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2014/11/13 08:50:39
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Knight Tactica p.177)
Thats all very true - just an option and highly dependant on the other units in your build I'd say. Dropodding Dakkafex for example might make up for some of those mobility issues. I think it's an option to consider, because the damage output of the Swarmy is pretty amazing and in a build with plenty of galss cannons like lictors and Dakkafex and Dima, he could really work
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2014/11/13 08:55:35
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Knight Tactica p.177)
These pics are pre-light box, I've got one arriving tomorrow and will hopefully get some more accurate photos, my camera is light finicky.
This is pretty sic, Iechine. You should get 1 for yourself.
Wilson wrote: With the success of the assassins brood at the GT last week and the reintroduction of the new units I wanted to try out a 1845 competetive list using self allies. thoughts?
Zoans and Neuro to work with death leaper and his boys for spirit leach antics and distract from flyrants/ Dima. I think I'm pretty happy without a bastion/coms relay.
There isn't much here for me to add that hasn't already been said, but I will add my comments as well.
1. This list wouldn't be valid in many competitive metas, as it uses 3 sources when the limit for most tourneys are 2. But if you aren't planning on running it for tournaments, then that's fine.
2. While flyrants are probably the best unit in our dex, they don't really take advantage of the lictors well (or should I say the lictors don't really benefit them all that much). You want something that can benefit from the lictors. Precision dropping spores are ok, but they really aren't all that necessarily in this case. Dima can be a little off, as can the zoans because the range of their shooting can offset their deviation from landing. The unit that complements lictors best IMO are the mawlocs. They are cheap so you can go full MSU and they really benefit from using lictors as homing beacons.
3. As others have said, you need a way to manipulate reserves.
My suggestion would be to drop 1 flyrant to keep it to 2-detachments so you can use it both in tournament and casual play. Then get a bastion + comms and mawloc to round out the list. If you need more points, you can also drop 1 unit of rippers.
Very fair comments, I think i'll drop the third tyrant and rippers and look to fit two Mawlocs + a bastion in somewhere. Merci.
2014/11/13 10:07:08
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Knight Tactica p.177)
Question: does nobody think that the "spore pod" shooting rules are weird? Every gun shoots at the closest target but their no rules saying there has to be line of sight from the gun to the target. So if you drop a pod in front of the enemies army its still possible to shoot the pods guns at the back even when theirs no direct line of sight from the gun? Am I missing sum thing?
2014/11/13 10:36:10
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Knight Tactica p.177)
SHUPPET wrote: I think on lists where you are planning on reserving stuff, but still opening with units on the field (DLAB) that its an excellent opportunity to take a Swarmlord instead of the Bastion.
For 20 pts more than a Flyrant + Bastion w/Comms, you can get a Swarmlord + Pod, giving you practically the same chance to reserve rolls, and a Swarmlord deepstriking in to wreck face.
And this is coming from me, the guy who hasn't had anything positive to say about Swarmlord to date. He seems really good in these lists.
I think there is great potential for an aggressive deep strike Swarmlord list. Tyrannocytes give us quite a toolbox now when added to the existing high quality deep strikers/alternative deployers we can use.
- The Tervigon/Tyrannocyte combination is an amazing, bringing an MC brick (with Crushing Claws parking lots cannot ignore it), a Thorax swarm of some sort (Shreddershard to dig something out of cover?), Termagants capturing an objective 12+D6" from where you land and the spore itself as a mobile gun turret/cover save. That's a lot of impact on the board on the turn it lands.
- Mawlocs love the +1 to Reserves, and serve as a great "dig the enemy out of cover" model (plus they are so cheap).
- Exocrines also love their Tyrannocytes; deep striking completely mitigates the short range of their cannon.
- The tried and tested 20 Devilgaunts in a spore work wonders, but if you're going with a Troops Tervigon it might be better to simply bite the bullet, take 30 and Outflank them with a Hive Commander Tyrant? Outflanking is still great.
- Malanthropes inside Tyrannocytes get you your Shrouding, even up close and personal with your enemy (and their resilience gives them the edge of Venomthropes, especially when you're surrounded by enemies). You're also a lot closer to enemy units to make a play for Prey Adaptation.
- Zoanthropes/Neurothropes are an expensive option (400 points for 6 and the spore) in a Tyrannocyte, but you can give them Preferred Enemy (thanks Swarmlord) to compensate for the to-hit roll a little. Failing that, for anti-tank you could also play three Shockcannon Hive Guard (cheaper at 255 including the spore), giving you three Haywire blasts on that parking lot.
