Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
2014/11/24 04:50:17
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Eldercaveman wrote: So just how fragile is a Tyrant from a Skytyrant formation. To me it seems like it could be one of the best ways to get a fourth tyrant into a Leviathan list (only allowing one detachment + formation). But does the T3 kill it?
I did a test scenario. 30 Gargoyles+Reaper Tyrant + Malanthrope vs 2 Bustides, an Ion Tide, and 6 missilesides. It didn't go well for the Tyrant.
I understand that this is a Worst case scenario in many ways. This is part of a Tau TAC list. I really think SkyTyrant is the most interesting formation to come out of Shield of Baal, and will be trying to figure out its viability, but for right now, I'm thinking it is pretty good, but not an answer to our problems. Mainly great against Wraith Knights, and Dread Knights. Has a problem against Imperial Knights.
I'm not sure if Skytyrant makes it into TAC lists, but I think it has probably redefined how I run Raveners.
Your failing a lot of 2+ LOS!, then 2+ Jinks or cover saves of 3+ to 5+. I am wondering it this might be a good candidate for an RC Tyrant, it is already AP2 so you just need the claws for that +1 to rip through the knights. Maybe with AG, for S7 on the charge so you can glance on 5's punch through on 6.
I should have been more specific. All 30 Gargoyles died before the Tyrant. I was keeping the Tyrant near the back. Once the Malanthrope went down, the Gargs started dying pretty quickly. I should have left the Malanthrope in my backfield in ruins for a 2+, and conga lined the gargoyles back, but I tried to move him between pieces of terrain, and didn't get quite there on my run, so he just had a 3+ cover on turn 2, and died to the first burstide when I failed a bunch of saves. My attempt to stay in terrain left me with an 8" turn 2 charge when turned into 11" after overwatch. If I had made the charge, I probably would have killed 1 riptide.
ETA. It was a dumb not representative test. We were just wasting times while waiting for our opponents to finish up a game.
ETA2. My theory hammer leads me to believe a Reaper of Obliterax (+1 Strength) + Rending Claws + Electroshock Grubs is the way to go. 260 points, but it is pretty well protected.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/24 05:02:57
2014/11/24 05:53:34
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Unyielding Hunger wrote: drop pods are out of the question since it it would require 2 pods to carry the unit.
The Tyrant Guards and the Tyrant/Swarmlord can join after disembarking from their pods.
The problem is the price. You will pay an extra 150 points, which is the cost of another full brood of guards for something that is going to come onboard after the start, closer to the enemy. Guards are designed to be an ablative shield. Why bother wasting the point of them by justifying another expenditure. Sure, they will all come in relatively unharmed, but there is the chance that they could not come in together, which leads to problems. Taking out any form of podding justifies guards and saves points. You want to take pods, grab a dakkarant and call it done with a more expensive synaptic dakkafex. When the swarmlord review comes out, that will cover pods for it being an option, but in a tyrant guard review, pods are what you are not after.
"There is a cancer eating at the Imperium. With each decade it advances deeper, leaving drained, dead worlds in its wake. This horror, this abomination, has thought and purpose that functions on an unimaginable, galactic scale and all we can do is try to stop the swarms of bioengineered monsters it unleashes upon us by instinct. We have given the horror a name to salve our fears; we call it the Tyranid race, but if is aware of us at all it must know us only as Prey."
Hive Fleet Grootslang 15000+
Servants of the Void 2000+
2014/11/24 07:10:56
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
That's good thinking Prodigous with the ammo dump.
Barby is definitely InControl's signature model and I like the way he pushes him up the board to threaten assault, making use of his destructive capability and 12" movespeed, and getting full value out of the model. That being said, I think he's still probably worth his points even if you just use him for shooting, especially with ammo dump! I'm going to finish painting up my Barby sometime soon and use him much more often, I think that's two excellent styles of play and I'll have to experiment a lot with both. What do you think best compliments his style of sitting back and forcing the enemy to push up if they want to deal with his massive firepower? I imagine Biovores would compliment him quite well.
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2014/11/24 08:21:04
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Hey Guys, first time posting. I've been reading a lot of posts here and am really enjoying learning more about my Tyranids from all of you. I have a quick question, why does everyone take electroshock grubs on their flyrants? is it to threaten vehicles above av12?
