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There is practically no useless units for Nids now.

I saw practically, the Malefactor still appears to be utter gak

One cute thing to do would be a Beta strike.

Comms relay involved, but turn 2 you DS 3 dakkafexes and 1-3 Devilgant units, mawloc and possibly even DS your flyrants. Just castle up the rest of your army for turn 1 to negate alpha strike armies.

Id enjoy that against serpent spam or tau gunline.

Like

Roughly 1850 (not at home)

Baston w/comms
Flyrant w/devs electro
Flyrant w/devs electro

Malanthrope

Mucolids
20 Devilgant in pod

30 Gargoyles

Carnifex w/devs in pod
Carnifex w/devs in pod
Mawloc

Allied:
Flyrant w/devs electro
Mucolids

 Sinful Hero wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

2.) I'm obviously countin them as I a pod, an
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 Sinful Hero wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
I'm sorry, but podding in Pyrovores and melee-Nids were all introduced in 5th(which was much more friendly to assault units), and they all were abandoned/ignored. Are 3 Pyrovores that much more effective than a Devilfex? Or twenty Devilgants? What are you going to deepstrike next to that isn't going to either shoot you(Grav-Cents/Bikes), assault, or just ran away(Wraithknight/Wave Serpent)? Why have things suddenly changed in an edition that hampers assault?

For starters they had less rules, worse stats, and cost 150% of the current price. Secondly, they contested the elite slot with the very most important units in the dex, including Hive Guard, Zopes, Doom, and Ymgarls. H'll Venomthropes were useful back then and they couldn't even find a slot. Thirdly, pods were less justifiable on their own merits, being in scoring blobs of tank but offering very little in the way of BLASTING CANNONS IN EVERY DIRECTION, with the new model actually offering quite cost effective firepower for the price.

The Pod is not the issue at all here- 40pts to add deep-strike plus a contesting MC that could crush vehicles. I want to know why paying 75pts for deepstrike helps melee units currently.

Pyrovore is pretty versatile, melee being an upside, the selling point being the fact that it nukes a squad preferably in ruins or cover with S5 auto hits, somewhat like Biovores except more risqué, aggressive, hard hitting, and not in your HQ slot.

I'm sure you don't need explanation of how the Dima / Dakkafex are good in these things?

Dakkafexes are obvious- is that one turn sitting in the face of your opponent going to help the Dimachareon? I would appreciate hearing your thoughts on that.

Will it help it? Vastly. I can see a debate for it not being enough, as the Dima was in a pretty bad state before pods, and still struggles with speed even landing face to face with its target. 1 turn of shooting as opposed to 3-5 is pretty big, especially since you were unlikely to get an optimal combat even after all that. I was probably the biggest anti-Dima person on these forums, but with a pod, I gotta say that actually puts it in a really good place.


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 Frozocrone wrote:
There is practically no useless units for Nids now.

I saw practically, the Malefactor still appears to be utter gak

Harpy
hive guard
Trygon
Tervigon
Old one eye
Skyslasher swarms
Spore Mines
Raveners
Haruspex



But yes the list is much smaller

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

2.) I'm obviously countin them as I a pod, an
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sinful Hero wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
I'm sorry, but podding in Pyrovores and melee-Nids were all introduced in 5th(which was much more friendly to assault units), and they all were abandoned/ignored. Are 3 Pyrovores that much more effective than a Devilfex? Or twenty Devilgants? What are you going to deepstrike next to that isn't going to either shoot you(Grav-Cents/Bikes), assault, or just ran away(Wraithknight/Wave Serpent)? Why have things suddenly changed in an edition that hampers assault?

For starters they had less rules, worse stats, and cost 150% of the current price. Secondly, they contested the elite slot with the very most important units in the dex, including Hive Guard, Zopes, Doom, and Ymgarls. H'll Venomthropes were useful back then and they couldn't even find a slot. Thirdly, pods were less justifiable on their own merits, being in scoring blobs of tank but offering very little in the way of BLASTING CANNONS IN EVERY DIRECTION, with the new model actually offering quite cost effective firepower for the price.

The Pod is not the issue at all here- 40pts to add deep-strike plus a contesting MC that could crush vehicles. I want to know why paying 75pts for deepstrike helps melee units currently.

Pyrovore is pretty versatile, melee being an upside, the selling point being the fact that it nukes a squad preferably in ruins or cover with S5 auto hits, somewhat like Biovores except more risqué, aggressive, hard hitting, and not in your HQ slot.

I'm sure you don't need explanation of how the Dima / Dakkafex are good in these things?

