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Great stuff, Shuppet, many thanks (and exaltations!) for that. I will have a think about a stealers + Living Artillery setup...

I'm going to be honest, I see exactly two reasons to bring Warriors. 1. They are required by a Formation 2. You're out of Fast Attack slots. I liked Warriors in 6th edition, I just think that Shrikes are strictly better in 7th. I love my converted ones so I wanted to try them, and I realized that they are faster than Warriors for the same cost and still score. They make a lot better use of their assault potential with rending claws, and the 5+ to 4+ armor save is barely relevant compared to warriors, as they should always have cover. I took 3 to the ATC and I was very satisfied with how they worked compared to normal warriors.

Are lash whips/boneswords ever worth it on Shrikes? Is it best to keep them cheap like warriors and just stick to devourers and a strangler?
How do Rending Claws match up to Swords?

 Sinful Hero wrote:
Are lash whips/boneswords ever worth it on Shrikes? Is it best to keep them cheap like warriors and just stick to devourers and a strangler?
How do Rending Claws match up to Swords?

If you are going to run Shrikes (and that is an *if*), I would always give 1-2 LW/BS. It lets you potentially snipe out models, and provides a bit more punch to the unit..

 Sinful Hero wrote:
Are lash whips/boneswords ever worth it on Shrikes? Is it best to keep them cheap like warriors and just stick to devourers and a strangler?
How do Rending Claws match up to Swords?

I personally ran 3 shrikes with 2 rending claws and one Barbed Strangler. I found that I didn't miss having a LW/BS, but if you're going against a wraith knight heavy meta you may want it.

 jifel wrote:
I'm going to be honest, I see exactly two reasons to bring Warriors. 1. They are required by a Formation 2. You're out of Fast Attack slots. I liked Warriors in 6th edition, I just think that Shrikes are strictly better in 7th. I love my converted ones so I wanted to try them, and I realized that they are faster than Warriors for the same cost and still score. They make a lot better use of their assault potential with rending claws, and the 5+ to 4+ armor save is barely relevant compared to warriors, as they should always have cover. I took 3 to the ATC and I was very satisfied with how they worked compared to normal warriors.

Depends on how many Taus you got in your area, Shrikes just melt under SMS. Against waveserpent cannon having that 4+ is also nice.

Yep. Eldar and Tau are the reasons to take Warriors over Shrikes. SMS and the Wave Serpent's annoying S7 cover ignoring D6 shot weapon just delete Shrikes off the board with impunity. They pretty much account for anything in the Tyranid army that is cover reliant - so Lictors, Venomthropes, Shrikes, Genestealers (not hard, at this rate I reckon a water pistol accounts for Genestealers) all go poof when confronted with them. Whoever thought people needed respectable strength, mutliple shot, cover save ignoring weapons, eh?

Warriors have their own problems to be honest - the change to vehicles in 7th means that the high strength weapons are coming back in vogue (melta weapons and lascannons in particular) so our Warriors get to relive the joy of why no one took them through 5th in the first place. Really, that EW nerf on Synapse from 4th to 5th was the deathknell for warriors as a whole.

It sucks for Warriors, EW would be great for them. However the reason they are picked now and not in 5E codex, in 5E we had many good Synapse creatures. Flyrants, Zoanthropes, Tervigons, Swarmlord, Shellrants, Tyranid Prime.

In 6E, EVERY SINGLE ONE of these was given a massive nerf. Flyrants got off the easiest. The bulk of the rest are complete trash tier. This is what makes Warriors playable. Terrible codex writing.

Just so I'm keeping up here - exactly how are Warriors better than Shrikes against Eldar or Tau, other than saving you the points of a Termagant squad of course?


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Also, the whole S8 weapons counter Warriors thing is a bit Of a mmyth. S8 blasts do. For 180 pts, 6 Warriors take as many Melta hits to kill as a Tyrannofex for the same price. Melta and Lascannons do not invalidate your Warriors, you are no worse off than had you taken almost any of our other MCs. The real issue is S8+ blasts who will wipe and entire squad in a shot. People need to actually think about why models are bad and not just regurgitate trash.

 SHUPPET wrote:

All in all looks like an interesting game.

