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 gorgon wrote:

I think especially with this codex, your unit mix is key. For instance, Flyrants seem to work better in armies with multiple FMCs. In ground-based builds (like those featuring Dakkafexes), Primes start to make more sense. Etc. Rather than anything being "core" the way Tervigons were in the last book, it's as though the core and even the satellite units greatly depend on the style of army you want to run.

This doesn't seem like an especially bold revelation, but I think it might be useful to approach Tyranid listbuilding as "no core without context." This is why you see such varying opinions here on units like Tyrants, Exocrines, etc. My first playtest army used an Exocrine and I almost immediately realized I wasn't going to get much out of it because of the army around it.

This. This is what has caused me tonight to go, convert another pair of Twin-Devourers to replace the Scything Talons on my Venom-Cannon foot Tyrant. The flyrant for the time being seems to be my staple anti-air unit but it really needs to be kept back and sent in with its speed when the time is right - preferably when everything else arrives or is about to hit their lines.

But currently I am considering the following idea...

Flyrant - Twin Devourers
Hive Tyrant - Twin Devourers, Venom Cannon

2 Venomthropes
Zoanthrope
Zoanthrope

Termagaunt brood
Termagaunt brood
Hormagaunt brood
Tervigon
Genestealers

Raveners
Raveners
Gargoyles

Dakkafex Brood
Dakkafex Brood
Trygon

The idea is to have a constant advancing, dakkafull foot swarm just pouring out streams of fire for a heavy impact in Turn 2 or 3 depending on what the threats

The Trygon, Gargoyles, Hormagaunts and outflanking Stealers will be the immediate threats....the firebase is a secondary threat.

 tetrisphreak wrote:
Here's something I did last night that I think will help our FMC's out a bit. Please call me out if you feel this is MFA.

Most players will mount the cross pieces of their flight stands, so that the nose of the plane/flyer is parallel with the longer axis of the oval base. If you measure the base in inches, it's something like 4.5"x5.5". I've taken my flight stems for my FMC's (harpy, crone) and rotated it 90 degrees, so that the nose of the flyer is facing the shorter part of the oval. It's not much, but with a 24" only move, the extra inch to inch and a half of free space will help pull off some moves and vector strikes that would be impossible or very narrow if the flight stem was rotated the other way.

Since there's no instruction of how exactly to glue the flight stand to the oval base, is this MFA? TFG? Or just a savvy tyranid player taking every (much needed) advantage he can grab?

Pg 49 covers that. Just keep the same direction as forward.

The interesting part is that everyone's troop selections are different. Isn't this where you are winning or losing your game? Or are they there to survive and hopefully still be around to claim an objective.

As people have posted their lists it's a very changing element where say the flyrant is mostly there.

Gatekeeper wrote:
The interesting part is that everyone's troop selections are different. Isn't this where you are winning or losing your game? Or are they there to survive and hopefully still be around to claim an objective.

As people have posted their lists it's a very changing element where say the flyrant is mostly there.

I think it is more because the Troops section is out weakest, and people just really aren't sure what to do with it.

 gorgon wrote:
I think especially with this codex, your unit mix is key. For instance, Flyrants seem to work better in armies with multiple FMCs. In ground-based builds (like those featuring Dakkafexes), Primes start to make more sense. Etc. Rather than anything being "core" the way Tervigons were in the last book, it's as though the core and even the satellite units greatly depend on the style of army you want to run.

This doesn't seem like an especially bold revelation, but I think it might be useful to approach Tyranid listbuilding as "no core without context." This is why you see such varying opinions here on units like Tyrants, Exocrines, etc. My first playtest army used an Exocrine and I almost immediately realized I wasn't going to get much out of it because of the army around it.

Kind of interesting to think that there may be multiple viable builds in the codex? There was allot of talk about the codex only having a mono build when it came out... I agree with you, it seems they were a little unfounded and that there is a couple of really good and equally competitive builds?

