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You are still inflicting only 1 wound, and they all have an invul save.
I think the biggest problem will become vehicles. Only 1 Vs and only 1 smash kinda hurts there.

Spoletta wrote:
You are still inflicting only 1 wound, and they all have an invul save.
I think the biggest problem will become vehicles. Only 1 Vs and only 1 smash kinda hurts there.

Is smash just a single attack and not halving attacks now?

In any case, Tentaclids are brutal against vehicles.

 Kain wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
So:

- Max 1 grounding check a turn and only on a wound
- Ap 2 ignore cover Vector strike
- Only 1 Vector strike at turn, except against other flyers.

With these rules, how do you foresee the future of the FMC spam?

Termies and Riptides are now FMC fodder.

Hive crones should eat Riptides for breakfast.

You're dreaming. A Skyfire Riptide with a HBC will kill a Crone in one round of shooting. Even easier if he overcharges.
If the Crone gets his one Vector Strike it's because the Riptide player was distracted.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Kain wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
So:

- Max 1 grounding check a turn and only on a wound
- Ap 2 ignore cover Vector strike
- Only 1 Vector strike at turn, except against other flyers.

With these rules, how do you foresee the future of the FMC spam?

Termies and Riptides are now FMC fodder.

Hive crones should eat Riptides for breakfast.

You're dreaming. A Skyfire Riptide with a HBC will kill a Crone in one round of shooting. Even easier if he overcharges.
If the Crone gets his one Vector Strike it's because the Riptide player was distracted.

Right I had a hardcore derp right there.

Let me put on my dunce hat.

In any case, my unbound lists for no-homebrew games look like they're going to be as many skyblight swarms as I can take to fit in super-scoring gargoyles, then using the spare points for Crones, Harpies, and Flyrants.

Maybe a harridan if I can justify that many points in one basket.

Nothing touches the ground if it doesn't have to.

 Kain wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Kain wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
So:

- Max 1 grounding check a turn and only on a wound
- Ap 2 ignore cover Vector strike
- Only 1 Vector strike at turn, except against other flyers.

With these rules, how do you foresee the future of the FMC spam?

Termies and Riptides are now FMC fodder.

Hive crones should eat Riptides for breakfast.

You're dreaming. A Skyfire Riptide with a HBC will kill a Crone in one round of shooting. Even easier if he overcharges.
If the Crone gets his one Vector Strike it's because the Riptide player was distracted.

Right I had a hardcore derp right there.

Let me put on my dunce hat.

In any case, my unbound lists for no-homebrew games look like they're going to be as many skyblight swarms as I can take to fit in super-scoring gargoyles, then using the spare points for Crones, Harpies, and Flyrants.

Maybe a harridan if I can justify that many points in one basket.

Nothing touches the ground if it doesn't have to.

Where have these Vector strike changes come from,last I read it was changed to D6 hits, but allows armour saves?

rigeld2 wrote:

You're dreaming. A Skyfire Riptide with a HBC will kill a Crone in one round of shooting. Even easier if he overcharges.
If the Crone gets his one Vector Strike it's because the Riptide player was distracted.

Now hold on... A sky fire riptide that overcharges successfully gets 12 shots yes? 6 hit, 4 wounds, assuming the crone has cover that goes down to just under 3 wounds, add in the 1/3 chance of grounding and it averages about 3. That's a living, angry crone. And if it does't nova charge the gun, your other crone will vector strike it to heck with only a 5++.

Ugh. I really hope that this new edition is not going to shoehorn BattleBugs into copycat army lists. I get tired of seeing ANY codex reduced to "play one of 1-2 list types or lose."

I know that, especially in the tourney and ultra-competitive set, 'the cream rises to the top.' That is the nature of the beast! But to have codexes where 1-2 lists are considered 'A' lists and anything else you can make is a D or worse is just wasteful.

I can't imagine how hard it is to balance something like 40K. But sometimes it seems that GW isn't even trying that hard...

 jifel wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

You're dreaming. A Skyfire Riptide with a HBC will kill a Crone in one round of shooting. Even easier if he overcharges.
If the Crone gets his one Vector Strike it's because the Riptide player was distracted.