The Carnifexes were put in partially as a distraction, and partially because I'd just painted up to 9 for a recent Apoc game and wanted to use the new ones In future I'm going to avoid HVCs and use something like Shrikes for heavy armour. Unfortunately I only own 6 of these, but I have 4 Warrior bodies left in my bits box, so I'll be keeping an eye on ebay for more FW wings.

After that game I agree the best way to run Warriors is MSU, with as many Barbed Stranglers as possible. I've had more than a few games where spamming these along with Biovores from a distance meant my opponent didn't have enough viable troops by the end to achieve anything objectives-wise. Synaptic Swarm was a bust too, the extra synapse range was never needed due to all the Warriors + Shrikes. In fact with this kind of list, if you've lost your synapse it's because all your troops are dead so you've basically already lost.
With that in mind, in future when I want to run Warriors, I'll probably take 2 broods as my minimum troops, then either use more to unlock a second primary detachment (likely for more Elites), or take formations based around Warriors. A combination of Bioblast Node and Living Artillery means 4 troop units, 5 MCs (one with 2+ armour) and a ton of reliable Pinning firepower. I'll probably even stick with a Miasma Prime as my Warlord, it pairs up well with a Barbed Strangler and gives a solid backfield objective holder.

Something like this, which still has 26pts spare:

New List: 1824 pts

----- HQ -------------------------------
1. Tyranid Prime* (150pts)
- 1x Tyranid Prime
- 1x Miasma Cannon

----- Troop ----------------------------
1. Tyranid Warrior Brood* (100pts)
- 3x Tyranid Warrior
- 1x Barbed Strangler
2. Tyranid Warrior Brood* (100pts)
- 3x Tyranid Warrior
- 1x Barbed Strangler

----- Elite ----------------------------
1. Venomthrope Brood (45pts)
- 1x Venomthrope
2. Venomthrope Brood (45pts)
- 1x Venomthrope

----- Fast Attack ----------------------
1. Shrike Brood* (244pts)
- 6x Shrike
- 6x Adrenal Glands, 5x Rending Claws, 1x Pair of Boneswords, 6x Scything Talons

----- Formation ------------------------
1. Bio-blast Node (750pts)
- 3x Tyranid Warrior
- 1x Barbed Strangler
- 3x Carnifex Brood
- 6x Devourer with Brainleech Worms - Twin-linked
- 1x Tyrannofex
- 1x Adrenal Glands, 1x Thorax Swarm - Electroshock Grubs
2. Living Artillery Node (390pts)
- 3x Tyranid Warrior
- 1x Barbed Strangler
- 1x Exocrine
- 3x Biovore

Thought I'd share this here:

http://thetyranidhive.proboards.com/thread/47157/first-knights-maelstrom-mission

Here's a list I was toying around with for a tourney allowing 2 CAD's:

2000 points

Dakka Flyrant
Dakka Flyrant

Zoanthrope
Zoanthrope
Venomthrope
Venomthrope
2 Hive Guard
Haruspex

10 Termagaunt
10 Termagaunt
10 Termagaunt
20 Hormagaunt

Hive Crone

Dakkafex
Dakkafex

Formation: Living Artillery

Seems like it has enough punch to be strong, but not completely optimized and overly competitive; not expecting any crazy lists to show up at this place.

I think I enjoy living artillery far more than skyblight. Also, I have found that getting master of ambush from the warlords traits is devastating; getting the dakkafexs in range on turn 1 is nasty... and getting the hive guard in shooting range on turn 1 while hiding behind a wall? Really ups their potential.

You are paying 80 pts to open up room to blow more points on a Haruspex and an extra Venom/Zoanthrope. If you are doing it to deliberately handicap yourself for the spirit of fun, thats exactly what it will achieve. I think it will struggle even in non competitive games, even though the rest of your list is very solid.


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@LORDFIEND

Very pretty models! Even though you played the rule wrong, doesn't change that it can happen. I think the Maelstroms are silly tbh, I mean there is always going to be some luck involved even in 6E objectives, maelstrom just feels like it can dish out unbalanced battlefields. But could be much worse however

Cheers Shuppet, was a learning experience for sure and yeah, hopefully, eventually I can get my Nids up to his standard

 L0rdF1end wrote:
Thought I'd share this here:

http://thetyranidhive.proboards.com/thread/47157/first-knights-maelstrom-mission

Great job against the knights. Your opponent's army is awesome!

Mobility is definitely the key to Maelstrom objectives.



