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They need to be run in conjunction with Biovores for the Ruins or even LA. They should assault and tarpit / do a couple of wounds, attempting to H&R and burrow when low health, coming back to claim or nuke again. Multiple Maelocs definitely do a big burst nuke turn 2 so build with units to take advantage of it. Smash nerf affected them the most out of all the playable MCs in our dex so they aren't as great as they were last edition, they are so points effecient tho that it's rare they are ever a complete waste.

i thought that at first too (ref: smash nerf) but really, i think it effected them the least. things that you need S10 for were bad targets for them to begin with. let them stay and slaughter infantry and the occasional light vehicle, which they excel at.

also def. a proponent of multiple mawlocks to get the best out of them/deter the random.

I think it made them a little more versatile with multiple smashes on the charge! You were never forced to attack heavy armor but the option was still there, now it's not. Considering for everything else smash was less than guaranteed to even be relevant, I think it hurt Mawloc the most , but to be fair no more than the FMC assault nerf hurt Crones and harpies. Less so even. I'm still a big advocate of the Loc even if he is objectively worse in 7th it's not crippling, and he was IMO the best unit in the dex in 6th. I ran 3 in practically every list including my main, he was the core of the dex for me for a long time and I probably have used him more than any other unit we have, I feel confident in saying he's still amazing and never a waste.

Anyone prefer to start their Mawlocs on the board? I did this my last game (against a Space Wolves list with a lot of assault elements and a few drop pods) and was pleased as it was able to help provide cover, draw a few pot shots (totally fine with my Mawloc taking a wound a two before it gets a chance to burrow) and even got into assault on turn 1 (I went second), which it, of course, hit and ran out of to allow for a turn 2 burrow.

Not sure do it against gun line armies, but there is something nice about KNOWING when the Mawloc's coming in rather than failing it's reserve roll over and over again (or just forgetting to roll for it, which I've also done). Anyone else starting their Mawlocs on the board?

 gigasnail wrote:
i thought that at first too (ref: smash nerf) but really, i think it effected them the least. things that you need S10 for were bad targets for them to begin with. let them stay and slaughter infantry and the occasional light vehicle, which they excel at.

also def. a proponent of multiple mawlocks to get the best out of them/deter the random.

They used to get 3 Attacks when they Smashed. Giving up 1 attack to let them pop AV14 made them a very, very effective anti-armor unit. Plus they could catch vehicles, because of their mobility advantage. But a key thing that I noted. They used to be able to pop rhinos reliably. Now they need 2 assaults to have a chance. Lemun Russes need 3 charges to kill one.

 SHUPPET wrote:
They need to be run in conjunction with Biovores for the Ruins or even LA.

Add even more heavy support that can't pop a rhino. Your meta must be different than mine, because there is no way I could cede 2 heavy support slots to units that can't pop a vehicle and expect to win games.

 SHUPPET wrote:
they are so points effecient tho that it's rare they are ever a complete waste.

10 points less than a Dakkafex. 20 points more than a squad of 20 Gargoyles. 20 points more than a squad of 3 biovores. 30 points less than an Exocrine which can more reliably handle 2+ armor saves, and also kill vehicles. 15 points less than a Crone. All of those seem like a better way to spend points.

tag8833 wrote:
10 points less than a Dakkafex. 20 points more than a squad of 20 Gargoyles. 20 points more than a squad of 3 biovores. 30 points less than an Exocrine which can more reliably handle 2+ armor saves, and also kill vehicles. 15 points less than a Crone. All of those seem like a better way to spend points.

None of which can do what a Mawloc does.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Another thing Ive come to understand is 1)AV14 is not a big deal 2)When I have encountered LR, its electroshock grubs that handle it in 2 turns. When an opponent brings that I am usually ignoring that unit to focus on other things anyway, and Ive never had the 'oh no I cant deal with that unit!' feeling.

 Iechine wrote:

tag8833 wrote:
10 points less than a Dakkafex. 20 points more than a squad of 20 Gargoyles. 20 points more than a squad of 3 biovores. 30 points less than an Exocrine which can more reliably handle 2+ armor saves, and also kill vehicles. 15 points less than a Crone. All of those seem like a better way to spend points.

