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2014/09/17 21:30:13
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (New Batrep on p.170)
coredump wrote: Wow tag, that is a lot of Math... unfortunately almost all of it misses the point of the issue.
.....
Overall, upgraded genestealers kill 1.3% less marines per point spent on them than Devourer Gants, While base genestealers kill 18.2% more marines than Fleshgants per point. Overall Genestealers are more killy, though this isn't a great comparison because it is shooting vs assault.
Again missing the point.... this is not a comparison between Gaunts vs Stealers. We all know stealers suck, the point is what is the best way to take stealers....
Yep. I got a little caught up in Gants vs Stealers, and sidestepped the issue a bit.
coredump wrote: STs are not a big upgrade, they are a 28% increase in points, and a 50% increase in offense. Sure it makes the brood *slightly* less resilient, but it makes *NO NEGATIVE DIFFERENCE* until 80% of the brood has been wiped out. But it does make a positive difference from the very first attack.
It *barely* effects the charge, but does help on subsequent rounds; and it helps a lot on multi-charges. *Staying* in combat is the job of a tarpit unit, get some gaunts. Stealers want to hit, do damage, wait *one* turn, and get out so they can hit somewhere else.
ST helps with this, because most of the increase is in the subsequent rounds.
I see your point here. I'm not sure if I agree with you. I think one of the jobs of Genestealers includes tarpitting units. If I can pull off a charge onto a Wraith Knight or Riptide I'm going to do it. If I can't kill a a walker in shooting, in go the Genestealers. If I have the option to charge at Devastators or Tac Marines, I'm charging the Devastators. Their High weapon's skill makes them a formidable tarpit. I almost always send them after the unit in range that is most threatening to me in my opponent's shooting phase, and my worst fear when I charge something with Genestealers is that I will kill it on the turn I charge, and not get to stay safe in combat next turn. This leads me to do odd things like reroll charges that are too big, or conga line my stealers farther away from the model(s) that I'm charging. If they can stay locked for my opponent's 2nd turn, I will have had time to mobilize the rest of my army and neutralize other shooting, so even if I win combat on my turn 3, I am safer.
It might be that Scything Talons wouldn't get in the way of this. You've made a good enough case that I will do some test games when I have appropriate opponents.
coredump wrote: (Plus, you change how you determined percentages, to be consistent, devourers increase damage by 200%, not 300%)
You are correct. My bad. Changed how I was doing calculation 1/2 way through, and missed this when I went back to correct.
Firstly, and this is important. Genestealers suck. They are overcosted by 1/2 and lack the mobility options of Shrikes and Raveners (who have a similar killing power). Even Hormagants are faster. They lack the survivability of a house fly, and they need support to be effective. There are very, very few scenarios where they would make a better choice than Shrikes or Raveners in an army. Or even Hormagants.
However, there are ways to use them and win some games. Here are 10 suggestions to help you pull this off.
1) Don't take upgrades. Genestealers are too expensive already, and upgrades just make them more so. Quantity over Quality here.
1A) that includes a broodlord. It is always better to take more genestealers than a broodlord. Don't be impressed with his pinning ability. Most things genestealers want to assault can't be pinned. If it can be pinned (i.e. Necrons) it still needs to fail a pinning test at -2, and that just isn't going to happen often. It will work for you once in 5 games, and anything that inconsistent is not worth it.
2) Run them in large squads. 15 is a good number. Never less than 10. This helps with support as well.
3) Support them. There are two ways to do so.
3A) Malanthropes. To be useful at all, Genestealers need shrouded. To be effective they need preferred enemy. The Malanthrope can help with both. It can also tank wounds on its 3+, and eat challenges. If Genestealers could take a Malanthrope instead of a brood lord, they would be a very good unit. I think 2 Malanthropes are best if you are running Genestealers.
3B) Venom + Swarmlord. Swarmlord can give Genestealers furious charge, preferred enemy, and potentially Feel No Pain. That is a ton of support. If only it didn't come in such an expensive package.
4) Don't outflank them. It may seem like you can outflank them as a way to offset their abysmal mobility. However, if you do so, the might not come in turn 2, and they can't start seriously contributing until turn 3 or 4. It is a costly unit to not have contribute for 1/2 of the game.
5) Do Infiltrate them. Unless you are facing drop pods, or are confident you opponent will put something in range for a turn 1 charge, you want these genestealers at midfield asap. However there are some tricks.