Dakkafexes are obvious- is that one turn sitting in the face of your opponent going to help the Dimachareon? I would appreciate hearing your thoughts on that.

Will it help it? Vastly. I can see a debate for it not being enough, as the Dima was in a pretty bad state before pods, and still struggles with speed even landing face to face with its target. 1 turn of shooting as opposed to 3-5 is pretty big, especially since you were unlikely to get an optimal combat even after all that. I was probably the biggest anti-Dima person on these forums, but with a pod, I gotta say that actually puts it in a really good place.


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 Frozocrone wrote:
There is practically no useless units for Nids now.

I saw practically, the Malefactor still appears to be utter gak

Harpy
hive guard
Trygon
Tervigon
Swarmlord
Old one eye
Skyslasher swarms
Spore Mines
Raveners
Haruspex
But yes the list is much smaller

I wouldn't say Hive Guard or Swarmlord are useless now.

Wouldn't a Devilfex be a better choice though? It will shoot twice and charge(along with the pod's shooting), while the Dima will just be relying on the pod's shooting until it eventually charges. Basically 24 twinlinked S6 shots, a charge, and pod versus pod's shooting and a charge.

 Iechine wrote:
I think 20 devil gants DSing is the main competitive unit to take. I also may see the mucolid's replacing ripper swarms to an extent, as they have the same 3 wound/T3 profile only cheaper (and arguably more dangerous when threatened). Plus they dont bite each other.

Interesting stuff to think about for sure.

20 is expensive...I'd definitely take a padding of 5 or 6 stock gants to die before the line of devils.

HG most definitely useless, in fact that got WORSE than before by being p much the one of the only unit not to benefit from its, and since he was already an drastically underpowered unit the disparity between him and his competition is even further slanted against him




Swarmlord fair enough, not unplayable. Just unlikely to ever be better than a bastion + Dima I suspect.

Haha yes SHUPPET, completely forgot about all of them

The Trygon in particular has no place in Tyranids at all now. It's last viable tactic IMO, was to Deep Strike and have a tunnel for DevilGants to come out of and start shooting, which has just been usurped by the Pods that do it cheaper and better as they can fire better guns (and unload the DevilGants) the turn they come in.

The only real use of the Trygon now is to have the tunnel for Endless Swarm, where you can regenerate Gaunts. But in a tournament setting you may be limited to two sources - I would find it difficult to give up Skyblight/Living Artillery for Endless Swarm (am aware of other formations, these just happen to be the most notable formations for Nids).

As was pointed out to me before, Devilfexes put out so much shooting the only niche Hive Guard have are against AV13+ and jinking vehicles.

 Sinful Hero wrote:
Wouldn't a Devilfex be a better choice though? It will shoot twice and charge(along with the pod's shooting), while the Dima will just be relying on the pod's shooting until it eventually charges. Basically 24 twinlinked S6 shots, a charge, and pod versus pod's shooting and a charge.

Well, depends how you look at Dimas charge I guess. It's really strong and hits MUCH harder than the 18x S6 Ap- hits the Carnifex will make by that point. Obviously he's worse vs smaller things, and his inability to pick targets was always a big issue for him. But Now he can force himself upon whichever big mofo he shall choose. Also, he is much harder to bring down, especially since he can get his Catalyst much quicker and more reliably now. He also takes up a next to useless FA slot instead of a critical HS one which may be relevant. There is targets out there that a Dima can face rush into and a carnifex cannot however, eg things like Thunderwolves.

But you are right. Carnifex is STILL a better model and much more versatile, and should definitely be taken over a Dima.

The Dima is just very playable now however and a couple may just be impossible for many teams to stop, they can really sweep. No longer an uncompetitive choice. Definitely in a good place now.

How useful it is remains to be seen however, you may be right and it's use may be too niche to justify over a Dakkafex. Or maybe it's added durability and RAMPAGEMODE might be enough to give it enough of an edge in enough match ups to be justifiable. One things for certain however, it's no longer the autolose it once was. Yesterday. Lol.

A little math hammer to consider.

Unmodified:
Odds of a pod coming in turn 2: 66%
Odds of a pod coming in turn 3: 22%
Odds of a pod coming in turn 4: 11%

With rerolls from comms relay or the warlord trait:
Odds of a pod coming in turn 2: 89%
Odds of a pod coming in turn 3: 10%
Odds of a pod coming in turn 4: 1%

With Swarmlord's +1 to reserves:
Odds of a pod coming in turn 2: 83%
Odds of a pod coming in turn 3: 14%
Odds of a pod coming in turn 4: 3%

I generally wouldn't be all that worried about 11% but yesterday I lost a game to that 11%.

