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 jifel wrote:
So shadows now sucks huge kroot balls. Great. Really Gw? It wasn't hard.

Well now it doesnt deny powers...simply taking psykers helps you deny...but it makes perils way more dangerous.

 ductvader wrote:
And the Broodlord...which I guess isn't all too common, nevermind me. I was play with the Hunting pack.

So ignoring the Broodlord (because I don't feel like messing with it) it's STR5+6+3 for a 14.
3 attacks * 2/3 to hit * 1/6 to Rend * 1/3 to get a 3 = .1111 (repeating) HP per stealer. On average 36 stealers to kill a Raider without a Broodlord.
Adding ScyTals brings it to .148/stealer so 27 stealers per Land Raider.

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:
The Last two are changed significantly if you put crushing claws on your CC fex....

You are correct. Adrenal glands would also make an impact. I didn't run the math for either of those. The CCFexes that I used were base with no upgrades.

Honestly, I'm... unsure that Crushing Claws are worth it on Carnifexes. They just aren't fast enough to be a really viable close combat unit. So if you want to run them assault only, I would keep them cheap. I think Crushing claws are a more worthwhile upgrade on a Tervigon, especially if it is running your backfield, that gives it the ability to deal with drop pods and Rhinos a bit. Now that Drop Pods are super scoring, you've got to clear them out somehow, and a Tervigon's firepower isn't needed elsewhere. Tervigons despite being over-costed to begin with, have transformed a bit to me, and I plan to run a Troop Tervigon in most of my armies that is outfitted with Electroshock Grubs and Crushing Claws.

I also plan to make Dakka-fexes a staple again. I had mostly switched my Heavy support away from them, but with the 7th edition changes, I need the high strength so very, very badly.

I think the bones of my (non-skyblight) TAC list are going to be:
Dakka Flyrant with E.Grubs
Dakka Flyrant with E.Grubs

Venom
Zoey
Zoey

30 TGaunts
1 Tervigon w/ Crushing Claws and E.Grubs
15-20 Poisen HGaunts

2 Dakka Fexes w/ AG (maybe no AG)

I haven't decided what to add to it yet to fill it out. Probably Crones and Mawlocs. It is definitely substantially weaker than my 6th edition list, but GW swung the nerf bat pretty hard.

On the other hand, I do have a 30.56% chance of getting Master of Ambush, and taking my warlord flyrant, Venom, Dakkafexes, and (Tervigon or TGaunts) to midfield.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
FAQ's up, Broodlords can actually use Dominion now.

This has been discussed a bit in a few threads. It looks like since Broodlords don't actually roll their powers, they don't get Psychic Focus. So Broodlords are stuck with just The Horror. (Which is not exactly a bad power with the buff to pinning attacks!)

The Tyranid FAQ is a joke. Tyranids are now a solidly bottom tier army. GW=HATE

I don't understand why you'd think this...

Honestly the FAQ doesn't seem to have changed much of anything, so to me Tyranids are wherever they were before the FAQ came out.

SitW not getting an updated entry is a bit strange, I think, but it's not like it doesn't function at all. Enemy psykers are still -3Ld in all instances, including the Ld checks to resist Perils. Sure it doesn't do much to block enemy psyhic abilities anymore, but we do have quite a few psyker options in the codex to generate dispel dice. I would have liked to see "a unit with this rule that is not a psyker counts as a ML1 psyker when generating dispel dice" or something like that (which would really only matter for Warriors I think).

Either way, I'm not sure even I would put Tyranids at "solidly bottom tier".

tag8833 wrote:
The Tyranid FAQ is a joke. Tyranids are now a solidly bottom tier army. GW=HATE

We aren't bottom tier, but we are repeatedly being screwed over by the changes GW makes to the game.

Wow. Why did they even bother doing an "official" FAQ for Nids then? Literally, everything they changed doesn't make any difference.

One question, however: I've seen people referring to "Master of Ambush" strategic trait and being able to "reroll" when they don't get the one they want. Why the reroll?

 streamdragon wrote:
Honestly the FAQ doesn't seem to have changed much of anything, so to me Tyranids are wherever they were before the FAQ came out.