5A) Focus fire is not a part of the 7th edition rulebook. Abuse this. Infiltrate the Genestealers to midfield making sure that as many as possible are in ruins, and that those models are closer to the enemy than the models out of ruins.
5B) Remember the support. Congaline the genestealers back to your deployment zone to make sure they get Shrouded from a venom or malan. If you do this, the 1st few genestealers get a 2+ cover save.
5C) Fear Flamers. If you enemy has flamers in their army you want to infiltrate somewhere that the flamers can't get to you on turn 1.
6) Distract your opponent. Remember that the second someone wants to kill a mob of genestealers, they all drop dead instantly. Give them something else that they want to kill. Flyrants can sometimes do this. Gargoyles with better mobility can seem scarier. Lictors can infiltrate, and you can talk up their leathality. Deathleaper is usefule here.
7) Gargoyles. Genestealers are bad at being overwatched. That means you've got to get something to them ASAP to help them eat overwatch. Gargoyles are that thing. Also use the gargoyles to screen genestealers whenever possible. Hormagants can work this way, but are not as good as gargoyles.
7A) Sometimes you can use gants or gargoyles to bring more units into a combat. Because combat results are all added together, you might be able to do enough wounds with your genestealers to sweep a couple units at a time. If not, once in a while you can use this trick to keep the genestealers in combat on your opponent's turn.
8) Multi-Assault. Genestealers suffer from a similar problem to the Dima. In the current age of min sized squads, they can kill those squads too effectively, and not stay locked in combat so that they can survive opponent's shooting. However, Genestealers have a solution to this that Dima's don't. With many models, they can multi assault. A good choice is to multi-assault them into a Rhino or other vehicle, and also into a unit that they can stay locked with. Try to put as many attacks in the first round against the vehicle so that you don't wipe out the other unit. You can always kill them on your opponent's turn.
9) Don't take them against opponents who ignore cover Without a cover save they are dead. Wave serpent spam, Tau are genestealer kryptonite.
10) Take something else as well. Even if you follow all of these steps, and get lucky in the game, your genestealers are probably only good for 1 big assault. That means you need something else in your army which can mop up the rest of your opponent's forces. Once your genestealers get below 5, drop them back to an objective. They are done.
We aren't going to see Genestealers at top table any time soon, but if you follow these suggestions you can use them to help you win games.
I agree with your tactica in relation to the original query (how to use big blocks of genestealers) but there's a couple of things I'd add.
--Broodlords can be usefull for a couple reasons.
One, you can take a small brood of stealers, add the broodlord and make him your warlord. In formats that weight slay the warlord heavily this can be a life saver -- it opens up your play a bit with your hive tyrant. InControl did this at NoVa and I have used this trick on occasion as well. The main drawback is when fishing for Master of Ambush he doesn't benefit. You also tend to just put in him reserve and hide him, so that is less points resources available to the army. Still a viable option.
Give it a try and see if you like it. I don't care for this tactic. Putting him in a large squad that infiltrates gives up warlord too easily. It is better when he is in a min squad. It basically puts a 130 point tax on your army, because a broodlord is too easy to kill. If you do it, I recommend reserving him, and possibly outflanking depending on terrain. As games get large you can spend these points, but my opinion is that InControl could have scored more points if he took those 130 points and spent them on a unit that contributed to his ability to score. For instance 21+ gargoyles. He placed where he did because he wasn't scoring many points.
winterman wrote: Two, in a big block of stealers you can use a broodlord to help get into assault. Overwatch can and will keep you out of assault range. General shooting can also. A broodlord helps mitigate this via being a character with T5 multiwound and 4+ save -- he is much more likely to survive and stay close to the target unit. Simply having more bodies won't do that in the same manner. This is, in my opinion, the only reason he is worth his extra points in a big stealer unit (that and he does add to the warp pool which can benefit a stealer spam army).
He costs as much as 4 more Genestealers. 3 wounds with a 4+ save vs 4 wounds with a 5+. Also his value recedes significantly as you support you genestealers. It is more important for unsupported stealers. If you do run him, give him poison and Scy tals so that he doesn't have to decline challenges.
winterman wrote: --Small stealer units have their place due to obsec. They can go to ground unlike rippers. They can outflank which is terrible for assault but great for objective grabs. They can infiltrate which makes them better in maelstrom then either gants or rippers. Like any MSU strategy they can work by diluting enemy firepower and are more of a distraction then other gribblies (they will draw more fire then rippers or gants). Still the caveat remains they aren't exactly stellar either for the points but I have em so try and use em anyways to decent effect.