So, in cases of 2 or more pods I highly recommend a Comms Relay.

----------------------

What does everyone think of the Instinctive Fire Rule

Each weapon on this model automatically fires at the nearest enemy unit within range and Line of sight. The shots are resolved at the end of the shooting phase before morale checks are taken.

Each Weapon can fire at a different target, but they cannot be fired in any other way or at any other Phase?[The last word is extremely hard to make out, I think it is saying that they can't overwatch]

So It feels like it grants permission to fire all 5 guns, but it feels like the writers of that rule don't know an MC from a vehicle, and expects us to draw line of sight from the gun instead of the model. Is it telling us to do that?

Three deep-striking Shock Cannon Hive Guard might be worth a try against a parking lot, especially if you throw in the Electroshock Grubs on a Tervigon/Tyrannofex/Tyrant to finish things off.

 Sinful Hero wrote:
As was pointed out to me before, Devilfexes put out so much shooting the only niche Hive Guard have are against AV13+ and jinking vehicles.

Dakkafexes are far better here, but it was actually DevilGANTS that I pointed out as being better than them, who still out damage hive guard EVEN VERSE JINKING SKIMMERS, and for cheaper too, which shows how bottom of the barrel HG really are right now.

@tag It is. Draw LOS and range from each gun is what the rule explicitly tells you to do- and each gun can fire at a different target.

I actually think that last line refers to Synapse doesn't override the instinctive Fire rule. It's always closest.


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 SHUPPET wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
As was pointed out to me before, Devilfexes put out so much shooting the only niche Hive Guard have are against AV13+ and jinking vehicles.

Dakkafexes are far better here, but it was actually DevilGANTS that I pointed out as being better than them, who still out damage hive guard EVEN VERSE JINKING SKIMMERS, and for cheaper too, which shows how bottom of the barrel HG really are right now.

I was actually referring to I think tag(?) putting me in my place on them- could have been you. Could have been both actually- I was comparing Hive Guard to Devilfexes(but I wasn't counting the second set of devourers in my head). Hive Guard even only have a marginal benefit against jinking skimmers verses Fexes. Flyrants can sometimes be enough to handle AV-13-14 you might encounter, so Hive Guard have a very hard time finding a place.

 Sinful Hero wrote:
@tag It is. Draw LOS and range from each gun is what the rule explicitly tells you to do- and each gun can fire at a different target.

I actually think that last line refers to Synapse doesn't help the instinctive Fire rule. It's always closest.

Wow that's gunna be ridiculously time consuming, especially considering if they are all in different positions on the model making multiple LoS checks necessary, it's blasts so you have to line up scatters, and have to roll even if they couldn't wound because of scatter chance, and have to do this 5 times, and then have to do it all again for every single pod.... wtf thats just ridiculous writing for a massive scale tabletop game

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
@tag It is. Draw LOS and range from each gun is what the rule explicitly tells you to do- and each gun can fire at a different target.

I actually think that last line refers to Synapse doesn't help the instinctive Fire rule. It's always closest.

Wow that's gunna be ridiculously time consuming, especially considering they are all in different positions on the model making multiple LoS checks necessary, it's blasts so you have to line up scatters, and have to roll even if they couldn't wound because of scatter chance, and have to do this 5 times, and then have to do it all again for every single pod.... wtf thats just ridiculous writing for a massive scale tabletop game

It could be just assuming you'll take Deathspitters every time. No need for placement and scatterdie then.

Do you have to place the blast markers on the closest model? So they won't be nearly as effective as placing them in the center of a blob. I suppose since it says unit you wouldn't have to do that...

 Sinful Hero wrote:
@tag It is. Draw LOS and range from each gun is what the rule explicitly tells you to do- and each gun can fire at a different target.

I actually think that last line refers to Synapse doesn't override the instinctive Fire rule. It's always closest.


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 SHUPPET wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
As was pointed out to me before, Devilfexes put out so much shooting the only niche Hive Guard have are against AV13+ and jinking vehicles.

Dakkafexes are far better here, but it was actually DevilGANTS that I pointed out as being better than them, who still out damage hive guard EVEN VERSE JINKING SKIMMERS, and for cheaper too, which shows how bottom of the barrel HG really are right now.