Now hold on... A sky fire riptide that overcharges successfully gets 12 shots yes? 6 hit, 4 wounds, assuming the crone has cover that goes down to just under 3 wounds, add in the 1/3 chance of grounding and it averages about 3. That's a living, angry crone. And if it does't nova charge the gun, your other crone will vector strike it to heck with only a 5++.

Because Riptides only ever fire the HBC - never the secondary guns.
Even the base TL SMS adds another 1-2 wounds (which means it's a dead Crone btw)

And "vector strike to heck" meaning a single wound minus the invul? Oh, poor Riptide...

KillerWabbit wrote:
Ugh. I really hope that this new edition is not going to shoehorn BattleBugs into copycat army lists. I get tired of seeing ANY codex reduced to "play one of 1-2 list types or lose."

The new smash rules means that any TMC that isn't a Carnifex is boned in assault with a melee walker. A contemptor furioso dread with blood talons can conceivably tear through an entire Tyranid army without any real risk to itself once it can get into assault should the Tyranid army not have a Carnifex.

 Kain wrote:

KillerWabbit wrote:
Ugh. I really hope that this new edition is not going to shoehorn BattleBugs into copycat army lists. I get tired of seeing ANY codex reduced to "play one of 1-2 list types or lose."

The new smash rules means that any TMC that isn't a Carnifex is boned in assault with a melee walker. A contemptor furioso dread with blood talons can conceivably tear through an entire Tyranid army without any real risk to itself once it can get into assault should the Tyranid army not have a Carnifex.

Makes you wonder why they don't just give MCs the old +d6 vs vehicles rule again. I guess they wanted Smash to be a way any MC COULD hurt a vehicle, but not where a MC could shred most of them without a care in the world? Especially since it primarily hurts only Tyranid players; most other lists with MCs either have dedicated shooters or S8+ models.

Oh well!

KillerWabbit wrote:

 Kain wrote:

KillerWabbit wrote:
Ugh. I really hope that this new edition is not going to shoehorn BattleBugs into copycat army lists. I get tired of seeing ANY codex reduced to "play one of 1-2 list types or lose."

The new smash rules means that any TMC that isn't a Carnifex is boned in assault with a melee walker. A contemptor furioso dread with blood talons can conceivably tear through an entire Tyranid army without any real risk to itself once it can get into assault should the Tyranid army not have a Carnifex.

Makes you wonder why they don't just give MCs the old +d6 vs vehicles rule again. I guess they wanted Smash to be a way any MC COULD hurt a vehicle, but not where a MC could shred most of them without a care in the world? Especially since it primarily hurts only Tyranid players; most other lists with MCs either have dedicated shooters or S8+ models.

Oh well!

The new rule does mean that a Khornate daemon list is now completely and utterly boned against mech lists. Their one source of AV: a smashing bloodthirster, is now crap at the task. I suppose there's also soul grinders but they're not going to do them much good against a dread spam list.

Looks like Khorne better bite the pillow when Furioso dreads come knocking.

So at least one army has it worse than us.

wait wait wait...should the army not have a carnifex.

Who would do such a thing?

 ductvader wrote:
wait wait wait...should the army not have a carnifex.

Who would do such a thing?

People running Trygons, Mawlocs, Exorcines, or Biovores in their HS slots.

 tetrisphreak wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Unfortunately there are other rules that prevent armies from allying with themselves.

But not from taking multiple detachments regardless of points.

I keep seeing this MENTIONED but never PROVEN.

Do we have certin confirmation on that yet? Because, man, does it open up a TON of Tyranid possibilities.

rigeld2 wrote:

 jifel wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

You're dreaming. A Skyfire Riptide with a HBC will kill a Crone in one round of shooting. Even easier if he overcharges.
If the Crone gets his one Vector Strike it's because the Riptide player was distracted.

Now hold on... A sky fire riptide that overcharges successfully gets 12 shots yes? 6 hit, 4 wounds, assuming the crone has cover that goes down to just under 3 wounds, add in the 1/3 chance of grounding and it averages about 3. That's a living, angry crone. And if it does't nova charge the gun, your other crone will vector strike it to heck with only a 5++.

Because Riptides only ever fire the HBC - never the secondary guns.
Even the base TL SMS adds another 1-2 wounds (which means it's a dead Crone btw)

And "vector strike to heck" meaning a single wound minus the invul? Oh, poor Riptide...