I've tried running 5 broods of 5 genestealers for this reason several times. Not impressed. MSU amplifies their high price tag while mitigating their close combat damage output. Rippers are a better bet for this sort of strategy. Easier to hide. More wounds, and 1/2 the price.
2014/09/17 22:50:51
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (New Batrep on p.170)
winterman wrote: Two, in a big block of stealers you can use a broodlord to help get into assault. Overwatch can and will keep you out of assault range. General shooting can also. A broodlord helps mitigate this via being a character with T5 multiwound and 4+ save -- he is much more likely to survive and stay close to the target unit. Simply having more bodies won't do that in the same manner. This is, in my opinion, the only reason he is worth his extra points in a big stealer unit (that and he does add to the warp pool which can benefit a stealer spam army).
He costs as much as 4 more Genestealers. 3 wounds with a 4+ save vs 4 wounds with a 5+.
You missed the point. Its not just his wounds and saves and stats, which you seem to focus on a lot, its all about his ability to help the unit maintain positioning. If you lose models due to overwatch or shooting you will more often then not have a larger gap to close on the charge. Extra wounds and attacks mean nothing if you don't actually get into combat.
snoogums: "Just because something is not relavant doesn't mean it goes away completely."
Iorek: "Snoogums, you're right. Your arguments are irrelevant, and they sure as heck aren't going away."
2014/09/09 22:58:44
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (New Batrep on p.170)
winterman wrote: Two, in a big block of stealers you can use a broodlord to help get into assault. Overwatch can and will keep you out of assault range. General shooting can also. A broodlord helps mitigate this via being a character with T5 multiwound and 4+ save -- he is much more likely to survive and stay close to the target unit. Simply having more bodies won't do that in the same manner. This is, in my opinion, the only reason he is worth his extra points in a big stealer unit (that and he does add to the warp pool which can benefit a stealer spam army).
He costs as much as 4 more Genestealers. 3 wounds with a 4+ save vs 4 wounds with a 5+.
You missed the point. Its not just his wounds and saves and stats, which you seem to focus on a lot, its all about his ability to help the unit maintain positioning. If you lose models due to overwatch or shooting you will more often then not have a larger gap to close on the charge. Extra wounds and attacks mean nothing if you don't actually get into combat.
It's not that he doesn't bring anything to the table - he certainly does - but the point is that it's not as effective as more Stealers would be, typically. If the total cost of the Broodlord was an upgrade cost that incorporated the base cost of a Genestealer, making him 14 points cheaper, we would be having a different conversation. Also worth noting that although he is T5, this is irrelevant in the opponent's shooting phase due to majority toughness, which is what you wound against (unless I misunderstood you and were referencing his CC durability).
Frankly, I think just giving the stealers a 4+ armor save (and bumping the Broodlord to a 3+) would make everything appropriately costed and usable.
2014/09/18 00:30:28
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (New Batrep on p.170)
T5 is relevant when you are using a multiwound character to tank and filter wounds so as to maintain positioning for an assault. He won't instant death to S8. If he was T4 he'd be much less effective at that role.
snoogums: "Just because something is not relavant doesn't mean it goes away completely."
Iorek: "Snoogums, you're right. Your arguments are irrelevant, and they sure as heck aren't going away."
2014/09/18 02:09:22
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (New Batrep on p.170)
winterman 572843 7210208 b3d5f45758f70650314a9503dc1e4362 wrote:
--Broodlords can be usefull for a couple reasons.
One, you can take a small brood of stealers, add the broodlord and make him your warlord. In formats that weight slay the warlord heavily this can be a life saver -- it opens up your play a bit with your hive tyrant. InControl did this at NoVa and I have used this trick on occasion as well. The main drawback is when fishing for Master of Ambush he doesn't benefit. You also tend to just put in him reserve and hide him, so that is less points resources available to the army. Still a viable option.
I'd just like to point out that this isn't actually a negative, you already have your infiltrate on all your Stealers every single game without needing to rely on the 1/3 chance or whatever it is, for MoA, also allowing you to benefit from one of the many other useful traits on that table. On top of this, InControl is pretty bad at 40k generally just taking net list + some completely unexplained and stupid tweaks and playing it quite mediocrely.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @coredump while you might see no negative returns until the squad is dead this sort of forces you into taking large squads, as small squads get dead very quickly. Pythia stops you from taking the H&R Genestealer formation as an obvious setback, but just in general MSU is so much better for stealers. I'm top of the that, the benefits assuming best case scenario are so minor. And there is never going to be a game where every Stealer wound isn't relevant.
