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2014/02/17 17:24:24
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Battle Report p.49)
Naw wrote: I have noticed from several battle reports that flyrants are always played aggressively and usually end up giving both FB and StW. They are easy targets being all alone in the front.
I agree with this assessment. I do not think they are nearly as good now with the loss of Biomancy but people still keep playing them like they are unstoppable. I wouldn't take more than one.
^ Yep. Running them with HVC and headhunting with the Reaper or LW/BS combo has kept my Tyrants alive and kicking ass for many games now. Vector striking vehicles, pegging tanks and instakilling crisis suits until you're able to assault a high value target/hide in a blob is a lot of fun.
Naw wrote: I have noticed from several battle reports that flyrants are always played aggressively and usually end up giving both FB and StW. They are easy targets being all alone in the front.
I agree with this assessment. I do not think they are nearly as good now with the loss of Biomancy but people still keep playing them like they are unstoppable. I wouldn't take more than one.
If they take a full turn of shooting to kill both, you're doing okay tho, try and ensure you GET first blood with em, use whatever LOS you can to help them survive, your enemy is gonna WANT to kill them, he's scared of them, use that to your advantage.
2014/02/17 18:28:50
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Battle Report p.49)
So how are you guys rolling your psychic powers out?
I personally have been rollings them in the following order.
1. Zoanthropes
2. Tervigons
3. Tyrants
I figured that the Zoanthrope benefitted the least from the bulk of the powers and would therefore be more likely to want to take dominion...so I should look into rolling him first and take dominion as necessary...this prevents me from being stuck with a power that he's not suited for in case I've already gotten dominion with my other psykers.
The Tervigon was next for being the next step up on the totem pole, less likely than a zoey to take the primaris, but still might do so for it's general purpose of being a synapse placeholder.
Tyrants are of course last because because they benefit the most from each of the powers and therefore would want to trade for dominion less than the others. But still have the option to in case your other psykers got great powers and you're feeling a little synapse light for running across an open gap.
So, what order do you tend to line up your psykers when picking their powers?
When I started I was doing it completely the other way around...Tyrants first...and I've found that my tyrants are maximized much better this way.
To be fair, this was my opponent's first game against the new bugs. I'm not sure he fully digested the info I told him with regards to the new mawlocs. Either that or he just plain forgot.
Stormbreed wrote: Great job JY2, hopefully I have the same success at Dark Star coming up early March.
Good luck!
I think Tyranids are shaping up to be an army that can finish above-average in a large tourney, but will struggle to win them due to the number of Tau and Eldar players you usually find at the top. On the bright side, I think we match up slightly better against Eldar than we do against Tau and it is looking like Eldar is dominating Tau as the top army currently.
Naw wrote: I have noticed from several battle reports that flyrants are always played aggressively and usually end up giving both FB and StW. They are easy targets being all alone in the front.
I agree with this assessment. I do not think they are nearly as good now with the loss of Biomancy but people still keep playing them like they are unstoppable. I wouldn't take more than one.
If they take a full turn of shooting to kill both, you're doing okay tho, try and ensure you GET first blood with em, use whatever LOS you can to help them survive, your enemy is gonna WANT to kill them, he's scared of them, use that to your advantage.
Going for FB typically means you are sticking them right out there in the danger zone. I don't think it is always worth it.
jy2 wrote: I think Tyranids are shaping up to be an army that can finish above-average in a large tourney, but will struggle to win them due to the number of Tau and Eldar players you usually find at the top. On the bright side, I think we match up slightly better against Eldar than we do against Tau and it is looking like Eldar is dominating Tau as the top army currently.
As an avid Eldar and Tyranid player I can say two things in particular.
1. My Eldar never has a problem defeating Tau or Taudar...it's barely a challenge.
2. Most Eldar lists can't hande a semi-horde or better army...we don't have enough shots.
(Sure, Eldar has some ignores cover, but shooting that at termagants is a complete waste, and Crones are much better against us than against Tau, the Hunter can't kill a Crone in one go unless we can get it to faceplant into the rocks.
I played Tau twice this weekend. He brought a list that was a hard counter to the list I ran game one (Cfexes) so I requested a rematch against a list I had some success with against Tau.