- The Swarmlord itself is awesome at counter-assault (opponents might be tempted to ignore it on the turn it lands after you unleash all of your firepower and the Swarmlord does "nothing"), particularly when your ranged units are mediocre in assault themselves.
Maybe throw something together like this?
Swarmlord + Tyrannocyte (360)
Flyrant, Hive Commander, double Devourer and Egrubs (260)
That comes to 2000 exactly, gives you a Venom/Biovore/Tyrant (with 2+ Jink) on the board on turn 1 to avoid tabling (and to hold your home objectives) and then on turn 2 puts a whole lot of fun on the board. It is lacking in anti-air power but with a list like this I'm not sure what I would add in for that except Crones...
It also gives you 5 Tyrannocytes and some extremely nasty close-ranged firepower right where you need it.
2014/11/13 11:09:18
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Knight Tactica p.177)
I think you've nailed a lot of it. I think outflanking is probably better for 30 devilgants. In for a penny in for a pound with those guys imo.
However I don't think its safe to call Tervigons amazing. They are still overpriced, and why would anyone ever want to ignore it? It's an excellent unit to shoot at, every shot that goes their way chips off a lot of points in comparison to most the rest of our MCs, they also bring other units down with them, and the quicker they die the better the pay off for your opponent because less Gant spawns. Crushing Claws just makes this even worse. Don't feel obligated to take one of these just because you choose to go 30 gants.
Malanthropes in a pod sounds good on paper, but I feel like the investment just won't pay off, not being able to outrange any guns or hide out of LoS, early game as well while they still have a large chunk of their army, I just feel like its a flawed concept for 150 pts.
I also wonder about the worth of using a pod on an Exocrine who has quite decent range in comparison the rest of our army anyway, but I suppose it secures that BS4 from the get go. Still seems kinda iffy to me.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/13 11:10:05
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2014/11/13 12:04:44
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Knight Tactica p.177)
This is pretty sic, Iechine. You should get 1 for yourself.
I thought about it. I know he's made more awesome now with drop pods, but I've struggled to find a spot for him in my list. It doesnt help that I personally really dislike the model.
Wilson wrote: With the success of the assassins brood at the GT last week and the reintroduction of the new units I wanted to try out a 1845 competetive list using self allies. thoughts?
Zoans and Neuro to work with death leaper and his boys for spirit leach antics and distract from flyrants/ Dima. I think I'm pretty happy without a bastion/coms relay.
What role does the malanthrope play in this list aside from providing turn 1 shrouded? most of your army is highly mobile / deep striking so I don't feel you would get much additional benefit from using him compared to a venom in a box. That would free up 40 points as well. Thoughts?
2014/11/13 13:10:25
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Knight Tactica p.177)
Wilson wrote: With the success of the assassins brood at the GT last week and the reintroduction of the new units I wanted to try out a 1845 competetive list using self allies. thoughts?
Zoans and Neuro to work with death leaper and his boys for spirit leach antics and distract from flyrants/ Dima. I think I'm pretty happy without a bastion/coms relay.
What role does the malanthrope play in this list aside from providing turn 1 shrouded? most of your army is highly mobile / deep striking so I don't feel you would get much additional benefit from using him compared to a venom in a box. That would free up 40 points as well. Thoughts?
I suppose you are right, I just love the model so much.
2014/11/13 13:25:29
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Knight Tactica p.177)
SHUPPET wrote: I think on lists where you are planning on reserving stuff, but still opening with units on the field (DLAB) that its an excellent opportunity to take a Swarmlord instead of the Bastion.
For 20 pts more than a Flyrant + Bastion w/Comms, you can get a Swarmlord + Pod, giving you practically the same chance to reserve rolls, and a Swarmlord deepstriking in to wreck face.
And this is coming from me, the guy who hasn't had anything positive to say about Swarmlord to date. He seems really good in these lists.
The problem is Swarmy can't do nearly as much damage as a flyrant. He also has the Dimacharon problem. He is too good in close combat to stay safe there. And then there is the problem of him being pretty easy to kill.
The Tyrant Guard are so important to Swarmlord's effectiveness.
1) If you give one Crushing claws now Swarmlord's squad is threatening to vehicles
2) They add extra attacks in case Swarmlord runs into something with a good invul.
3) *Most Important* They allow him to multi-assault. By grabbing 2 squads he can avoid overrunning one, and stay safely locked in combat for a turn.
4) They add extra wounds, and in a way that is easy to do wound allocation shenanigance.
2014/11/13 13:54:36
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Knight Tactica p.177)
Swarmlord would be a good option for Pod heavy lists, but I would probably take him in another CAD, it's hard to pass up two Flyrants in favour of a CC monster that either runs up as fast as possible with ablative wounds, or drops in and is vulnerable to enemy fire.
