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This weekend I had a very pleasant experience with the Broodlord Hunting Pack formation. On my turn two of the three broods of 10 (not the one with the Broodlord sadly) arrived from reserve, deployed into a couple of large Ruins that were also being occupied by some Longfangs and a large unit of Grey Hunters respectively. They declared charges, weatheredthe Overwatch with the 4+ cover saves and proceeded to inflict extreme damage on the Wolves.

The Broodlord pack itself deployed in support of the brood finishing off the Grey Hunters the following turn, and between them they accounted for an enormous chunk of my opponent's army.

I remember reading many (many) pages back that someone else had been having a lot of success with the BLHP... is this how you were doing it? Turn 2 surprise assaults on Ruins heavy battlefields?

Xyptc wrote:
This weekend I had a very pleasant experience with the Broodlord Hunting Pack formation. On my turn two of the three broods of 10 (not the one with the Broodlord sadly) arrived from reserve, deployed into a couple of large Ruins that were also being occupied by some Longfangs and a large unit of Grey Hunters respectively. They declared charges, weatheredthe Overwatch with the 4+ cover saves and proceeded to inflict extreme damage on the Wolves.

The Broodlord pack itself deployed in support of the brood finishing off the Grey Hunters the following turn, and between them they accounted for an enormous chunk of my opponent's army.

I remember reading many (many) pages back that someone else had been having a lot of success with the BLHP... is this how you were doing it? Turn 2 surprise assaults on Ruins heavy battlefields?

So you arrived from reserve, assaulted and that's what made them good? Using them illegally? Or am I misreading?

Yeah, by my count, you should have weathered 1 full turn of shooting...followed by the overwatch. A unit of 10 genestealers should be @ roughly 4-5 strong after all of that with the 4+ cv save.

I've had much success with a Broodlord hunting pack and a fortification. giving them a midfield position to deploy inside is the best way to use this formation.

Eldercaveman wrote:

Xyptc wrote:
This weekend I had a very pleasant experience with the Broodlord Hunting Pack formation. On my turn two of the three broods of 10 (not the one with the Broodlord sadly) arrived from reserve, deployed into a couple of large Ruins that were also being occupied by some Longfangs and a large unit of Grey Hunters respectively. They declared charges, weatheredthe Overwatch with the 4+ cover saves and proceeded to inflict extreme damage on the Wolves.

The Broodlord pack itself deployed in support of the brood finishing off the Grey Hunters the following turn, and between them they accounted for an enormous chunk of my opponent's army.

I remember reading many (many) pages back that someone else had been having a lot of success with the BLHP... is this how you were doing it? Turn 2 surprise assaults on Ruins heavy battlefields?

So you arrived from reserve, assaulted and that's what made them good? Using them illegally? Or am I misreading?

You're not. That's how we played it/ I was under the impression that units arriving from reserve could not charge either, but my opponent seemed to think it was possible and we thumbed around in the book for a few minutes and couldn't find it. We shrugged and carried on.

If it's in there, can you direct me to it? I don't want to get my hopes up :p

 ductvader wrote:
I've had much success with a Broodlord hunting pack and a fortification. giving them a midfield position to deploy inside is the best way to use this formation.

Care to go into a little more depth? Where do you deploy the fort?

 SHUPPET wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
I've had much success with a Broodlord hunting pack and a fortification. giving them a midfield position to deploy inside is the best way to use this formation.

Care to go into a little more depth? Where do you deploy the fort?

E only way I can see this working is with an escape hatch, now that fortifications have to be in your deployment zone, but I don't know what changes have been made to escape hatches.

Are Carnifexes viable in competitive builds? If so, would Adrenal Glands be worthwhile on them for a S10 charge (alongside Double Devourers)?

BLHP is something that takes a little baiting, I often like to throw objectives out along the sides of the board or in hard to reach places when I know that my opponent has key specified fast or backfield objective grabbers. Place the fort near it...bastion or redoubt are best...and throw something expendable but useful inside it...like a venom or zoey. Before you roll for reserves, get the initial unit out. and deploy stealers inside to babysit the objective with a sudden fierce assault presence.

