoring cover is useful, but then again so is volume of fire and re-rolls to hit for getting snapshots when needed.

Of course there's nothing to stop you taking both units, and really the decision comes down to the rest of your list and if Elite or HS slots are more valuable. Also don't forget Onslaught can help to close the gap.

 Carnage43 wrote:
Melee? 3 WS3 attacks with no rerolls, even at S9 AP2, is impressing no one. Hell, Assault Centurions can beat these guys in combat point for point, and they are not very good. The only thing these guys shine against in melee is T4 multi-wound creatures (which are basically extinct) and dreadnoughts (also extinct). 80% of the book is better in melee than these guys.

This is a rather poor comparison:
1) Centurions are a very specialised unit equipped with relatively rare I4 AP2 weapons perfectly designed to kill MC's in melee. Would you tell people not to take Flyrants because Quad-guns exist? I think that match-up is far more likely to happen too.
2) How hard can it be to avoid melee with a Slow and Purposeful unit anyway, especially when your MC can take Fleet?
3) You skipped over the automatically-hitting bonus HoW attacks, which on a S9 unit can be pretty significant.
4) You didn't finish your sentence:
"The only thing these guys shine against in melee is T4 multi-wound creatures (which are basically extinct) and dreadnoughts (also extinct) AND ALSO ANY VEHICLE EVER"

Statisically, 2 Fexes with no upgrades are likely to wreck or explode virtually anything AV13 or below in one round of combat. Throw on Adrenal Glands and they're likely to take out AV14 in one round too.

Something else interesting to note is that Fexes with Frag Spines will now always get to attack before any powerfists or other Unwieldy weapons. This can make a huge difference in their survivability against infantry.

 Carnage43 wrote:
Deathstar/tough unit? 38+ points per T6 wound is not very good on T6 3+ save with no invul. A riptide is 40 points per wound, but gets a 2+/5++, Canotpyk Spiders are 25 for T6 3+, a base dreadknight is 32.5 for 2+/5++. Carnifexes are pretty much the least survivable monstrous creatures in the game point for point.

By throwing on Shrouded or FNP onto one them, the whole unit benefits. This can help squeeze the most from Venomthropes or Catalyst. It's also pretty easy to pull off wound allocation shenanigans by shuffling position, letting them stay around longer.

The Riptides and Dreadknight comparisons perplex me, as they're not in the Tyranid codex and therefore aren't an alternative option to Carnifexes. Trygons and T-fexes would have been a better comparison, but of course the number of points per wound isn't the only factor in picking a unit or you'd be telling us to spam Mawlocs.

 Carnage43 wrote:
Anti-air? Leave that to your winged tyrants and/or crone

What if I don't want to buy a Crone, and only own one Flyrant? Relying on FMCs generally means building a list around several of them for redundancy, and results in a boring mono-build style a la the old Tervigon list. Plus I bet there's more of us out there with multiple Fexes than multiple Crones.

It's all very well saying you want specialised units to perfectly counter everything that can be thrown at you, but in reality that's hardly practical. Opponents do something unexpected, crucial dice rolls go the wrong way, key units can get caught out of place or lost at a bad time, and plans unravel. Sometimes it is better to have a few generalist units that can switch role when needed. Carnifexes can fill a gap when your Crone gets Quad-gunned to death on arrival, or your Flyrant fails that key grounding test. I don't get how you can say a unit is 'awful' just because it isn't the mathematically optimal choice for a specific situation.

A Carnifex isn't perfect for most roles, but it's good at a lot of them. And in the codex that brought us the Pyrovore, Genestealers and Rippers, I think that's great.