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Oh you make me want to use a Tervigon

 gigasnail wrote:
ref: tervigon. the points required alone make the unit undesirable. i'm not spending 300+ on troops without a good reason. every bit of threat has been removed from a tervigon.

That is fine. Many people feel that his points-cost is unjustified, and thus, undesirable, just because he doesn't fight like the dimachaeron, shoot like the dakkarant, move like the flyrant and kills his own units when he dies. I get that. However, to me, that is just the surface perspective of the unit. His worth to the army is much more subtle than that, as he is a facilitator to the army rather than as a direct offensive unit.

 Sinful Hero wrote:
What is the consensus on Troop Warriors in a competitive environment? Is there a place for them besides a formation tax, or is it just all rippers and gaunts all the time?

A lot of people don't like them. Living artillery is definitely a great way to run them. Used to be that you would use them as backfield support, where they were my troop choice in sixth (I actually didn't run LAN then). Now, to get the Tervigon as a troop, it does cost more than it used to, but definitely still provides benefits as well (see the discussion Jy2 and Shuppet are having).

The reason why a lot of people have moved away from the Tervigon and Warriors as troop choices is for a couple of reasons:

1) the Malanthrope now provides durable backfield synapse support for very little, fulfilling many roles that these used to for cheaper
2) even without the Malanthrope, Tyranids run well on what you could call "Objective Secured light", where you don't need many Objective Secured units because the supporting cast can be strong when you spend 80-90 points on troops and let the rest of your army do the heavy lifting. A lot of other armies need at least 140-200 points for their troop choices (and the often obligatory transports to go with them) to fulfill much of the same role. So you can essentially operate at an advantage against these types of armies
3) The prevalence of ignores cover means that if anyone really wants to kill your warriors, they usually can. Making them waste those shots on cheaper rippers or other gribblies is, again, more points-efficient.

All that being said, I definitely think you can make warriors work. If you're running Living Artillery as well, it's a little more rough because that's a lot of Strength 8 instant death vulnerability, and likely too many units that mostly want to camp in the backfield. But try both and see what works for you. So much of the issue with 40k is that we say, "oh no that won't work because of X, Y, and Z". While this might be true, if you don't come across those counters in your local meta often or can provide adequate target saturation for the offending units, it might not be a big deal. Finally, it's all a dice game and maybe bringing warriors gives you a slight edge in winning the game, and maybe the Tervigon or rippers give you a slightly better chance. I think too often we exaggerate the probabilities and think that bringing a subpar unit means that we'll lose 70-80 percent of our games. Sure, if our whole army is like that it might be true, but as long as a unit has a role in your army and fulfills that role decently well, you don't have to just cherry pick all of our best units to win.

This probably doesn't get said enough - if you want to have a better chance at winning, learn the game better. Learn your opponents' armies so that you can make better-informed decisions. Develop multiple tactical approaches for your army. To me, all of these activities will do your win percentage a better favor than finding out that one unit gives you a slight statistical edge or handicap

 Sinful Hero wrote:
What is the consensus on Troop Warriors in a competitive environment? Is there a place for them besides a formation tax, or is it just all rippers and gaunts all the time?

These are the only instances where you'd want to run warriors:

1. As part of a formation.

2. For some reason, you want more durable Synapse in the backfield but don't want to spend the points on a tervigon+termagants.

3. You want to focus on a more warrior-centric offense. This is more of a playstyle preference than a competitive choice.

Otherwise, no, warriors are not necessary in a competitive environment.

Outside of Formations, Warriors are best used as back field support/synapse. They're not as good as in the end of 6th, and I wouldn't take th now. But, I would highly recommend taking Shrikes. Instead of ObSec, you gain jump move. Just keep them near cover to negate the 5+ save with a Venomthrope nearby. But, now that Malanthropes are a thing, you often won't need backfield synapse, so Shrikes aren't fully necessary.

EDIT: basically, either run Malanthropes, or Venomthropes and Shrikes, if you need any kind of Synapse in your backfield, which most lists will. Shrikes continue to be underrated within te codex but they're really amazing versatile.

 jy2 wrote:

 gigasnail wrote:
ref: tervigon. the points required alone make the unit undesirable. i'm not spending 300+ on troops without a good reason. every bit of threat has been removed from a tervigon.