Turn 2 Alpha Strike List:
Dakka Flyrant's
Outflanking devil gaunt's
Mawloc's
Crone's

Shooty walking type list:
Shooty prime's in gaunt squads
Dakka fexes
Venomthropes
Bastion
Exocrines
T-Fex's








Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eldercaveman wrote:

Gatekeeper wrote:
The interesting part is that everyone's troop selections are different. Isn't this where you are winning or losing your game? Or are they there to survive and hopefully still be around to claim an objective.

As people have posted their lists it's a very changing element where say the flyrant is mostly there.

I think it is more because the Troops section is out weakest, and people just really aren't sure what to do with it.

Troops these day's are for late scoring though. I make sure I have some but I don't expect them to do anything (unless outflanking devilgaunts) other than be on an objective at the end of the game. Id argue the majority of the top list's have the same idea?

The problem is our troops are weak when it comes to late scoring. Everything is either overpriced, runs away, kills each other then runs away, can't score, or a Tervigon.

bodazoka wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
I think especially with this codex, your unit mix is key. For instance, Flyrants seem to work better in armies with multiple FMCs. In ground-based builds (like those featuring Dakkafexes), Primes start to make more sense. Etc. Rather than anything being "core" the way Tervigons were in the last book, it's as though the core and even the satellite units greatly depend on the style of army you want to run.

This doesn't seem like an especially bold revelation, but I think it might be useful to approach Tyranid listbuilding as "no core without context." This is why you see such varying opinions here on units like Tyrants, Exocrines, etc. My first playtest army used an Exocrine and I almost immediately realized I wasn't going to get much out of it because of the army around it.

Kind of interesting to think that there may be multiple viable builds in the codex? There was allot of talk about the codex only having a mono build when it came out... I agree with you, it seems they were a little unfounded and that there is a couple of really good and equally competitive builds?

Turn 2 Alpha Strike List:
Dakka Flyrant's
Outflanking devil gaunt's
Mawloc's
Crone's

Shooty walking type list:
Shooty prime's in gaunt squads
Dakka fexes
Venomthropes
Bastion
Exocrines
T-Fex's

Not really, I think right now everyone is looking for the one or 2 builds that will be across the board effective or have the least hard counters. I would not say we have found any good competitive builds yet. Just that the T2 Tsunami and the dakkawall are looking to be the most viable.

barnowl wrote:
Not really, I think right now everyone is looking for the one or 2 builds that will be across the board effective or have the least hard counters. I would not say we have found any good competitive builds yet. Just that the T2 Tsunami and the dakkawall are looking to be the most viable.

In your view would a competitive list at a minimum be one that is able to match it with the current GT winning lists?

I am still trying to find a list of as few models as possible that can still pack a punch. I sort of like the idea of having only big guys, as many as possible, so I try to balance it like this:

HQ 320
Deathleaper (warlord)
Tyranid Prime - Adrenal Glands, Deathspitter, Reaper

Elite 245
2x 2 Lictor
Venomthrope

Troops 234
3 Tyranid Warriors - Deathspitters, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs (Prime here)
3 Tyranid Warriors - Deathspitters

Heavy 700
2 Carnifex - 2 TL Devs
Exocrine
T-Fex - Adrenal Glands, Regeneration, Shreddershard beetles

Now that is 17 models. Sucks for synapse, though. I guess my previous attempt is better and I can get that down to 16 models only.

bodazoka wrote:

barnowl wrote:
Not really, I think right now everyone is looking for the one or 2 builds that will be across the board effective or have the least hard counters. I would not say we have found any good competitive builds yet. Just that the T2 Tsunami and the dakkawall are looking to be the most viable.

In your view would a competitive list at a minimum be one that is able to match it with the current GT winning lists?

I would say it is a list that can reliably old its own it against the majority of net list out there. (DE are ignored for this, I don't think we can really handle that much poison shooting)

Competitively, Tyranids suffer from bad match-ups against 4 common armies: Tau, Eldar, Dark Eldar & Space Marines. Remove those and we're actually pretty strong, thanks to our favourable match-ups against Necrons and Daemons.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Competitively, Tyranids suffer from bad match-ups against Space Marines.

Wat.

Grav-spam Centurions.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Grav-spam Centurions.

