The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Eldar Tactica p.318 & 319)

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**coredump**

Voidwraith wrote:

Except it DOES have Hit and Run, so it's not actually locked in combat 66% of the time. Also, just because it isn't a close combat killing machine doesn't mean it's S6 AP2 attacks (or it's 1 smash attempt) can't benefit a given situation.

After thinking about it...because you're definitely looking at bringing it in from reserves, you're point is valid...if you assault the turn after you arrive, you cannot re-burrow. It IS nice to have the option to do either...not sure why the option is a negative. Either way, my above comment is more in the spirit of starting on the board and having the potential to assault before burrowing (going second against a drop pod army, for example).

Yep, H&R doesn't help. You make the decision to either reburrow or to stay and assault, you can't do both. So anytime you decide to assault, it means you are giving up on TftD (for at least another turn)

This *used* to be a decent option, because Smash Attack let it deal with troublesome vehicles. Now...just what are you going to attack?

You're right...the only reason you're taking it is for the TftD, but you don't actually have to chance reserves...it can start on the board. Sure, the first TftD attack will land turn 3 after a turn 2 burrow, but that just means you'll potentially be landing a second TftD on turn 5, which is a pretty good time to deep strike a scoring unit anywhere you'd like on the board (if you need to grab an objective or drop a S6 AP2 ignores cover pie plate (X 2 potentially) on a unit that you may not be able to shift off an objective otherwise). I know I know...you want your first TftD to be on turn 2...it's not the end of the world to wait till turn 3, and it's guaranteed.

Which means, by the end of turn 4, you have spent 140pts and the only thing you have to show for it is 1 large blast attack (that hits twice) I want my units to do a lot more by the end of turn 4 than 1 attack. Especially an attack that has no scatter reduction and can be so easily thwarted by ruins or just putting your models in a line

In a landscape where people are complaining non-stop about how uninspired our codex is...it's a shame that we can't embrace a useful, unique option.

Unique, yes. Useful....??

When you place the marker; 55% of the time it will scatter far enough to miss *everything* that was under the marker. So in your scenario, there is a 55% chance that it does *nothing* by the end of turn 4. To me, that is not 'useful'. So you take two, to be sure. Now there is a 30% chance that you spend 280pts, and get nothing out of it the first 4 turns.

Even when they do come in and 'hit'.... what happens when those broadsides are in a ruin? Or they put the grav bikes in a line. (yay, 2 maybe 3 bikes die....)

Yes, if your opponent has a good target like bikes or broadsides or centurions, *and* they clump them up away from ruins, *and* you don't scatter..... you can do a lot of damage. (probably the best solution in the entire game for Invis centstar), but that is a lot of conditions. If you like to gamble... sometimes it will pay off for you. Just remember that there is a 30% chance for the mawloc to scatter completely off target *both* times and do nothing all game.

I want my 'useful' units to be more reliable than that.

**SHUPPET**

I think missing the scatter and placing a 6/6/6 3+ In your opponents side of the field is never going to be wasted points. I think if you are taking it just for a reburrowing TftD you are obviously better with a Mawloc. Take the TftD for what it is, 50/50 chance of a Repeating S6 covering ignoring blast, or double that with 2, and 8x S6 Ap2 attacks on the charge for 280 pts, and 12 freaking T6 wounds that will either have to be dealt with (every shot pointed at a Mawloc is extremely efficient for you) or ignored giving them free reign to tarpit better and more efficiently than a Garg squad as well as doing a lot more damage, to a much broader range of targets.

Exocrine > TftD. If you the cost effectiveness of the body isn't worth the points for you, don't take a Mawloc. Doesn't make it useless, the games when I've had one not be worth it's 140 pts are few and far in between.