I've generally used this to disable backfield tactical drop pods and eldar jetbikes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Carnifex is the first or second strongest choice in the book.

Dual devourers are solid, mostly preferred...and adrenals are for extra running if you see fit, S10 is the minor aspect of having them.

Do you guys think we need skyblight/ artillery or other formations to stay competitive with the top codexes? We have some pretty strong generals with occasional net decked top codex lists... I want to represent tyranids and compete to as high a level as I can.

 syypher wrote:
Do you guys think we need skyblight/ artillery or other formations to stay competitive with the top codexes? We have some pretty strong generals with occasional net decked top codex lists... I want to represent tyranids and compete to as high a level as I can.

To be perfectly fair, Formations are the one thing we truly have an advantage with. Skyblight seems to be significantly more valuable with the MSU meta returning due to Objective Secured - and to be fair, having units of respawning, DSing Gargoyles and an additional Flyrant has never really been a bad thing for us.

luke1705 wrote:
To me, that seems sort of silly. Why wouldn't spawned troops be OS? It's not like Tyranids are itching to flood the board with tevigons and gants any more than daemons really need to summon and portaglyph 200 models into play? Makes for a boring game if you ask me, and by ruling in the opposite direction, it really makes it tough to want to run Tervigons. If the gribblies aren't OS, then that's a big hit to the nads.

Yeah, I actually grabbed my Codex and checked. It says spawned Termagants are Exactly like troops purchased. I guess it got washed out by "Nurf the Demon Factory!!!" ah heck, lets nurf Nids while we're at it, its the cool thing to do.

pinecone77 wrote:

luke1705 wrote:
To me, that seems sort of silly. Why wouldn't spawned troops be OS? It's not like Tyranids are itching to flood the board with tevigons and gants any more than daemons really need to summon and portaglyph 200 models into play? Makes for a boring game if you ask me, and by ruling in the opposite direction, it really makes it tough to want to run Tervigons. If the gribblies aren't OS, then that's a big hit to the nads.

Yeah, I actually grabbed my Codex and checked. It says spawned Termagants are Exactly like troops purchased. I guess it got washed out by "Nurf the Demon Factory!!!" ah heck, lets nurf Nids while we're at it, its the cool thing to do.

Yeah, when I was talking to Reece, the main guy behind the BAO and the LVO GT's, he actually agreed that the spawned gants should be ObSec.

However, his FAQ's isn't just based on his opinions. He actually debates and discusses the issues with a bunch of other TO's. I am assuming they decided/voted on making the spawned gants non-ObSec to make it fair for every other spawned units in the game.

 DarkStarSabre wrote:

 syypher wrote:
Do you guys think we need skyblight/ artillery or other formations to stay competitive with the top codexes? We have some pretty strong generals with occasional net decked top codex lists... I want to represent tyranids and compete to as high a level as I can.

To be perfectly fair, Formations are the one thing we truly have an advantage with. Skyblight seems to be significantly more valuable with the MSU meta returning due to Objective Secured - and to be fair, having units of respawning, DSing Gargoyles and an additional Flyrant has never really been a bad thing for us.

I like Skyblight as well but I'm not a big fan of the Harpies >_< This is one of the reasons I was thinking about going the Artillery route. It lets me make large tarpit units without such a huge point investment into a detachment. I understand you can make the Gargoyles a large brood but the 300pt cost for the Harpies kind of takes away from being able to spam 2-3 Dakkafexes on top of that. Artillery doesn't eat as much points and lets me take more of the powerhouse MCs we have. Of course this is all theory craft on my part, I'm not really sure... since the major draw back is I can still take large Gargoyle broods but now they aren't OS :/

Do you guys like Harpies? If so why?

 SHUPPET wrote:
I agree with you on Rippers, but why Horms over Terms & Rips? Not doubting you, just hoping to learn

Fleet + Bounding Leap keep them ahead of MCs (they don't get in the way), and gets them to Objectives faster. It also helps them more reliably make charges. Because 10 Fleshborer TGaunts aren't really going to give you anything in shooting (50% hit, 50% Wound, 33% failed saves, so < 1 dead marine on average), you might as well pay the extra point per model.