Haven't had a problem with them to date...as usual, just swarm them with gants.

Their limited target selection and mobility makes them mediocre.



My only "Oh crap how am I going to win this game" matchups are Straight Tau (No Eldar) and DEldar.

So, break it down. What are the units in the Tau that give Tyranid problems and why? What are their weaknesses in return?

Narrow down "the enemy" and come up with a biological antidote; it's the Hive Fleet Way.

Broadsides...

Riptides give me no grief.

And then you have a mixture of Sniper Kroot and FireWarriors...combined with Pathfinders.

Oh, and Skyrays kind of suck to face too....for how ridiculously cheap they are.



Tau weaknesses : CC and having very few units...

also...leadership (the only time I ever feel comfortable with tau is when i get a few instances of paroxysm or the horror...but staying in 24" to maledict is a problem for most of our units...thus my personal use for the swarmlord.

Smart missile systems absolutely murder our scoring and quick units. Riptides ripple firing SMS and broadsides/devilfish/sky rays make it impossible to hide scoring units.

Basically everything Tau have are problem units for Tyranids.

 ductvader wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Grav-spam Centurions.

Haven't had a problem with them to date...as usual, just swarm them with gants.

Their limited target selection and mobility makes them mediocre.

My gants don't live long enough to effectively tie them down - thunderfires and bolters take care of that. Meanwhile the Cents are deleting a MC a turn.
I can win those games, but it's not by tying them up with gants - I throw flyrants at them. They can only kill one, the other gets in and ties them up/kills them.

My only "Oh crap how am I going to win this game" matchups are Straight Tau (No Eldar) and DEldar.

I only really have a problem with DEldar. So far every other matchup I've played has been decent.

Two things:

Why no love for Trygons? Is it just that people would rather buy the cheaper Mawloc and spend the 100 points elsewhere?

I'm going to play in an oversized Tyranids vs. Everyone Else game on Saturday. I plan on bringing mostly big bugs so that I'm able to have fun. Are there any load outs that people have been wanting to try? I'm tempted to see how over upgraded MCs do. I imagine they die to shooting before I can make use of anything, but what the hell. .. May as well see for myself.

Wakshaani wrote:
So, break it down. What are the units in the Tau that give Tyranid problems and why? What are their weaknesses in return?

Narrow down "the enemy" and come up with a biological antidote; it's the Hive Fleet Way.

Broadsides Kill everything 'nid, and are very hard to Kill. The counter to them is Mawlocs, but if the TAU player knows what he is doing, they will line up single file along the board edge, so you can hit 2 at most. Worse they will be on the 2nd story of terrain, and thus unreachable.
Markerlight drones Ignore cover, and buff BS and force grounding checks.
Buffmander grants insane bonuses like hit and run, and monster hunter, and ignore cover, and win the game for taking, and several other bonuses.
Crisis Suites (especially deep striking), are a major threat. They have huge mobility, good BS, and good armor, and 2 wounds. Flamer suites have 2 flamers, and a singe flamer suite can often kill 10 - 18 gaunts on the turn they come in.
Riptides are threats to Warriors and other T4 'nids, because they can shoot a S9 large blast. They are also threats to Flyrants because they can have skyfire. Also, despite Flyrants looking like they are so much better than Riptides in Assault, a riptide can easily tarpit one, or even kill it in CC. Riptides have killed more flyrants in CC than the other way around in my 8 - 9 games against them.
Skyrays are threats to FMC's.
The Farsight Commander has a Deny the Witch upgrage that lets them roll 4 dice.

The only thing in the codex that doesn't regularly give me trouble are Kroot.

The problem isn't, there is one unit that can beat us. We could tailor to that. The problem is, every single Tau unit that anyone is going to take is a unit that can beat us, and they all have good saves, and huge range. Our strategy to beat Tau is to insist on LOS blocking terrain, and lots of it. We have to tailor both our Army and the Board to stand a chance.

 Lansirill wrote:
Two things:Why no love for Trygons? Is it just that people would rather buy the cheaper Mawloc and spend the 100 points elsewhere?