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omerakk wrote:
Here's a list I was toying around with for a tourney allowing 2 CAD's:

2000 points

Dakka Flyrant
Dakka Flyrant

Zoanthrope
Zoanthrope
Venomthrope
Venomthrope
2 Hive Guard
Haruspex

10 Termagaunt
10 Termagaunt
10 Termagaunt
20 Hormagaunt

Hive Crone

Dakkafex
Dakkafex

Formation: Living Artillery

Seems like it has enough punch to be strong, but not completely optimized and overly competitive; not expecting any crazy lists to show up at this place.

I think I enjoy living artillery far more than skyblight. Also, I have found that getting master of ambush from the warlords traits is devastating; getting the dakkafexs in range on turn 1 is nasty... and getting the hive guard in shooting range on turn 1 while hiding behind a wall? Really ups their potential.

Still in love with your haruspex, I see. At least they are an option against LR's and heavy armor with their crushing claws (I'm assuming they have them, no?).

Good luck.



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 SHUPPET wrote:
It sucks for Warriors, EW would be great for them. However the reason they are picked now and not in 5E codex, in 5E we had many good Synapse creatures. Flyrants, Zoanthropes, Tervigons, Swarmlord, Shellrants, Tyranid Prime.

In 6E, EVERY SINGLE ONE of these was given a massive nerf. Flyrants got off the easiest. The bulk of the rest are complete trash tier. This is what makes Warriors playable. Terrible codex writing.

Just so I'm keeping up here - exactly how are Warriors better than Shrikes against Eldar or Tau, other than saving you the points of a Termagant squad of course?


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Also, the whole S8 weapons counter Warriors thing is a bit Of a mmyth. S8 blasts do. For 180 pts, 6 Warriors take as many Melta hits to kill as a Tyrannofex for the same price. Melta and Lascannons do not invalidate your Warriors, you are no worse off than had you taken almost any of our other MCs. The real issue is S8+ blasts who will wipe and entire squad in a shot. People need to actually think about why models are bad and not just regurgitate trash.

I wouldn't say every single one of those units were nerfed. Flyrants and zoans definitely got a buff. But the rest, yeah.

Don't warriors have 4+ whereas shrikes only 5+? Makes warriors slightly more resilient against serpent-spam mechdar, but Tau will reduce either one to ash in no time.

 jy2 wrote:
Still in love with your haruspex, I see. At least they are an option against LR's and heavy armor with their crushing claws (I'm assuming they have them, no?).

Good luck.

They do. It's the only reason I haven't sold off the two kits I have seeing as how the Exocrine has failed me literally every time I've fielded it.
That and they look amazing.

 jy2 wrote:

 L0rdF1end wrote:
Thought I'd share this here:

http://thetyranidhive.proboards.com/thread/47157/first-knights-maelstrom-mission

Great job against the knights. Your opponent's army is awesome!

Mobility is definitely the key to Maelstrom objectives.

Thanks Jy2, yeah, his army is beautiful.
I want a Tyranid Knight! Might go about converting a Trygon/Mawloc.

Just went out and bought a box of Warriors after reading SHUPPET's post (already have 3, but they are the old wasp ones and I have been looking for an excuse to buy the newer models). Thanks for the well-reasoned post, SHUPPET. I have been wondering about Zoaps for a while, as mine tend to underperform. Now I know why.

I have to say the thoughts on the zopes was very thought provoking. I too have fallen into practice of zopes.

Almost for the very reasons that SHUPPET said, they provide back up synapse pegs and aren't very threatening. It's very easy to think "well it's 50 points, so what" but Tyranids don't have the luxury of wasting points.

I know that i am guilty of being afraid to just take a beating in order to try new things.

If only i could beat those friggin' Tau! Threads like these are great reads! thanks everyone.

 SHUPPET wrote:
It sucks for Warriors, EW would be great for them. However the reason they are picked now and not in 5E codex, in 5E we had many good Synapse creatures. Flyrants, Zoanthropes, Tervigons, Swarmlord, Shellrants, Tyranid Prime.

In 6E, EVERY SINGLE ONE of these was given a massive nerf. Flyrants got off the easiest. The bulk of the rest are complete trash tier. This is what makes Warriors playable. Terrible codex writing.