Frozocrone wrote:
Are Carnifexes viable in competitive builds? If so, would Adrenal Glands be worthwhile on them for a S10 charge (alongside Double Devourers)?

Yes. Dakkafexes are really, really good. Not Flyrant good, or Venom / Malanthrope good, but they come in right after that.

Adrenal Glands are debatable. Some people swear by them. The problem is, Dakkafexes do much of their damage with Hammer of Wrath, and Adrenal do not boost their strength for that. The other drawback is that it makes a unit that ins't the most survivable more expensive. But on the plus side, charges are much more reliable, and you can ID centurions, and threaten walkers a bit more. I never take them.

 syypher wrote:
Do you guys think we need skyblight/ artillery or other formations to stay competitive with the top codexes? We have some pretty strong generals with occasional net decked top codex lists... I want to represent tyranids and compete to as high a level as I can.

We need something that isn't in the base rule book. It might be an Ally. It might be a Lord of War. It might be Formations. Otherwise we get stomped by many, many top tier lists, and even quite a few mid tier lists.

 syypher wrote:
Do you guys like Harpies? If so why?

Harpies can be situationally useful against Ork Green Tide or Guard blob. Otherwise they are not very good. Even in those favorable matchups, crones are often going to be better because they ignore cover. Harpies took pretty much every nerf 7th edition had to offer.

First lists I'm throwing around in my theory crafting with all of your guys help. (Thanks btw!!) I have a couple ripper swarms only right now so this is also going to be my buy list.

What do you guys think is a better TAC list? How would you modify it to give it more teeth if you could? (A lot of strong armies and net decked lists where I play)

List1
CAD1
Hive Tyrant (Dual TL Devourers BLW + Egrubs + Wings)
Hive Tyrant (Dual TL Devourers BLW + Egrubs + Wings)
Malanthrope
Ripper Swarm + DS
Ripper Swarm + DS
Ripper Swarm + DS
18 Gargoyles
17 Gargoyles
Hive Crone
Carnifex + Dual TL Devourer BLW
Carnifex + Dual TL Devourer BLW
Carnifex + Dual TL Devourer BLW
CAD2
Hive Tyrant (Dual TL Devourers BLW + Egrubs + Wings)
Ripper Swarm + DS
Ripper Swarm + DS


List2
CAD1
Hive Tyrant (Dual TL Devourers BLW + Egrubs + Wings)
Hive Tyrant (Dual TL Devourers BLW + Egrubs + Wings)
Malanthrope
Ripper Swarm + DS
20 Termagant Brood (15 Spike Rifle + 5 Devourers)
20 Gargoyles
Carnifex + Dual TL Devourer BLW
Carnifex + Dual TL Devourer BLW
CAD2
Hive Tyrant (Dual TL Devourers BLW + Egrubs + Wings)
Ripper Swarm + DS
Ripper Swarm + DS
Living Artillery Formation:
Tyranid Warrior Brood (+Venom Cannon)
3 Biovore Brood
Exocrine

 syypher wrote:
First lists I'm throwing around in my theory crafting with all of your guys help. (Thanks btw!!) I have a couple ripper swarms only right now so this is also going to be my buy list.

What do you guys think is a better TAC list? How would you modify it to give it more teeth if you could? (A lot of strong armies and net decked lists where I play)

List1

Spoiler:

CAD1
Hive Tyrant (Dual TL Devourers BLW + Egrubs + Wings)
Hive Tyrant (Dual TL Devourers BLW + Egrubs + Wings)
Malanthrope
Ripper Swarm + DS
Ripper Swarm + DS
Ripper Swarm + DS
18 Gargoyles
17 Gargoyles
Hive Crone
Carnifex + Dual TL Devourer BLW
Carnifex + Dual TL Devourer BLW
Carnifex + Dual TL Devourer BLW
CAD2
Hive Tyrant (Dual TL Devourers BLW + Egrubs + Wings)
Ripper Swarm + DS
Ripper Swarm + DS