2014/11/24 08:48:13
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Yeah and due to lack of other ways to deal with them even being present anywhere in the army. We are remarkably low on S8+. That being said, eGrubs are less important now, with Dakkafex getting pods, however unless you are running a few of them, it's probably going to be worth the pick up.
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2014/11/24 09:48:45
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Eldercaveman wrote: So just how fragile is a Tyrant from a Skytyrant formation. To me it seems like it could be one of the best ways to get a fourth tyrant into a Leviathan list (only allowing one detachment + formation). But does the T3 kill it?
I did a test scenario. 30 Gargoyles+Reaper Tyrant + Malanthrope vs 2 Bustides, an Ion Tide, and 6 missilesides. It didn't go well for the Tyrant.
I understand that this is a Worst case scenario in many ways. This is part of a Tau TAC list. I really think SkyTyrant is the most interesting formation to come out of Shield of Baal, and will be trying to figure out its viability, but for right now, I'm thinking it is pretty good, but not an answer to our problems. Mainly great against Wraith Knights, and Dread Knights. Has a problem against Imperial Knights.
I'm not sure if Skytyrant makes it into TAC lists, but I think it has probably redefined how I run Raveners.
Your failing a lot of 2+ LOS!, then 2+ Jinks or cover saves of 3+ to 5+. I am wondering it this might be a good candidate for an RC Tyrant, it is already AP2 so you just need the claws for that +1 to rip through the knights. Maybe with AG, for S7 on the charge so you can glance on 5's punch through on 6.
I should have been more specific. All 30 Gargoyles died before the Tyrant. I was keeping the Tyrant near the back. Once the Malanthrope went down, the Gargs started dying pretty quickly. I should have left the Malanthrope in my backfield in ruins for a 2+, and conga lined the gargoyles back, but I tried to move him between pieces of terrain, and didn't get quite there on my run, so he just had a 3+ cover on turn 2, and died to the first burstide when I failed a bunch of saves. My attempt to stay in terrain left me with an 8" turn 2 charge when turned into 11" after overwatch. If I had made the charge, I probably would have killed 1 riptide.
ETA. It was a dumb not representative test. We were just wasting times while waiting for our opponents to finish up a game.
ETA2. My theory hammer leads me to believe a Reaper of Obliterax (+1 Strength) + Rending Claws + Electroshock Grubs is the way to go. 260 points, but it is pretty well protected.
At the same time - it makes me think that the Skytyrant's flock needs to go big or stay home.
I agree it's a place for an assault-based tyrant; not being able to swoop means the only safe place is in your opponent's face, and you don't want to be wasting the damage potential of 20+ gargoyles (which isn't bad, even if it's just fleshborer fire).
I'm personally thinking:
- Adrenal Glands. You've got to close the distance, fast, so Fleet is crucial, even if it is damn expensive to give it to a big Gargoyle flock. Plus, S4 on the charge means the Gargoyles can potentially glance light armour.
- Toxin Sacs. Because poison is a nice thing for disassembling wraithknights and riptides (S7 means reroll to wound on the charge)
- The Maw-Claws. Because they're only 5 points more than rending claws, which give you a nice bit of antiarmour potential - but Preferred Enemy will transfer to the entire flock....
Should do okay at ripping up monsters and medium armour, provided they're not characters. Also, don't underestimate Blinding Venom off the gargoyles...
Been playing around with a concept for a flyer swarm:
I know that a more competitive list would include a venomthrope or malanthrope 'launch pad' for the monstrous creatures, but I'm going for a 'not a foot to touch the earth' approach...
i figure deploy the disposable (i.e. recycling) gargoyle broods to provide the Skytyrant with a save. The flyers.... dunno. Deploy in cover if I can find enough, otherwise keep them in reserve?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/11/24 09:59:23
Termagants expended for the Hive Mind: ~2835
2014/11/24 10:28:54
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
I can't believe there are Shield of Baal books being sold on Ebay for $130+ when even if they are sold out online they are in GW stores all over... tempted to buy and sell. =P
6400 Pts 4300 Pts 3200 Pts 2600 Pts
3080 Pts 30k 2460 Pts AoS Chaos Grand Alliance
2680 Pts AoS Sylvaneth
2014/11/24 13:10:31
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Noctem wrote: I can't believe there are Shield of Baal books being sold on Ebay for $130+ when even if they are sold out online they are in GW stores all over... tempted to buy and sell. =P
Quite simply, people could buy two online. Then log out and buy two more. Repeat for many books - and much profit. I was lucky I'm quite good friends with the GW employee, they was able to hide a copy for me - very handy when there were only two copies in store for people (mine included).