Just so I'm keeping up here - exactly how are Warriors better than Shrikes against Eldar or Tau, other than saving you the points of a Termagant squad of course?


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Also, the whole S8 weapons counter Warriors thing is a bit Of a mmyth. S8 blasts do. For 180 pts, 6 Warriors take as many Melta hits to kill as a Tyrannofex for the same price. Melta and Lascannons do not invalidate your Warriors, you are no worse off than had you taken almost any of our other MCs. The real issue is S8+ blasts who will wipe and entire squad in a shot. People need to actually think about why models are bad and not just regurgitate trash.

And people need to stop making this into a personal crusade against others.

Forr the record, the vehicle changes mean that there is one S8+ blast weapon coming back with some flavour over here. Vindicator. The Demolisher, with its AP 2 and the fact blasts no longer halve against vehicles if the centre drifts means that the Demolisher is perfect for just deleting..well...anything. A S10, AP2 large blast that rerolls to pen due to Ordnance? Yikes. S8+ blasts are not a rarity to find either and never have been.

The difference against Eldar and Tau? That 4+ save. You may get across the field quicker but both Eldar and Warriors turn overwatch into pain - either through Divination or through sheer volume of fire for overwatch as well as other upgrades. Scoff against the 4+ save all you like, but 50% is better than 33.3%.

Warriors are Troops - thus have objective secured. Shrikes are Fast Attack - their mobility is hampered by the fact they cannot reliably contest or deny objectives. You mentioned your love of Onslaught and using MoA to your advantage - Warriors are prime targets for these as it lets them advance more effectively and they CAN deny objectives straight out. Objective Secured is very, very important. And it's probably the reason MSU troops are coming back in fashion as just one survivor can deny all the Elites, Fast Attack and Heavy Support in the world from claiming an objective or even contesting it. Even small warrior broods can contribute through securing objectives in a far more reliable fashion than anything else.

Not to mention the fact that pinning is also incredibly potent in this edition. Pinned units = No Overwatch. A barebones warrior unit with a barbed strangler is gloriously cheap and provides a 3 foot range to pin things in - helping the units that advance a fair bit more. I should imagine that putting ranged weapons on Shrikes is something of a waste of their potential, much as melee weapons on a majority unit of warriors can be seen as such (oh 4th ed, I miss you and your Leaping Warriors) and most configurations we've seen in here have featured melee upgrades - making the cost of shrikes even more so.

More points, a worse save (that can be denied by bolter/shruicat fire) and no Objective Secured.

Now, Shrikes have their uses. But against two armies with an abundance of AP 5 weapons as well as high strength, multiple shot cover ignoring weapons Shrikes are going to be more a liability. You may think you need them for their mobility - against Tau and Eldar? Your mobility is a joke. Jet Packs, Jet Bikes and Fast Skimmers will see to that. Oh, forgot to mention, these Fast Skimmers with the Eldar are the same ones that come with a cover ignoring multishot weapon. The jet units all come bristling with AP 5 or better weaponry. You're not going to be hiding from those with cover hopping for LoS either.

True, in 5E we had very, very good synapse options. Tervigons were clearly broken and got balanced, Flyrants are much on par with what we have now (which I dare say got BETTER in 6th and 7th ed. than their 5th ed. counterparts), Zoeys suffered from the loss of Spores, the Swarmlord...meh. Wasn't too fond of him in the first place. The Prime suffered as well.

But the lost of EW also hurt in the era of spammed missile launchers and abundance force, melta, las-plas. Don't forget, EW didn't just apply to warriors but also to anything within Synapse range. It was not...pleasant.

But Objective Secured is the main thing warriors have going for them over Shrikes. The ability to park yourself on an objective, even if only with one straggler and completely deny it to all bar enemy troops is somewhat important in a game where of the two 'types' of missions there are over 50% of them are objective focused.


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 L0rdF1end wrote:
Thought I'd share this here:

http://thetyranidhive.proboards.com/thread/47157/first-knights-maelstrom-mission

Also, lovely to see Knights.

I feel that Maelstrom missions lean more to our favour than they do for Knights - simply because we have objective secured while they do not - doubly so with Skyblight gargoyles - and 50% of the random objectives we roll are Secure X. But also helped to see that they were tough...

Knights - too hard for us to kill reliably at range and far too risky to go into melee with (Because that D weapon hurts.) Was it through mass HP stripping? Also, did the Electroshock have significant impact?