None of which can do what a Mawloc does.

The Exocrine does AP:2 better. The Crone does Mobility better, the Biovores do anti-infantry better, the Dakkafex does everything but mobility better, the Gargoyles do Tarpitting and mobility better.

 Iechine wrote:
Another thing Ive come to understand is 1)AV14 is not a big deal 2)When I have encountered LR, its electroshock grubs that handle it in 2 turns. When an opponent brings that I am usually ignoring that unit to focus on other things anyway, and Ive never had the 'oh no I cant deal with that unit!' feeling.

AV14 isn't that big of a deal. I still see double Land Raider often (and triple Land Raider occasionally), Lemun Russes and Battle Wagons are AV14 front, but I'm more afraid of 6-10 Rhino lists and 6-10 drop pod lists.

However, AV13 is a big, giant deal. Necrons are good, Knights are good, Dreadnoughts are better than before. AV13 is all over the place, and that is the challenge for Tyranids right now. AV 12 is super common, but at least Devourers have a chance.

None of them can deep strike multiple times a game in an edition where mobility is critical, and the Exocrines delivery is highly dubious. Take it against a bike list and who cares about its AP2.

tag8833 wrote:

AV14 isn't that big of a deal. I still see double Land Raider often (and triple Land Raider occasionally), Lemun Russes and Battle Wagons are AV14 front, but I'm more afraid of 6-10 Rhino lists and 6-10 drop pod lists.

However, AV13 is a big, giant deal. Necrons are good, Knights are good, Dreadnoughts are better than before. AV13 is all over the place, and that is the challenge for Tyranids right now. AV 12 is super common, but at least Devourers have a chance.

I fought against six razorback and six drop pod spam lists in a tourney over the weekend and they werent an issue, especially the razorbacks. 4 dead first turn, 2 more next, and that was with only 2 Flyrants. We've got the tools for it.

Yeah it's the AV13 spammers we have real trouble with. I'd love to see Jy2 do a battle between his
Nids and his Av13 Crons!

 Iechine wrote:
None of them can deep strike multiple times a game in an edition where mobility is critical, and the Exocrines delivery is highly dubious. Take it against a bike list and who cares about its AP2.

tag8833 wrote:

AV14 isn't that big of a deal. I still see double Land Raider often (and triple Land Raider occasionally), Lemun Russes and Battle Wagons are AV14 front, but I'm more afraid of 6-10 Rhino lists and 6-10 drop pod lists.

However, AV13 is a big, giant deal. Necrons are good, Knights are good, Dreadnoughts are better than before. AV13 is all over the place, and that is the challenge for Tyranids right now. AV 12 is super common, but at least Devourers have a chance.

I fought against six razorback and six drop pod spam lists in a tourney over the weekend and they werent an issue, especially the razorbacks. 4 dead first turn, 2 more next, and that was with only 2 Flyrants. We've got the tools for it.

Too be fair your razorback opponent deployed at the top of his zone right across from your dakka fexs and flyrants when he was going second. Worst opponent ever. No reasonable player should give your dakkafexes turn one range on a rhino chasis. Not when pre-measuring is legal.

You played well btw, just thought I should point out that killing rhinos and pods is a bit more difficult then in those games usually.

BTW you wouldn't happen to know who produces the buildings that were used in that tournament would you?

Eldercaveman wrote:
Yeah it's the AV13 spammers we have real trouble with. I'd love to see Jy2 do a battle between his
Nids and his Av13 Crons!

Such a battle would favor the crons due to the ability of their teslas to take out Tyranid flyers. However, with the Malanthrope giving potentially 2+ cover to bugs (in ruins), it would actually be a tough fight for the crons as they have problems against units with 2+ saves. It would also depend on what type of tyranid lists. My current cron list runs bargelords, who can be tarpitted by tyranid gribblies. So against nidzilla lists with ripper troops, Necrons would have a major advantage. Against a more traditional, "old-fashioned" bug list with tervigon and 30x termagant troops (or with lots of gribblies), bugs can neutralize the effectiveness of the bargelords and then kill AB's with egrubs and rear shots. In such a matchup, bugs actually have a decent chance to beat the crons.