Way too little synapse. Flyrants don't really count as synapse. Double CAD is frowned upon where I'm from. It will quickly get you branded WAC, and make it hard for you to get games in the future. Luckily, you don't need double CAD to do what you are doing. Just draw the 3rd Tyrant from an Allied detachment. Drop 2 Ripper squads, and replace them with either a 2nd Malan or 2 single squads of zoeys, dropping one or two gargoyles to get the free points. 2nd List is better.

 syypher wrote:
List2

Spoiler:

CAD1
Hive Tyrant (Dual TL Devourers BLW + Egrubs + Wings)
Hive Tyrant (Dual TL Devourers BLW + Egrubs + Wings)
Malanthrope
Ripper Swarm + DS
20 Termagant Brood (15 Spike Rifle + 5 Devourers)
20 Gargoyles
Carnifex + Dual TL Devourer BLW
Carnifex + Dual TL Devourer BLW
CAD2
Hive Tyrant (Dual TL Devourers BLW + Egrubs + Wings)
Ripper Swarm + DS
Ripper Swarm + DS
Living Artillery Formation:
Tyranid Warrior Brood (+Venom Cannon)
3 Biovore Brood
Exocrine

Good luck ever finding a game when you are running 2 CAD and a Formation. Ever since BAO came out with the 2 source restriction, that has been a pretty common middle ground. But to put it another way, how would you like to face 7 Riptides, or 15 Drop pods? Drop your second CAD. Pick up something to replace it like a Malanthrope and a Crone. I assume you have Termagants with Spike Rifles. Because if not, you should probably stick to one of the better wargear options when you model them.

I would use either of these as a buy list. Get yourself to 1000 points, play a couple of games at that level and then decide where you want to go from there. You are definitely on the right track, so draw form these lists to pick units to include in your 1000 point list. Here is a suggestion that takes units you would probably want either way.

 syypher wrote:
First lists I'm throwing around in my theory crafting with all of your guys help. (Thanks btw!!) I have a couple ripper swarms only right now so this is also going to be my buy list.

What do you guys think is a better TAC list? How would you modify it to give it more teeth if you could? (A lot of strong armies and net decked lists where I play)

List1
CAD1
Hive Tyrant (Dual TL Devourers BLW + Egrubs + Wings)
Hive Tyrant (Dual TL Devourers BLW + Egrubs + Wings)
Malanthrope
Ripper Swarm + DS
Ripper Swarm + DS
Ripper Swarm + DS
18 Gargoyles
17 Gargoyles
Hive Crone
Carnifex + Dual TL Devourer BLW
Carnifex + Dual TL Devourer BLW
Carnifex + Dual TL Devourer BLW
CAD2
Hive Tyrant (Dual TL Devourers BLW + Egrubs + Wings)
Ripper Swarm + DS
Ripper Swarm + DS

You don't need that many rippers. I'd recommend no more than 4 units of rippers. Use the additional points to bulk up on your gargoyles.

List2
CAD1
Hive Tyrant (Dual TL Devourers BLW + Egrubs + Wings)
Hive Tyrant (Dual TL Devourers BLW + Egrubs + Wings)
Malanthrope
Ripper Swarm + DS
20 Termagant Brood (15 Spike Rifle + 5 Devourers)
20 Gargoyles
Carnifex + Dual TL Devourer BLW
Carnifex + Dual TL Devourer BLW
CAD2
Hive Tyrant (Dual TL Devourers BLW + Egrubs + Wings)
Ripper Swarm + DS
Ripper Swarm + DS
Living Artillery Formation:
Tyranid Warrior Brood (+Venom Cannon)
3 Biovore Brood
Exocrine

For list #2, if you are thinking about bringing this to a tournament, better check with the TO (Tournament organizer). Most larger tournaments (the GT's) only allow a maximum of 2 sources. Your List #2 has 3 - 2 CAD's and 1 formation. That is usually not allowed at the bigger tourneys.