YMDC = nightmare
2014/11/13 14:00:26
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Knight Tactica p.177)
ductvader wrote: To be honest...A Prime in a pod can be kitted to Tyrant Combat ability for a similar cost...and can take a big old bodyguard.
Only real downside...and its a sizable one...no AP2 outside of rends.
A prime in a pod with lw/bs is 220, an HT with wings and lw/bs is 220 and has the benefit of ML2, better combat stats, harder to kill and can jink for a 4+ cover save at any time
Prime has the upside of being able to attach to units and can take flesh hooks, that's about it I think
2014/11/13 14:25:50
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Knight Tactica p.177)
Terror from the Deep wrote: A comparison of Swarmy, Dimachaeron and a Meleerant with Wings will be interesting to see how they all fare in CC
Dimachaeron would come out top as it's hitting most things on 3+ like swarm lord and Tyrants but it's attacks outwheigh the others
Tyrant:4(5)
Swarmlord:4(5)
Dimachaeron:5(6) +D3 when outnumbered.
yeah.. I don't think we need an excel statistical sheet to show which one is better...
Dima has more wounds, is cheaper, is WS8, has more attacks and is S8 on the charge with sickle claws.
Good point, the HT has all the intangibles which can't be measured in CC I guess - fearless, 4+ jink, ML2 and is far more mobile with wings...
fearless is quite a big downside actually that is worth noting! it means you need something with synapse in range to prevent it being run down in the off chance it loses CC.
So on an unrelated note, how would this list far? completely ignoring new releases;
Terror from the Deep wrote: A comparison of Swarmy, Dimachaeron and a Meleerant with Wings will be interesting to see how they all fare in CC
I will run the numbers for you, if you can tell me some likely targets (around 10). For instance:
10 Tactical Marines
Wraith Knight
Dread Knight
Imperial Knight
20 Ork Boyz
2014/11/13 15:08:58
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Knight Tactica p.177)
Terror from the Deep wrote: A comparison of Swarmy, Dimachaeron and a Meleerant with Wings will be interesting to see how they all fare in CC
Dimachaeron would come out top as it's hitting most things on 3+ like swarm lord and Tyrants but it's attacks outwheigh the others
Tyrant:4(5)
Swarmlord:4(5)
Dimachaeron:5(6) +D3 when outnumbered.
yeah.. I don't think we need an excel statistical sheet to show which one is better...
Dima has more wounds, is cheaper, is WS8, has more attacks and is S8 on the charge with sickle claws.
Good point, the HT has all the intangibles which can't be measured in CC I guess - fearless, 4+ jink, ML2 and is far more mobile with wings...
fearless is quite a big downside actually that is worth noting! it means you need something with synapse in range to prevent it being run down in the off chance it loses CC.
So on an unrelated note, how would this list far? completely ignoring new releases;
6 FMC with demon summoning support.
10 WC+D6 a turn
I may be mistaken, but this list could be pretty nasty, no?
Believe it or not, the Malanthrope-in-a-box doesn't offer you as much as you would think in a list like this. You don't get the anti-alpha strike protection, but giving it up allows you to make a list like this:
2 Flyrants w/guns and Grubs
Zoanthrope
Zoanthrope
Rippers w/Deep Strike
Rippers w/Deep Strike
Hive Crone
Hive Crone
Lord of Change (ML3), exalted
11 Pink Horrors
8 Screamers
Daemon Prince w/Mark of Tzentch, Daemonic Flight, ML3
I don't recall if this was the same list that Hulksmash posted or my own variant on it (all kudos to him for the idea in any case) but this gives you 16 + d6 warp charge and a screamer unit that can really benefit. I'd probably have the prince roll twice on telepathy to try and get invis/shrouding and then once on demonology.
2014/11/13 15:27:16
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Knight Tactica p.177)
Terror from the Deep wrote: A comparison of Swarmy, Dimachaeron and a Meleerant with Wings will be interesting to see how they all fare in CC
I will run the numbers for you, if you can tell me some likely targets (around 10). For instance:
10 Tactical Marines
Wraith Knight
Dread Knight
Imperial Knight
20 Ork Boyz
Please do Nurgle Bikes and TWC!
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2014/11/13 15:29:02
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Knight Tactica p.177)
Terror from the Deep wrote: A comparison of Swarmy, Dimachaeron and a Meleerant with Wings will be interesting to see how they all fare in CC
Dimachaeron would come out top as it's hitting most things on 3+ like swarm lord and Tyrants but it's attacks outwheigh the others
Tyrant:4(5)
Swarmlord:4(5)
Dimachaeron:5(6) +D3 when outnumbered.
yeah.. I don't think we need an excel statistical sheet to show which one is better...