 Red Corsair wrote:


Too be fair your razorback opponent deployed at the top of his zone right across from your dakka fexs and flyrants when he was going second. Worst opponent ever. No reasonable player should give your dakkafexes turn one range on a rhino chasis. Not when pre-measuring is legal.

You played well btw, just thought I should point out that killing rhinos and pods is a bit more difficult then in those games usually.

BTW you wouldn't happen to know who produces the buildings that were used in that tournament would you?

He went first actually, I think he thought night fighting would save him, and that his GoI GravStar would wipe out my Fexes or both Tyrants (Which is why I was more than happy to DTW on only Gate.

The terrain was GW and the rest was an Infinity company, I can find out when I go to the store today to face off against a DE list.

Ah that's what it was, still there is no reason for giving your fexes range IMHO. I don't like those GK ally lists personally, the henchmen are too soft which is why taking risks like he did are unwise. You made him pay.

Sweet thanks. Those buildings you hid in seemed like they would go together quick and paint up nicely. Scale looks spot on!




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jy2 wrote:

Eldercaveman wrote:
Yeah it's the AV13 spammers we have real trouble with. I'd love to see Jy2 do a battle between his
Nids and his Av13 Crons!

Such a battle would favor the crons due to the ability of their teslas to take out Tyranid flyers. However, with the Malanthrope giving potentially 2+ cover to bugs (in ruins), it would actually be a tough fight for the crons as they have problems against units with 2+ saves. It would also depend on what type of tyranid lists. My current cron list runs bargelords, who can be tarpitted by tyranid gribblies. So against nidzilla lists with ripper troops, Necrons would have a major advantage. Against a more traditional, "old-fashioned" bug list with tervigon and 30x termagant troops (or with lots of gribblies), bugs can neutralize the effectiveness of the bargelords and then kill AB's with egrubs and rear shots. In such a matchup, bugs actually have a decent chance to beat the crons.

Malanthropes are stupidly good. Played them twice already and if I were a bug player I'd never play without them unless it was no FW. It's FW gift to bug players, pretty sure they took it upon themselves to remedy the issues with the Nid dex

They have so many abilities for their cost, it's amazing. Prey adaptation is awesome in counter attack situations too, just charge him into a Dpod combat squad that's been shot up and he doles out preferred enemy too. It's one of those abilities you don't care about because he is already so worth it, then it helps in a game and he looks EVEN better.

Perhaps someone can help explain this - I often read that Ripper Swarms are good because they can "operate outside of Synapse" because they're Fearless.

They still have Instinctive Behavior (Feed) and their Ld is 6. Outside of Synapse, the way I see it, they could still very well end up eating themselves on failed tests.

So what makes Ripper Swarms a good choice, because of Fearless and Synapse? How does all this work, exactly?

Thanks!

Its kinda impossible for a Ripper Swarm to eat itself, to many wounds for so few models.

notbriang wrote:
Perhaps someone can help explain this - I often read that Ripper Swarms are good because they can "operate outside of Synapse" because they're Fearless.

They still have Instinctive Behavior (Feed) and their Ld is 6. Outside of Synapse, the way I see it, they could still very well end up eating themselves on failed tests.

So what makes Ripper Swarms a good choice, because of Fearless and Synapse? How does all this work, exactly?

Thanks!

Here's the difference:

1. Rippers fail IB. They cause 2-3W (because it is only a unit of 3) on themselves but stay on objective because they are Fearless.

2. Termagants fail IB. They then fall back and leave objective.

3. Hormagants fail IB. They start eating themselves, killing more than 25% of the unit. They then fail morale and run off of the objective.

 jy2 wrote:

Eldercaveman wrote:
Yeah it's the AV13 spammers we have real trouble with. I'd love to see Jy2 do a battle between his
Nids and his Av13 Crons!