**N.I.B.**

I ran 2 Mawlocs with Comms Relay the last 6th ed tournament. Was disappointed with them. They scattered a bit more than average and I rolled more than average 1's on the mishap table, which was enough to put me outside top 10. They had a place in a flying circus by sheer threat overload (I usually had 8 MCs in enemy deployment zone turn 2, not even running Skyblight) but then the Vector Strike nerf hit. Outside Skyblight I can't see myself taking Mawlocs, and Skyblight isn't what it was in 6th ed.
And as mentioned, they are easily neutralized by enemy units using tiered ruins (GW forgot or didn't bother to adress the Mawloc entry when they took away levels from the basic rules) or hugging the table edge (Mawloc scatters off).
I've yet to play test Mawlocs in Maelstrom games, but I doubt that the mobile objective grabbing will be enough to compensate the random.

Reliability/consistent output is king in competitive play. The more control you have over your army, the better. I'm looking to playtest this list for an upcoming 2000pts tournament (no formations allowed, nor Forgeworld, max 2 of the same HQ):

Dakka Flyrants, Electroshock
Dakka Flyrants, Electroshock
Tyranid Prime - Scything Talons, Bonesword/Whip, Maw Claws, Flesh Hooks, Toxin Sacs, Norn Crown

Venomthrope

26 Termagants (20 Devourers, 6 Fleshborer)
3 Ripper Swarm, deepstrike
3 Ripper Swarm, deepstrike
3 Ripper Swarm, deepstrike
3 Ripper Swarm, deepstrike

2 Dakkafex
2 Dakkafex
2 Dakkafex

1999 points

96 twinlinked S6 shots, 66 S4 shots. Decent backfield synapse. Fexes double as anti-AV13-14 in combat.

**Zach**

I lost my game against DE yesterday, but I had some uniquely amazingly bad rolling and it came out close, so I'd like to play it again.

Point is, he brought a hard counter in the form of 9 venoms and tons of trueborn and castled. So when my Mawloc came in and hit 8 venoms, she hit spot on and took out 3 and hull pointed the rest, at which point my tyrants swooped in and flooded them with haywire...and I proceeded to roll 3 1's : / the rest he saved via 5+ invuls. Then for my devourer shots I rolled most 1-2-3's for pen. : /

**Cambonimachine**

Just curious if the DLAB would make Mawlocs more efficient? Run the lictors up in their faces and turn 2 have the Locs pop up and soften everything up? Or was the discussion strictly based on their vehicle killing abilities?

**tag8833**

SHUPPET wrote:
tag8833 wrote:
SHUPPET wrote:
I'm finding the best AT is Haywire Hive Guard for heavy armour.

Friends don't let friend take Haywire Hive Guard. The best AT for heavy armour is Carnifexes in Assault, Flyrants firing Warp Lance or E.Grubs, and Crones.

We'll with this undeniable well reasoned logic, I don't know why I ever thought otherwise!

Mind doing the stats of 240 pts of Haywire HG firing at a LandRaider, compared to a Flyrant firing Warp Lance and eGrubs for the same price?

This isn't really something that you can run stats on. 1/3 chance to roll a hit on the scatter dice, but the distance scattered and direction make it hard to compute hits. If it hits, it will glance 67% of the time and Pen 17% of the time with a 0% chance to explode. Meanwhile a flyrant is never going to forfeit its Devourers fro E.Grubs without hitting at lease 2 vehicles, or 1 Vehicle and 4 marines. Warp lance's success depends on your psychic dice which are random. Assuming it goes off and is not denied it is going to Glance 2/3 * 1/6 or 11% of the time and Pen 2/3 * 4/6 or 44% of the time. 1/6 pens will be an explodes.

The reason Haywire hive guard suck:
1) Over costed. 3 Cost more than a Dakkafex who is more effective in assault against AV 13+ than they are in shooting
2) Unitasker. good at popping AV 13+. Worse than normal hive guard against everything else.
3) One shot per. That mean statistically 1 hit, and 2 scatters in a group of 3. At least one of those scatters is usually going to miss, so they can't pop an average vehicle in one round of shooting.
4) Short Range. 18" means vehicles can avoid them, and they usually have to run turn 1. For a total of 4 turns of maximum contribution with 2 turns per vehicle their top end game performance is about 2 vehicles.
5) Don't ignore cover. Vehicles can still take cover saves against them. This coupled with poor mobility will allow a good player to negate 1/2 of their hits.
6) Require Line Sight. They have to stand out in the open and take return fire to contribute in any way.