YMDC = nightmare
2014/11/24 13:12:47
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Noctem wrote: I can't believe there are Shield of Baal books being sold on Ebay for $130+ when even if they are sold out online they are in GW stores all over... tempted to buy and sell. =P
Noctem wrote: I can't believe there are Shield of Baal books being sold on Ebay for $130+ when even if they are sold out online they are in GW stores all over... tempted to buy and sell. =P
I tried 3 local shops and tried to preorder it at 2 online ones on the day it was available for pre-order; no-one had the hardcover book or could pre-order. The local shops didn't even get any at all. So thanks to some greedy gits having to resell it for stupidly high prices, I guess I'll have to settle for a softcover instead.
Quick question: If I make my Skytyrant my warlord and purchase Fighter Ace, am I allowed to keep my warlord 12" away from the table edge and take all my gargoyles into Ongoing? From the wording of the Fighter Ace table, it seems legit. Hmm...
Always looking for those loopholes xD
2014/11/24 15:14:49
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Saythings wrote: Quick question: If I make my Skytyrant my warlord and purchase Fighter Ace, am I allowed to keep my warlord 12" away from the table edge and take all my gargoyles into Ongoing? From the wording of the Fighter Ace table, it seems legit. Hmm...
Always looking for those loopholes xD
I'd say no - and here is why: The fighter ace upgrade is for a model, not unit. The skytyrant model has the permission (permissive ruleset) to leave the table under a specific set of circumstances. The unit he is with does not. As such, without specific permission for him to leave the unit (permissive ruleset) or the unit to leave the table along with him (which they do not have), the skytyrant could not make use of the "sudden escape" ability until such time as all the gargoyles in the unit were no longer alive and part of that unit.
Been out of the game for awhile, trying to find time to get back into it.
2014/11/24 15:17:02
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
That was my first thought, but A.G. on Gargoyles is so expensive for a unit that is going to have a high target priority and be hemorrhaging gargoyles quickly.
2014/11/24 15:22:36
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
That was my first thought, but A.G. on Gargoyles is so expensive for a unit that is going to have a high target priority and be hemorrhaging gargoyles quickly.
Agreed. Keep them cheap and move up as quickly as possible, if need be move 6" in the movement phase to get a re-roll on assault distance (and HoW on the gargoyles).
Been out of the game for awhile, trying to find time to get back into it.
2014/11/24 15:23:57
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Saythings wrote: Quick question: If I make my Skytyrant my warlord and purchase Fighter Ace, am I allowed to keep my warlord 12" away from the table edge and take all my gargoyles into Ongoing? From the wording of the Fighter Ace table, it seems legit. Hmm...
Always looking for those loopholes xD
I'd say no - and here is why: The fighter ace upgrade is for a model, not unit. The skytyrant model has the permission (permissive ruleset) to leave the table under a specific set of circumstances. The unit he is with does not. As such, without specific permission for him to leave the unit (permissive ruleset) or the unit to leave the table along with him (which they do not have), the skytyrant could not make use of the "sudden escape" ability until such time as all the gargoyles in the unit were no longer alive and part of that unit.
Agreed.
It's like a unit of terminators with a non-terminator Space Marine captain in it. Because the captain cannot deepstrike, then the whole unit cannot deepstrike as well. And even though the captain can do a Sweeping Advance in close combat, but the unit can't because there are models in it that can't.
Noctem wrote: I can't believe there are Shield of Baal books being sold on Ebay for $130+ when even if they are sold out online they are in GW stores all over... tempted to buy and sell. =P
My friend who runs a gaming store told me that GW is out of stock themselves. That's probably why it is being sold on ebay for a premium. When your store runs out, it'll probably be a while before it can get more in.
jifel wrote: Has no one signed up for Ripper swarms yet? I'm surprised they're still open, but I'll write them if they are.
Ok, it's all yours.
Rotaxus wrote: Hey Guys, first time posting. I've been reading a lot of posts here and am really enjoying learning more about my Tyranids from all of you. I have a quick question, why does everyone take electroshock grubs on their flyrants? is it to threaten vehicles above av12?
Yes, and also to deal with Imperial Knights. We don't have much that can deal with those knights.
At the same time - it makes me think that the Skytyrant's flock needs to go big or stay home.