Still in love with your haruspex, I see. At least they are an option against LR's and heavy armor with their crushing claws (I'm assuming they have them, no?).

Good luck.

Indeed I am! I love the way it looks.
Plus, it was given to me as a birthday gift, so I would feel like a real twatwaffle if I didn't use it.

omerakk wrote:

Still in love with your haruspex, I see. At least they are an option against LR's and heavy armor with their crushing claws (I'm assuming they have them, no?).

Good luck.

Indeed I am! I love the way it looks.
Plus, it was given to me as a birthday gift, so I would feel like a real twatwaffle if I didn't use it.

Could have been worse. You could have been given Pyrovores....wait, mind you, they do make rather good Biovores, don't they?

Actually, wait, Harus are surprisingly good in that anti-armour big critter role...only problem is our ever crowded elites slot. As usual.

Have you had much joy with him? (I feel it's a him. I want to call him Harry.)

I wouldn't say every single one of those units were nerfed. Flyrants and zoans definitely got a buff. But the rest, yeah.

Flyrants you can make a case for. Maybe to some, 30 pt reduction and 1 grounding test per turn outweighs losing all rolls on Biomancy, being able to glide into combat the turn after a swoop, losing precision shots, having your Vector Strike nerfed into useless or one step from it, having their Smash get the same treatment, Devourers losing their check, and Old Adversary upgrade no longer giving Preferred Enemy bubble.. I guess that's all subjective though, I would be more than happy to pay 30 pts and take more grounding tests in return for all that crap back. Especially seeing how nice Flyrants WS is, but I digress. Remains a nerf in my book though.

The Zoanthropes though - I just can't see it. How the hell can you call these things buffed? The 10 pt reduction and a free roll on our new table? Look a bit deeper than the surface, the new table is mostly crap for them and they traded out the utility option of THREE rolls on Biomancy for it. Warp Lance as a power got worse, both in strength and reliability. Then they got BoS, all or nothing nature making Warp Lance even worse than before, the best thing about them was taking 3 and getting a couple or even one AP1 lance get through for a good roll to explode - no longer is this an option. Well, that's assuming they still had their option of pods, which was so good for them that it was auto include. Nope, this has all been nerfed, and they are relegated to Synapse pegs, which they do 10 pts cheaper but 5x worse with their crap tier Power options, as their only role. It's arguable that they got buffed in this role in the sense that the Elite slots opened up, but given that Warriors still do this better or equally well 9 times out of 10, and that they lost everything else that made them good in 5E, and then add to all this that any power they cast is easier to deny than before (even if not overly so), then I just can't see how these have been anything but undeniably nerfed. If you are telling me you would not swap the current ones out of the codex for last editions 60 pt ones, that do everything it does but better, but can also provide roles like dropPodding, mobile, more reliable to cast and hit with, AP1 Warp Lances for brilliant anti-tank,that could all cast their powers reliably without eating 6 Warpcharges per Lance, could take a Biomancy roll on each, etc, then I don't know what to say to that - more power to you I guess.


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But Objective Secured is the main thing warriors have going for them over Shrikes. The ability to park yourself on an objective, even if only with one straggler and completely deny it to all bar enemy troops is somewhat important in a game where of the two 'types' of missions there are over 50% of them are objective focused.

Before I begin, it was a genuine question, not a "personal crusade against you". Such a thing does not interest me in the slightest.

The Armor Save thing makes perfect sense, thank you. Although I'm sure it's doing very little against Tau.

The Objective Secured, not so much. I don't know about you but I'd prefer to have the mobility to make it into combat with either Tau or Wave Serpents a turn earlier (or at all), as opposed to sitting around trying to contest an objective with Warriors against either race.

I don't think it's all that clear cut which would be more effective on the battlefield vs both those races tbh, both would have their merits.

Different folks have different tastes. Let's leave it at that. I'm still playing with ideas to make my weekend of painting interesting.

Now, there is the following options with the currently floating poiints...

Drop the Hive Tyrant (or Trygon) and 2 Zoanthropes.
Get 2 Dakkafexes and have 30 points spare.

I'd lose a total of 6 Warp Charges (putting me on 8 before the dice roll) and would lose some of the synapse overlap.

The return, if I get onlsaught you won't scream angrily at me for 'wasting' it. Ditto for MoA.