Otherwise, I like this list.

Oh... I really didn't know or understand the sources thing until now when you guys explained it. Makes sense though thanks for explaining it.

1) So even with the Malanthrope out people are still leaning towards the Zoans?

2) I haven't modeled the Termagants yet so is Fleshborers the better choice for the non-devourer ones?


I've edited the 2nd list with your guys suggestions. What do you think of it now? Kind of fear that my "tarpits" are no longer very... tarpit worthy...

Hive Tyrant (Dual TL Devourers BLW + Egrubs + Wings)
Hive Tyrant (Dual TL Devourers BLW + Egrubs + Wings)
Malanthrope
Malanthrope
Ripper Swarm + DS
15 Termagant Brood (10 Fleshborers + 5 Devourers)
14 Gargoyles
Hive Crone
Carnifex + Dual TL Devourer BLW
Carnifex + Dual TL Devourer BLW
Carnifex + Dual TL Devourer BLW

Living Artillery Formation:
Tyranid Warrior Brood (+Venom Cannon)
3 Biovore Brood
Exocrine

I prefer Spinefists.

 syypher wrote:
So even with the Malanthrope out people are still leaning towards the Zoans?

The Malanthrope is better, but also costs more. In a smaller point game a Zoey might be sufficient.

 syypher wrote:
I haven't modeled the Termagants yet so is Fleshborers the better choice for the non-devourer ones?

Fleshborers or Spinefists. Kinda depends on what you expect to face. If you are unsure, go for Fleshborers. You can't really go wrong there. You don't need an 18" gun for your front ranks, because you want to make certain you back rank Devourers have range (18"), so your front ranks will always be closer, usually within 12".

Fleshborers are better against t5, t7 and av10, Spinefists are the same against t4 and better against anything else.

Don't worry....double CAD IS the way of the future, it's just taking everyone (the TOs) awhile to come around. As each new codex comes out...it will be more and more apparent that holding everyone back is ridiculous and unproductive.

Heck...just look at the Ork codex. Formations, a heavy slot that's filled with amazingly useful, cheap options, and a number of must have HQ units all add up to multi-CAD lists that can compete with the big boys. It's OBVIOUS that it was never meant to be fielded as one single CAD, and forcing the new books into the old paradigm just because "it's what we're used to" is short sighted, as well as damaging to the development of the meta.

What's everyone afraid of anyway? Everyone knows that smart gamers will figure out ways to make power-lists no matter what restrictions are put in place. There are PLENTY of rules most of us would like to see tweaked/changed (ignore cover could use some sort of nerf, for example), but we just accept the Rulebook's written word as gospel when it comes to 99% of what's provided. Why is Multi-Cad so hard to adopt? It's right there on page 118 ("No limit to the number of Detachments a Battle-forged army can include")

Let go of the reigns...the horses know the way home...

 syypher wrote:
Oh... I really didn't know or understand the sources thing until now when you guys explained it. Makes sense though thanks for explaining it.

1) So even with the Malanthrope out people are still leaning towards the Zoans?

2) I haven't modeled the Termagants yet so is Fleshborers the better choice for the non-devourer ones?


I've edited the 2nd list with your guys suggestions. What do you think of it now? Kind of fear that my "tarpits" are no longer very... tarpit worthy...

Hive Tyrant (Dual TL Devourers BLW + Egrubs + Wings)
Hive Tyrant (Dual TL Devourers BLW + Egrubs + Wings)
Malanthrope
Malanthrope
Ripper Swarm + DS
15 Termagant Brood (10 Fleshborers + 5 Devourers)
14 Gargoyles
Hive Crone
Carnifex + Dual TL Devourer BLW
Carnifex + Dual TL Devourer BLW
Carnifex + Dual TL Devourer BLW

Living Artillery Formation:
Tyranid Warrior Brood (+Venom Cannon)
3 Biovore Brood
Exocrine

Malanthropes are far superior, even in smaller games. There is never an occassion not to take them unless you are playing really small games (i.e. 500-pts or less) or you want to go psyker-spam.