There is much love for a single Trygon Prime, but I can't find a reason to take a stock Trygon over a Mawloc or a Prime...unless you just really love snakes.

 Lansirill wrote:
I'm going to play in an oversized Tyranids vs. Everyone Else game on Saturday. I plan on bringing mostly big bugs so that I'm able to have fun. Are there any load outs that people have been wanting to try? I'm tempted to see how over upgraded MCs do. I imagine they die to shooting before I can make use of anything, but what the hell. .. May as well see for myself.

Play Old One Eye, I've yet to test him!

OOE is a beast - I had a lot of fun with him.

 Lansirill wrote:
Two things:

Why no love for Trygons? Is it just that people would rather buy the cheaper Mawloc and spend the 100 points elsewhere?

I'm going to play in an oversized Tyranids vs. Everyone Else game on Saturday. I plan on bringing mostly big bugs so that I'm able to have fun. Are there any load outs that people have been wanting to try? I'm tempted to see how over upgraded MCs do. I imagine they die to shooting before I can make use of anything, but what the hell. .. May as well see for myself.

I'll be there too but not to partake, I cant play all day. (Assuming you're going to Bowie bunker)

This thread wasn't in the top ten on the tactics page...I got concerned...

Well, the Tau things need to be digested a few at a time. The one sad thing is that the commonality of Smart Missile Systems means that Venomthropes just aren't very good against them. Ignores cover, needs no LOS, and a 30" range means that they'll probably wipe your Venoms in turn one... at least a smart player will. The only real defense, here, is to deploy only 10" deep (leaving you 26" from the enemy), stick them 5" deep behind the line, hope they don't notice that they have to advance to catch them, and rope a dope.

Failing that, adding a Tyrant Guard to the squad to tank with his 3+ save and 3 wounds against the AP 5 attacks. He can only take so many, but, you might get a round of life out of him.

Battlesuits all have the same weakness in melee, with Broadsides being the most vulnerable (good luck getting there!) but Riptides being a bigger issue at first. Gargoyles are the best answer for Riptides that I say, with a cloud of a dozen getting stuck into melee, Blinding it each round, and just tarpitting it for the rest of the game.

Markerlights aren't a big deal if you have no flyrants, simply because the Venopms will go down from other fire. AFter that, you screen the big bugs with the little bugs and swarm: A 5+ ain't great compared to the 3+ you SHOULD have, but it can get your big guys close enough to drop some dakka in there. Hormagaunts, as bad as they are, can do just terrible things to both Fire Warriors and Kroot, and serve as an ablative cover shield for the main body.

The things that they don't seem to have are really tough targets... no AV 14 main battle tanks, for instance. Exocrines can do a number on them, whie Dakkafexes should knock down transports, leaving the juicy warriors as targets.

I think it's winnable, but the army composition is going to have to be quite a bit different than what's going on currently. Hrm. Hrm hrm.

Wakshaani wrote:
Hormagaunts, as bad as they are, can do just terrible things to both Fire Warriors and Kroot, and serve as an ablative cover shield for the main body.

Hormagaunts arent bad, they just dont fit in every list, thats all. In a CC based list they are really effective, cause you can swarm the enemy to death in turn 2!

Wakshaani wrote:
Well, the Tau things need to be digested a few at a time. The one sad thing is that the commonality of Smart Missile Systems means that Venomthropes just aren't very good against them. Ignores cover, needs no LOS, and a 30" range means that they'll probably wipe your Venoms in turn one... at least a smart player will. The only real defense, here, is to deploy only 10" deep (leaving you 26" from the enemy), stick them 5" deep behind the line, hope they don't notice that they have to advance to catch them, and rope a dope.

Or you could just put him in a Bastion. You want the Bastion for a Comms Relay anyways.

Wakshaani wrote:
Failing that, adding a Tyrant Guard to the squad to tank with his 3+ save and 3 wounds against the AP 5 attacks. He can only take so many, but, you might get a round of life out of him..

You Know that Tyrant Guard aren't IC's right? They can't join Venoms. Do you mean a Tyranid Prime?