That is fine. Many people feel that his points-cost is unjustified, and thus, undesirable, just because he doesn't fight like the dimachaeron, shoot like the dakkarant, move like the flyrant and kills his own units when he dies. I get that. However, to me, that is just the surface perspective of the unit. His worth to the army is much less obvious than that, as he is a facilitator to the army rather than as a direct offensive unit.

points cost aside, he really doesn't bring a lot to the table. scoring? the novelty of a scoring MC is gone. yes it's obsec, but that only matters when you haven't mowed down your opponent's troops. synapse, i have malanthropes which provide synapse, shrouding, and potentially PE, at a fraction of the cost. sure terv poops out gribblies, but after the countless nerfs to the unit we don't need to go over again, what does that get you? hey awesome, here's a speedbump that has bolt pistols. cool, great. not really useful with the amount of firepower being tossed around.

just not a fan. at least it can carry egrubs?

 Sinful Hero wrote:
What is the consensus on Troop Warriors in a competitive environment? Is there a place for them besides a formation tax, or is it just all rippers and gaunts all the time?

The question has been answered, but one item that wasn't highlighted is that Shrikes are better than warriors. Not just a little better. With the extra movement they can make it to assault and stay safe there. Shrikes still don't have a place in competitive lists, but they don't miss out by much.

[Rant about movement in 40k] One of the fundamental imbalances in 40k is the speed of movement. It affects Tyranids more than most because we lack transport options that are widely available to other armies. If 6" is going to be the basic speed of movement then 12" shouldn't be the speed of fast things. That is such a substantial difference as to make slower things start out at a significant disadvantage especially if they have limited range or are primarily an assault unit. Unit type was the most important things about the new MC's. If they had been beasts, they would have been viable (maybe not the maleceptor). One fundamental change to the game that would generally improve balance would be to reduce movement speed by Beasts, Jump, Bikes, and vehicles to 9". Alternatively the speed of infantry, MCs, and Walkers could be increased to 9". In exchange, the run moves of Bikes(Turbo boost), Jump, and beasts could be increased to 2D6. This would go a long ways to fixing many of the units that are unworkable by modern standards such as Warriors or Haruspexes. As a general rule, anything that moves 6", runs D6" and doesn't have a transport option is nonviable in anything but a support role unless it does nearly optimum damage at 24" or more. There are exceptions such as the Dakkafex, but they are quite rare.[/Rant]

So whats the best way to run Shrikes?

I have 130 points in my 1250 double cad list that I don't know what to do with. Looked into Genestealers, ideally want something that's good in CC.

Was thinkning 3 Shrikes, 1 Lw/bs and 2 RC, all with Poison for 129 points.

Rest of the list is three standard Flyrants, Rippers x4, Malanthrope and Harpy (there for Large Blasts for hordes).

Alternatively, I could swap the Malanthrope for Venom/Zoan and have three Biovores.

 Frozocrone wrote:
So whats the best way to run Shrikes?

I have 130 points in my 1250 double cad list that I don't know what to do with. Looked into Genestealers, ideally want something that's good in CC.

Was thinkning 3 Shrikes, 1 Lw/bs and 2 RC, all with Poison for 129 points.

Rest of the list is three standard Flyrants, Rippers x4, Malanthrope and Harpy (there for Large Blasts for hordes).

Alternatively, I could swap the Malanthrope for Venom/Zoan and have three Biovores.

I'd just run them naked with rending claws. Forget about trying to kit them with too much and just look at them as a disposable unit. Go with numbers. More shrikes is better than shrikes with too many toys. The rending claws is to make them more flexible, both against infantry and vehicles.