Such a battle would favor the crons due to the ability of their teslas to take out Tyranid flyers. However, with the Malanthrope giving potentially 2+ cover to bugs (in ruins), it would actually be a tough fight for the crons as they have problems against units with 2+ saves. It would also depend on what type of tyranid lists. My current cron list runs bargelords, who can be tarpitted by tyranid gribblies. So against nidzilla lists with ripper troops, Necrons would have a major advantage. Against a more traditional, "old-fashioned" bug list with tervigon and 30x termagant troops (or with lots of gribblies), bugs can neutralize the effectiveness of the bargelords and then kill AB's with egrubs and rear shots. In such a matchup, bugs actually have a decent chance to beat the crons.

I played Necrons on Tuesday. He is a relatively new player, and his list was not optimized yet, so I ran a list with a similar power level.

The game was hammer and anvil, so I infiltrated 20 genestealers into midfield terrain, and conga lined them back to my venomthrope. His first shooting attack at my screening gargoyles with a tesla annihilation barge proceeded to Arc 6 times, most notably to the Genestealers which killed 3 Congalined units and took them out of the Shrouded bubble. It also arced to my other screening units (Hormagaunts), killed 2, and took them out of range of shrouded. The rest of his army took my Genestealers down to 2 models, and killed the rest of my gaunts. My turn 1, I was mostly out of range. My Crone killed 4 Warriors. His turn two, his monolith deep struck right in the middle of all my units, and ate my venomthrope when the venom failed its Strength test. From that point on, I was hemoraging firepower at an alarming rate, and not doing much damage to him until I made assaults (which is damn hard against vehicles that move 36")

I was able to eventually Pen the Barges with my Crone, and Zoeys, And turn 3 I managed to assault most of his infantry and kill his warlord. We had to call the game at the Bottom of 4, and neither of us had much left, but those annihilation barges are so powerful, and Ghost Arks are hard to deal with. I remain terrified of Necrons.

I don't understand how so many people are losing synapse.

I've had a unit out of synapse maybe 10 times in the last three years.

How much synapse are you guys running?

Normally I run 2 Flyrants and a Tervigon and that's it.

Towards the end of 6th I ran a unit of Warriors as well.
In this day and age - if an opponent wants you out of synapse, you will be.

I just mainly run lists where the loss of synapse has very little effect. The IB table is my least favorite part of the book, its such a kick in the groin.

 Iechine wrote:
I just mainly run lists where the loss of synapse has very little effect. The IB table is my least favorite part of the book, its such a kick in the groin.

Instinctive Behavior and Mob Rule for Orks are fundamental failure in rules writing. 1) They require you to look up rules in the middle of a game. 2) the results are never good. 3) They make playing the army frustrating. 4) The leave lingering negative feelings about games you loose.

There is no way that these rules add to the fun of the game. They may shift the meta away from hoards which seem to be a strong effort by GW, but they do so as a cost to fun that is simply not worth it, and could have been done in other ways much cheaper and easier. It is a greater sin than Serpent Shields, Shadows of the Warp, Riptides, Eldar/Tau double moves, Heldrakes, Annihilation Barges, or Buffmander. I fear that GW fundamentally disagrees with me, or else they wouldn't have written Mob Rule after the way the community responded to Instinctive Behavior.

 ductvader wrote:
I don't understand how so many people are losing synapse.

I've had a unit out of synapse maybe 10 times in the last three years.

How much synapse are you guys running?

It is a "style" thing, take a look at lists being posted...many folks like running real thin on Synapse. I on the other hand, likely run too much. Local "meta" is a big part as well.

tag8833 wrote:
I fear that GW fundamentally disagrees with me, or else they wouldn't have written Mob Rule after the way the community responded to Instinctive Behavior.

They probably didn't. Every plastic 40k release this year up to and including Space Wolves has models with 2013 stamped on the sprue. It's very likely the Ork codex was wrapped up and sent off for printing before we even saw the Tyranid one.

tag8833 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
They need to be run in conjunction with Biovores for the Ruins or even LA.

Add even more heavy support that can't pop a rhino. Your meta must be different than mine, because there is no way I could cede 2 heavy support slots to units that can't pop a vehicle and expect to win games.

 SHUPPET wrote:
they are so points effecient tho that it's rare they are ever a complete waste.