His List
Spoiler:
Buffmander Farsight Commander with 4 deny the witch rolls
2 Riptides (one had rerolls on Nova charges, and Skyfire)
1 Crises Suite with 2 Flamers - Reserves 3 Missle Suites With about 5 Marker drones (Target Locks). 20 Kroot (Sniper rifles, 2 Kroot Hound) - possibly other upgrades 10 Kroot (Sniper rifles) 10 Kroot (Sniper rifles)
3 Misslesides (Target Locks) 3 Sniper Drones with a Marksman. Sky-Ray Sky-Ray
My Game 1 list:
Spoiler:
Flyrant (Wings, 2 TL-devourer, Hive Commander) Tyranid Prime (BS + LW, Scything Talons) - My Warlord
2 Biovores 3 CFexes (2 had 2 TL Devouers, 1 Was Scytal only as a wound bank, all had adrenals) 1 Exocrine
Bastion
Game One: The Scouring, Dawn of War.
Spoiler:
My Turn 1: I chose to go 2nd , but then stole the Initiative. Unfortunately, I didn't roll Onslaught, and so was unable to do much besides kill 4 Kroot, and make him GTG with a couple units which was reversed by his warlord trait. I advanced in a very careful way. My Flyrant stayed out of LOS, and everything else stayed in my Shrouded bubble. My front CFex (with the Sytals) had 2+ cover, and the rest of the fexes had 3+. I joined my Prime to My Exocrine to tank wounds if needed, and moved them so that LOS was blocked from his broadsides. His Turn 1: He shot everything at the Cfexes and killed them outright before they had fired a shot. 465 points of waste. My Turn 2: My Tgaunts came in, and between them and the biovores they dropped the 20 man Kroot unit down to 4. My Exocrine Focused fire on his Buffmander which was joined to his Broadsides, and out of Cover. He passed all of His LOS's, and Passed all of his 4+ Cover Saves. I moved up my HGaunts to put them right in his face for next turn. I also advanced my Flyrant on one flank, and shot at side armor on one Skyray. 10 Hits 0 Glances. His Turn 2: He took some shots at the Exocrine, but only ended up with 2 wounds. He killed 1/2 of the Tgaunts, and they failed their leadership, and ran. He Killed my Zoey that was moving up that side to provide the Gaunts with Synapse. My Turn 3: I assaulted a Riptide with my poisoned HGaunts, and used that unit to slingshot my Prime into combat with the Riptide. My other HGaunts wiped out a 10 man squad of Kroot. My Exocrine went after the Broadsides again, and killed one, but my Flyrant put 11 wounds on the rest, and they made their saves. His Turn 3: He shot my flyrant out of the air with his Skyrays, and then finished it off. He killed 17 of my 20 normal HGaunts. He shot everything else at my Exocrine, and barely managed to Kill it. I was ready to concede, but we played out the assault phase to see if my prime plus 16 Poison HGaunts could end a Riptide. They did a pile of wounds, but he only failed one save. Meanwhile he killed 2 Gaunts, so Technically he even won combat just to add a little salt to my wounds. I conceded. I would have been tabled on Turn 4. (All I had left was 6 Devil Gaunts, 1 Zthrope, 1 Vthrope, and 2 Biovores, Plus 14 Poison HGaunts with a prime. Meanwhile he lost about 35 Kroot, 1 Markerlight, and 1 Broadside. ) Tau Win: 7 - 0
My Turn 1: I deployed 1st. There were tons of Ruins on the board, but only 1 of them was LOS blocking (same terrain as game 1). So I ended up with my Genesteelers, and Warriors in normal ruins but visible. He Deployed in one corner on multi-level terrain to make it difficult for my Mawlocs, and outflankers. In Movement, I advanced my Steelers, and moved around the bastion a bit to get out of LOS with everything I could (not warriors or Steelers). His Turn 1: He killed everything he could see Nova charged ordinance took out the Warriors. The Steelers died to massed fire. My HGaunts survived because they were in the far corner, and not really in range. My Turn 2: 2 Mawlocs came in (I rolled 2, and rerolled a 1). The first scattered, and hit nothing, the 2nd took out 2 Suites plus 2-3 marker lights. One of my TGaunts came in on his corner, but only really had LOS + Range on a Riptide 2 Wounds. The other Squad came in on the far side of the board. I advanced my Flyrants, and shot up his Broadsides (1 Dead, 1 with 1 Wound). His Turn 2: Only his flamer suite came in and barbequed 8 Gaunts. He shot everything into my Flyrants. One took 3 wounds but stayed airborne. The other took 1 Wound, and failed Grounding (I passed 7 of 8 grounding). He charged my grounded Flyrant with a Riptide, and did 2 more wounds, while my Flyrant only did 1 wound which he saved on his invul. My Turn 3: My last Mawloc deep struck on the remaining suites but scattered (11 inches) and misshaped off the board into ongoing reserves. My TGaunts, HGaunts, and Zoey from the far side ran. My Tgaunts on the near side shot into the Broadsides, and put a wound on one (2 left with 1 a piece). Then they assaulted and did nothing. My 1 Wound flyrant dropped to the ground and shot at his Suites squad, and killed his Commander with the Deny the Witch upgrade. 