The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Eldar Tactica p.318 & 319)

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**pinecone77**

PrinceRaven wrote:
I don't think relying on Objective Secured Troops is going to be an effective tactic in 7th. I'm expecting maximum threat overload hyper-offensive lists are going to be the way forward.

Not disagree'in, but for me, Objective Secured Troops etc, is part of my Threat Overload. "I am about to set up house, with a big Brood of gribbles, right ova heah!"

But I have always run Troops heavy lists. So that is part of my "style".

If it won't work for you, well try something different.

I figure, if I set up Broods of Objective Secured on 4+ locations, I get to take advantage of defending terrain. And I influence my enemies actions.
In a weird way, I am using the "big shiney model" tactic, but instead of a Wraithknight, I'm using a Swarm of Rippers.

If I can distract a foe with Troop movements, then hopefully they won't see the hammer till it falls.

**barnowl**

rigeld2 wrote:
BeeCee wrote:
Against orks just keep those FMCs gliding instead of swooping, it's not like the orks have a great BS anyways. Then that nasty traktor kannon is hitting you on a 6.

Even gliding you're a FMC which is all Skyfire cares about.
You get hit as normal.

I see those trukks being taken pretty often since Skyfire hits skimmers as well... and skimmers are pretty prevalent.

Oh ouch, missed the fact Skyfire was only concerned about Unit Type.

**Unyielding Hunger**

So, I would have to check on any ruling changes on reserving army requirements, etc, but what is the general opinion on Subterranean Assault at this point? I like the idea of yet more ways to bring my bugs swarming out of the backfield.

**roxor08**

SHUPPET wrote:
Move through cover does not grant assault Grenades FYI, and while Shrikes are now scoring, only troops have Objective Secured and they are Fast Attack. But I agree with almost all of your quotes in red. Except Hive Crones. They suck lol.

Tyrannofex's are absolutely great for killing Markerlight-mules.

Yes, while technically you're correct, Move through cover "essentially" grants assault grenades in the sense that units with the rule, charging into cover don't receive the initiative penalty.

That's all the difference for our assault units. Rolling an extra die is an added bonus.

**jifel**

roxor08 wrote:
SHUPPET wrote:
Move through cover does not grant assault Grenades FYI, and while Shrikes are now scoring, only troops have Objective Secured and they are Fast Attack. But I agree with almost all of your quotes in red. Except Hive Crones. They suck lol.

Tyrannofex's are absolutely great for killing Markerlight-mules.

Yes, while technically you're correct, Move through cover "essentially" grants assault grenades in the sense that units with the rule, charging into cover don't receive the initiative penalty.

That's all the difference for our assault units. Rolling an extra die is an added bonus.

Move through cover removes the -2 to assault penalty, it doesn't remove the "strike at I1" penalty

**SHUPPET**

It even specifically says it in the entry lol

**notbriang**

jifel wrote:
roxor08 wrote:
SHUPPET wrote:
Move through cover does not grant assault Grenades FYI, and while Shrikes are now scoring, only troops have Objective Secured and they are Fast Attack. But I agree with almost all of your quotes in red. Except Hive Crones. They suck lol.

Tyrannofex's are absolutely great for killing Markerlight-mules.

Yes, while technically you're correct, Move through cover "essentially" grants assault grenades in the sense that units with the rule, charging into cover don't receive the initiative penalty.

That's all the difference for our assault units. Rolling an extra die is an added bonus.

Move through cover removes the -2 to assault penalty, it doesn't remove the "strike at I1" penalty

The rules are written below to quell any idea of "technically" or "essentially" when a response comes down. I've seen far too many "lol move through cover gives assault grenades nao!!" posts on the back of "technically" and "essentially". In fact, if the word "technically" or "essentially" ever comes in at any point in your argument, you should probably stop talking.

These are the rules - 7th Edition has been remarkable in that the majority of the rules are crystal clear and in plain language. There is no interpretation required, only comprehension.

Can this get back to discussion of the strengths of Tyranids and Unit strategies instead of turning into a YMDC nightmare?

TL;DR - Move Through Cover does not cover any part of the rules that cover Charging Through Difficult Terrain and Initiative penalty, it does not specify in any place that it negates the penalty to Initiative.

Specifically

Move Through Cover
A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule rolls an extra D6 when rolling to move through difficult terrain and is not slowed by charging through difficult terrain. In most circumstances, this will mean that, when moving, the unit rolls 3D6 and picks the highest roll. Furthermore, a model with the Move Through Cover special rule automatically passes Dangerous Terrain tests.

Assault Phase: Charging Through Difficult Terrain

Bold Part I
If, when charging, one or more models have to move through difficult terrain in order to reach the enemy by the shortest possible route, the entire unit must subtract 2 from its dice roll total when determining its charge range.

Bold Part II
if at least one model in the charging unit moved through difficult terrain as part of its charge move, all of the unit’s models must attack at Initiative step 1

**SHUPPET**

Anyway, off the subject of rules debates and back to Tyranid Strategy - I first posted this in the Tyranid Allies thread, but I haven't seen it mentioned in here yet so I think I'll share it:

SHUPPET wrote:
Taking Dark Eldar allies allows you to unleash Crucible of Malediction on Psykers forcing all models within 3D6 (average 10-11") to "pass a leadership test or be removed from play as they go stark raving mad. No saves of any kind are allowed."