On top of ally this, the trade off of tank for attacks just isn't worth it like it is with Devourers. I don't ever risk points on Devourers unless outflanking them and they hit the turn they hit the field, so I think both upgrades are kind of crappy, but at least Termagants pay 60 points for 15 ablative wounds before the Devourers start dying, for the same price Genestealers get 4. It's no comparison really and casting a logical eye on ScyTals the upgrade just doesn't stand to make back what it's worth.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/09/18 02:25:26
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2014/09/18 02:41:51
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (New Batrep on p.170)
On top of this, InControl is pretty bad at 40k generally just taking net list + some completely unexplained and stupid tweaks and playing it quite mediocrely.
I LOL'd when I read this. Too bad InControl doesn't browse/post here on dakka. It would have been interesting to see the fireworks if he did.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/18 02:42:31
I still watch his stream whenever its on and quite enjoy watching him play Starcraft, it hurts my head to look at his 40k lists and battlereports however.
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2014/09/18 04:16:03
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (New Batrep on p.170)
winterman wrote: T5 is relevant when you are using a multiwound character to tank and filter wounds so as to maintain positioning for an assault. He won't instant death to S8. If he was T4 he'd be much less effective at that role.
Every single genestealer gets ID'd by S8 that is true. On the other hand every single genestealer also gets one-shotted by S3, so the added toughness only really matters in challenges or once the unit gets down to 1 stealer plus the broodlord.
If you vision of the Broodlord is an overwatch eater, he really isn't all that good at that either. Eat overwatch with 6 point gargoyles or a Malanthrope with a 3+ save and regen. Not with a Broodlord who costs 24.5 points per wound (ST + TS).
The other issue is one of deployment. You don't want to infiltrate the broodlord up front of the genestaler unit. It raises your opponent's target priority on the unit. Instead you are generally going to want to keep the broodlord near the back of whatever terrain you infiltrate the stealers on to. Now, in order for him to eat overwatch, he has to be at the front, meaning that your charge range is going to be significantly greater.
In later turns, he might be able to eat overwatch, but there are many things that could go wrong prior to that point in the game, and so building a strategy around that scenario is dubious. It is the same problem with building a strategy around his ability to pin opponents. It will work 1 in 5 games depending on the meta, but most of the time it is relatively worthless. Now, if the Horror was written better it would be a 12" nova power, and might justify its existence, and its inclusion as the broodlord's predefined power. Or, if it lowered the initiative to one, and denied overwatch rather than pinning (because 2/3 of what you are going to run into can't be pinned.
I used to pin riptides in 6th quite a bit. But I think in 7th I've only ever successfully pinned Necron warriors. I seem to have pretty good luck pinning them.
2014/09/18 06:17:04
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (New Batrep on p.170)
tag8833 wrote: ]I see your point here. I'm not sure if I agree with you. I think one of the jobs of Genestealers includes tarpitting units. If I can pull off a charge onto a Wraith Knight or Riptide I'm going to do it.
Sure you can, and sometimes you need to; but they are really bad at it. That is what gaunts are for, heck warriors and shrikes are better in most situations. If you are looking to use your stealers as a tarpit, then we do disagree. Otherwise, I prefer to gear my broods for their prime purpose, and not worry about desparation moves for the most part.
If they can stay locked for my opponent's 2nd turn, I will have had time to mobilize the rest of my army and neutralize other shooting, so even if I win combat on my turn 3, I am safer.
The problem I find, is that stealers can't last in a prolonged fight. If the enemy is good enough, or numerous enough to take multiple game turns to die; there usually isn't much left in the stealer brood.
And there is no benefit to being locked in combat during your turn. You want to destroy the enemy in two phases so you can pick another target to destroy, and to get the charge bonus again.
It might be that Scything Talons wouldn't get in the way of this. You've made a good enough case that I will do some test games when I have appropriate opponents.
The trick to understanding this is to realize it is a *small* change in the brood. This isn't a big increase in offense *or* resilency. The example I was using (17 vs 15 w/7ST) is a difference of 2 wounds and 3 attacks per phase. This is just sprinkling in some talons to tweak the damage up a bit, without losing any practical resiliency.
@coredump while you might see no negative returns until the squad is dead this sort of forces you into taking large squads, as small squads get dead very quickly. Pythia stops you from taking the H&R Genestealer formation as an obvious setback, but just in general MSU is so much better for stealers.