While some of the lesser units in the Tyranid codex are situationally useful, (Trygon Prime, Lictors, Genestealers, Warriors, Impaler Cannon Hive Guard), I can't summon to mind a situation where haywire Hive guard are better than normal hive guard. I've played against a 3 land raider list on several occasions, and I'm winning most of those games, and Haywire Hive Guard would make a victory harder. If they had made them Assault 2, ignore cover, then Haywire Hive guard might be useful, or maybe made it a 36" large blast. But with their current stats, no thanks.

**Korias1004**

coredump wrote:
Mawlocs come in turn 2-3, then have to worry about scatter, are ineffectual against vehicles or anything in ruins. They have no shooting, and cant assault the turn they come in. On their next turn, they have to choose between 4 WS3 attacks, or reburrow to try TftD again.

They used to be an assault threat against vehicles, but now they can't even do that.

I haven't tried this yet, but I have thought about it: what if we put ESG on a mawloc.

TftD is anti-infantry/light armor. So we don't get to assault first turn, but even if we DS scatter that template allows us to still most likely be in range to hit with it, which we only get one against a vehicle anyway. Also, if our opponent doesn't have many infantry choices available and does indeed have a crap ton of vehicles (possibly clumped together, but not guaranteed), then that allows for a good chance of multiple vehicles hit, with the right positioning of course.

As far as the utility of Mawlocs I'm right in the middle on them. I like to take them because that AP2 blast can do some hefty damage. Sometimes they have made they have proved their worth and made their cost back point for point in destruction, and others not. The problem I've been having with them is not that they don't reliably hit for me, it's that the wording of it says that once the model can be placed you must do so; ie no second blast. On the times where they don't eat enough models to make their cost back (and as I have yet tried the ESG trick) I find that my opponents dedicated as much firepower to destroying the Mawloc as possible to prevent a second TftD. This DOES give my other MCs and support units another turn to get that much closer, so there is that to consider as well.

**SHUPPET**

They can't take a thorax like Trygons unfortunately, otherwise they would be much better!

**Korias1004**

SHUPPET wrote:
They can't take a thorax like Trygons unfortunately, otherwise they would be much better!

....Crap, I've been reading their entry wrong then.....I thought for sure though.....

Maybe I was reading biomorphs as thorax biomorphs...I don't have my dex handy so I'll have to double check it when I get home.

Still, I feel they are still a good points sink; even if they don't hit much or don't take out much the amount of fire they will draw for that turn usually lets all my other MCs live another round to get closer or shoot more.

**Ratius**

Guys do you think this list would work? The idea is a deepstrike based theme.

1500 roughly

Tyrant with wings, AG and dev + hive commander
Deathleaper

Lictor
Lictor

Tervigon (outflanking)
30 gants

20 Gargoyles
4 Raveners with devs with Red Terror
3 Raveners with devs

Mawloc
Mawloc

**foto69man**

ductvader wrote:
I don't understand how so many people are losing synapse.

I've had a unit out of synapse maybe 10 times in the last three years.

How much synapse are you guys running?

Late reply, but eh...

Does it count losing synapse if I and my opponent both forget about my dark grey basecoated Rippers sitting in that dark grey buidling the entire game? lol...has happened more than once

**tag8833**

Ratius wrote:
Guys do you think this list would work? The idea is a deepstrike based theme.