This could be kind of badass coupled with SitW and maybe Deathleapers ability on say, AN INVISIBLE BELAKOR, or farseer, or Fateweaver, or anything lame. As well as giving hell to GK and Daemon summoners, or anything with Psykers whatsoever.

The best delivery for this is on a Haemonculi in a deepstriking Venom. 160 points gets you a Haemonculi, a squad of Wracks as troops to unlock the Venom, and completely satisifies the Allied Detachment FOC.

Pretty damn cheap for the utility/cover/protection-against-dicks it adds, just build the rest of the list how you normally would. There is some other cool utility items he can take and also use in the same turn, including a template that ignores wound allocations and also removes models based on an individual toughness test for each model beneath the template, no saves allowed (15 pts), which is absolutely awesome and probably 100% worth it as well. 2++ rerollable crowd will not like.

This is an ally that is NOT gimmicky at all. Chances are it's going to be worth its points regardless of whether they have psykers or not. That Shattershard will absolutely ace things in a T3 meta. Taking the Haemonculi in a unit of 9 Warriors instead in a Raider brings the entirety of the allied detachment up to 225 pts but allows you to immediately threaten anything not threatened by toughness tests, e.g. a Riptide is getting hit with 19 TL poison shots and a S8 AP2 Lance. Pretty fun.

Torment Grenade Launchers is a Raider upgrade that also adds another -1 LD modifier, but only with 6" range off the Vehicle, so no where near as reliable as scatterless Lictor bubbles or Shadow in The Warp - however it is only 5 measly pts so still worth a mention, and worth taking if you pick a Raider.

This is cheap as hell and can RUIN a lot of competitive lists - Deathleaper Brood not mandatory at all (although Deathleaper himself probably is - 130pts for a great unit, schmeh) I personally like the DL Assassin Brood and the LD bubble is great for this. Also allows you to still run 2 Flyrants.

**Megamanrocks**

Since we are having the whole "move through cover" talk on Nids, especially in regards to assault grenades, let me slide in one noobish question real quick, then be done with the topic.

Ravengers. Beasts.

Are beasts I1 when charging through terrain? Were they I1 last edition when doing so?

After that, lets move onto something more productive.

**tetrisphreak**

Megamanrocks wrote:
Since we are having the whole "move through cover" talk on Nids, especially in regards to assault grenades, let me slide in one noobish question real quick, then be done with the topic.

Ravengers. Beasts.

Are beasts I1 when charging through terrain? Were they I1 last edition when doing so?

After that, lets move onto something more productive.

Yes. All units that assault through difficult terrain strike at I1 unless:

They have frag grenades; or
The unit charged was locked in cc from a previous turn; or
The unit charged had gone to ground.

**roxor08**

jifel wrote:
roxor08 wrote:
SHUPPET wrote:
Move through cover does not grant assault Grenades FYI, and while Shrikes are now scoring, only troops have Objective Secured and they are Fast Attack. But I agree with almost all of your quotes in red. Except Hive Crones. They suck lol.

Tyrannofex's are absolutely great for killing Markerlight-mules.

Yes, while technically you're correct, Move through cover "essentially" grants assault grenades in the sense that units with the rule, charging into cover don't receive the initiative penalty.

That's all the difference for our assault units. Rolling an extra die is an added bonus.

Move through cover removes the -2 to assault penalty, it doesn't remove the "strike at I1" penalty

Ahhhh, I was made a mistake in my reading....if you care to, I explain below where I went wrong.

SHUPPET wrote:It even specifically says it in the entry lol

Thanks for being so helpful and while attempting to clarify where my interpretation was false?

notbriang wrote:
jifel wrote:
roxor08 wrote:
SHUPPET wrote:
Move through cover does not grant assault Grenades FYI, and while Shrikes are now scoring, only troops have Objective Secured and they are Fast Attack. But I agree with almost all of your quotes in red. Except Hive Crones. They suck lol.

Tyrannofex's are absolutely great for killing Markerlight-mules.

Yes, while technically you're correct, Move through cover "essentially" grants assault grenades in the sense that units with the rule, charging into cover don't receive the initiative penalty.

That's all the difference for our assault units. Rolling an extra die is an added bonus.

Move through cover removes the -2 to assault penalty, it doesn't remove the "strike at I1" penalty

The rules are written below to quell any idea of "technically" or "essentially" when a response comes down. I've seen far too many "lol move through cover gives assault grenades nao!!" posts on the back of "technically" and "essentially". In fact, if the word "technically" or "essentially" ever comes in at any point in your argument, you should probably stop talking.

These are the rules - 7th Edition has been remarkable in that the majority of the rules are crystal clear and in plain language. There is no interpretation required, only comprehension.

Can this get back to discussion of the strengths of Tyranids and Unit strategies instead of turning into a YMDC nightmare?

TL;DR - Move Through Cover does not cover any part of the rules that cover Charging Through Difficult Terrain and Initiative penalty, it does not specify in any place that it negates the penalty to Initiative.

Specifically

Move Through Cover
A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule rolls an extra D6 when rolling to move through difficult terrain and is not slowed by charging through difficult terrain. In most circumstances, this will mean that, when moving, the unit rolls 3D6 and picks the highest roll. Furthermore, a model with the Move Through Cover special rule automatically passes Dangerous Terrain tests.

Assault Phase: Charging Through Difficult Terrain

Bold Part I
If, when charging, one or more models have to move through difficult terrain in order to reach the enemy by the shortest possible route, the entire unit must subtract 2 from its dice roll total when determining its charge range.