You have it backwards, I am not saying "STs are great, so take big broods" I am saying "If you are taking big broods, a few ST can be a good idea" I probably would not use them in broods less than 10.
Since the tactica under discussion was suggesting 15... it seemed appropriate.
It's no comparison really and casting a logical eye on ScyTals the upgrade just doesn't stand to make back what it's worth.
The only way it doesn't 'make back' what its worth, is if the brood gets destroyed before ever getting into combat.... At which point, who cares what you do...
Automatically Appended Next Post: Lets breakdown the Broodlord
Costs the same as 4 stealers
Has the offense of 2-3 stealers (1/2 the attacks, but at S5)
Has the resiliency of
AP-/6 4 stealers
AP5 6 stealers (Bolter bait??)
AP4/3/2 3 stealers
So lets call the resiliency a wash, and see what you get for giving up the attacks of 1-2 stealers:
Adds 1 die to your psy pool
Horror: Roll 3 dice against Ld9 unit = 31% chance, against Ld8 is 43% chance of pinning, and thus prevent overwatch and no Init penalty for Diff terrain
Dominon: Lets you GtG to get +1 cover save, then cast Dominion to end GtG and assault (if close enough)
Overwatch: Not only does a BLord have 3 wounds and a better save, it is character. Put him in front and even if you LoS some of the wounds, the assault range does not get any further.
Snipe: If you can get the Blord into base contact, all his wounds get allocated to *that* model. Lets you snipe out trouble models before they can swing.
Now, these may not be all that great, or pretty situational, or whatever... but they also only 'cost' about 4 attacks.
Compare that to a 30-40% chance of pinning an enemy unit?
How many stealers (attacks) will be saved by no overwatch? How many will be saved by being able to strike first?
When you have a brood with 30-45 attacks on the charge, is this chance worth losing 4ish attacks?
What if the stealers get fired at, how many stealers get saved by GtG?
How valuable is it to snipe out that one model?
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2014/09/18 07:36:16
2014/09/18 13:23:56
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (New Batrep on p.170)
Has the offense of 2-3 stealers (1/2 the attacks, but at S5)
Has the resiliency of
AP-/6 4 stealers
AP5 6 stealers (Bolter bait??)
AP4/3/2 3 stealers
So lets call the resiliency a wash, and see what you get for giving up the attacks of 1-2 stealers:
Provided the stealers are on their own and not covered by a Malanthrope or Venomthrope.
coredump wrote: Horror: Roll 3 dice against Ld9 unit = 31% chance, against Ld8 is 43% chance of pinning, and thus prevent overwatch and no Init penalty for Diff terrain. Compare that to a 30-40% chance of pinning an enemy unit?
The problem is many, many things in 40k can't be pinned. Bikes, MC's, Vehicles, anything fearless. So the effective percent is more like 1/3 of that.
coredump wrote: Dominon: Lets you GtG to get +1 cover save, then cast Dominion to end GtG and assault (if close enough)
Only works if the Stealers aren't supported. There is no way to make use of this during your opponent's first shooting phase. Best case scenario, it might be useful on opponent turn 2 or 3.
coredump wrote: Snipe: If you can get the Blord into base contact, all his wounds get allocated to *that* model. Lets you snipe out trouble models before they can swing.
This one is a definite plus. You can snipe out a Nob with a challenge.
coredump wrote: Now, these may not be all that great, or pretty situational, or whatever... but they also only 'cost' about 4 attacks.
4 attacks and 3-4 bodies. So you've got less board control, and multi-charge ability.
In a vacuum, the broodlord is definitely worth it. However a properly supported brood invalidates most of his positives. He raises the target priority of genestealers for very little gain.
2014/09/18 17:18:30
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (New Batrep on p.170)
Provided the stealers are on their own and not covered by a Malanthrope or Venomthrope.
Valid, but if you are infiltrating, or outflanking, or using the formations... Or heck, even if you are running more broods than you can always cover...
The problem is many, many things in 40k can't be pinned. Bikes, MC's, Vehicles, anything fearless. So the effective percent is more like 1/3 of that.
You really think 2/3 of the GS targets can't be pinned? Even if some can't, target the ones you can. It is a *big* boost in effectiveness. (If it works)
Only works if the Stealers aren't supported. There is no way to make use of this during your opponent's first shooting phase. Best case scenario, it might be useful on opponent turn 2 or 3.