SitW not getting an updated entry is a bit strange, I think, but it's not like it doesn't function at all. Enemy psykers are still -3Ld in all instances, including the Ld checks to resist Perils. Sure it doesn't do much to block enemy psyhic abilities anymore, but we do have quite a few psyker options in the codex to generate dispel dice. I would have liked to see "a unit with this rule that is not a psyker counts as a ML1 psyker when generating dispel dice" or something like that (which would really only matter for Warriors I think).

Either way, I'm not sure even I would put Tyranids at "solidly bottom tier".

It's almost like they wrote SiTW in such a way that it would continue to function with the edition changes...

Hey guys,

Trying to catch up on this thread a little bit. Why is it that the majority feels that skyblight is still the way to go? It seems like the crone got a bit worse with the vector strike nerf and did the harpy really get that much better by not being grounded as easy?

BeeCee wrote:
Hey guys,

Trying to catch up on this thread a little bit. Why is it that the majority feels that skyblight is still the way to go? It seems like the crone got a bit worse with the vector strike nerf and did the harpy really get that much better by not being grounded as easy?

Flyrants are much better. Gargoyles with Objective secured are still really good. Crones and Harpies are worse assaulters/Vector Strikers but better gun platforms. We are highly mobile and can reach objectives easily. Crones are needed for Haywire. Plus, ground Monstrous creatures that rely on assault got horribly nerfed.

Eldercaveman wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:
Honestly the FAQ doesn't seem to have changed much of anything, so to me Tyranids are wherever they were before the FAQ came out.

SitW not getting an updated entry is a bit strange, I think, but it's not like it doesn't function at all. Enemy psykers are still -3Ld in all instances, including the Ld checks to resist Perils. Sure it doesn't do much to block enemy psyhic abilities anymore, but we do have quite a few psyker options in the codex to generate dispel dice. I would have liked to see "a unit with this rule that is not a psyker counts as a ML1 psyker when generating dispel dice" or something like that (which would really only matter for Warriors I think).

Either way, I'm not sure even I would put Tyranids at "solidly bottom tier".

It's almost like they wrote SiTW in such a way that it would continue to function with the edition changes...

The rule itself still functions, but its original purpose of making powers harder to cast is no longer functional. I mean, there are lots of books whose rules still function, but I doubt the 4e Ork Codex was designed with 7e (or even 6e or 5e!) in mind.

 streamdragon wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
FAQ's up, Broodlords can actually use Dominion now.

This has been discussed a bit in a few threads. It looks like since Broodlords don't actually roll their powers, they don't get Psychic Focus. So Broodlords are stuck with just The Horror. (Which is not exactly a bad power with the buff to pinning attacks!)

This doesn't make any sense.....

Since the Broodlord is the only psykers who isn't also a synapse creature, then that rule MUST be aimed at him...

Although being ML 1 means he can only cast 1 power a turn anyway. As it states, in bold, in the rule book.

Shadows goes a long way towards making powers harder to cast, if your opponent is thinking. By making Perils more likely to be fatal, you're increasing the risk they pose and encouraging your opponent to throw fewer dice into casting powers, which makes them less likely to succeed.

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:
Shadows goes a long way towards making powers harder to cast, if your opponent is thinking. By making Perils more likely to be fatal, you're increasing the risk they pose and encouraging your opponent to throw fewer dice into casting powers, which makes them less likely to succeed.

This exactly! Finally someone who thinks the way I do! It does affect people casting! It affects the amount of dice they'll be willing to throw at it, therefore decreasing the chance of it being successful. Because if they throw more dice, there's more chance of perils, which is a lot nastier now!

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:
Shadows goes a long way towards making powers harder to cast, if your opponent is thinking. By making Perils more likely to be fatal, you're increasing the risk they pose and encouraging your opponent to throw fewer dice into casting powers, which makes them less likely to succeed.

This exactly! Finally someone who thinks the way I do! It does affect people casting! It affects the amount of dice they'll be willing to throw at it, therefore decreasing the chance of it being successful. Because if they throw more dice, there's more chance of perils, which is a lot nastier now!