Bold Part II
if at least one model in the charging unit moved through difficult terrain as part of its charge move, all of the unit’s models must attack at Initiative step 1

**SHUPPET**

roxor08 wrote:
SHUPPET wrote:It even specifically says it in the entry lol

Thanks for being so helpful and while attempting to clarify where my interpretation was false?

Not a problem!

roxor08 wrote:

I don't really get what the hostility is when there's a simple misinterpretation of a rule. Clearly, I was wrong. I didn't intend there a "rules debate" to ensue. I believe that I quoted SHUPPET twice regarding this rule, definitely not enough to derail a thread. As a Tyranid player, I feel that it shouldn't be frowned up to to clarify a question (whether I'm wrong or right) IN THE TYRANID STRATEGY THREAD THAT'S 125 PAGES LONG.

well, that's where you'd be wrong. Every single page up to this point has been of the utmost strategic importance. Be more careful next time. You disturbed a very delicate balance of content and strategy.

All jokes aside now, I think the reason people get hostile when people misquote a rule like that, is because often this person is trying to push some cheesy interpretation of the rules forward by leaping a few wording hurdles and not always being fully logical, and as such are not open to explanations of why they are wrong and quickly devolve a good discussion thread into a one-sided selfish debate of how their loose interpretation of the rules is flawed, with the offending party often refusing to listen to reason for his own benefit. Because of this, people were quick to shutdown your rules error as it appeared to me, and likely others, that that's where this was heading. No fault of your own good sir, you seemed quite open to the logical explanation, just so many who have tread before you were not.

I think the worst one of these I saw was a guy who claimed any mention of the word Eldar in his codex, such as army specific rules, also applied to his Dark Eldar allies because they too fell under the classification of "Eldar", being a form of Eldar themselves. When pointed out that this interpretation means he couldn't apply it to his Warwalkers and Vehicles, he claimed that they fell under Eldar in a different category because they were part of the "Eldar" codex. This is the extent people will go to, even to make an already broken combo more powerful.

**disdamn**

I'm new to Tyranids, but I see a lot people saying Trygons and Trygon Primes are bad choices. I play with a Trygon Prime and haven't seen any problems with it. It's usually earned back it's points in enemy kills, and I did like the DS Shadows in the Warp into enemy psychers. That's not so much an advantage now though.

I'm curious why the consensus that Trygons and Try Primes are bad choices?

**SHUPPET**

Because fast Shadows is easy, Flyrants get there even quicker. The main reason they suck is even if Mawloc had no entry blast, a Trygon Prime is NOT 100 pts stronger than it.

For the price of two Trygons you can almost get 3 Mawlocs. They are seriously overcosted, the only real benefit is the Weapon Skill as you make up for the attack stat by having an extra model. They also used to be great for 4 smash attacks on the charge and re-rolls to 1s in combat, no loner. Yet there price was not changed to reflect it. All things considered, they suck. They are Pyrovore tier. In fact Pyrovores are better as they don't eat 200 of your points.

**Zach**

^ agreed. Trygon is still my favorite model, but there is no joy in taking him.

I played a 2000pt game yesterday against an Eldar list comprised of

Eldrad
4 Wave Serpents w/Dire avengers, Fire Dragons loaded
1 Falcon (!) w/Pulse Laser and Missiles
Nightspinner
5x2 Jetbikes w/Warlock attached to each
2x Guardian blobs w/Brightlance and Warlocks

I had a hastily thrown together list of

Flyrant w/Reaper and Adrenal Glands
Zoanthrope
Venomthrope
2x Carnifex w/Adrenal glands
Tervigon
30 Gants
Hierophant (No upgrades)

Playing Purge the Alien, I felt doomed from the start as I expected my opponent to simply stay away and shoot the entire game. But alas, he got bold and I was able to multi charge several tanks with the Hierophant, destroying them very reliably (of course). My Flyrant never swooped the entire game and became responsible for cutting down Eldrad attached to a Dire Avenger blob as well as another tank, being S8 on the charge w/6 attacks.

Invisibility is hard to deal with, but I did a great job denying the witch. Two of his Warlocks melted their brains with perils. Hierophant ended the game with 1 wound left, having lost his Venomthrope cover early on. I won, with both sides mostly wiped out. I still had a Flyrant and Hierophant, as well as a small group of Gants locked in combat with Fire Dragons. He had the Dragons and a small group of Guardians left alive.

I will say that this is the game where I finally stopped having fun with 40k. I dont mean that Im quitting, just that I've been burnt out with the Tyranid Codex followed by 7th, kind of on bs overload, so Im happily taking a break for a few weeks so I can come back fresh!

**roxor08**

SHUPPET wrote:
roxor08 wrote:
SHUPPET wrote:It even specifically says it in the entry lol

Thanks for being so helpful and while attempting to clarify where my interpretation was false?

Not a problem!

roxor08 wrote:

I don't really get what the hostility is when there's a simple misinterpretation of a rule. Clearly, I was wrong. I didn't intend there a "rules debate" to ensue. I believe that I quoted SHUPPET twice regarding this rule, definitely not enough to derail a thread. As a Tyranid player, I feel that it shouldn't be frowned up to to clarify a question (whether I'm wrong or right) IN THE TYRANID STRATEGY THREAD THAT'S 125 PAGES LONG.

well, that's where you'd be wrong. Every single page up to this point has been of the utmost strategic importance. Be more careful next time. You disturbed a very delicate balance of content and strategy.