I agree it's a place for an assault-based tyrant; not being able to swoop means the only safe place is in your opponent's face, and you don't want to be wasting the damage potential of 20+ gargoyles (which isn't bad, even if it's just fleshborer fire).
I'm personally thinking:
- Adrenal Glands. You've got to close the distance, fast, so Fleet is crucial, even if it is damn expensive to give it to a big Gargoyle flock. Plus, S4 on the charge means the Gargoyles can potentially glance light armour.
- Toxin Sacs. Because poison is a nice thing for disassembling wraithknights and riptides (S7 means reroll to wound on the charge)
- The Maw-Claws. Because they're only 5 points more than rending claws, which give you a nice bit of antiarmour potential - but Preferred Enemy will transfer to the entire flock....
Should do okay at ripping up monsters and medium armour, provided they're not characters. Also, don't underestimate Blinding Venom off the gargoyles...
Been playing around with a concept for a flyer swarm:
I know that a more competitive list would include a venomthrope or malanthrope 'launch pad' for the monstrous creatures, but I'm going for a 'not a foot to touch the earth' approach...
i figure deploy the disposable (i.e. recycling) gargoyle broods to provide the Skytyrant with a save. The flyers.... dunno. Deploy in cover if I can find enough, otherwise keep them in reserve?
Personally, I wouldn't give the gargoyles any upgrades at all. Just keep them cheap and as expendable wounds. Spend the extra points on the rest of the army.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/11/24 15:34:02
So is Regenerate a valid option for a SkyTyrant? Keep him at the front to jink/LoS wounds away, and if he loses a couple wounds move him back to regenerate. The bodies of the gargoyles will keep him protected until he!'a back up to full, which he can then move back up to tank more wounds.
I get the keep 'em cheap mindset - after all, adrenal glands are 1/3 the price of another bug. I was just concerned about an assaulty unit without fleet...
On the other hand, that alone gives me 15 more gargoyles, either in the tyrant's screen or in the skyblight units - I can see 15 man broods being a damn sight nore useful.
Alternatively, I could take a fighter ace upgrade, But not sure how much use it would be...
Termagants expended for the Hive Mind: ~2835
2014/11/24 17:12:25
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Sinful Hero wrote: So is Regenerate a valid option for a SkyTyrant? Keep him at the front to jink/LoS wounds away, and if he loses a couple wounds move him back to regenerate. The bodies of the gargoyles will keep him protected until he!'a back up to full, which he can then move back up to tank more wounds.
My brain and heart disagree on this. I am actually leaning toward yes, because you can keep the flyrant out front and Jink for a 2+, and aren't losing any gargoyles for a few turns.
However, once you are in assault, Something is either going to kill the tyrant or die to it. You aren't often going to take 1 wound and survive.
Regen bumps a Tyrant up to 290 points (Tyrant with Wings, Reaper of Obliterax, Rending Claws, E.grubs, Regen) . I just don't know if it is worth 290 points. It can basically end anything with a toughness value that doesn't have EW, and with Regen becomes an amazingly durable unit so long as you aren't facing ignore cover. It might Kill 1 Knight, but wouldn't survive 2 of them, and GW's rules writing have ensured that 3 Knights are everywhere these days. It can pop a Wave serpent a turn, but struggles with a Deff Dread. I'm having a rougher time figuring out where this formation fits into list than any other Tyranid formation.
2014/11/24 17:47:13
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Eldercaveman wrote: So just how fragile is a Tyrant from a Skytyrant formation. To me it seems like it could be one of the best ways to get a fourth tyrant into a Leviathan list (only allowing one detachment + formation). But does the T3 kill it?
I did a test scenario. 30 Gargoyles+Reaper Tyrant + Malanthrope vs 2 Bustides, an Ion Tide, and 6 missilesides. It didn't go well for the Tyrant.
I understand that this is a Worst case scenario in many ways. This is part of a Tau TAC list. I really think SkyTyrant is the most interesting formation to come out of Shield of Baal, and will be trying to figure out its viability, but for right now, I'm thinking it is pretty good, but not an answer to our problems. Mainly great against Wraith Knights, and Dread Knights. Has a problem against Imperial Knights.
I'm not sure if Skytyrant makes it into TAC lists, but I think it has probably redefined how I run Raveners.
Your failing a lot of 2+ LOS!, then 2+ Jinks or cover saves of 3+ to 5+. I am wondering it this might be a good candidate for an RC Tyrant, it is already AP2 so you just need the claws for that +1 to rip through the knights. Maybe with AG, for S7 on the charge so you can glance on 5's punch through on 6.