For the slower of us (Me ) can you give a brief rundown of how SiTW makes perils more likely? I have been looking at both ebooks side by side and can't figure it out to save my life.

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:
Shadows goes a long way towards making powers harder to cast, if your opponent is thinking. By making Perils more likely to be fatal, you're increasing the risk they pose and encouraging your opponent to throw fewer dice into casting powers, which makes them less likely to succeed.

Assuming that your opponent cares about Perils in the first place. AM can field cheap, throw away psykers who are perfectly expendable if it nets you a bloodthirster or something.

@foto69man - When you Perils you roll on a d6 table. Most entries (all?) have a Ld test involved. If you succeed, you get the 'least-bad' of 2 outcomes. If you fail, you get the worst of the 2. The -3Ld from SitW would apply to this test, making it more likely you'll get the "bad" result.

Every time you roll 2 or more 6s, you Perils. Every time you Perils, you make a Leadership test to avoid the bad part of the Perils.

A giant penalty to your Leadership means that each Perils is more likely to cause "the bad thing" to happen. That means chucking more dice at a power is drastically increasing your odds of "the bad thing" happening. Cutting back on the dice thrown to reduce the risk of a Perils also reduces the chances of a successful cast.

Shadow also allows you to corral opposing psykers since they can move before the psychic phase. Given the opportunity, a lot of players will put their psyker in a suboptimal position to get out of Shadows.

 streamdragon wrote:

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:
Shadows goes a long way towards making powers harder to cast, if your opponent is thinking. By making Perils more likely to be fatal, you're increasing the risk they pose and encouraging your opponent to throw fewer dice into casting powers, which makes them less likely to succeed.

Assuming that your opponent cares about Perils in the first place. AM can field cheap, throw away psykers who are perfectly expendable if it nets you a bloodthirster or something.

@foto69man - When you Perils you roll on a d6 table. Most entries (all?) have a Ld test involved. If you succeed, you get the 'least-bad' of 2 outcomes. If you fail, you get the worst of the 2. The -3Ld from SitW would apply to this test, making it more likely you'll get the "bad" result.

Ok I was way over thinking things then...my apologies...was looking for something more hidden lol

 foto69man wrote:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:
Shadows goes a long way towards making powers harder to cast, if your opponent is thinking. By making Perils more likely to be fatal, you're increasing the risk they pose and encouraging your opponent to throw fewer dice into casting powers, which makes them less likely to succeed.

This exactly! Finally someone who thinks the way I do! It does affect people casting! It affects the amount of dice they'll be willing to throw at it, therefore decreasing the chance of it being successful. Because if they throw more dice, there's more chance of perils, which is a lot nastier now!

For the slower of us (Me ) can you give a brief rundown of how SiTW makes perils more likely? I have been looking at both ebooks side by side and can't figure it out to save my life.

Ok. Perils is now a lot more nasty. A lot of the very nasty results rely on you failing a leadership test after suffering perils.

Now the way you suffer perils is to roll a double 6. With the new ways you manifest psychic powers you can throw as many warp charge dice at the power as you want. But this comes with a consequence. The more dice you throw, the more likely your power will manifest. BUT the more likely you have of suffering perils. To leadership 10 psykers it's a lot less frightening than to leadership 7 psykers for instance. As they are much more likely to fail their leadership test and suffer the very nasty result.

So with shadows near by, that psyker may think twice before throwing more dice at the power, and instead throw less in the hope that the power will manifest and he won't suffer perils. But in throwing less dice he is also reducing his likelihood of manifesting a power. Therefore shadows still has an impact on the ability to manifest powers....

Follow me?

Appreciate it KW, I was being a bit dense...been a long day. Was thinking I was missing/reading over a hidden/new twist to the power with 7th Ed.

 foto69man wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:
Shadows goes a long way towards making powers harder to cast, if your opponent is thinking. By making Perils more likely to be fatal, you're increasing the risk they pose and encouraging your opponent to throw fewer dice into casting powers, which makes them less likely to succeed.

Assuming that your opponent cares about Perils in the first place. AM can field cheap, throw away psykers who are perfectly expendable if it nets you a bloodthirster or something.