Warriors were definitely the best standard Synapse in 6th if you weren't running enough ground units to benefit from Onslaught, but
Mope has provided some serious competition for that role now. There is merits to both in such a build, Vope + Warriors is slightly more expensive than Malanthrope + Rippers and slightly less mobile which might be a factor in an army with a lower model count, I'd say the Mope wins out here (while Warriors+Vope are still a completely viable option with merits of their own), but I'd say in ground lists Zope + Vope wins out, sorting of making the Warriors slightly subpar no matter how you do it, but always a viable and playable option for Synapse if you would prefer a Pinning Cannon, a little more aggression in CC and shooting, and are willing to trade off the mobility of your scoring and the durability of your cover save provider, or a Psychic Power, for a bit more oomph and durability out of the Synapse unit itself.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh yeah and Living Artillery being the best formation we have access to imo makes good use out of taking 3, giving them a big buff in pining Venom cannon that is also twin-linked, making them very justifiable and well worth the same MASSIVE benefits that they provide to 2 other staples of competitive play (Exocrine & Biovores).

 Frozocrone wrote:
So whats the best way to run Shrikes?

I have 130 points in my 1250 double cad list that I don't know what to do with. Looked into Genestealers, ideally want something that's good in CC.

Was thinkning 3 Shrikes, 1 Lw/bs and 2 RC, all with Poison for 129 points.

Rest of the list is three standard Flyrants, Rippers x4, Malanthrope and Harpy (there for Large Blasts for hordes).

Alternatively, I could swap the Malanthrope for Venom/Zoan and have three Biovores.

The best way to run Shrikes is cheap. I actually wouldn't run them CC because they have such bad saves, the mobility is best used for moving synapse and grabbing objectives. For 130 points, I would take 3 shrikes with a Barbed Strangler and 2 Rending Claws with Scytals. You get 8 rending attacks in CC an good long range firepower. You hang around away from the enemy just providing synapse and dropping plates. If needed, they can add punch to a swarm of gants assaulting but I wouldn't send them alone against anything tougher than a combat squad.

@jy2 and jifel

Thank you both for the advice

I will probably go with jifels advice (Barbed Strangler, two Rending Claws) as that costs 110 points, so I can have the Shrikes as Anti-Horde with the Pie Plate (and occassional pinning) and upgrade the Harpy to a Hive Crone for a few more Haywire weapons and reliable AA.

 Frozocrone wrote:
@jy2 and jifel

Thank you both for the advice

I will probably go with jifels advice (Barbed Strangler, two Rending Claws) as that costs 110 points, so I can have the Shrikes as Anti-Horde with the Pie Plate (and occassional pinning) and upgrade the Harpy to a Hive Crone for a few more Haywire weapons and reliable AA.

Personally, this is how I would run them (given that I only have 130-pts):

4x Shrikes - 2x Rending claws

And here is why:

1. More models = more durability = actually better able to survive to grab an objective.

2. More models = more close-combat effectiveness. At the very least, it makes for a better tarpitting unit as long as the unit it charges does not have too many S8+ cc attacks.

3. More models = better durability because you are more able to string them out to within malan/venomthrope range.

4. Give them a gun like the BS or VC means that you are under-utilizing their shooting capability. Why? Because that would mean that the devourers would most likely be out of range if you are constantly firing the BS or VC.

In any case, I am in the camp of more bodies = better (as long as at least some of them have rending claws in order to be able to deal with vehicles).

Hi guys I need help to complete my 1750 points army

Interesting if anyone has any suggestions for alterations and what to spend the remaining points on

I'm looking for a good list although not necessarily fully optimized
I'm avoiding Lords of War and even considering avoiding Forgeworld and replacing Malanthropes with venoms + zoans
Contemplating trying to squeeze in a tervigon, adding some devs to the gants, rippers or possibly hormagaunts (but probably not)

I've recently returned to Nids after a 15 year gap from 40k, this will mainly be used to plan my shopping list

Also Biovores are my favourite unit so LAN is a must for me and I love the idea of the Mawloc but have never used one in play

CAD 1250

HQ
Flyrant 2 TL Devs + BLW + EGrubs 240
Flyrant 2 TL Devs + BLW + EGrubs 240

Elite
Malanthrope 85
Malanthrope 85

Troops
20x Borergants 80
20x Borergants 80

Heavy Support
2x Carnifex 2 TL Devs + BLW 300
Mawloc 140

Formation 390
Living Artillery Node 390

Total 1640

spoboyle wrote:
Hi guys I need help to complete my 1750 points army

Interesting if anyone has any suggestions for alterations and what to spend the remaining points on