Actually, I might go with that. Though I hope you realise my hatred for you burns as I paint the mass of fleshy tones that are 2 carnifexes. (So...much...bone....maybe I could be lazy and paint my converted 3rd ed carnifexes...yeah...they're more armour than skin!)

Paint frowns on the Carnifexes head carapace to represent that

Drop the Trygon IMO. Quick question, what exactly is it that you want it for? From there it's easier to tell whether you need to keep it or whether something could do it's job better.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Paint frowns on the Carnifexes carapace to represent that

Drop the Trygon IMO. Quick question, what exactly is it that you want it for? From there it's easier to tell whether you need to keep it or whether something could do it's job better.

Wraithknight/Riptide discouragement. Also, small squad deterrent. Trygons with toxin will eat those, they will eat command squads, terminator squads (apart from TH/SS) or any other small, armoured squads that could prove annoying. I5 is mighty handy along with WS 5 for that.

To add to what Shuppet has said about zoans and troops...

I have been preaching the use of MSU warriors since our new codex dropped. 100pts gives you a unit you can put in cover, (keep one model out of LoS), pertty resilient, decent in combat, and can take 36" range potshots while being OS and synapse.

In 2K I was running 3-4 of them. I *did* switch one to 10gaunts+Zoan for a few of reasons
1) I really like being able to use gaunts to speed bump or corral an enemy unit
2) I still have the same number of synapse and troops units
3) Gives me a roll to maybe get a cool psy power.
4) In 7th, even without a decent power, it gives 2 more dice for my flyrants to use.


I just don't think zoans are very good, and much prefer having warriors around.
Another option, however, is a 5pack of stealers. They can infiltrate, do not need synapse, are only 70pts and can do some CC damage. I would use them to park on an objective, but hopefully be close enough to support the warriors if they get charged. (5 stealers isn't enough to attack much, but is nice as a second unit into a fight.)

Last of all.... out of nowhere comes.... rippers.

for 45 pts you get a unit that can Deepstrike, is so small its easy to hide out of LoS, and is less worried about synapse than gaunts. Yes, they will slowly eat themselves, but only slowly. They are susceptible to S6+ shooting if you can't get them out of LoS, but they are cheap and small. I would gladly take them over a gaunt brood most of the
time.


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Trygons got nerfed in the codex, and then hit again via 7th. They are just not worth their points anymore.

i am itching to try out rippers.

One of the big issues i get stuck on, and i know it's just in my head, is alot of my lists don't feel "Tyranid-y", i love the idea of swarms of gaunts intermixed with the big boys but on the table it just never works. /endtears

2x2 Lictors can get to combat quicker, more reliably, and still throw down heavy with the units mentioned. I think if a single Trygon is in threat range of either a WK or a Riptide, your opponent is either killing it, taking it to low enough HP to lose the combat, or just straight moving out of it's threat range. Ofc Lictors are a costly $$ purchase from GW and not something a lot of people have laying around. Exocrine does really well against most of them, but honestly - taking a blob of TS Gargs will cost a similar amount, be harder to deal with and faster than a Trygon, and at the very least knock something out of the fight with great haste.


But I do think you could just take 200 pts of just about anything though and probably get better results than a Trygon, e.g. even 50 Termagants just provides a perma tarpit for anything mentioned (even multiple things), effectively knocking them out of the fight until you reinforce the combat with an MC or 2 of your own.

Dakkafexes probably don't fill the role of the Trygon, so you might want to take out the other thing you were considering removing for them if you want to take them (they are pretty swell). However I'd definitely consider rethinking that Trygon regardless.

 SHUPPET wrote:

I wouldn't say every single one of those units were nerfed. Flyrants and zoans definitely got a buff. But the rest, yeah.

Flyrants you can make a case for. Maybe to some, 30 pt reduction and 1 grounding test per turn outweighs losing all rolls on Biomancy, being able to glide into combat the turn after a swoop, losing precision shots, having your Vector Strike nerfed into useless or one step from it, having their Smash get the same treatment, Devourers losing their check, and Old Adversary upgrade no longer giving Preferred Enemy bubble.. I guess that's all subjective though, I would be more than happy to pay 30 pts and take more grounding tests in return for all that crap back. Especially seeing how nice Flyrants WS is, but I digress. Remains a nerf in my book though.