No, only works if the stealers are not in synapse, and thats the *point*, it provides the ability to put them out of synapse, so they *can* GtG, and still assault next turn. It really shouldn't be that hard to infiltrate and be out of synapse range, you could even put a venom nearby for more cover save goodness. (Or if you Outlfank, or if you use the formations...)
This one is a definite plus. You can snipe out a Nob with a challenge.
Not just a challenge, *any* model, perhaps the one carrying a banner, or the one providing FnP, etc. Just get the BL into base contact and all attacks allocate to *that* model. No challenge required.
4 attacks and 3-4 bodies. So you've got less board control, and multi-charge ability.
3 bodies... and the same charge ability. If you need every single model just to stretch from one combat to another... you are doing it wrong. 10 models can multi assault just as well as 13 (assuming same offensive power available), 15 can multi assault just as well as 18.
Sure, 5 has more problems than 8, but do you really want to multi-assault with only 8 stealers? And *if* you do, the targets are likely very close together, so 5 should work just fine.
But again, you are looking for the 'one great reason'... and admittedly it doesn't exist. But there are multiple 'little reasons' that may add up to enough. Being able to GtG is a big help, having a venom boost to a 3+ save is great, getting a 2+ cuts your casualties *in half*.
But that, alone, is not enough reason.... but also the *chance* to pin a unit. Again, not overly reliable, but a *big* shift if it happens. No overwatch *and* you kill models before they even attack? Even if its only a 20% chance... thats worth something.
etc
etc
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/18 17:18:54
1970/01/09 00:00:00
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (New Batrep on p.170)
This one is a definite plus. You can snipe out a Nob with a challenge.
Not just a challenge, *any* model, perhaps the one carrying a banner, or the one providing FnP, etc. Just get the BL into base contact and all attacks allocate to *that* model. No challenge required.
Eh? I may have missed a rule here. As the broodlord is part of the unit not an IC, wouldn't his attacks still go in general pool of attacks? Or is it working of the fact BL goes alone on at I7 so all attacks hit the nearest model, which of course the one in B2B?
2014/09/18 18:19:34
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (New Batrep on p.170)
Only works if the Stealers aren't supported. There is no way to make use of this during your opponent's first shooting phase. Best case scenario, it might be useful on opponent turn 2 or 3.
No, only works if the stealers are not in synapse, and thats the *point*, it provides the ability to put them out of synapse, so they *can* GtG, and still assault next turn. It really shouldn't be that hard to infiltrate and be out of synapse range, you could even put a venom nearby for more cover save goodness. (Or if you Outlfank, or if you use the formations...)
If you put a venom within range to give cover (6") that venom couldn't be used to give shrouded to any synapse creature unless the Genestealers are also in synapse.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/18 18:20:09
2014/09/18 20:28:49
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (New Batrep on p.170)
Only works if the Stealers aren't supported. There is no way to make use of this during your opponent's first shooting phase. Best case scenario, it might be useful on opponent turn 2 or 3.
No, only works if the stealers are not in synapse, and thats the *point*, it provides the ability to put them out of synapse, so they *can* GtG, and still assault next turn. It really shouldn't be that hard to infiltrate and be out of synapse range, you could even put a venom nearby for more cover save goodness. (Or if you Outlfank, or if you use the formations...)
If you put a venom within range to give cover (6") that venom couldn't be used to give shrouded to any synapse creature unless the Genestealers are also in synapse.
Not true. 6" from the venom in one direction, plus the venoms base, plus 6" in another direction means you can cover 2 units and not have Synapse cross the gap.
It's not trivial, but it's doable.
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2014/09/18 21:36:28
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (New Batrep on p.170)
Only works if the Stealers aren't supported. There is no way to make use of this during your opponent's first shooting phase. Best case scenario, it might be useful on opponent turn 2 or 3.
No, only works if the stealers are not in synapse, and thats the *point*, it provides the ability to put them out of synapse, so they *can* GtG, and still assault next turn. It really shouldn't be that hard to infiltrate and be out of synapse range, you could even put a venom nearby for more cover save goodness. (Or if you Outlfank, or if you use the formations...)
If you put a venom within range to give cover (6") that venom couldn't be used to give shrouded to any synapse creature unless the Genestealers are also in synapse.
Not true. 6" from the venom in one direction, plus the venoms base, plus 6" in another direction means you can cover 2 units and not have Synapse cross the gap.
It's not trivial, but it's doable.
I stand corrected. I did not consider the base size of the venom.