I'm looking for a good list although not necessarily fully optimized
I'm avoiding Lords of War and even considering avoiding Forgeworld and replacing Malanthropes with venoms + zoans
Contemplating trying to squeeze in a tervigon, adding some devs to the gants, rippers or possibly hormagaunts (but probably not)

I've recently returned to Nids after a 15 year gap from 40k, this will mainly be used to plan my shopping list

CAD 1250

HQ
Flyrant 2 TW Devs + BLW + EGrubs 240
Flyrant 2 TW Devs + BLW + EGrubs 240

Elite
Malanthrope 85
Malanthrope 85

Troops
20x Borergants 80
20x Borergants 80

Heavy Support
2x Carnifex 2 TW Devs + BLW 300
Mawloc 140

Formation 390
Living Artillery Node 390

Total 1640

I like this list, it's actually not too different from my own 1750 list (check page 201 for the latest version of it).

I really like Mawlocs myself, but you probably want two to make them somewhat dependable, so that would be my advice for the remaining points. That would put you at 1780 points though, so you need to shave some points off. If you replace one unit of Gaunts with a unit of deep striking rippers, you should be ok again and gain some mobility to boot.

Good list, just take 2 more Carnifexes and drop 1 Malanthrope imo

 NightWrench wrote:
I cannot for the life of me not understand why bugs cannot get a LoW that is a Gargantuan walker.

We have - the Hierophant and the Hierodule.

The Hierodule isn't actually that bad, just because it has some of the only reach-out-and-touch-you antitank firepower in the army. It's quite capable of reducing a wraithknight to paste in one volley of fire, and anything which can do that deserves a little respect.

Just keep in mind that it's much better at pummeling lighter units (by which I mean 3+ save monstrous creatures, T5 heavy infantry and vehicles!) than it is at engaging other super-heavies. DON'T take one up against a knight if you can avoid it. It can win a stand-off shooting match against one knight, but maybe not before the imperial war engine catches it and puts a reaper chainsword through its neck.

The hierophant has no more firepower but is night impossible to kill without destroyer weapons*. With destroyer weapons, it goes down like a sack of chopped meat.

* I think you need an average of something like four hundred krak missiles to have a reasonable chance ot stopping it!

@jy2 Ahh fair, thabks for the advice

@everyone

What is the best way to run a Tervigon? It's going to be in the HQ as I can not find the points for Termagant tax. I also think 4 Flyrants at 1250 (double Cad) is too stronk after already running 3 at 1000 and I do need some ground troops (spawned gants could also tarpit)

Egrubs is always on as they are awesome but what would be better? Have it with Miasma Cannon and sit back on an objective, or have Crushing Claws for tank hunting?

And what would make a better Warlord, Tervigon or Flyrant?

Alas, Tervigon is no character now. : /

 Iechine wrote:
Alas, Tervigon is no character now. : /

Which is infinitely better now when fighting alongside gribblies in cqc

KurtAngle2 wrote:

 Iechine wrote:
Alas, Tervigon is no character now. : /

Which is infinitely better now when fighting alongside gribblies in cqc

It also means that he cannot be a Warlord now, at least not while you have flyrants in the army.

 Frozocrone wrote:
@jy2 and jifel

Thank you both for the advice

I will probably go with jifels advice (Barbed Strangler, two Rending Claws) as that costs 110 points, so I can have the Shrikes as Anti-Horde with the Pie Plate (and occassional pinning) and upgrade the Harpy to a Hive Crone for a few more Haywire weapons and reliable AA.

I run a different style army than those two, because I include gants and gargoyles. For me Gants are an Anvil, and shrikes are a hammer. That means 1 BS + LW w/ Scytal for every 2-4 RC w/ Devourer Shrikes. If I have the points I give them Adrenal Glands (not poison, never poison), but generally it is better to just grab more Shrikes. It comes down to play style. Jifel likes to run his Shrikes as a backfield support unit relying on staying out of range / LOS to keep them safe. I run them in a forward support/offensive role. I relying on staying in combat with them to keep them safe, and in using screeners / tarpits to neutralize the threats to them. Neither of them usually play with screeners or tarpits, and therefore cannot use Shrikes the way I use them. My Shrikes are likely to make their points back. A backfield support group of Shrikes is rarely going to make its points back.

 jy2 wrote:

locarno24 wrote:
Hmm...