Fleshborers or spinefists are almost the same. Spinefists are better against lower toughness models and flyers. Fleshborers are better against higher toughness models and vehicles (for hitting rear armor). Frankly, I normally run fleshborers as I use my FMC's to take out other flyers and I have plenty of anti-horde weaponry (and also because all of my gants were modeled with fleshborers from previous editions).

With regards to your list, your really don't need a screening unit. The only reason why I took screening units before were to protect my tervigons in my previous lists. Everything else I view as sacrificial. I really don't care if my opponent assaults my carnifexes or whatever. I'll just spread them out so that if my opponent wanted to assault them, it would just take his assault units out of position. As for mobile cover, well, gargoyles work well enough for that.

I recommend the following changes to your list:

Reduce the number of termagants to 10 and take out their devourers. Then increase the number of gargoyles. If you are looking for a purely screening unit, then I'd recommend swapping out the gargoyles for hormagants.

Everything else is good.

 syypher wrote:
Oh... I really didn't know or understand the sources thing until now when you guys explained it. Makes sense though thanks for explaining it.

1) So even with the Malanthrope out people are still leaning towards the Zoans?

2) I haven't modeled the Termagants yet so is Fleshborers the better choice for the non-devourer ones?


I've edited the 2nd list with your guys suggestions. What do you think of it now? Kind of fear that my "tarpits" are no longer very... tarpit worthy...

Hive Tyrant (Dual TL Devourers BLW + Egrubs + Wings)
Hive Tyrant (Dual TL Devourers BLW + Egrubs + Wings)
Malanthrope
Malanthrope
Ripper Swarm + DS
15 Termagant Brood (10 Fleshborers + 5 Devourers)
14 Gargoyles
Hive Crone
Carnifex + Dual TL Devourer BLW
Carnifex + Dual TL Devourer BLW
Carnifex + Dual TL Devourer BLW

Living Artillery Formation:
Tyranid Warrior Brood (+Venom Cannon)
3 Biovore Brood
Exocrine

Looks kinda nice. It might sound crazy, but I would drop one Carnifex, and buy two Broods of Hormagaunts as bubble wrap. Or just one Brood. The Gargoyles can screen just fine...different styles look for different units.

I like Spinefists, but that is for artistic reasons, the diff in play is real hard to notice (likely why it costs no points either way) I would not use any Devilgaunts in this list though, just buy more models (x20 Brood) You'll probibly be happier if you hold back one Malanthrope to babysit the LA at least at the start, to protect from counter battery.

The other possible change would be to swap a Dakkafex for a second Crone, but that is dependant on your local "meta" it's real hard to bet against Dakkafexen.

JY2, I wonder if your feeling on the Barbed Hieradule has changed from 6th (when you wrote the LoW tactica) to now.

I had my first experience playing him on Saturday when I took him into a 10K per side APOC game. Turn 1 he popped a Monolith. Turn 2 he killed 3 crisis suites, assaulted, and swept a unit of 115 Necron warriors with 2 attached ICs. There were both a Transcendent C'Tan (Hiding behind the monolith I popped), and a Tesseract Vault in the game, and they are both much scarier than the Barbed Hieradule, but he took quite a lot of fire. 18 Broadsides, 3 fusion suites, and 3 Riptides shot at him on one turn.

Suffice to say, my in game experience far exceeded my expectations based on reading his rules.

 jy2 wrote:

 syypher wrote:
Oh... I really didn't know or understand the sources thing until now when you guys explained it. Makes sense though thanks for explaining it.

1) So even with the Malanthrope out people are still leaning towards the Zoans?

2) I haven't modeled the Termagants yet so is Fleshborers the better choice for the non-devourer ones?


I've edited the 2nd list with your guys suggestions. What do you think of it now? Kind of fear that my "tarpits" are no longer very... tarpit worthy...