@foto69man - When you Perils you roll on a d6 table. Most entries (all?) have a Ld test involved. If you succeed, you get the 'least-bad' of 2 outcomes. If you fail, you get the worst of the 2. The -3Ld from SitW would apply to this test, making it more likely you'll get the "bad" result.

Ok I was way over thinking things then...my apologies...was looking for something more hidden lol

No apologies needed! SitW's focus has, to me, suffered a dramatic shift in this edition. Whether this remains a net buff or net nerf to Nids is up for debate, but with specific regards to the Psychic Phase, I think it's an overall nerf. It no longer makes powers any more difficult to cast, it just increases the chance of a punishing Perils (assuming the enemy psyker suffers Perils in the first place). Even then, the "bad" options only REALLY matters for '1's:

1: Take the Ld check, fail? Remove the model from play and blow up things around you.
2/3/4: No ld check on these
5: Take the Ld check, fail? Take a wound
6: Take the Ld check, fail? Take a wound; Pass, get bonuses!

So for half the Perils table, SitW does zilch. Nada, nil, nothin'.

For 2/3 options, passing the ld test means not taking a single wound. Only on a '1' does it make a big difference, imo.

SitW isn't all that great when it comes to Psychic anything. I guess the big deal is that it's still -3Ld for all other Ld tests (although psykers in a non-psyker unit can still use the unit's Ld for most things, so... big whoop).

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
FAQ's up, Broodlords can actually use Dominion now.

This has been discussed a bit in a few threads. It looks like since Broodlords don't actually roll their powers, they don't get Psychic Focus. So Broodlords are stuck with just The Horror. (Which is not exactly a bad power with the buff to pinning attacks!)

This doesn't make any sense.....

Since the Broodlord is the only psykers who isn't also a synapse creature, then that rule MUST be aimed at him...

Although being ML 1 means he can only cast 1 power a turn anyway. As it states, in bold, in the rule book.

he can cast only one power but he has two to choose from now. Pretty cool actually.

 ashikenshin wrote:

 Khaine's Wrath wrote:

 streamdragon wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
FAQ's up, Broodlords can actually use Dominion now.

This has been discussed a bit in a few threads. It looks like since Broodlords don't actually roll their powers, they don't get Psychic Focus. So Broodlords are stuck with just The Horror. (Which is not exactly a bad power with the buff to pinning attacks!)

This doesn't make any sense.....

Since the Broodlord is the only psykers who isn't also a synapse creature, then that rule MUST be aimed at him...

Although being ML 1 means he can only cast 1 power a turn anyway. As it states, in bold, in the rule book.

he can cast only one power but he has two to choose from now. Pretty cool actually.

Where does it say he can only cast one power?

 ductvader wrote:
I don't understand why you'd think this...

7th nerfed all walking MCs by nerfing Smash, taking away area terrain, bumping the vehicle damage table.

It nerfed Crones and Harpies by reducing vector strike, and bumping the vehicle damage table, and taking away assault, and of course smash.

It nerfed Flyrants by allowing opponents to deny catalyst, and taking away assault, the buff to the vehicle damage table, and of course smash. It did buff flyrants with unlimited witchfires, and only 1 grounding test. I would say that flyrants are a wash or maybe a minor buff overall.

It nerfed Zoeys by keeping Warp Lance Warp charge 2, meaning that we have to steal power dice from other psychers to use it. Also, it will explode 50% fewer vehicles than before. Minor buff by allowing them to cast 2 powers. Also they are a good warp charge battery. We will see more Zoeys, but they will be less effective. On the other hand, my zoey did peril in my last game. Rolled a 6 and gained a 3+ invl.

It nerfed Warriors / shrikes / raveners by upping the vehicle damage table, which is a double nerf because now there will be more S8 weapons out there, and also, it will be harder for them to pop vehicles.

It nerfed our troops with the new missions. We've got to move from objective to objective throughout the game, and are encourage to spread our troops out. Our troops are known to eat themselves or run away if they spread out.

It nerfed Venoms. Bastion has to be inside deployment zone. Venom in a box just got its range reduced a lot. No more area terrain.