 NightWrench wrote:

I cannot for the life of me not understand why bugs cannot get a LoW that is a Gargantuan walker.

Why would you want a Gargantuan walker when we have Gargantuan creatures? Leave the robots to the Imperials. We have gigantic walking bio-weapons instead.

Just bring your Hierophant Bio-titan with the biomorph that causes wounds/glancing hits to enemy units/walkers in combat and you will never have to worry about those pesky Imperial Knights ever again.

I meant creature not walker...that is what I get for not paying attention to what I was typing in a meeting. Come on work I am trying to read forums here. Anyway the one LGS does not allow Forgeworld and basically anything that is not in escalation as well as no flying gargantuan creatures or dataslates for that matter. So as a bug player I am kind of limited to the primary CAD and that is it.

The primary guy I play against is chaos and he does not have a LoW or titan except a Warhound that is slated for his space wolves army.

I am planning to buy a Hierophant after Thanksgiving as a Christmas present...unless I end up buying the expensive bottle of Scotch instead and the box of cigars I want.

spoboyle wrote:
Hi guys I need help to complete my 1750 points army

Troops
20x Borergants 80
20x Borergants 80

This isn't doing any good for you. If you want to run 40 Fleshgants, then run them in 4 squads. If you are looking at them as a screen or tarpit you should to be running gargoyles or hormagants instead. If you are looking at them as a shooting unit, you should drop 10 fleshgants and add 5 Devourer gants to each squad.

 NightWrench wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

locarno24 wrote:
Hmm...

 NightWrench wrote:

I cannot for the life of me not understand why bugs cannot get a LoW that is a Gargantuan walker.

Why would you want a Gargantuan walker when we have Gargantuan creatures? Leave the robots to the Imperials. We have gigantic walking bio-weapons instead.

Just bring your Hierophant Bio-titan with the biomorph that causes wounds/glancing hits to enemy units/walkers in combat and you will never have to worry about those pesky Imperial Knights ever again.

I meant creature not walker...that is what I get for not paying attention to what I was typing in a meeting. Come on work I am trying to read forums here. Anyway the one LGS does not allow Forgeworld and basically anything that is not in escalation as well as no flying gargantuan creatures or dataslates for that matter. So as a bug player I am kind of limited to the primary CAD and that is it.

The primary guy I play against is chaos and he does not have a LoW or titan except a Warhound that is slated for his space wolves army.

I am planning to buy a Hierophant after Thanksgiving as a Christmas present...unless I end up buying the expensive bottle of Scotch instead and the box of cigars I want.

Anything not in escalation as well as no flying gargantuans? Kind of one-sided on tyranids, isn't it? I was going to say "well what about a harridan, then", but I don't see the problem. If you're going to let people have the unholy monstrosity that is the revenant titan, what the hell is wrong with a harridan?

I forgot about acid ichor. That should do a decent job on Imperial Knights, then - especially since you strike first in combat thanks to the lashwhips and biocannon fire should take the odd hull point off before you engage.

Well that scuppers my plans of Warlord Tervi then :p

Crushing Claws it is then WC

 Frozocrone wrote:
@jy2 Ahh fair, thabks for the advice

@everyone

What is the best way to run a Tervigon? It's going to be in the HQ as I can not find the points for Termagant tax. I also think 4 Flyrants at 1250 (double Cad) is too stronk after already running 3 at 1000 and I do need some ground troops (spawned gants could also tarpit)

Egrubs is always on as they are awesome but what would be better? Have it with Miasma Cannon and sit back on an objective, or have Crushing Claws for tank hunting?

And what would make a better Warlord, Tervigon or Flyrant?

4 flyrants is overkill at 1250. Even 2 is more than most armies can handle at that level. Since you are running double-CAD, you can go 2 flyrants + 1 tervigon. As Shuppet has mentioned previously (in our debate about the tervigon), the smaller the game, the bigger the impact the tervigon makes with his spawned units. For example, let's say he generates 10 gants a turn. If this is a 2K army, then he is adding 2% to the army each turn until he runs out. However, at 1250, he is adding 3.2% to the size of the army each turn in free units.