Dima has more wounds, is cheaper, is WS8, has more attacks and is S8 on the charge with sickle claws.
Good point, the HT has all the intangibles which can't be measured in CC I guess - fearless, 4+ jink, ML2 and is far more mobile with wings...
fearless is quite a big downside actually that is worth noting! it means you need something with synapse in range to prevent it being run down in the off chance it loses CC.
So on an unrelated note, how would this list far? completely ignoring new releases;
6 FMC with demon summoning support.
10 WC+D6 a turn
I may be mistaken, but this list could be pretty nasty, no?
Believe it or not, the Malanthrope-in-a-box doesn't offer you as much as you would think in a list like this. You don't get the anti-alpha strike protection, but giving it up allows you to make a list like this:
2 Flyrants w/guns and Grubs
Zoanthrope
Zoanthrope
Rippers w/Deep Strike
Rippers w/Deep Strike
Hive Crone
Hive Crone
Lord of Change (ML3), exalted
11 Pink Horrors
8 Screamers
Daemon Prince w/Mark of Tzentch, Daemonic Flight, ML3
I don't recall if this was the same list that Hulksmash posted or my own variant on it (all kudos to him for the idea in any case) but this gives you 16 + d6 warp charge and a screamer unit that can really benefit. I'd probably have the prince roll twice on telepathy to try and get invis/shrouding and then once on demonology.
I would disagree with you there, well placed Malan/bastion and the 4 Nid FMC's will Garuntee 2+ jink saves for at least two turns for all 4 and are key to denial alpha strikes.
I agree 11 horrors would make more sense and screamers would be awesome but you are removing the two mawlocs as well which I would not want to do as they provide ranged ap2 ignores cover.
2014/11/13 15:29:24
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Knight Tactica p.177)
Terror from the Deep wrote: A comparison of Swarmy, Dimachaeron and a Meleerant with Wings will be interesting to see how they all fare in CC
Swarmlord:4(5)
Swarmlord has 2 pairs of CCW's. So he actually has 5 attacks base, and 6 on the charge. Instant Death on every wound. He is also WS9 instead of 8, and has a 4++, so he is actually more survivable in most close combats that go longer than 1 round. If he weren't 1.5 times the cost of the Dimacharon, he would be a better choice by far.
Even with the cost differential, his support ability is worth it. The main reason people who are willing to take a Dimacharon don't take Swarmlord is that it means 1 fewer flyrants.
2014/11/13 15:30:07
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Knight Tactica p.177)
A benefit for Melee Tyrants/Swarmlord is that they can roll for Psychic Powers and if they so happen to get either Paroxysm/Catalyst/The Horror, they can greatly increase their survivability if they are manifested.
Winged Tyrants can also jink if need be
They also don't need to test for Fear, unlike the Dimachaeron outside Synapse (a minor point since Flyrants and Dimachaerons are usually in the same vicinity, but there is nothing as demoralizing than rolling 11 when you charge a Wraithknight).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/13 15:30:40
YMDC = nightmare
2014/11/13 15:34:16
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Knight Tactica p.177)
Demon Prince
Mark of Tzeentch
armour
flight
Exalted reward
ML2
6 FMC with demon summoning support.
10 WC+D6 a turn
I may be mistaken, but this list could be pretty nasty, no?
My suggestions:
1. You really don't need a malanthrope in this case. I'd downgrade him to just a venomthrope or just dump him altogether.
2. Here is where you can consider zoans for psychic support.
3. If you can, I'd upgrade your DP to Level 3. Also, try to raise your horrors to a unit of 11 for +1 Warp Charge.
Malan provides synapse in the DZ, is fearless and can wonder out of the bastion should it be destroyed to claim objectives should it need to.
A venom does none of these things/ is too vulnerable.
2014/11/13 16:00:36
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - The Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Knight Tactica p.177)
Terror from the Deep wrote: A comparison of Swarmy, Dimachaeron and a Meleerant with Wings will be interesting to see how they all fare in CC
I will run the numbers for you, if you can tell me some likely targets (around 10). For instance:
10 Tactical Marines
Wraith Knight
Dread Knight
Imperial Knight
20 Ork Boyz
Please do Nurgle Bikes and TWC!
I will if you give me Toughness, Armor Save, Invul, and FNP expectations. TWC can choose a SS or not, and I don't know Nurgle Bikes off the top of my head.
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