1500 roughly

Tyrant with wings, AG and dev + hive commander
Deathleaper

Lictor
Lictor

Tervigon (outflanking)
30 gants

20 Gargoyles
4 Raveners with devs with Red Terror
3 Raveners with devs

Mawloc
Mawloc

This list doesn't really work because there isn't near enough Synapse. A good rule of thumb is 1 Synapse per 500 points. All you have is the Tervigon, and that is simply not enough. On the plus side, if you change the Raveners to Shrikes, you might be ok. It isn't a high powered list, but it might be functional. Your main problem is keeping the gants from running off the board when they fail synapse. I have a really, really successful (12-0-1) fast 1500 point list that I built based on Ductvader's Turn Two Tsunami list, and it has some similar models, so you might like it:

Spoiler:

The other thing you might consider is Deathleaper's Assasin Brood

**jackyratos**

Hi guys! This thread is just enormous...Lots of usefull tools, opinions and advise but... 161 pages! Couldn't it be "washed"? One month without internet and 20 pages to read at this time.
BTW, how do you deal with Tzeentch daemons? You know, summoning ones and 2++ screamers...

**Wilson**

jackyratos wrote:
Hi guys! This thread is just enormous...Lots of usefull tools, opinions and advise but... 161 pages! Couldn't it be "washed"? One month without internet and 20 pages to read at this time.
BTW, how do you deal with Tzeentch daemons? You know, summoning ones and 2++ screamers...

Summoned demon spam sucks. I've yet to lose to them- they can spam the board but they just do not put out enough offensive.

2++ screamers - ignore, tie up with gants and devour everything else!

**Tyran**

Wilson wrote:
jackyratos wrote:
Hi guys! This thread is just enormous...Lots of usefull tools, opinions and advise but... 161 pages! Couldn't it be "washed"? One month without internet and 20 pages to read at this time.
BTW, how do you deal with Tzeentch daemons? You know, summoning ones and 2++ screamers...

Summoned demon spam sucks. I've yet to lose to them- they can spam the board but they just do not put out enough offensive.

2++ screamers - ignore, tie up with gants and devour everything else!

The problem is something like this:

Tyran wrote:
Ok, here I present you 2 lists, the first one is a Screamerstar/Flying Circus hybrid:

Fateweaver - 300

Herald of Tzeentch - 45
Exalted Reward - 30
Mastery Level 3 - 50
Disc of Tzeentch - 25

Herald of Tzeentch - 45
Mastery Level 3 - 50
Disc of Tzeentch - 25
Greater Reward - 20
Lesser Reward - 10

Herald of Tzeentch - 45
Mastery Level 3 - 50
Disc of Tzeentch - 25
Lesser Reward - 10
Greater Reward - 20

12 Horrors of Tzeentch - 108

11 Horrors of Tzeentch - 99

5 Screamers of Tzeentch - 125

Daemon Prince - 145
Daemon of Tzeentch - 25
Daemonic Flight - 40
Warp-Forged Armour - 20
Greater Reward - 20
Greater Reward - 20
Psyker (Mastery Level 3) - 75
Lesser Reward - 10

Daemon Prince - 145
Daemon of Tzeentch - 25
Daemonic Flight - 40
Warp-Forged Armour - 20
Greater Reward - 20
Greater Reward - 20
Psyker (Mastery Level 3) - 75
Lesser Reward - 10

Aegis Defence Line - 50

The second one is Flying Circus with a mini Screamerstar.

Fateweaver - 300

Herald of Tzeentch - 45
Exalted Reward - 30
Mastery Level 3 - 50
Disc of Tzeentch - 25

12 Horrors of Tzeentch - 108

11 Horrors of Tzeentch - 99

3 Screamers of Tzeentch - 75

Daemon Prince - 145
Daemon of Tzeentch - 25
Daemonic Flight - 40
Warp-Forged Armour - 20
Greater Reward - 20
Greater Reward - 20
Psyker (Mastery Level 3) - 75
Lesser Reward - 10

Daemon Prince - 145
Daemon of Tzeentch - 25
Daemonic Flight - 40
Warp-Forged Armour - 20
Greater Reward - 20
Greater Reward - 20
Psyker (Mastery Level 3) - 75
Lesser Reward - 10