Ok throw in a SMS. 4 TL Str5 AP 5 shots right?

3 hits, 1.5 wounds, 0.75 failed right? So now that crone has take ~3.75. Still alive. And I'm assuming Vector Strike is still a d3+1... So average 3 hits on a Riptide, and after the 5++ we're talking 1 and 2/3 wounds caused. Nothing broken, but with a few Crones that starts to hurt. I'm not saying that Riptides are suddenly bad, they're still pretty good. I'm just saying that we may have a chance of killing them now instead of ignoring them and going for troops.

Can anyone link directly to confirmation of the new Vector Strike rules? And the new allies rules for that matter. I can see the wisdom of talking about things that have been posted up directly, but it is a week too early to get too worked up about things that could just be troll-rumours.

 jifel wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 jifel wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

You're dreaming. A Skyfire Riptide with a HBC will kill a Crone in one round of shooting. Even easier if he overcharges.
If the Crone gets his one Vector Strike it's because the Riptide player was distracted.

Now hold on... A sky fire riptide that overcharges successfully gets 12 shots yes? 6 hit, 4 wounds, assuming the crone has cover that goes down to just under 3 wounds, add in the 1/3 chance of grounding and it averages about 3. That's a living, angry crone. And if it does't nova charge the gun, your other crone will vector strike it to heck with only a 5++.

Because Riptides only ever fire the HBC - never the secondary guns.
Even the base TL SMS adds another 1-2 wounds (which means it's a dead Crone btw)

And "vector strike to heck" meaning a single wound minus the invul? Oh, poor Riptide...

Ok throw in a SMS. 4 TL Str5 AP 5 shots right?

3 hits, 1.5 wounds, 0.75 failed right? So now that crone has take ~3.75. Still alive. And I'm assuming Vector Strike is still a d3+1... So average 3 hits on a Riptide, and after the 5++ we're talking 1 and 2/3 wounds caused. Nothing broken, but with a few Crones that starts to hurt. I'm not saying that Riptides are suddenly bad, they're still pretty good. I'm just saying that we may have a chance of killing them now instead of ignoring them and going for troops.

Poor assumption when it's rumored to only be 1 against non-Flyers.

I missed that rumor! It would certainly change things. If that's true, then I'd agree it's not very effective. Well, Saturday will tell!

Multiple sources are posting stuff now, and things are lining up. All of this is looking very likely:

No first turn charging at all.

Charge through cover is -2" unless move through cover or beast, but you still attack at I1 without assault grenades.

You need 7+ on the damage table to kill vehicles in one shot.

Melee attacks against vehicles remove 1hp / glance and 2hp / pen.

Smash is only one attack, otherwise same as now.

Vector strike is single hit or D3 against a flyer, at AP2

A grounding test is taken at the end of the phase if the FMC takes one or more wounds

You can ally using Come the Apocalypse now. It uses the same rules as Desperate Allies, but the units cannot deploy within 12"

The only ranged Tyranid AP1/2 weapon that can pen heavy armour is Warp Lance - if you don't have it you need lots of glances, Haywire or melee for AV13/14. Heavy Venom Cannons and Rupture Cannons(!) can only wear vehicles down, not kill them.

They're effectively improving the new Haruspex kit by making every other MC (except Fexes) worse in melee. FMC spam will still be viable, especially Skyblight. Ground-based Nids are actually looking worse off unless there's something huge we haven't seen yet.

On the bright side, we can take Genestealer Cults with a bunch of IG tanks as our ranged anti-armour*.


*buy more models to make your army playable! - GW

Wakshaani wrote:

 tetrisphreak wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Unfortunately there are other rules that prevent armies from allying with themselves.

But not from taking multiple detachments regardless of points.

I keep seeing this MENTIONED but never PROVEN.

Do we have certin confirmation on that yet? Because, man, does it open up a TON of Tyranid possibilities.

From the Games Workshop Blog:



First paragraph, upper left hand corner.

See the rumors that I had heard were that FMC would still retain their d3+1 hits on vector strikes and only actual flyers would have 1 hit for vector strikes (suck it heldrake!) has this changed?

 tetrisphreak wrote:

Wakshaani wrote:

 tetrisphreak wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Unfortunately there are other rules that prevent armies from allying with themselves.