2014/09/19 03:12:49
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (New Batrep on p.170)
TROOPS: 1x Brood lord with Scything Talons (Warlord) + 7x Genestealers (162 points)
TROOPS: 7x Genestealers (98 points)
HEAVY: 1x Mawloc (140 points)
Total: 500
The environment has softened quite a bit since the last time I posted. Quite a few people with new armies have started showing up so people have been dialing back a bit to accommodate the more limited collections (i.e. no more Knights of either sort at 500). I'm not sure if the above list is entirely "friendly", but I think it would be fun (everything Infiltrate!) and "fluffy" at least.
2014/09/19 14:50:39
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (New Batrep on p.170)
Ok, since we are talking about the genestealers and GtG/Broodlord dominion trick I have a question.
So my question is if my unit of non synapse critters start in synapse range at the beginning of my turn, but fall out of range, due to either the nearest synapse being killed off or moving out of range, do I then have to take synapse checks immediately, or only at the beginning of the next turn?
Conversely, if I started my turn with them out of range, and I then move my synapse back into range, they then immediately negate the effects of the instinctive behavior?
2014/09/19 15:53:21
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (New Batrep on p.170)
TROOPS: 1x Brood lord with Scything Talons (Warlord) + 7x Genestealers (162 points)
TROOPS: 7x Genestealers (98 points)
HEAVY: 1x Mawloc (140 points)
Total: 500
The environment has softened quite a bit since the last time I posted. Quite a few people with new armies have started showing up so people have been dialing back a bit to accommodate the more limited collections (i.e. no more Knights of either sort at 500). I'm not sure if the above list is entirely "friendly", but I think it would be fun (everything Infiltrate!) and "fluffy" at least.
At 500 points, I do not think that will be enough bodies to really stick in.
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2014/09/19 16:26:10
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (New Batrep on p.170)
Korias1004 wrote: So my question is if my unit of non synapse critters start in synapse range at the beginning of my turn, but fall out of range, due to either the nearest synapse being killed off or moving out of range, do I then have to take synapse checks immediately, or only at the beginning of the next turn?
You only take checks if they are out of synapse at the beginning of your turn. The only thing affected by leaving synapse during your own turn is fearless (for assault or going to ground), otherwise units act normally.
Conversely, if I started my turn with them out of range, and I then move my synapse back into range, they then immediately negate the effects of the instinctive behavior?
Depends on the effect. If a Hunt creature goes to ground for instance then yes you can negate that and a Lurk creature that is forced to fall back will automatically rally upon entering synapse. The other effects however cannot be stopped until your next turn.
Also, if a non-fearless unit is stranded out of synapse just have the unit in question go to ground during your opponent's shooting phase. Units that have gone to ground do not test for instinctive behavior and you can get them back up next turn via synapse coverage. Buys you a bit of time with IB: Feed units (Hormagaunts and Raveners) in particular.
At 500 points, I do not think that will be enough bodies to really stick in.
Yeah, body count does feel rather low (and I normally run a strong swarm component which makes it feel worse), but to be fair I think most of the damage is probably going to be coming from the pin-point Mawloc strikes rather than melee proper. Basically the Genestealers exist to draw attention from the Lictors and mop up whatever is left.
2014/09/19 16:37:49
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (New Batrep on p.170)
My thought is that I Kill one Knight (Flyrants, Crone), and do my best to tarpit the skyfire Riptide(Gargoyles), and then try to claim or contest objectives, while curled in a fetal position, hoping I don't get tabled.
2014/09/22 16:32:47
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (New Batrep on p.170)
Ignore the knights. Tear down the riptides and obsec troop units. A lot depends on your list and the mission. Normally I'd say play the mission too. Once the tides and obsec are gone then he has to split up to grab objectives and such. When that happens you can shred 1 knight a turn.
For example I run a Nid/Daemon list. But if I was running pure Nids I'd be inclined to go with skyblight and normal nids. I'd been considering running 3 Flyrants, 3 Crones, and 3 Harpies once you take the Skyblight. That should just shred knights since your crone's St8 vector is a random facing. Also good use of Onslaught helps kill knights too.
If you can find 25pts I recommend a venomthrope. But those last 15pts are hard to come by.
Be more concerned with the Riptide/Knight list that brings Riptides w/Velocity Tracker. That's a tougher one.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/22 16:45:30
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2014/09/22 17:43:46
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (New Batrep on p.170)
Hulksmash wrote: Ignore the knights. Tear down the riptides and obsec troop units. A lot depends on your list and the mission. Normally I'd say play the mission too. Once the tides and obsec are gone then he has to split up to grab objectives and such. When that happens you can shred 1 knight a turn.