Daemon Prince - 145
Daemon of Tzeentch - 25
Daemonic Flight - 40
Warp-Forged Armour - 20
Greater Reward - 20
Greater Reward - 20
Psyker (Mastery Level 3) - 75
Lesser Reward - 10

Aegis Defence Line - 50

The idea here with both lists is that the Herald(s) get(s) the Malefic powers, trying to get Cursed Earth which will be used with the Grimoire for the 2++ rerolling failed.
The Daemon Princes on their part get the Telepathy powers, trying to get Shrouding and Invisibility. Shrouding, in combination with Jink will give us a 2+ cover saves, rerolling 1s thanks to being a Deamon of Tzeentch. When rolling the lesser reward, swap for the staff to get the +2 S.

Move the Daemon Princes together, gliding, all within 6" of the Prince(s) that has/have Shrouding, only the Fateweaver will swoop. If your opponent has either a lot of ignore cover weapons or scary CC units that can kill a Deamon Prince and you got Invisibility, the Daemon Prince with Shrouding should swoop, while the other one should glide and be invisible.
Also keep the Screamerstar close for the bonus of Cursed Earth. If for some reason you failed to get it/cast it or you failed the Grimoire's test, then be withing 6" of the Prince with Shrouding for the 2+ cover.

The Horrors should stay behind in the Aegis, go to ground if necessary.

If necessary, summon additional units depending on what do you need.

So what do you think?

**Zach**

^ Not as scary as youd think. : /

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Red Corsair wrote:

BTW you wouldn't happen to know who produces the buildings that were used in that tournament would you?

I asked, the terrain is for the game Dust.

http://store.fantasyflightgames.com/productdetails.cfm?SKU=DT040

The way you can assemble them can either make them great for Warhammer or a huge pain with all the levels, but I think they are good and modular.

**foto69man**

Had two games today, 1850 and 1500 vs Grey Knights, both purge the alien missions.

1st Game ran dual Dakka Flyrants, Harpy, Hive Crone, Malanthrope, StoneCrusher, and Dakka-Fex. Assorted others to fill out point(not listing as they really didn't contribute or influence the game). Game basically was me running laps with the 4 FMCs plinking away. His dreadknight got locked into CC with the stonecrusher the ENTIRE game. Malanthrope came in and helped to whittle him down. But yeah, wasn't the easiest of games for my opponent. That game is embodied by these two pictures...

"What's that in the distance...?"

"Oh crap...................."

All legit and proper movements to get them there too lol.

Second game his reserve rolls sucked hard. He conceded 3rd turn since nothing was coming on and he was pretty much tabled at that point. Weird things though after we played it out. Deathleaper and his Brood torn down some GK Termies. They seem way more durable than I thought they would be. 5+ save sucks, but eh...I can live with it. Thoughts?

Bad pic, but the other table half was mirrored with a ruin and forest just flipped sides.

**SHUPPET**

Deathleaper Assassin Brood? I too have found the Desthleaper surprisingly cost effective, although the formation seems very niche now.

EDIT: this is because 1 Lictor just doesn't compare to 4 Stealers for pmuch the same price and role, it's hard to justify Lictors at such a high cost

**Wilson**

Finished ( or pretty much finished anyway!) My Budget Dimachaeron.
I'm awful with green stuff but if you wanna make your own i'll be posting a How to very soon on http://40kbrawl.blogspot.co.uk

Loads more pictures over on my blog;
http://40kbrawl.blogspot.co.uk/2014/08/what-it-do-nephew-converting-one-giant_16.html

peace guys!

**Commander_Farsight**

Played against Jim's Nids a couple of days ago. I am not 110% on board with the Daemacheron as I am the Malanthrope. I shot down the Daemacheron and it did nothing, the Malanthrope on the other hand is AMAZING. I am tons more afraid of the bugs with the updates now

**Wilson**

Commander_Farsight wrote:
Played against Jim's Nids a couple of days ago. I am not 110% on board with the Daemacheron as I am the Malanthrope. I shot down the Daemacheron and it did nothing, the Malanthrope on the other hand is AMAZING. I am tons more afraid of the bugs with the updates now

all big nids are squishy at the end of the day but if a Dima gets into combat, whatever it is fighting with is most certainly boned.