10 points less than a Dakkafex. 20 points more than a squad of 20 Gargoyles. 20 points more than a squad of 3 biovores. 30 points less than an Exocrine which can more reliably handle 2+ armor saves, and also kill vehicles. 15 points less than a Crone. All of those seem like a better way to spend points.

For starters, Living Artillery doesn't take up any HS slots, but its not that relevant. Mawlocs role isn't hammering down Rhinos, although with AG on the charge it does as much as a Dakkafex shooting at front armour, but thats not so relevant either, I don't view Dakkafex as reliable AT. If I wanted reliable AT, I wouldn't be wasting my Exocrine or Dakkafex shooting on armour at all, or wasting my points in general on a crappy ass Crone. I'm finding the best AT is Haywire Hive Guard for heavy armour, or Flyrants for Rhino-esque transports at the rear armour, possibly Dakkafex to some extent for extended coverage and SA shots but not something I rely on. Mawloc is not some "auto-lose" vs Rhino spam, in fact in the Space Marine match up he is the best tool in the dex for dealing with Bikes, Cents, and anything in power armour, as well as having the versatility of reliably punching 3 plasma hits into a vehicles rear armour.

Dakkafex? 10 pts more, 2 wounds less
Crones, 15 pts more, 2 wounds less, T5 , 4+
Exocrine, 30 points more, 1 less wound, even worse than Dakkafexes at AT, comparable anti-infantry to a Mawloc, doesnt fulfill the same roles
Gargs, T3, not even a comparison to damage output and durability lol

Biovore is arguably more cost effective but has a narrower scope of effective targets, and that aside Mawloc fills a completely different role. Unless of course you use your Biovores to claim midfield objectives and tarpit for your army. Which is the only case that you could even use this comparison


It isn't as cut and dry as you would have us believe, the damage output on the Mawloc pergame is generally higher than than any of the models you mentioned except maybe Dakkafex, who sacrifices durability and mobility for it. I think the Dakkafex is a great model and one of the best in the dex however, that doesn't mean we can never find any use for the Mawloc, especially since even one Mawloc in a list gives you a good way to deal with a lot of things that Dakkafex's don't deal with effeciently. At the end of the day, 6 T6 3+ wounds for 140 pts is extremely cost efficient, making them tankier than Nurgle Bikers, also making them one of the best deepstriking assault units in the game even just as a tarpit, that have a massive armor ignoring, cover-ignoring, re-rolling to wound S6 large blast on entry to go with it. Ignoring this as a bad unit is crazy.

Yes, the points per wound is really good, but so what? The Harpy is really hard to kill too...

The Mawloc gets a whopping 3 attacks at WS3....yippee!! To try and portray this as somehow useful in CC is a joke; it can't even be relied upon to take out a vehicle, any vehicle.

And if you *do* assault the enemy, it means you are not reburrowiing, which means no TftD.

The *only* reason to take it is for TftD. Two S6 AP2 blasts is pretty good, but to get it, you have to chance reserves, have to avoid scatter (or ruins) and will be lucky to pull it off more than 2 times a game, even if the enemy doesn't try and take it out. So yes *if* the enemy has a juicy target, *and* you don't scatter, you can do a lot of damage. The difference is that other units can do that damage every turn, not just twice a game.

 SHUPPET wrote:
I'm finding the best AT is Haywire Hive Guard for heavy armour.

Friends don't let friend take Haywire Hive Guard. The best AT for heavy armour is Carnifexes in Assault, Flyrants firing Warp Lance or E.Grubs, and Crones.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Ignoring this as a bad unit is crazy.

It's not a bad unit. Just unreliable.

As I said, we must play in a far different meta. If I see 1 Rhino, I'm usually seeing 6 Rhinos + 2 Razorbacks and a Land Raider. No soft targets at all. I rarely see marine bikes, and when I do, Dakka Flyrants, and Dakka Fexes have no problem dealing with them. I've only seen centurions on the table once (in 6th). I manage to kill them with an assaulting flyrant. When I do see a good target for a Mawloc (say devastators or longfangs), they are always on the upper level of terrain. The only large groups of infantry I see are orks, Necrons, and Guard. All of which die to a Crone or TFex just as easily as a Mawloc, and the Orks and Guard are an assault threat for the Mawloc. The only time I see Terminators, they have storm shields.

coredump wrote:
Yes, the points per wound is really good, but so what? The Harpy is really hard to kill too...