All jokes aside now, I think the reason people get hostile when people misquote a rule like that, is because often this person is trying to push some cheesy interpretation of the rules forward by leaping a few wording hurdles and not always being fully logical, and as such are not open to explanations of why they are wrong and quickly devolve a good discussion thread into a one-sided selfish debate of how their loose interpretation of the rules is flawed, with the offending party often refusing to listen to reason for his own benefit. Because of this, people were quick to shutdown your rules error as it appeared to me, and likely others, that that's where this was heading. No fault of your own good sir, you seemed quite open to the logical explanation, just so many who have tread before you were not.

I think the worst one of these I saw was a guy who claimed any mention of the word Eldar in his codex, such as army specific rules, also applied to his Dark Eldar allies because they too fell under the classification of "Eldar", being a form of Eldar themselves. When pointed out that this interpretation means he couldn't apply it to his Warwalkers and Vehicles, he claimed that they fell under Eldar in a different category because they were part of the "Eldar" codex. This is the extent people will go to, even to make an already broken combo more powerful.

Thank you for helping me understand SHUPPET! I had never intended to take advantage of the rule, and as many of our fellow Nid players, I long for my Genestealers to be threatening again. I think my underlying issue with reading that rule was that I was so excited for Genestealers to be half decent again.....but alas.....I was wrong. The other reason I was so excited was because I would like to start perfecting my tournament list for a tournament several months away. Here's what it looked like (and you can see why I got over excited about move through cover):

Spoiler:

The whole concept behind this list is to provide psychic support while playing the psychic power "poker game". In theory, by having Zoanthropes to act as warp charge batteries, the Flrant's should be able to cast important powers halfway reliably. If the opponent makes the mistake in attempting to deny too many of these, I then can use the Broodlords to cast The Horror on front line units. The reason I was so excited about my understanding of Move through Cover was that I could cast The Horror on one unit, then charge another without sacrificing too much.

This concept remains relatively unchanged, however. I still can follow through with most of the idea, but I'd need to charge the units that fail The Horror. Additionally, the synergy of SitW and The Horror against psychic units can be utterly disastrous since most psykers have LD10 unless they are also immune to being pinned.

Likewise, I can attempt to cast The Horror first, before important psychic powers like Catalyst, Onslaught, and psychic scream and if the opponent attempts to dispel The Horror, there's an increased chance that I'll succeed with the others.

Lastly, as I understand it, a Broodlord also gains Dominion now-a-days. This can be clutch if you infiltrate your unit into a ruin at about the 1/2 point. If they get shot at, feel free to go to ground for a 2+ cover save. The next psychic phase, simply cast Dominion to become fearless and hop back up and act normally. With Fleet and Move through Cover, if your opponent is unsuspecting, you can catch him with his pants down...so to speak.

What do you think?

**SHUPPET**

For starters, completely understandable that you wanted Genestealers to work. I think there is not a Tyranid player to pick up the dice who doesn't love Genestealers.

The broodlord strategy is definitely very cool. Now we may not have frags, but the good thing is, we have something situationally better - more Pinning than any other army, pinning which has just been buffed in 7th to not only do the usual "force snapshots next turn + grant frag grenades to any models charging the unit" but it also now denies overwatch (which can be big). Unfortunately does not affect Fearless units (Space Marines can be pinned however as their rule is different).

Combined with the fact that Living Artillery is (IMO) an auto-take no matter how I build, it isn't too hard to spam Pinning - just for reference, the formation allows you to take a Warrior squad with Cannon + Exocrine + 3man Biovore squad outside of the FOC, and grants them all TWIN-LINKED and PINNING to any blasts weapons while in Synapse range of the Warriors. This is amazing. Take 2 of these + Broodlords, you will be able to pin anything not Fearless, and have frags when you assault with stealers. Add in our LD manipulating abilities like Shadow in the Warp (only Psykers), Deathleaper (only indepent characters, quite possibly means they are Fearless tho), and his Assassins Brood (5 individual Lictors each with a -1 LD bubble, to ANYTHING), and you will force a lot of pins. There is a pretty sizeable investment required to make Stealers work though, so after this just take a lot of them lol. Infiltrating 1 or two with the Broodlord trick works. Running them up behind a Termagant screen with a Venom behind them probably a good option for the rest. Take something to deal with Heavy Armor (we don't have much) Carnifexe's and eGrubs Flyrants always good.

Keep in mind, this is my opinion on how to make 'Stealers work. Everyone else will probably just tell you they suck. They really aren't that bad a combat unit though, its just getting them there and letting them use that initiative. We have all the tools for it, just takes a pretty focused list.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would like to see how it goes vs competitive Tau, with 6 pinning large blasts and a few Powers to keep the big shooters pinned and forced to fire snapshots until the tide of infiltrating Genestealers gets there turn 2 and starts wreaking havoc. WITH their full Initiative too.

**KillerWabbit**

I feel ya, man. Genestealers are my fave unit, and 6th-7th ed. has made them the laughingstock of 40K. SADFACE.

**Xyptc**

SHUPPET wrote:
For starters, completely understandable that you wanted Genestealers to work. I think there is not a Tyranid player to pick up the dice who doesn't love Genestealers.

The broodlord strategy is definitely very cool. Now we may not have frags, but the good thing is, we have something situationally better - more Pinning than any other army, pinning which has just been buffed in 7th to not only do the usual "force snapshots next turn + grant frag grenades to any models charging the unit" but it also now denies overwatch (which can be big). Unfortunately does not affect Fearless units (Space Marines can be pinned however as their rule is different).