I was actually referring to I think tag(?) putting me in my place on them- could have been you. Could have been both actually- I was comparing Hive Guard to Devilfexes(but I wasn't counting the second set of devourers in my head). Hive Guard even only have a marginal benefit against jinking skimmers verses Fexes. Flyrants can sometimes be enough to handle AV-13-14 you might encounter, so Hive Guard have a very hard time finding a place.

Oh you mean from a bit ago, yeah well there's that, but I think the idea for resurgence was usinHG for S8 rear armour with pods. However, the same effectiveness competition stands with Dakkafex, and Devilgants completely outclass

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
@tag It is. Draw LOS and range from each gun is what the rule explicitly tells you to do- and each gun can fire at a different target.

I actually think that last line refers to Synapse doesn't override the instinctive Fire rule. It's always closest.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
As was pointed out to me before, Devilfexes put out so much shooting the only niche Hive Guard have are against AV13+ and jinking vehicles.

Dakkafexes are far better here, but it was actually DevilGANTS that I pointed out as being better than them, who still out damage hive guard EVEN VERSE JINKING SKIMMERS, and for cheaper too, which shows how bottom of the barrel HG really are right now.

I was actually referring to I think tag(?) putting me in my place on them- could have been you. Could have been both actually- I was comparing Hive Guard to Devilfexes(but I wasn't counting the second set of devourers in my head). Hive Guard even only have a marginal benefit against jinking skimmers verses Fexes. Flyrants can sometimes be enough to handle AV-13-14 you might encounter, so Hive Guard have a very hard time finding a place.

Oh you mean from a bit ago, yeah well there's that, but I think the idea for resurgence was usinHG for S8 rear armour with pods. However, the same effectiveness competition stands with Dakkafex, and Devilgants completely outclass

Unless you're facing rear-armor 11+, then Devilgants are pretty much useless there. Pretty much Hive Guard are good at 13+(So Necrons?).

 Sinful Hero wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
@tag It is. Draw LOS and range from each gun is what the rule explicitly tells you to do- and each gun can fire at a different target.

I actually think that last line refers to Synapse doesn't help the instinctive Fire rule. It's always closest.

Wow that's gunna be ridiculously time consuming, especially considering they are all in different positions on the model making multiple LoS checks necessary, it's blasts so you have to line up scatters, and have to roll even if they couldn't wound because of scatter chance, and have to do this 5 times, and then have to do it all again for every single pod.... wtf thats just ridiculous writing for a massive scale tabletop game

It could be just assuming you'll take Deathspitters every time. No need for placement and scatterdie then.

Do you have to place the blast markers on the closest model? So they won't be nearly as effective as placing them in the center of a blob. I suppose since it says unit you wouldn't have to do that...

That's a loss of efficiency as the best way to kit these things is without a doubt 5 venom cannons.

And yeah you are correct on that ruling.

Anyone know what the placing the weapons is like in relation to the model? Are we talking side sponsons or dozerblades here?


Not much FA13/14+RA11/12 in the game making taking HG in a pod extremely niche. Because if they have equal front armour, the pod for rear armour is wasted points, if they have weaker rear armour it's usually 10. The very few relevant vehicles in competitive play that have a different profile are nowhere near common enough to sacrificing this amount for a slight buff in DPS against their rear armour, and all with a massive range advantage allowing them to outplay you by sitting on the back denying your pod rearm armour shots and more or less wasting a 250 pt (Flyrant size) dedication of HG+crone. Making HG not just niche but borderline useless and terms still more useful than them most likely.


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Zopes. In the edition of jink, are Zoanthropes even viable assuming you land pod in optimL range, use 4 or more warp charge to even have a positive chance of rolling to manifest, hit off a single BS4 roll,and then successfully pen the feth out of something?

"I jink one of my 6 x65 pt Venoms, or look at I rolled a 4, better luck next time"

As an MC all the weapons should have a 360 degree arc of fire.

Zopes would probably be better for podding in Psychic Scream. The single shot Warp Blast requires too many rolls. Roll to manifest, roll to hit, roll to penetrate, and then any applicable saves. I don't think taking away the range problem helps.


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In most cases you're still only taking away a single hullpoint and maybe stunning it for a turn.


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Unless that's exactly what you need of course.

 Sinful Hero wrote:
As an MC all the weapons should have a 360 degree arc of fire.

Zopes would probably be better for podding in Psychic Scream. The single shot Warp Blast requires too many rolls. Roll to manifest, roll to hit, roll to penetrate, and then any applicable saves. I don't think taking away the range problem helps.


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In most cases you're still only taking away a single hullpoint and maybe stunning it for a turn.