Crushing claws is better than miasma cannon. If he is sitting back on an objective shooting, then you are actually playing it wrong. What he needs to be doing is advancing with the army to act as another threat, which is why you should take crushing claws instead (that is, if you choose to give him an upgrade). Then you can have your "real" troops sit on a backfield objective or just spawn gants to do that. A 200-pt unit is too much just to sit on an objective in your backfield. You need to force your opponent to have to deal with the tervigon as well. Otherwise, it then becomes 1050 of Tyranids vs 1250 of whatever as your opponent can just ignore your tervie.

Awesome, thanks

Could you (and others) look over this list? I'm trying to perfect it for a competitive setting at 1250 points, of which I think it will be Maelstrom, but could be Eternal.

 Frozocrone wrote:
Awesome, thanks

Could you (and others) look over this list? I'm trying to perfect it for a competitive setting at 1250 points, of which I think it will be Maelstrom, but could be Eternal.

Spoiler:

Central Allied Detachment 1

HQ
Hive Tyrant w/ Wings, 2x TL Devourers with BLW, EGrubs = 240
Hive Tyrant w/ Wings, 2x TL Devourers with BLW, EGrubs = 240

Troops
3x Rippers w/ Deep Strike = 45
3x Rippers w/ Deep Strike = 45
3x Rippers w/ Deep Strike = 45

Elites
Malanthrope = 85

Central Allied Detachment 2

HQ
Hive Tyrant w/ Wings, 2x Devourers with BLW, EGrubs = 240
Tervigon w/ Crushing Claws, EGrubs = 220

Troops
3x Rippers w/ Deep Strike = 45
3x Rippers w/ Deep Strike = 45

That isn't a very good list if you are playing maelstrom. You are going to have to table your opponent to outscore savvy ones, which is very possible for many matchups, but if you run into someone you can't table you are in trouble, because most of your units can't help you score maelstrom points, and your opponent has a very, very simple target priority. If that Tervigon goes down you have no board presence.

Instead, consider Dakkafexes or even Dimacharons. Terivigons make more sense at this low point level, but they also don't contribute as much offensively as other options. Here is what I would suggest.

Notice how my list throws more dakka and has a much higher model count. These are the things that win Maelstrom.

Because most of the competitive players are still running EW missions with a small Maelstrom component, mirroring a tradition competitive list is folly.

zerosignal wrote:

locarno24 wrote:
Hmm...

My army list is Tervigon-heavy. It's not the most competitive, I just like the idea of tyranids as this endless tidal wave of chitin. If I could spawn hormagaunts instead of termagants, I'd be all over that, and I keep intending to acquire a load of devourer-armed gaunts for the starting broods, but haven't got around to it.

The tervigon termagant broods have to be vanilla (fleshborers). Hence another reason why they're cack.

CHEERS GEEDUBS

Shoot if you like swarms o' figures I suggest Endless Swarm that way the Big Bugs you include can be "good" (like say a couple of Tyrants) (I posted a list called Endless Tunnel Assault a long while ago)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tag8833 wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

 gameandwatch wrote:
It is alright, definitely WAY too expensive, but still has its uses. Most importantly of which is to produce more backfield fearless troops to hold objectives. The most idiotic change was to his backlash though, in most games I lost more gants to that than anyhing else (on the rare occasion when the terv actually dies)

Backlash can be mitigated. Just move those gants more than 6" from the tervigon or place them in terrain if possible. With the malanthrope nearby, then they can potentially get 3+/2+ cover even against the backlash.

While gants produced can be used to grab objectives, oftentimes, I play them more aggressive than that. Shoot them forwards to be screening units or to try to tie up enemy units (even 1 or 2 turns will help if they are able to tie up an enemy shooty unit). Also, each unit of gant he produces, the enemy needs to waste resources to get rid of. That means less guns against the rest of the army as they try to clear the newly spawned gants.

You mitigate backlash with Hive Commander. Outflank either the Termagants or the Tervigon depending on the situation. I've used this quite a lot, and recommend it if you must take a Tervigon. Still not a competitive build, though.

Word, my standard answer to backlash has been to Outflank it, that way I get a threat into the backfield, and the spawns can bubble wrap, and additional spawns can run off to grab and hold terrain, si IB does little to them.