Combined with the fact that Living Artillery is (IMO) an auto-take no matter how I build, it isn't too hard to spam Pinning - just for reference, the formation allows you to take a Warrior squad with Cannon + Exocrine + 3man Biovore squad outside of the FOC, and grants them all TWIN-LINKED and PINNING to any blasts weapons while in Synapse range of the Warriors. This is amazing. Take 2 of these + Broodlords, you will be able to pin anything not Fearless, and have frags when you assault with stealers. Add in our LD manipulating abilities like Shadow in the Warp (only Psykers), Deathleaper (only indepent characters, quite possibly means they are Fearless tho), and his Assassins Brood (5 individual Lictors each with a -1 LD bubble, to ANYTHING), and you will force a lot of pins. There is a pretty sizeable investment required to make Stealers work though, so after this just take a lot of them lol. Infiltrating 1 or two with the Broodlord trick works. Running them up behind a Termagant screen with a Venom behind them probably a good option for the rest. Take something to deal with Heavy Armor (we don't have much) Carnifexe's and eGrubs Flyrants always good.

Keep in mind, this is my opinion on how to make 'Stealers work. Everyone else will probably just tell you they suck. They really aren't that bad a combat unit though, its just getting them there and letting them use that initiative. We have all the tools for it, just takes a pretty focused list.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would like to see how it goes vs competitive Tau, with 6 pinning large blasts and a few Powers to keep the big shooters pinned and forced to fire snapshots until the tide of infiltrating Genestealers gets there turn 2 and starts wreaking havoc. WITH their full Initiative too.

This should work pretty well all things considered, and it will be so unconventional that the surprise factor will work to your advantage.

Two minimum-sized squads of Warriors, also with Barbed Stranglers for troops, couple of flying Tyrants for general MVP work, and you're good to go.

**SHUPPET**

Yeah there is a lot of Synergy. We won't have the points to do it all, that was just a general outline of units to build with. Flyrants are much less a staple in this list as the only thing with Instinctive Behaviour is the Exocrine and Biovores, who are being babysat by a squad of Warriors anyway. You literally need Synapse nowhere else. If you want a fast Shadow in the warp, a couple of squads of Shrikes are cheaper than even a single Flyrants, bring cheap Stranglethorns, and help out far more in the assault saturation with Stealers, and assault benefit largely from pinning. Mobile eGrubs is probably the main reason to take Flyrants, but I think the points made for in Dakkafex's will be better. Points are really tight on a list like this, Stealers themselves are V expensive.

I'll probably do something like this next chance I get:

Deathleaper

Venomthrope

10x Genestealers
10x Genestealers
10x Genestealers
10x Genestealers
10x Genestealers
30x Termagants

3x Shrike, Barbed Strangler
3x Shrike, Barbed Strangler

Carnifex, TL-Devs
Carnifex, TL-Devs

Living Artillery Formation:

3x Tyranid Warriors, Venom Cannon
3x Biovores
Exocrine

1845 pts

That's 50 Stealers, and 5 pinning large blasts. Many different ways to do it though I guess, I just like that safety net that 2 Fexes bring. Flyrants work, 2x Living Artillery Formations work, theres no real precedent for this kind of thing lol.

Also you can still do the Infiltrate + GtG Stealer trick for 4+ cover up to over 24" from your DZ, the Shrikes will be in Synapse range turn 1.

**barnowl**

SHUPPET wrote:
Yeah there is a lot of Synergy. We won't have the points to do it all, that was just a general outline of units to build with. Flyrants are much less a staple in this list as the only thing with Instinctive Behaviour is the Exocrine and Biovores, who are being babysat by a squad of Warriors anyway. You literally need Synapse nowhere else. If you want a fast Shadow in the warp, a couple of squads of Shrikes are cheaper than even a single Flyrants, bring cheap Stranglethorns, and help out far more in the assault saturation with Stealers, and assault benefit largely from pinning. Mobile eGrubs is probably the main reason to take Flyrants, but I think the points made for in Dakkafex's will be better. Points are really tight on a list like this, Stealers themselves are V expensive.

I'll probably do something like this next chance I get:

Deathleaper

Venomthrope

10x Genestealers
10x Genestealers
10x Genestealers
10x Genestealers
10x Genestealers
30x Termagants

3x Shrike, Barbed Strangler
3x Shrike, Barbed Strangler

Carnifex, TL-Devs
Carnifex, TL-Devs

Living Artillery Formation:

3x Tyranid Warriors, Venom Cannon
3x Biovores
Exocrine

1845 pts

That's 50 Stealers, and 5 pinning large blasts. Many different ways to do it though I guess, I just like that safety net that 2 Fexes bring. Flyrants work, 2x Living Artillery Formations work, theres no real precedent for this kind of thing lol.

Also you can still do the Infiltrate + GtG Stealer trick for 4+ cover up to over 24" from your DZ, the Shrikes will be in Synapse range turn 1.

I would rip all the stealers out of the main list and move them in to 1 or 2 Manufactorum stealers formations. Split the guants in to 15 brood. Other than that, Iike the list. Might even run a mix of Hunting pack and Manufactorum to get a broodlord in the mix. Between the 2 Formations you get some nice buffs for the broods at now cost.