Yup I agree. Except in an army with Zopes you don't want to be running pods, and vice versa, the only time these two have any synergy is when you roll the scream, as far as army compositions they work very badly together

I am squealing like a little girl right now.The horror of the first release has been wiped away.

You guys are more tactically inclined than me, so I have been enjoying reading the discussions so far.

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
As an MC all the weapons should have a 360 degree arc of fire.

Zopes would probably be better for podding in Psychic Scream. The single shot Warp Blast requires too many rolls. Roll to manifest, roll to hit, roll to penetrate, and then any applicable saves. I don't think taking away the range problem helps.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In most cases you're still only taking away a single hullpoint and maybe stunning it for a turn.

Yup I agree. Except in an army with Zopes you don't want to be running pods, and vice versa, the only time these two have any synergy is when you roll the scream, as far as army compositions they work very badly together

Well, the pod's not a DT, so you can always make the decision on the fly before you deploy. Against AM/IG I could definitely see some value in dropping a Zoan behind a large blob that is hiding behind an Aegis, and hitting it from behind with the large blast. You could negate all their cover saves and potentially kill the priest hiding in the back. Plus, y'know, five venom cannons.

So many options all of a sudden....

I really like the new mucolid


They come from troops slots

3 for 45 points, deep strike shrouded, fearless T3 and W3 each, so not trivial to kill off, if they assault next turn they do a str 10 ap 3 large blast that ignores cover saves and can hit flyers/Swooping monstrous creatures.

hope they have a separate kit of 3.

the pod does make the toxicrene look not so terrible now

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
@tag It is. Draw LOS and range from each gun is what the rule explicitly tells you to do- and each gun can fire at a different target.

I actually think that last line refers to Synapse doesn't help the instinctive Fire rule. It's always closest.

Wow that's gunna be ridiculously time consuming, especially considering if they are all in different positions on the model making multiple LoS checks necessary, it's blasts so you have to line up scatters, and have to roll even if they couldn't wound because of scatter chance, and have to do this 5 times, and then have to do it all again for every single pod.... wtf thats just ridiculous writing for a massive scale tabletop game

There is a 30K drop pod that works this way. Only, it fires 36" S8 AP3 Assault 2 at BS 4 instead of 18" S5 AP5 Assault 3 at BS2.

There's some nasty gak you can do with Sporocyst since they can infiltrate. They're 6 inches wide, plus add .75 on each side for the enemy not to move through.

You can block off whole portions of the board with them to anything that is not a Jump Infantry or Skimmer. Kind of interesting since they can make Spore Mine Clusters.

Plus this means that you can just infiltrate 1 out of LOS of your opponents army, then just reserve the rest of your army.

Kind of neat.

Sorry, double post.

Hollismason wrote:
There's some nasty gak you can do with Sporocyst since they can infiltrate. They're 6 inches wide, plus add .75 on each side for the enemy not to move through.

You can block off whole portions of the board with them to anything that is not a Jump Infantry or Skimmer. Kind of interesting since they can make Spore Mine Clusters.

Plus this means that you can just infiltrate 1 out of LOS of your opponents army, then just reserve the rest of your army.

Kind of neat.

Why are they so big? 6" wide? Wider than a Barbed Hierodule (5.5")? They don't need to be gigantic.

Look at the picture of it. It's claws extend outward, it's like the size of a large Blast if not bigger.

Six of them with weapons would be 600 points and I think that'd produce 18 Spore Mines a Turn. You could then I guess drop pod in that Tyranid that poops other Tyranids.

So put these in near the deployment zone then Drop Pod in the Mother tyranid , poop out some Termagants in your opponents deployment zone and you are good to go.

 Sinful Hero wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Sinful Hero wrote:
@tag It is. Draw LOS and range from each gun is what the rule explicitly tells you to do- and each gun can fire at a different target.

I actually think that last line refers to Synapse doesn't help the instinctive Fire rule. It's always closest.

Wow that's gunna be ridiculously time consuming, especially considering they are all in different positions on the model making multiple LoS checks necessary, it's blasts so you have to line up scatters, and have to roll even if they couldn't wound because of scatter chance, and have to do this 5 times, and then have to do it all again for every single pod.... wtf thats just ridiculous writing for a massive scale tabletop game

It could be just assuming you'll take Deathspitters every time. No need for placement and scatterdie then.

Do you have to place the blast markers on the closest model? So they won't be nearly as effective as placing them in the center of a blob. I suppose since it says unit you wouldn't have to do that...

I'd interpret that as place the 'hole" of the Blast over the closest.