Hive Tyrant (Dual TL Devourers BLW + Egrubs + Wings)
Hive Tyrant (Dual TL Devourers BLW + Egrubs + Wings)
Malanthrope
Malanthrope
Ripper Swarm + DS
15 Termagant Brood (10 Fleshborers + 5 Devourers)
14 Gargoyles
Hive Crone
Carnifex + Dual TL Devourer BLW
Carnifex + Dual TL Devourer BLW
Carnifex + Dual TL Devourer BLW

Living Artillery Formation:
Tyranid Warrior Brood (+Venom Cannon)
3 Biovore Brood
Exocrine

Malanthropes are far superior, even in smaller games. There is never an occassion not to take them unless you are playing really small games (i.e. 500-pts or less) or you want to go psyker-spam.

Fleshborers or spinefists are almost the same. Spinefists are better against lower toughness models and flyers. Fleshborers are better against higher toughness models and vehicles (for hitting rear armor). Frankly, I normally run fleshborers as I use my FMC's to take out other flyers and I have plenty of anti-horde weaponry (and also because all of my gants were modeled with fleshborers from previous editions).

With regards to your list, your really don't need a screening unit. The only reason why I took screening units before were to protect my tervigons in my previous lists. Everything else I view as sacrificial. I really don't care if my opponent assaults my carnifexes or whatever. I'll just spread them out so that if my opponent wanted to assault them, it would just take his assault units out of position. As for mobile cover, well, gargoyles work well enough for that.

I recommend the following changes to your list:

Reduce the number of termagants to 10 and take out their devourers. Then increase the number of gargoyles. If you are looking for a purely screening unit, then I'd recommend swapping out the gargoyles for hormagants.

Everything else is good.

Thanks everyone! Got a couple questions though that spawned from that now though...

1) Why don't I need a screening unit jy2? It seems like there are things out there that we just can't deal with without putting TOO much attention to. Like Wraightknights, Dreadknights, Ctans etc. Like I said before guys, our meta is really competitive stuff. I see a lot of tri-WKs, Ctans etc. By what I've read on this thread and other tyranid forums, the best way we can deal with those things are just tarpitting them down for as long as we can.

2) @jy2: Why reduce the Termagants to 10 instead of just swapping them out with a DS Ripper unit? Is it so they can provide some cover turn 1?

3) @pinecone77: Why Hormagants over Termagants?

4) TBH, and this is just by reading the forums... Is the best way to really deal with Ctans, Wraightknights, Imperial Knights etc. just to tarpit them? In the past I've usually played the "top tier" codexes and for my targets that were a high priority, I could usually find some way to shoot or melee it to death. I'm having a hard time figuring out the puzzle for Nids in how to deal with "tough" targets. Like the ones I listed. T9 3+ 4++ Ctans... T8 3+ Wraightknights... IKs... it just seems TOO overwhelming. A lot of our LFGS will take 3-4 IKs and 2-3 WKs on a regular basis. I have NOTHING against it and I like fighting hard armies... but I don't know what tools best to use in our codex. Thoughts?

He's wrong, while you needn't be dedicating points toward screening (both cover and bubble wrap/tarpit) units, but your mandatory troops should be put to good work giving your Carnifexes & Exocrine a 3+ save. You are crazy to throw this away. 20 Gants are less of a waste than any other unit in the des. I prefer Terms that 20 pts separation between Horms & Terms can be the difference between one MC and a better one. If that wasn't the case Id probably upgrade to the Horms.

 SHUPPET wrote:
I agree with you on Rippers, but why Horms over Terms & Rips? Not doubting you, just hoping to learn

I'd think the main thing is that Hormagaunts can cover more ground in the course of the game than the other troop options, meaning they can potentially secure more objectives in Maelstrom. Termagants are more for protecting objectives than seizing them and Rippers are more or less one use once they have burrowed in.

Basically think of them as being a 1 point Fleet upgrade for Termagants that exchanges their ranged capability for an enhanced run and some combat boosts.

tag8833 wrote:

 syypher wrote:
Do you guys like Harpies? If so why?

Harpies can be situationally useful against Ork Green Tide or Guard blob. Otherwise they are not very good. Even in those favorable matchups, crones are often going to be better because they ignore cover.