The Mawloc gets a whopping 3 attacks at WS3....yippee!! To try and portray this as somehow useful in CC is a joke; it can't even be relied upon to take out a vehicle, any vehicle.

And if you *do* assault the enemy, it means you are not reburrowiing, which means no TftD.

Except it DOES have Hit and Run, so it's not actually locked in combat 66% of the time. Also, just because it isn't a close combat killing machine doesn't mean it's S6 AP2 attacks (or it's 1 smash attempt) can't benefit a given situation.

After thinking about it...because you're definitely looking at bringing it in from reserves, you're point is valid...if you assault the turn after you arrive, you cannot re-burrow. It IS nice to have the option to do either...not sure why the option is a negative. Either way, my above comment is more in the spirit of starting on the board and having the potential to assault before burrowing (going second against a drop pod army, for example).

The *only* reason to take it is for TftD. Two S6 AP2 blasts is pretty good, but to get it, you have to chance reserves, have to avoid scatter (or ruins) and will be lucky to pull it off more than 2 times a game, even if the enemy doesn't try and take it out. So yes *if* the enemy has a juicy target, *and* you don't scatter, you can do a lot of damage. The difference is that other units can do that damage every turn, not just twice a game.

You're right...the only reason you're taking it is for the TftD, but you don't actually have to chance reserves...it can start on the board. Sure, the first TftD attack will land turn 3 after a turn 2 burrow, but that just means you'll potentially be landing a second TftD on turn 5, which is a pretty good time to deep strike a scoring unit anywhere you'd like on the board (if you need to grab an objective or drop a S6 AP2 ignores cover pie plate (X 2 potentially) on a unit that you may not be able to shift off an objective otherwise). I know I know...you want your first TftD to be on turn 2...it's not the end of the world to wait till turn 3, and it's guaranteed.

In a landscape where people are complaining non-stop about how uninspired our codex is...it's a shame that we can't embrace a useful, unique option.

I like your last statement Voidwraith, it is a great option and not totally outclassed by anything. The best comparison is Exocrine (Mawloc potentially lands 2 blasts every 2 turns), except Mawloc puts it's 2 blasts down the same turn, leaving it free to assault the turn after, and at 30 pts cheaper with one extra wound, Mawloc gets the best price on T6 3+ in the dex making it a great tarpit, and 4x S6 AP2 attacks isn't "useless" especially since in reality it's often 8 attacks for 280 pts which is quite harmful to anything, more attacks than a CC Flyrant for the same price, with trade offs for the 2x TftD. It provides cover ignoring and tarpit ting and cheap as chips durability that Exocrine does not - I however run both anyway. It's not a bad unit by any means, definitely one of the better ones in the codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tag8833 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
I'm finding the best AT is Haywire Hive Guard for heavy armour.

Friends don't let friend take Haywire Hive Guard. The best AT for heavy armour is Carnifexes in Assault, Flyrants firing Warp Lance or E.Grubs, and Crones.

We'll with this undeniable well reasoned logic, I don't know why I ever thought otherwise!

Mind doing the stats of 240 pts of Haywire HG firing at a LandRaider, compared to a Flyrant firing Warp Lance and eGrubs for the same price?

So you want to compare the best target possible for one unit to our do everything utility knife? Gee I wonder how that's going to turn out.

Let's not consider ranges and movement speeds either.

Why not compare a crushing claw carnifex vs those same HG? See how useful that would be?

Uhhh no? Isn't that exactly what was being done in the first place though? On top of that, wasn't the statement made that WL eGrubs Flyrant (who needs many lucks to even roll WL) better at strictly AT? So why is the comparison of this an issue? On top of that, if we aren't taking HG because Flyrants already cover the role of AT, then what exactly is the issue with Mawloc again? This argument seems flawed in a roundabout manner.