I should have been more specific. All 30 Gargoyles died before the Tyrant. I was keeping the Tyrant near the back. Once the Malanthrope went down, the Gargs started dying pretty quickly. I should have left the Malanthrope in my backfield in ruins for a 2+, and conga lined the gargoyles back, but I tried to move him between pieces of terrain, and didn't get quite there on my run, so he just had a 3+ cover on turn 2, and died to the first burstide when I failed a bunch of saves. My attempt to stay in terrain left me with an 8" turn 2 charge when turned into 11" after overwatch. If I had made the charge, I probably would have killed 1 riptide.
ETA. It was a dumb not representative test. We were just wasting times while waiting for our opponents to finish up a game.
ETA2. My theory hammer leads me to believe a Reaper of Obliterax (+1 Strength) + Rending Claws + Electroshock Grubs is the way to go. 260 points, but it is pretty well protected.
At the same time - it makes me think that the Skytyrant's flock needs to go big or stay home. I agree it's a place for an assault-based tyrant; not being able to swoop means the only safe place is in your opponent's face, and you don't want to be wasting the damage potential of 20+ gargoyles (which isn't bad, even if it's just fleshborer fire).
I'm personally thinking: - Adrenal Glands. You've got to close the distance, fast, so Fleet is crucial, even if it is damn expensive to give it to a big Gargoyle flock. Plus, S4 on the charge means the Gargoyles can potentially glance light armour. - Toxin Sacs. Because poison is a nice thing for disassembling wraithknights and riptides (S7 means reroll to wound on the charge) - The Maw-Claws. Because they're only 5 points more than rending claws, which give you a nice bit of antiarmour potential - but Preferred Enemy will transfer to the entire flock....
Should do okay at ripping up monsters and medium armour, provided they're not characters. Also, don't underestimate Blinding Venom off the gargoyles...
Been playing around with a concept for a flyer swarm:
I know that a more competitive list would include a venomthrope or malanthrope 'launch pad' for the monstrous creatures, but I'm going for a 'not a foot to touch the earth' approach... i figure deploy the disposable (i.e. recycling) gargoyle broods to provide the Skytyrant with a save. The flyers.... dunno. Deploy in cover if I can find enough, otherwise keep them in reserve?
Looks pretty cool. But I'd want to spend extra on Glands for the recycling Gargoyles...if they can come back, the cost is easier to justify. ( most likely you should save the points though)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/24 17:54:03
The will of the hive is always the same: HUNGER
2014/11/24 20:43:10
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Here's 40k Brawls latest rep making use of the Tyrannocytes, leviathan detatchment and fighter ace upgrade vs serpant spam.
Please enjoy!
Spoiler:
Interesting. Tyrants demolished the serpents. It ran counter to my experience, so I tracked it a bit.
Shooting Devourers at a front or side of a serpent should do 1.78 hull points, but with holo fields they jink 2/3 of those away for a net of 0.59 Hull points. If they do E.Grubs rather than 1 Devourer that goes up to 1.13 hull points.
Turn 1, 2 Tyrants, Kill a serpent with Devourers. Should have done 1.19 Hull points. Another Tyrant does nothing should have done 0.59 Hull points. Expected: 1.78 Actual 3. Turn 2, 2 Tyrants kill a serpent (in range of E.grubs). Should have done 2.26 Hull points. Also, the Tyrannocyte shot at dire avengers instead of a Serpent which was closer. Expected: 4.04 Actual 6. Turn 3, 1 Tyrant kills a serpent (in range of E.grubs), Should have done 1.13 Hull points. Crone + Tyrant (in range of E.Grubs) kill a Wave serpent, should have done 1.63 hull points. Expected: 6.79 Actual 9. Turn 4, 1 Tyrant fails to hurt a serpent should have done 0.59. Expected: 7.38 Actual 9. Turn 5, 1 Tyrant (in range of E.Grubs) does 2 hullpoints. Should have done 1.13. Expected: 8.52 Actual 11.
Basically the tyrants got pretty lucky, but only 23% above average. It just seemed flashy.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/24 21:11:56
Hive Fleet Grootslang 
.....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals
(building)
(less)
But I'd want to spend extra on Glands for the recycling Gargoyles...if they can come back, the cost is easier to justify. 
( most likely you should save the points though)