The Zoanthropes though - I just can't see it. How the hell can you call these things buffed? The 10 pt reduction and a free roll on our new table? Look a bit deeper than the surface, the new table is mostly crap for them and they traded out the utility option of THREE rolls on Biomancy for it. Warp Lance as a power got worse, both in strength and reliability. Then they got BoS, all or nothing nature making Warp Lance even worse than before, the best thing about them was taking 3 and getting a couple or even one AP1 lance get through for a good roll to explode - no longer is this an option. Well, that's assuming they still had their option of pods, which was so good for them that it was auto include. Nope, this has all been nerfed, and they are relegated to Synapse pegs, which they do 10 pts cheaper but 5x worse with their crap tier Power options, as their only role. It's arguable that they got buffed in this role in the sense that the Elite slots opened up, but given that Warriors still do this better or equally well 9 times out of 10, and that they lost everything else that made them good in 5E, and then add to all this that any power they cast is easier to deny than before (even if not overly so), then I just can't see how these have been anything but undeniably nerfed. If you are telling me you would not swap the current ones out of the codex for last editions 60 pt ones, that do everything it does but better, but can also provide roles like dropPodding, mobile, more reliable to cast and hit with, AP1 Warp Lances for brilliant anti-tank,that could all cast their powers reliably without eating 6 Warpcharges per Lance, could take a Biomancy roll on each, etc, then I don't know what to say to that - more power to you I guess.

Don't forget flyrants got a buff to BS4 as well.

Tyranid powers are actually quite good, and now both the flyrant and the zoan gets 3 of them! How is that not a buff? I can tell you that I'm not missing Biomancy that much, but to each their own.

Now your zoan basically gives 18" synapse as opposed to 12" back then. He is perfect as a beacon of synapse in your backfield and although the model is tall, he isn't really all that hard to hide. Plus now, he is scoring as well. As for Warp Lance, I mainly used it as an "attack of opportunity" rather than as a go-to offense. If a tank gets close enough, I will shoot at it but I've never played the zoan as an aggressive tank-hunter so the drop from AP1 to AP2 isn't really a big deal, at least not to me.

Yes, he lost his drop pod. That just means that now you aren't sacrificing 180-pts of zoans just to kill 1 tank and you get an extra 40-pts (?) to spend on other parts of the army.

The role of the zoanthrope has changed. Just because he lost a little doesn't mean he got worse. What happened is that his "strengths" have shifted and now he is better served in a much different role than what he had before. I can tell you this much. I hardly ever used him in 5th. Now, in 6th and 7th, he is a staple of my army that I just can't do without. That's not what I would call a nerf.

1) I really like being able to use gaunts to speed bump or corral an enemy unit

Thing is, 3 Warriors can do this as well. With 9 T4 4+ wounds S4 attacks they stand a better chance to do it more resiliently than Terms against anything without a Fist, while likely doing a lot more damage them and striking first. As well as having much better combat upgrades. Well, much better upgrades in general.


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Then I guess it's a play style difference jy because my experience is exactly the opposite. I was actually prone to running 9 in 5E, they were so versatile and I loved them. Nowadays they are a very very niche pick for me, but I see the value of Dominion apparently has a big effect on your play style. It's probably something I should have mentioned in my Zope Analysis, but I literally forgot it - that's how little effect the option of Dominion has had on my games. This is probably a play style difference but I'd still much much prefer to play within the 6" restriction difference between Warriors natural Synapse compared to Zopes dominion range (assuming succesful casts), simply for the fact that 1 is adding something (a lot) more to my army than just the Synapse. I can't from my perspective see how losing all that excellence for a change in roles (a role that it already could do) is a buff. If you never played them in 5E I can see how you might view it otherwise, but I think very few would share that experience, just speculation though. Just a question for you to mull though, Are you sure that the reason you are playing Zopes now is because they have gotten buffed, or has the need for having a Synapse peg in your army just increased?


Oh, forgot the BS4 on the Flyrants - that is a good one actually. I think there's something else that got better on them too although I can't think of it right now. The benefits of ML2 perhaps. Not sure. Doesn't outweigh Biomancy for me, but I do concede that this one can be argued. As I said however, these guys got the lightest end of the stick when it came to the rebalancing of Synapse creatures, I mean we all still use em regardless right?