Wakshaani wrote:
Battlesuits all have the same weakness in melee, with Broadsides being the most vulnerable (good luck getting there!)

Not that weak. I got 26 TGaunts into assault on 2 Broadsides. Did a pile of wounds, and they made all of their saves, killed 2 TGaunts, and won Combat. The assault took them out of synapse, so they ran away.

Wakshaani wrote:
but Riptides being a bigger issue at first. Gargoyles are the best answer for Riptides that I say, with a cloud of a dozen getting stuck into melee, Blinding it each round, and just tarpitting it for the rest of the game.

I have been itching to try a 70-90 Gargoyle list VS. Tau. Unfortunately, I only have 3 gargoyle models. That being said, because of Tau's Combined overwatch, it is going to be hard to make that 1st charge. All of their guns are TL, and a savy Tau Player is going to keep his units bunched up so that they can all overwatch. I'm not positive that Riptides would be my 1st choice to Tarpit. Broadsides or a large squad of Missle Suites and Markerlights.

Wakshaani wrote:
Markerlights aren't a big deal if you have no flyrants, simply because the Venopms will go down from other fire. AFter that, you screen the big bugs with the little bugs and swarm: A 5+ ain't great compared to the 3+ you SHOULD have, but it can get your big guys close enough to drop some dakka in there.

You know they buff BS, right? Tau with Markerlights don't miss, and ignore cover. It is marker lights that lets them take out 3 Cfexes a turn.

Wakshaani wrote:
Hormagaunts, as bad as they are, can do just terrible things to both Fire Warriors and Kroot, and serve as an ablative cover shield for the main body.

Agreed, however flamers suits will remove them from the board rather easily.

Wakshaani wrote:
The things that they don't seem to have are really tough targets... no AV 14 main battle tanks, for instance. Exocrines can do a number on them, whie Dakkafexes should knock down transports, leaving the juicy warriors as targets. .

An Exocrine is probably killing 1 Broadside a turn (starting turn 2). It is better than most things, but still not great. It is problematic, because Tau can easily kill 1 in turn 1 before it gets into range, and Mawlocs are better anti-tau, and take up the same FOC slot. None-the-Less, I am still interested in trying a 3 Exocrine list.

Wakshaani wrote:
I think it's winnable, but the army composition is going to have to be quite a bit different than what's going on currently. Hrm. Hrm hrm.

I used to think this as well. After trying it I'm losing hope.

Mawlocs are the most effective against Tau. So building a Tau list we start with 3 Mawlocs (theoretically, 3 exocrines might work). To use them effectively we need a Bastion with a Comms Relay.
The next most effective are all in our fast attack. Harpies Vs. Gargoyles Vs. Crones all have their arguments. If using Gargoyles, you might want to include Shrikes for Synapse, if using other flyers you want Dakkafexes.
Then we want Gaunts, and lots of them. Genesteelers have some usefulness, especially if you are using Gargoyles, but Outflanking Devil gaunts are ok, and HGaunts are ok. You want bodies, so avoid upgrades (except for Devourers).
For our HQ. If we ran flyers we should run dakka flyrants. If we didn't, we should consider Tyranid primes, because we can bury them in a squad, and slingshot them into combat.

I think list building against Tau isn't that much different than the lists that are generally emerging.
Bastion with a Venom inside and a Comms relay.
1-2 Dakka Flyrants
2-3 Crones
2-3 Mawlocs
Outflanking Devil Gaunts
HGaunts to taste.

I think this list beats non-Ovesastar Tau about 10% of the time, and rely on favorable terrain. I think this list will table Tau 1% of the time, and be tabled by them about 15-30% of the time.

I may be wrong. Running 70 Gargoyles with 3 Exocrines might be the way to go, but until I see someone do it successfully, I'm dubious.

tag8833 wrote:
I may be wrong. Running 70 Gargoyles with 3 Exocrines might be the way to go, but until I see someone do it successfully, I'm dubious.

Gargoyle Bomb it!

Bleah, Tyranid PRIME, not Tyrant Guard. I knew what I meant but my fingers betrayed me. I should declare nine of them Heretics as a warning to the tenth!