**tag8833**

I have a very, very low opinion of Genesteelers. They are so outrageously overcosted. If you want assaulty things you should be looking at Raveners, Shrikes or Hormagaunts.

They need 2 wounds or a 40% points reduction to be viable.

**bodazoka**

tag8833 wrote:
I have a very, very low opinion of Genesteelers. They are so outrageously overcosted. If you want assaulty things you should be looking at Raveners, Shrikes or Hormagaunts.

They need 2 wounds or a 40% points reduction to be viable.

I am happy for them to be priced as they are, I just want them to either A) be able to make combat with little casualties or B) be so hard hitting that even if only 4-5 of them survive they can wipe out a 10 strong TAC squad reliably.

They really should be able to assault out of hiding... if Anything else in the game should be able to do this Stealers are it!

**SHUPPET**

Last dex they could

**roxor08**

SHUPPET wrote:Yeah there is a lot of Synergy. We won't have the points to do it all, that was just a general outline of units to build with. Flyrants are much less a staple in this list as the only thing with Instinctive Behaviour is the Exocrine and Biovores, who are being babysat by a squad of Warriors anyway. You literally need Synapse nowhere else. If you want a fast Shadow in the warp, a couple of squads of Shrikes are cheaper than even a single Flyrants, bring cheap Stranglethorns, and help out far more in the assault saturation with Stealers, and assault benefit largely from pinning. Mobile eGrubs is probably the main reason to take Flyrants, but I think the points made for in Dakkafex's will be better. Points are really tight on a list like this, Stealers themselves are V expensive.

I'll probably do something like this next chance I get:

Deathleaper

Venomthrope

10x Genestealers
10x Genestealers
10x Genestealers
10x Genestealers
10x Genestealers
30x Termagants

3x Shrike, Barbed Strangler
3x Shrike, Barbed Strangler

Carnifex, TL-Devs
Carnifex, TL-Devs

Living Artillery Formation:

3x Tyranid Warriors, Venom Cannon
3x Biovores
Exocrine

1845 pts

That's 50 Stealers, and 5 pinning large blasts. Many different ways to do it though I guess, I just like that safety net that 2 Fexes bring. Flyrants work, 2x Living Artillery Formations work, theres no real precedent for this kind of thing lol.

Also you can still do the Infiltrate + GtG Stealer trick for 4+ cover up to over 24" from your DZ, the Shrikes will be in Synapse range turn 1.

Looks super fun. Definitely would throw off opponents expecting the Skyblight builds that have been deemed "more competitive".

barnowl wrote:

Spoiler:

SHUPPET wrote:
Yeah there is a lot of Synergy. We won't have the points to do it all, that was just a general outline of units to build with. Flyrants are much less a staple in this list as the only thing with Instinctive Behaviour is the Exocrine and Biovores, who are being babysat by a squad of Warriors anyway. You literally need Synapse nowhere else. If you want a fast Shadow in the warp, a couple of squads of Shrikes are cheaper than even a single Flyrants, bring cheap Stranglethorns, and help out far more in the assault saturation with Stealers, and assault benefit largely from pinning. Mobile eGrubs is probably the main reason to take Flyrants, but I think the points made for in Dakkafex's will be better. Points are really tight on a list like this, Stealers themselves are V expensive.

I'll probably do something like this next chance I get:

Deathleaper

Venomthrope

10x Genestealers
10x Genestealers
10x Genestealers
10x Genestealers
10x Genestealers
30x Termagants

3x Shrike, Barbed Strangler
3x Shrike, Barbed Strangler

Carnifex, TL-Devs
Carnifex, TL-Devs

Living Artillery Formation:

3x Tyranid Warriors, Venom Cannon
3x Biovores
Exocrine

1845 pts

That's 50 Stealers, and 5 pinning large blasts. Many different ways to do it though I guess, I just like that safety net that 2 Fexes bring. Flyrants work, 2x Living Artillery Formations work, theres no real precedent for this kind of thing lol.

Also you can still do the Infiltrate + GtG Stealer trick for 4+ cover up to over 24" from your DZ, the Shrikes will be in Synapse range turn 1.

I would rip all the stealers out of the main list and move them in to 1 or 2 Manufactorum stealers formations. Split the guants in to 15 brood. Other than that, Iike the list. Might even run a mix of Hunting pack and Manufactorum to get a broodlord in the mix. Between the 2 Formations you get some nice buffs for the broods at now cost.

The largest issue with doing that is if you're planning on playing tournaments (to each their own) that will only allow armies with two sources for your detachments or if you want to play strictly Battle-Forged: You don't have a Primary detachment for your force. Objective Secured is so crucial this edition you should take it when you can. By taking multiple formations in the way of Living artillery node and Manufactorum stealer formations you give up objective secured....

SHUPPET wrote:Last dex they could

Wait do you mean those Ymgarl ones that EVERYONE played with previously?**Satire** If so, those were exactly what Genestealers should be in the first place.....I would gladly pay 23 ppm for a unit that can assault from reserves, let alone the ability to morph.....

**SHUPPET**

Yeah :( Ymgarls were the bomb.

The Stealer formation are definitely good, but as said - I believe most most tourneys allow only 1 primary, 1 ally, and 1 formation. This means you are losing pinning for slightly better genestealers, who then have to strike last against enemies in terrain.

3x Bivores with twin-linked Pinning Ignore Cover Blasts will really open you up some targets. Remember not everything is going to be in area terrain, hopefully 5 Pinning Blasts is enough, only need to get 1 pin off on a unit you are going to assault that are in cover. Hopefully thats enough pinning. Playtesting will tell.