**gigasnail**

@wilson that pose is sweet, man. nice job.

**foto69man**

Wilson wrote:

The cute little guy in the bottom corner here...what pieces did you use on him? I love the look more than regular lictors

**Wilson**

foto69man wrote:
Wilson wrote:

The cute little guy in the bottom corner here...what pieces did you use on him? I love the look more than regular lictors

That IS the regular lictor my man!

He's a cutie ain't he? I should finish him...

**SBG**

Lictors are one of my favorite models... If only the rules were better. I have 9 I'd really like to field one day.

**Wilson**

SBG wrote:
Lictors are one of my favorite models... If only the rules were better. I have 9 I'd really like to field one day.

Yep. Death leaper is cool too but not 130 pts cool.

Nor is it worth him taking the slot that belongs to another hive tyrant...

**foto69man**

Wilson wrote:
foto69man wrote:
Wilson wrote:

The cute little guy in the bottom corner here...what pieces did you use on him? I love the look more than regular lictors

That IS the regular lictor my man!

He's a cutie ain't he? I should finish him...

I guess the posing can dramatically change a model. I totally didn't associate him with the stock picture on GWs site. Wow...

P.S. I used Deathleaper and his Assassin Brood to pretty good effect today. Was against GK though.

**Xyptc**

I have a 20k game coming up next week against the new Space Wolves. My opponent wants to use 2x CAD, so I thought why not?

I was thinking of running something like the following:

1x Tyrant, Wings, 2x Devourers, Egrubs (240)

1x Tyrant, Wings, 2x Devourers, Egrubs (240)

1x Tyrant, Wings, Reaper, Scything Talons, OA, Adrenals, Egrubs (285)

1x Venomthrope (45)

1x Zoanthrope (50)

1x Zoanthrope (50)

15x Termagants (60)

15x Termagants (60)

15x Termagants (60)

30x Hormagaunts, Toxin Sacks (240)

1x Mawloc (140)

1x Mawloc (140)

Living Artillery Formation

1x Exocrine (170)

3x Biovores (120)

3x Tyranid Warriors, Barbed Strangler (100)

It comes to 2000 dead on, and I think it has what it takes. There are a few left-field choices here (Reaper Tyrant and the Hormagaunts), but with this many ML2 casters I am almost certain to get Catalyst on them, which makes them a royal pain to put down. The Reaper has also served me well in the past; this high I and good number of S8/AP2 attacks savage elite units like Marines with ease. He *is* expensive, but I have found that on a model like that OA really pays for itself as it is incredibly unlikely that he will whiff in combat.

Turn 1 will be about surviving, and then on turn 2 there should suddenly be a threat overload across the board as the fast units and Mawlocs get stuck in.

I have absolutely no idea what my opponent is going to bring. Has anyone played against the new SW yet? Is there anything in particular I should watch out for?

**Zach**

Another Venomthrope would really serve you well, Id drop a Zoey to gain another one. With that many swarms it will be difficult to keep everyone protected.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Started/Finished Tyrant #4 yesterday. His Devourer arms havent arrived from China yet, so they'll have to be added later.

I've worked up an image in photoshop of each Tyrants face, left to right. Im going to print it and put it in a laminate sheet, so I can lay down my psycher cards under each face, makes keeping track of them in game so much easier.

**Eldercaveman**

So one of the 40k clubs I attend has been having a tournament/league/thing over the last 5 months, one game a month, 2000 points, we switched to 7th edition for round 3, all opponents where known before hand and we could change our lists up to 3 times. The only restrictions that were in place was no Forge World (much to my annoyance). The last game was this Saturday and finished in second place, going unbeaten the whole way through. All of the lists I used and results etc can be found here if anyone wants to see in more detail... http://www.leicesterallscars.org/tournament.html