Stock I'd somewhat agree, but what about the Heavy Venom Cannon variant as a TAC choice? The HVC is arguably more reliable than Tentaclids against vehicles (both are going to be glancing things to death, but the HVC is more accurate, multiple use, and scores pens easier for debilitating effects/disabling quantum shielding) and can be turned against infantry without sacrificing too much utility.

tag8833 wrote:

Harpies took pretty much every nerf 7th edition had to offer.

I'm not sure I agree. The only one that really hurts them is the loss of the ability to drop out of swooping to assault (making it harder to use Sonic Screech) and the Smash nerf. They weren't really impacted by the Vector Strike nerf since they are generally going to use their Spore Cysts (their strength is too low to reliably hurt vehicles). They were arguably buffed with the new rules for Grounding and the new rules (or lack thereof) for Blasts vs Ruins.

 syypher wrote:
1) Why don't I need a screening unit jy2? It seems like there are things out there that we just can't deal with without putting TOO much attention to. Like Wraightknights, Dreadknights, Ctans etc. Like I said before guys, our meta is really competitive stuff. I see a lot of tri-WKs, Ctans etc. By what I've read on this thread and other tyranid forums, the best way we can deal with those things are just tarpitting them down for as long as we can.

A screen and a tarpit are different things. I think what he meant is that the gargoyles provided enough of a screen that you didn't need the Gants. He is probably right, but I would encourage you to get a few games under your belt before being too definitive on these things. JY2 has a very specific play style that tends to involve a more maneuver based finesses. I play a style that might be called "Threat neutralization" I'm much more aggressive, most likely to my detriment, though I am very, very successful in my local meta.

 syypher wrote:
2) @jy2: Why reduce the Termagants to 10 instead of just swapping them out with a DS Ripper unit? Is it so they can provide some cover turn 1?

His suggestion is probably a good one. The thing is, a unit needs to reach a certain lethality threshold to be worth spending additional points on. 5 Devourers do not get it quite there. 10 Devourers might.

 syypher wrote:
3) @pinecone77: Why Hormagants over Termagants?

Strat_N8 gave the most consice summation of the differences between Rippers, Terms, and Horms I've seen in a long, long time. He is 100% right.

 syypher wrote:
4) TBH, and this is just by reading the forums... Is the best way to really deal with Ctans, Wraightknights, Imperial Knights etc. just to tarpit them? In the past I've usually played the "top tier" codexes and for my targets that were a high priority, I could usually find some way to shoot or melee it to death. I'm having a hard time figuring out the puzzle for Nids in how to deal with "tough" targets. Like the ones I listed. T9 3+ 4++ Ctans... T8 3+ Wraightknights... IKs... it just seems TOO overwhelming. A lot of our LFGS will take 3-4 IKs and 2-3 WKs on a regular basis. I have NOTHING against it and I like fighting hard armies... but I don't know what tools best to use in our codex. Thoughts?

The most threatening thing a Wraith Knight or Ctan will ever see is a squad of 20 Hormagants with Poison. Imperial Knights are another matter. Best way to take them out is Flying Circus. Flyrants and Crones can down a Knight, remaining fairly safe while doing so. Carnifexes are good at finishing it off in assault, but because Knights are faster, it is hard to pull it off. The main thing to remember is Knights have trouble scoring. You don't need to kill the knights to win. Just out score them. Also remember that you don't have to play A-Holes. There is supposedly a guy in my area who plays 5 Knights. I've never met him, but I'm told he only plays kill points, and won't do any other mission type. Because of this I'm pretty sure no one has ever agreed to play him more than once. A certain type of player is not fun to play against.

I don't have 20 Poison Gaunts in my TAC list, so when I see things like a Wraith Knight, I tarpit them when I can. Gargoyles work good for this. If I run into Knights, I surround them without assaulting with things like Gargoyles. It takes away their greatest asset (mobility). Tarpitting them doesn't work as well as Wraith Knights, but their shooting isn't the scariest thing in the world for most Tyranid lists. An alternative options is to bring out The Tyranid LOW.