But not from taking multiple detachments regardless of points.

I keep seeing this MENTIONED but never PROVEN.

Do we have certin confirmation on that yet? Because, man, does it open up a TON of Tyranid possibilities.

From the Games Workshop Blog:



First paragraph, upper left hand corner.

Beautiful.

So, we can take multiple Flyrants and formations, essentially allying with ourselves. Considering our troops are cheap and cheerful it opens the window for multiple flyrants.

And considering that Psyker spam may become a thing now....

Such a shame we still can't take basic rulebook disciplines. I seriously hope the Shadow does something significant to help up with DtW

Apparently Swarms are allowed to score now. Take Rippers if you feel so inclined!

Sadly knee-jerk tournament organizers will list events as 2 detachments max battle forged etc etc.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

Beautiful.

So, we can take multiple Flyrants and formations, essentially allying with ourselves. Considering our troops are cheap and cheerful it opens the window for multiple flyrants.

And considering that Psyker spam may become a thing now....

Such a shame we still can't take basic rulebook disciplines. I seriously hope the Shadow does something significant to help up with DtW

This is certainly a reason why the Tyranid Prime went up in cost. If they were, say, 75 pts each, which is about the right cost, then you'd have 155 pt "Detachment Tax" fees, letting us grab 2-3 detatchments worth of stuff. With, you know, 6-9 ELite slots, I know I could be fielding Pyrovores without guilt, since Zoanthropes and Venomthropes are gonna have elbow room.

With 18 Troops slots, I wouldn't even feel bad burning some on Ripper Swarms, which might be scoring units again. Scary!

1. If swarms score, rippers just became better than gants. One less wound, but stealth, fearless by themselves and near impossible to see. In Skyblight at least, they're excellent.
2. Flyrants cost 240 points now, because you have to put Haywire on everything. Seriously, even Hive Guard make haywire look attractive. Crones, Flyrants, Hive guard. We need so much haywire right now.

Did anyone rely on smash to pop vehicles? I rarely used that attack or wanted to use that attack to do that. I would always glance it to death or fly around the back/sides and get at it that way.

Also does smash still get the benefits of modifiers like charging? so a 4 or 3 attack model may only then loose 1 x attack when all is said and done?

bodazoka wrote:
Did anyone rely on smash to pop vehicles? I rarely used that attack or wanted to use that attack to do that. I would always glance it to death or fly around the back/sides and get at it that way.

Also does smash still get the benefits of modifiers like charging? so a 4 or 3 attack model may only then loose 1 x attack when all is said and done?

I used it on Daemon Princes, characters, Leman Russ, Land Raiders... it's kinda important sadly. Now, we are just being forced to shoot them. So Flyrants took an overall boost I think. But Crones took a minor nerf, as did Harpies. Daemon Princes and Thirsters both took big hits.

 jifel wrote:

bodazoka wrote:
Did anyone rely on smash to pop vehicles? I rarely used that attack or wanted to use that attack to do that. I would always glance it to death or fly around the back/sides and get at it that way.

Also does smash still get the benefits of modifiers like charging? so a 4 or 3 attack model may only then loose 1 x attack when all is said and done?

I used it on Daemon Princes, characters, Leman Russ, Land Raiders... it's kinda important sadly. Now, we are just being forced to shoot them. So Flyrants took an overall boost I think. But Crones took a minor nerf, as did Harpies. Daemon Princes and Thirsters both took big hits.

Agreed on characters and models you could double out it is a bit of a nerf, I just never relied on CC killing tanks. I have no sadness for the other non Tyranid FMC's getting nerfs! haha
Ill have a look at lunch time regarding the extra attacks for smash when charging.

bodazoka wrote:
Did anyone rely on smash to pop vehicles? I rarely used that attack or wanted to use that attack to do that. I would always glance it to death or fly around the back/sides and get at it that way.

Also does smash still get the benefits of modifiers like charging? so a 4 or 3 attack model may only then loose 1 x attack when all is said and done?

Trygons need smash to be good against vehicles, as did meleerants and pretty much any tyranid MC in melee that isn't a Carnifex.

With the new rules, I see the Trygon's only competetive usage to be as a paperweight or diorama piece.