Comparing Genestealers to a similar CC unit: Chaos Space Marines. Here is the tradeoff.

Mark of Slaanesh CSM at 15 ppm. 3 attacks on the charge, I5, 3+ save, Boltpistol Assault Gun. Can drop that point of iniative from Mark of Slaanesh for a Mark of Khorne, giving it 4 attacks on the charge, same price. Can take transports. Comes naturally with assault grenades. Champ can take a Powerfist.

Genestealers at 14 ppm
3 attacks on the charge, I6, 4+ save, no guns, Rending on CC attacks, Infiltrate. Can take Venomthrope cover saves. Can manipulate Go to Ground for even bigger cover saves.

Now, that may make them read like Genestealers are just worse vanilla CSM, but when you actually apply how these differences play out, I think it puts us in front as a dedicated assault unit. Even vs properly kitted combat units (Spwan and Bikers) they are paying much extra to be dedicated to combat, we match their skill in numbers. I think the key to making 'Stealers work is playing off our advantages. Making sure they always have a cover save is key. Abusing GtG and Venomthrope is also crucial when its possible (Venomthrope probably not possible if Infiltrating) fly Shrikes into range during movement phase to get them back up, then move the Stealers back out of Synapse, GtG again. Doing this it's very possible to give them a 2+ cover save, in wide open ground. Marines have a 3+ naturally, but when you take into account how often they get to take these saves... to put in another light Tau has less "ignore cover" than it does AP2 for example. Infiltrate can make up for no Rhinos. It guarantees a second turn assault, which is good vs Gunlines, who are the biggest threat to this style of army. Oh and its free

10 Genestealers with Rending actually puts out 20% more AP2 wounds than 1 sergeant with a Fist does in a 10 man squad (with a Mark of Khorne its exactly the same amount) - the downside to this is of course that you can't use a hidden fist tactic - the plus side is, that we are the freaking swarm and we don't care about that, kill 1 of us and the rest all still have rending. We also can't lose our "powerfist" to a hostile challenge. Also, its free

Of course, without I6, they are just no good. They lose the cover save in combat, and need to be striking first to make up for it. Each Genestealer that dies before making its attacks is a bad thing. You also don't want to be GETTING assaulted, and if you do have to leave yourself in a position where you could get assaulted, try to keep a Venomthrope near, he guarantees your I6 and takes away their charge attack bonus. More than 1 Venomthrope per list is probably a good thing here. Basically, make sure you get that Initiative when it is relevant - if you can't get a pin on your main target, and it's easier to just lock yourself in combat with something else, just do that, at least you don't get tore up for nothing (hopefully). Throwing yourself into their biggest threat, at Initiative 1, when you have an I6, is probably a bad idea. Weaker willed opponents (Tau players

) may even feel forced to join the assault to help out their unit, giving you your I6, and letting you subsequently swarm them with Genestealers (if they do this you'll probably win). Relying on playmistakes is never a good thing of course, but when it works ~ In general you just have to pick and choose targets. Throwing Termagants in to tarpit something a turn before you strike with Stealers is also a good idea. I think Genestealers are a HARD unit to use right, and require a dedicated army list ("Cult" if you will

) which is why people haven't had much luck with them, but they are not necessarily bad as those people think. I think they could actually be quite good, spammed.

Sorry about the in depth wall of maybe less than relevant info to some. This is just me sort of sharing my thought process on making Stealers work, and what sort of power level to expect from them while playing them. As the topic seems to have interested a couple of people.

**Xyptc**

SHUPPET wrote:
Yeah :( Ymgarls were the bomb.

The Stealer formation are definitely good, but as said - I believe most most tourneys allow only 1 primary, 1 ally, and 1 formation. This means you are losing pinning for slightly better genestealers, who then have to strike last against enemies in terrain.

3x Bivores with twin-linked Pinning Ignore Cover Blasts will really open you up some targets. Remember not everything is going to be in area terrain, hopefully 5 Pinning Blasts is enough, only need to get 1 pin off on a unit you are going to assault that are in cover. Hopefully thats enough pinning. Playtesting will tell.

Comparing Genestealers to a similar CC unit: Chaos Space Marines. Here is the tradeoff.

Mark of Slaanesh CSM at 15 ppm. 3 attacks on the charge, I5, 3+ save, Boltpistol Assault Gun. Can drop that point of iniative from Mark of Slaanesh for a Mark of Khorne, giving it 4 attacks on the charge, same price. Can take transports. Comes naturally with assault grenades. Champ can take a Powerfist.

Genestealers at 14 ppm
3 attacks on the charge, I6, 4+ save, no guns, Rending on CC attacks, Infiltrate. Can take Venomthrope cover saves. Can manipulate Go to Ground for even bigger cover saves.