1 Mawloc charged a Skyray and killed it. The other charged the Suites squad, and my flyrant failed his 7" charge on that same squad. My Mawloc killed a drone in CC. Then that squad hit and ran. Argh! I hate Buffmander. My Flyrant did 1 Wound to the Riptide, but took no wounds, and the Riptide passed leadership. His Turn 3: His Kroot all came in. The large squad arrived in the same corner as all of the action, and the 2 small squads arrive in the far corner where I had my objective. He Killed my unengaged Flyrant with his suites + Snipers. And Killed one Mawloc. In Assault, my TGaunts were now out of Synapse, and he made all of his saves, while killing 2 of them, so they ran. My Flyrant put one wound on his riptide, and it ran, and I overtook it and killed it. He consolidated toward the Buffmander squad. My Turn 4: I burrowed one Mawloc, and brought in the other on top of a squad of Kroot by my Objective. I reversed course on my Zoey, and HGaunts to go kill the Kroot, and My wrong side of the board TGaunts Kept moving to his corner, and were nearing his objective (Vacant, because I had chased his suites away). I Flew my Flyrant over to his Suite squad and killed everything but Buffmander. My TGaunts did the autorally, and killed the 2 remaining broadsides in Shooting. His Turn 4: He realized that I was poised to Claim his objective, and was contesting My own (Mawloc, and next turn HGaunts). So he ran his remaining Riptide, and flamer suite at his objective. He Joined Buffmander to the Kroot. Skyray + Sniper drones managed to finish off my Flyrant and get Warlord. He finished off my remaining Tgaunts on his side of the board. My Turn 5: I deep struck my Mawloc on his riptide (2 Wounds left) to prevent him from contesting his objective, but I scattered, and did nothing. My squad of 3 TGaunts moved through cover + ran a total of 5 inches which was enough to claim the objective with only 3 models. My Hgaunts moved into LOS blocking ruins to contest my objective. My Zoey in the middle of the board didn't have range on the riptide, but did lance the flamer suite to death. My Mawloc Assaulted and Killed one of the 10 man Kroot squads. Last one was contesting my objectives with 7 models left. Between HGaunts, Zoey, and Mawloc they would have died next turn. His Turn 5: His riptide managed to shoot and kill 4 Tgaunts essentially shooting my off of his objective. He killed my zoey in the middle of the board. If the game went to turn 6 or 7, My Mawloc + TGaunts would have killed the riptide (or at least tarpitted it), and my other Mawloc + Zoey + HGaunts would have killed the Kroot, and I would have claimed both objectives (if my TGaunts do ok with no Synapse). But the Game ended turn 5, so Tau wins 3(warlord, Linebreaker, Firstblood) to 1(linebreaker).
I am so annoyed by Tau, and their high wound, good save long range powerful shooting, and buffmander. I think I'm done playing any army with this Cheese unless we can agree on at least 4 pieces of LOS blocking terrain. Even with Kroot as a Handicap I still have to play a perfect game to get to a place where a turn 5 roll might win it for me. I outplayed my opponent, and got a little lucky, but it didn't really matter in the end, because Tau is just too strong.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/18 01:17:29
2025/11/18 10:08:07
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Battle Report p.49)
Yeah, it can be rather frustrating playing against Tau. They just ignore so many of the normal rule mechanics. So far, my hardest matchups - and I'm talking about all my armies, not just my Tyranids - have been against Tau.
I think this thread has been an invaluable source of information for everyone! I know I've picked up quite a few tips; especially concerning what could be considered non-standard units like the swarmlord.
Awhile back, people mentioned having moderate success with raveners. Has anyone had a chance to do extensive testing with them to see how a list with them is fairing as opposed to the more popular lists? Or what about more warrior centric lists? I think it would be great if our little T4 backbones could finally make it back into the game!
2014/02/17 19:54:28
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Battle Report p.49)
eclipseoto wrote: I'm not knowledgeable enough in Mechdar, is that a pretty standard list or on the weaker side?