It nerfed Gargoyles with the new blind rule.

The unit who got most buffed is the Broodlord. Pinned units no longer overwatch. Even if he doesn't get Dominion because he can't roll, and thus can't get the bonus for rolling from a single table, he is still a bit better, but still ridiculously overcosted.

Lets take a look at our MC wargear.
TL Devs - Nerfed against vehicles
STC - Nerfed against vehicles
HVC - Nerfed so bad it might have become useless.
Rupture Cannon - Nerfed again as if it was useful before. Now it is the most overcosted item in the entire codex.
Crushing Claws - Nerfed. Still a good chance to pen, but only wreck 1/2 as often.
Rending Claws - Lost AP:2 against vehicles. MC's still have AP:2, but Shrikes, Raveners, Genesteelers, and Warriors suffer.

Our only anti-heavy armor weapon that might still be useful is warp lance, and it is only 1/2 as good as it was.

Meanwhile, psychic powers got universally better. Except for ours which got worse by comparison, and because we only have 1 that really matters most of the time (catalyst), it means our opponents are going to throw all of their deny dice at it. SitW got worse.

The new missions are so much more fun, they are going to encourage gunlines to move a bit, but they absolutely eviscerate us. They rely on speed. We are an army seriously lacking in speed. If they hadn't taken assault away from FMCs, we might still do ok in the new missions, but as is, we are screwed.

The new vehicle pen table is such a pain for us. I was already seeing vehicle spam everywhere I looked in my local meta, and already I was struggling to pop vehicles. Now it is 2-3 times as hard to pop vehicles.

Also, it is worth noting that other MC's didn't get nerfed like ours did. How am I going to deal with 2-3 wraith knights now that I lost vector strikes, and I can't smash them to death in assault? I've got to spend points on poison for my HGaunts or something.

How about Riptides? Before I could assault with a Harpy, a Crone, and a flyrant, and smash it to death. No longer. It can't smash my crones to death as reliably, but is mainly left intact.

How about Walkers? Huge buff. How do we deal with those now? If they assault us, we are probably dead.

In every way we got worse, and other armies got better. We were mid-teir before. Why do I think we are solidly bottom tier now?

 jifel wrote:

BeeCee wrote:
Hey guys,

Trying to catch up on this thread a little bit. Why is it that the majority feels that skyblight is still the way to go? It seems like the crone got a bit worse with the vector strike nerf and did the harpy really get that much better by not being grounded as easy?

Flyrants are much better and seem to form the backbone of the tyranid offense. Crones and Harpies are worse assaulters/Vector Strikers but better gun platforms. We are highly mobile and can reach objectives easily. Crones are needed for Haywire. Plus, ground Monstrous creatures that rely on assault got horribly nerfed.

It seems like the crone took a bit of a nerf to me, i shudder at counting on BS 3 missiles vs ground targets. I definitely see the value of the flyrants, especially with thorax haywire. Sure the crone and the harpy are more sturdy but i'm ultimately not sold on the return on investment for the points and shooting a stranglethorn cannon and spore mines (but admittedly, i don't have much experience with them).

With the smash nerf i can definitely see how our other MCs took a nerf but who really really using trygons much? Mawlocs still have value for hit and run and the terror from the deep. If anything the carnifex got more valuable with a base str of 9, d3 hammer of wrath hits, etc... If anything with objective placement before choosing deployment type/choosing sides and no penalties for charging through cover didn't our foot MCs at least get a buff when it comes to actually getting in to CC?

I am challenging you for understanding here, not to be combatative. Even with the nerfs, to me it doesn't feel like a terrible time to be a bug player. I mean honestly, it's not like i am going to do worse.

Xyptc wrote:

Where does it say he can only cast one power?

the broodlord is mastery level 1, so only one spell per turn

 ashikenshin wrote:

Xyptc wrote:

Where does it say he can only cast one power?

the broodlord is mastery level 1, so only one spell per turn

That is no longer the case. You can't cast the same power more than once, but that's the only restriction.

This is more a general YMDC question but is important to our ?Mawlocs and Gargoyles, can we still deep strike from ?Ongoing Reserves, if yes why, if no why?