Now, that may make them read like Genestealers are just worse vanilla CSM, but when you actually apply how these differences play out, I think it puts us in front as a dedicated assault unit. Even vs properly kitted combat units (Spwan and Bikers) they are paying much extra to be dedicated to combat, we match their skill in numbers. I think the key to making 'Stealers work is playing off our advantages. Making sure they always have a cover save is key. Abusing GtG and Venomthrope is also crucial when its possible (Venomthrope probably not possible if Infiltrating) fly Shrikes into range during movement phase to get them back up, then move the Stealers back out of Synapse, GtG again. Doing this it's very possible to give them a 2+ cover save, in wide open ground. Marines have a 3+ naturally, but when you take into account how often they get to take these saves... to put in another light Tau has less "ignore cover" than it does AP2 for example. Infiltrate can make up for no Rhinos. It guarantees a second turn assault, which is good vs Gunlines, who are the biggest threat to this style of army. Oh and its free 10 Genestealers with Rending actually puts out 20% more AP2 wounds than 1 sergeant with a Fist does in a 10 man squad (with a Mark of Khorne its exactly the same amount) - the downside to this is of course that you can't use a hidden fist tactic - the plus side is, that we are the freaking swarm and we don't care about that, kill 1 of us and the rest all still have rending. We also can't lose our "powerfist" to a hostile challenge. Also, its free

Of course, without I6, they are just no good. They lose the cover save in combat, and need to be striking first to make up for it. Each Genestealer that dies before making its attacks is a bad thing. You also don't want to be GETTING assaulted, and if you do have to leave yourself in a position where you could get assaulted, try to keep a Venomthrope near, he guarantees your I6 and takes away their charge attack bonus. More than 1 Venomthrope per list is probably a good thing here. Basically, make sure you get that Initiative when it is relevant - if you can't get a pin on your main target, and it's easier to just lock yourself in combat with something else, just do that, at least you don't get tore up for nothing (hopefully). Throwing yourself into their biggest threat, at Initiative 1, when you have an I6, is probably a bad idea. Weaker willed opponents (Tau players ) may even feel forced to join the assault to help out their unit, giving you your I6, and letting you subsequently swarm them with Genestealers (if they do this you'll probably win). Relying on playmistakes is never a good thing of course, but when it works ~ In general you just have to pick and choose targets. Throwing Termagants in to tarpit something a turn before you strike with Stealers is also a good idea. I think Genestealers are a HARD unit to use right, and require a dedicated army list ("Cult" if you will ) which is why people haven't had much luck with them, but they are not necessarily bad as those people think. I think they could actually be quite good, spammed.

Sorry about the in depth wall of maybe less than relevant info to some. This is just me sort of sharing my thought process on making Stealers work, and what sort of power level to expect from them while playing them. As the topic seems to have interested a couple of people.

There is also the Dominion-Broodlord strategy with Genestealers too, if your local group allows Broodlords to access Dominion. Even more fun if your group goes with the "cast as many powers as you have" interpretation of the pstchic rules as well, because then you can throw The Horror into the mix from your Broodlord before you assault.

**barnowl**

roxor08 wrote:
[

barnowl wrote:

I would rip all the stealers out of the main list and move them in to 1 or 2 Manufactorum stealers formations. Split the guants in to 15 brood. Other than that, Iike the list. Might even run a mix of Hunting pack and Manufactorum to get a broodlord in the mix. Between the 2 Formations you get some nice buffs for the broods at now cost.

The largest issue with doing that is if you're planning on playing tournaments (to each their own) that will only allow armies with two sources for your detachments or if you want to play strictly Battle-Forged: You don't have a Primary detachment for your force. Objective Secured is so crucial this edition you should take it when you can. By taking multiple formations in the way of Living artillery node and Manufactorum stealer formations you give up objective secured....

What I suggested is still battleforged, does have a primary(CAD), and does have OS Termies. Ture I am using 2 codex supplements. But as an FYI, you are not requried to use the CAD for Battleforged, and any Detachment or Fromation can be your Primary.

**roxor08**

The trouble when including the BL is that it nearly doubles the base cost of a unit of Genestealers, but it doesn't double the survivability or damage output.
When bringing a BL, you typically do so in order to do 1 of a few things:
1) To challenge out other characters
2) To remove the reliance on Synapse to get them back up after G2G
3) Warp Charge battery + one of the previous points
4) Additional pinning opportunities and lastly
5) To soak up bolter fire

The problem with all of these options is that Tyranids more often than not, need bodies over upgrades. If you consider the BL an upgrade, it goes against this "rule".

I would totally have a different attitude if the BL still had the Hypnotic Gaze from the previous dex. Then you would be an IC assassin. Just Challenge, then gaze him. IC dead man.

Anyways, BL definitely has it's place, but I feel like adding Genestealers will be better for anyone who runs them.

barnowl wrote:
What I suggested is still battleforged, does have a primary(CAD), and does have OS Termies. Ture I am using 2 codex supplements. But as an FYI, you are not requried to use the CAD for Battleforged, and any Detachment or Fromation can be your Primary.

Huh, I was unaware that you could use any detachment as your primary and still be Battleforged....I really need to read that part over again.

**SHUPPET**

I think you just nailed how I feel about the Broodlord Roxor. I don't number 5 really applies tho, as taking him makes you soak up LESS bolter fire than just taking 4 more stealers.

You really don't want to be challenging with him either very often I feel, I mean when is this going to be better than having 4 more 'Stealers aka 7 more attacks on the charge. No, I think the only relevant bonus to taking him is the GtG tricks, while S5 + the extra chance at pinning (an extremely unreliable one) and the 1 Warp Charge are just small bonuses to help make up for the fact that you just lost a bunch of attacks.

I'd rather just take Shrikes for GtG tricks (also far more reliable than attempting to cast Dominion, can and WILL be denied as it's the most relevant Power you will cast that turn), and they can take a 10 pt Pinning Large Blast weapon which is probably just as reliable or more so than "the Horror".