Mechdar is a really strong and competitive Eldar army.
Lechine's opponent's mechdar may not have been the most optimized Mechdar army, but it is still a very competitive Eldar army.
In that case good on ya! One of my friends runs one of the nastiest tau lists I've ever seen. A real tactician too. I'm hoping to compile a good enough list to put up a fight for the next time he visits.
2014/02/17 21:40:37
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Battle Report p.49)
Hey jy2, this is a list I changed from yesterday, whats your opinion on it?
1850
Flyrant w/Reaper and HVC, HC, Electroshock
Flyrant w/LW/BS and HVC, HC, toxin sacs, Electroshock
Tervigon
30 gants (no devs, 30 shots vs 50)
6 Warriors w/rending claws, devourers, barbed strangler and LW/BS (outflank)
Mawloc
Biovore brood x2
Crone
Crone
Crone (Harpy could stay and give Tyrants AG with minor tweaks)
Are the Tyrants top heavy in this list? Yes. But played 'properly' aggressive, they are flexible enough to vector or shoot tanks, shock tanks, or strength 5 template troops, and then assault targets of opportunity. The AG option ensures assaults and allows instant death on a lot of tough marine leaders.
A lot of points to put into 2 HQ's, but augmented with the three other fliers they are pretty damaging.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/17 21:52:29
Iechine wrote: Hey jy2, this is a list I changed from yesterday, whats your opinion on it?
1850
Flyrant w/Reaper and HVC, HC, Electroshock
Flyrant w/LW/BS and HVC, HC, toxin sacs, Electroshock
Tervigon
30 gants (no devs, 30 shots vs 50)
6 Warriors w/rending claws, devourers, barbed strangler and LW/BS (outflank)
Mawloc
Biovore brood x2
Crone
Crone
Crone (Harpy could stay and give Tyrants AG with minor tweaks)
Are the Tyrants top heavy in this list? Yes. But played 'properly' aggressive, they are flexible enough to vector or shoot tanks, shock tanks, or strength 5 template troops, and then assault targets of opportunity. The AG option ensures assaults and allows instant death on a lot of tough marine leaders.
A lot of points to put into 2 HQ's, but augmented with the three other fliers they are pretty damaging.
If you want to play your flyrants from range (with HVC's), that's fine. They'll probably live just a little bit longer....as in 1 turn longer. However, to beat the top armies, you need volume-of-fire. Quality of shots is not as effective as quantity of shots. That's why personally, I prefer the brainleech devourers. Yeah, you have to put them more in harms way, but if you coordinate your attacks together with the rest of your army, I feel that you can have a more devastating beta-strike on Turn 2. It really boils down to how you would like to play them - either more aggressively or more conservatively.
I don't believe you need 3 crones. 2 is the most that I would use. The reason is that the crone is more of a niche unit rather than a flexible mainstay of the army. FMC-spam tyranids on the whole is a somewhat unbalanced army. While FMC-bugs is strong, you will come up to certain matchups who really don't care all that much for flyer-overload. Thus, I'd go no more than 4 flyers in my list (2 flyrants + 2 crones) and invest the rest of the points into a stronger ground presence. In other words, I'd prefer to take 2 crones + 2 mawlocs over 3 crones/harpy combo + 1 mawloc.
Nice melee list. I am running something similar. But why dont you make 6x 10 Hormagaunts instad of 3x 20? It would give you some advantages, narly no disadvantages and you can use two small units still like one big unit.
Yes they might be easy first blood but who has the free shots to kill some hormagaunts when there are shrikes, raveners and flyrants knocking on his door in turn 1?
2014/02/18 00:51:02
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Battle Report p.49)
Nice melee list. I am running something similar. But why dont you make 6x 10 Hormagaunts instad of 3x 20? It would give you some advantages, narly no disadvantages and you can use two small units still like one big unit.
Yes they might be easy first blood but who has the free shots to kill some hormagaunts when there are shrikes, raveners and flyrants knocking on his door in turn 1?
Definitely interesting...I don't like 10 man squads...but you've just convinced me to go to 4 15s...5 12s also feels a little light to me.
^ I agree with MasterOfGaunts, the benefits of MSU outweigh the negatives.
ductvader wrote: 2. Most Eldar lists can't hande a semi-horde or better army...we don't have enough shots.