With what? Devourers? 5 rounds of shooting a Flyrant at a Riptide might kill it, assuming it fails one Nova Charge in that time.
Hulksmash wrote: Be more concerned with the Riptide/Knight list that brings Riptides w/Velocity Tracker. That's a tougher one.
TLBS:1 is still nearly as dangerous as TLBS:3
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/22 17:46:11
2014/09/22 18:45:59
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (New Batrep on p.170)
Hulksmash wrote: Ignore the knights. Tear down the riptides and obsec troop units. A lot depends on your list and the mission. Normally I'd say play the mission too. Once the tides and obsec are gone then he has to split up to grab objectives and such. When that happens you can shred 1 knight a turn.
With what? Devourers? 5 rounds of shooting a Flyrant at a Riptide might kill it, assuming it fails one Nova Charge in that time.
Hulksmash wrote: Be more concerned with the Riptide/Knight list that brings Riptides w/Velocity Tracker. That's a tougher one.
TLBS:1 is still nearly as dangerous as TLBS:3
Well, TLBS:1 is indeed almost as Dangerous as TLBS:3 except the big gun isn't TL and 4 missiles aren't that scary when they wound on 4 or 5. I was talking about VT's for the Burst Tides.
As for the pulling down of the Riptides it's a combination of psychic powers (you're pretty likely to pull down the psychic scream nova power), devourers, rando vector strikes, and warp blasts. That is if the opportunity to tear down knights in the run-up doesn't occur. Which using Onslaught and vector strikes works out pretty well on them too. Especially when you have 12 haywire missiles you can use over the course of the game.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/22 18:46:39
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2014/09/23 00:18:21
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (New Batrep on p.170)
SHUPPET wrote: I don't think in any situation is it a good idea to focus Riptides. They are the tankiest models in the game from a point to durability ratio.
Unless you are running harridans and there are no flyers in the sky. Wounds on 2+ and ignores the Wraithknight's Armour. Has a 3+ and FNP of it's own. Literally, we just bring our own pacific rim. Two of them would be 24 shots (to 4 different targets). You want to see wraithknights hide in cover all game? It'll only cost you 1470 points. Or you could just bring one for 735. It literally won't die. I don't believe there's a single more durable thing in the entire game (except when An'ggrath decides to fly, and I mean really, why would he?) I think a cool and thematic list would be Skyblight plus a Harridan; you could even make it battle-forged. Skyblight will cost you....805 at minimum IIRC. After the Harridan, you'll have 310 points left. 2 Ripper Squads (or two Gant Squads) leaves you with 232 points (or 230 if you go the Gant route). This seems really attractive until you realize that my definition of "minimum" means that you don't get a template or the guns on the first hive tyrant, which is pretty worthless. Oh the math, we came so close. At 2k this is perfectly viable however. Gives you the 50 points necessary to kit out the flyrants, plus giving the rippers deep strike and grabbing a malanthrope for good measure (because obviously). All that is literally one minimum FOC, a LOW and a formation. Technically three sources if people care about those kinds of things, but that list is not about to go stomp a tournament any time soon.
That being said, I wonder if a Harridan list might? A hyper-durable gun platform that will explode armour and wraithknights before they know what hit them. Sure, it's not AP 2 but with that many STR 10 shots who cares? AP 3 is good enough.
Maybe something like:
Flyrant w/the works - 240
Flyrant w/the works - 240
Flyrant w/the works - 240
Flyrant w/the works - 240
Well you could take a template or two off of the flyrants to give some deep strike to the rippers since the harridan will be dismantling heavy armor left and right. It's even easier if you just have one FOC. I don't know if the tournaments typically have a LOW and allies both count towards the "two source limit" meaning you couldn't take both, but let's assume that they do (so no third flyrant)
Flyrant w/the works - 240
Flyrant w/the works - 240
You've got 500 points left to spend to taste. My personal taste? Malan-in-a-box for 160, mawloc for 140 and 2 Dakkafex for 300.
I looked at the BAO LOW list and the Harridan was curiously excluded (though the Hierophant was not-so-curiously excluded). Even without the transport capacity/other upgrades, it's still pretty nuts. As far as the Harridan, though, yeah it's tough to kill, but it's 735 points. That's a lot of points!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/23 02:29:22
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