Unfortunately they can still handle Tyranid hordes, as all you need to do to take out a Tyranid horde list is kill the Synapse units and watch the army dismantle itself. I don't consider horde to be viable with Nids at all as long as we keep these instinctive Behaviour rules, the only horde units that won't run off the table/kill 25% of themselves then run off the table are Gargoyles and Rippers, neither of which are scoring.
So I've been consistently rolling every power but Catalyst in my games (I think I've had 4 games in a row now with no Catalyst at all). I've never been so unhappy to not roll 1s.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/18 01:23:38
Ailaros wrote: You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.
"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!"
2025/11/01 19:48:56
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Battle Report p.49)
Every Zoanthrope you take in a brood gives you diminishing returns, I'd rather have 3 units of 1 than 1 unit of 3.
Ailaros wrote: You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.
"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!"
2014/02/18 02:12:07
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Battle Report p.49)
PrinceRaven wrote: Every Zoanthrope you take in a brood gives you diminishing returns, I'd rather have 3 units of 1 than 1 unit of 3.
But...a list with six to nine puts out some decent damage as well as synapse coverage.
That's my point. Any army, especially Tyranids, have limited FOC slots. So whilst you have diminishing returns, another 200pts to flesh out my two single zoan squads, a good idea?
I mean, a hefty chunk of firepower and good Synapse coverage for a mere 150pts.
Hey jy2, this is a list I changed from yesterday, whats your opinion on it?
1850
Flyrant w/Reaper and HVC, HC, Electroshock
Flyrant w/LW/BS and HVC, HC, toxin sacs, Electroshock
Tervigon
30 gants (no devs, 30 shots vs 50)
6 Warriors w/rending claws, devourers, barbed strangler and LW/BS (outflank)
Mawloc
Biovore brood x2
Crone
Crone
Crone (Harpy could stay and give Tyrants AG with minor tweaks)
Are the Tyrants top heavy in this list? Yes. But played 'properly' aggressive, they are flexible enough to vector or shoot tanks, shock tanks, or strength 5 template troops, and then assault targets of opportunity. The AG option ensures assaults and allows instant death on a lot of tough marine leaders.
A lot of points to put into 2 HQ's, but augmented with the three other fliers they are pretty damaging.
Spoiler:
If you want to play your flyrants from range (with HVC's), that's fine. They'll probably live just a little bit longer....as in 1 turn longer. However, to beat the top armies, you need volume-of-fire. Quality of shots is not as effective as quantity of shots. That's why personally, I prefer the brainleech devourers. Yeah, you have to put them more in harms way, but if you coordinate your attacks together with the rest of your army, I feel that you can have a more devastating beta-strike on Turn 2. It really boils down to how you would like to play them - either more aggressively or more conservatively.
I don't believe you need 3 crones. 2 is the most that I would use. The reason is that the crone is more of a niche unit rather than a flexible mainstay of the army. FMC-spam tyranids on the whole is a somewhat unbalanced army. While FMC-bugs is strong, you will come up to certain matchups who really don't care all that much for flyer-overload. Thus, I'd go no more than 4 flyers in my list (2 flyrants + 2 crones) and invest the rest of the points into a stronger ground presence. In other words, I'd prefer to take 2 crones + 2 mawlocs over 3 crones/harpy combo + 1 mawloc
JY2, Could you expand on this a bit. What sort of matchups should Bug Flying Circus(BFC) fear. I've been paying attention to my local meta, and the only list I've seen that made me fear was an IG player who claimed he ran 3 hydras, 2 Vendettas and an Aegis with a Quad Gun, but that list is clearly tailored to be anti-flyer, and he didn't seem like a very confident player. The 9 skyfire broadsides + buffmander list is probably going to kill any other 'nid build nearly as effectively as it can kill BFC.
BFC seems like it can handle Mech better than most other Tyranid builds, and most of the lists that can beat it can also beat other 'nid builds just as well. Is there a Tyranid list that is good while not being unbalanced?
Also, have you decided that Mawlocs are the way to go for Heavy Support? I'm still interested in trying a 3 Exocrine list, and a 9 biovore list (carpet bombing), but am finding myself increasingly falling into this camp. Mawlocs + BFC seem like the (only?) way to give Tyranids mobility to compete with modern lists.
2014/02/18 02:23:24
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Battle Report p.49)
Well, you could get each unit 2 more bodies, or you could get 2 dakkafices. Personally, I prefer the dakkafices.
Ailaros wrote: You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.
"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!"
.....Bay Area Open GT 2013 - Best Tyranids 
.....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals
