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2014/11/23 17:31:27
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
I have to admit, I really like the Shield of Baal e-book. Some cool/fun/interesting rules, fun fluff.
Now please can you poke holes, critique or just comment on what was originally going to be a fairly simple triple flyrant dual CAD list;
CAD:
Flyrant, Devs, Egrubs (Warlord - go go re-roll on strategic) 2x Rippers, DS 1x Lictor
1x Malanthrope
All of this for 1500pts. I guess it could be light on gross total scoring bodies but so far that would be my only concern. Lots of options. Fun? Competitive? Also trying to make best use of the command benefits whilst still getting my re-roll for book traits.
*HFD = Hive Fleet Detachment
For a 1500-pt army, that is a damn good list. I wouldn't use it in friendly, casual games. That is more of a tournament list.
One thing to note. You won't be able to use that list in most tournaments (at least not here in the US) due to most tournaments having a 2-detachment maximum. However, I am not sure what the meta is like on the other side of the pond.
Verviedi wrote: Which formation is best against GK PaladinStar?
LAN, Skyblight, or Other?
I'd take Skyblight or the Hive Fleet Leviathan detachment.
Iechine wrote: This is my cut throat, refined down no nonsense tournament list. I have to order a Dimachaeron which is no big deal as I need another to paint and sell, and I have to figure out (like everyone else) what to do for the Mucolid situation.
Critique appreciated.
1850pts
Flyrant w/Devs and Electro
Flyrant w/Devs and Electro
Ripper w/DS Ripper
Venomthrope
Dimachaeron w/Tyrannocyte
11 Gargoyles
Mawloc
Mawloc
Leviathan:
Flyrant w/Devs and Electro
Flyrant w/Devs and Electro
Mucolid
Mucolid
Mucolid
Bastion w/Comms
The Gargoyles will have to really take the 2" spacing to the max to do their job. The bigass bastion helps alleviate the screening issue some.
Turn two is really rough on the opponent. Four flyrants speaks for itself, but the Mawlocs and Dima cannot be ignored. The Mucolids will arrive in threatening positions all around.
Solid.
This is the type of list I would run. Quad-flyrants is very strong but not too unbalancing. Then the rest of the army is support MSU. Very nice list.
Drop 1 gargoyle and give your rippers deepstrike. You won't lose much by dropping a gargoyle, but you gain a lot more flexibility when you give your rippers the option to deepstrike.
felixcat wrote: So with Hive Fleet Leviathan I can comfortably field 4 Flyrants and 4 Mawlocs now ...
I can pound from the air and the ground. Whether or not this is compwetitive remains to be seen but an eight MC list will not be easy to play against.
That list is downright scary, but you need more lictors to make it work. Also, the number of mawlocs you have there is overkill. 2 is a good number. I would never take more than 3 maximum. I'd drop the 4th mawloc for 1-2 more lictors and other support units (like a malanthrope or venomthrope).
Noctem wrote: What do you guys think about this list? I don't face any alpha strike lists.
Mawloc
Mawloc
Carnifex w/ BLDevs with Tyrannocyte w/ Venoms
Bastion w/ Comms Relay
Comes out to 1843 so 7 points under right now. I know it's only got the Venomthrope and two Flyrants on the table on turn 1, but I feel like with the right placement I'd be ok.
Thoughts?
It's solid.
As a matter of fact, compared to some of the other lists here, it's actually much friendlier. Still, I wouldn't want to be your opponent come Turn 2!
Wilson wrote: Triple Flyrant
Mucolid
Mucolid
Mucolid
Adlance formation
1845...
Video batrep coming this week!
Oh gosh. Disgusting.
Adlance knights is one of our greatest foes, but now you want to include them into your army? I feel bad for your opponent.
Razerous wrote: What are people's opinions on the sporefield formation?
It's good and cheap. However, in US tournament play, you'd have to give up on the Hive Fleet Leviathan formation, Skyblight or even self-allies. It's good but not that good....
Iechine wrote: Essentially, now that we have turn 2 deep strike focus, you can either fish for the Warlord trait, get a bastion w/comms, or go with Swarmlord.
So looking at it that way, Swarmlord is no long an overcosted pig, but a 195pt death dealer with heavier psychic and buffs, he just has the comms relay ability sort of built in. Drop in in a Tyrannocyte and you have sort of the same effect as a Dima, he's still billy badass to an extent but with frightening close combat potential.
I think a list like this would cater to use of the Swarmlord, and I'd definitely practice a few games with it.
Leviathan:
Flyrant w/Devourers and electro
Flyrant w/Devourers and electro
Flyrant w/Devourers and electro
Mucolid
Mucolid
Mucolid
You can still use Mawlocs instead of the expensive Tervigon if you like, but a drop podded Swarmlord and Tervigon are quite the threat factor for a lot of lists and they synergize well.
Theres no great reason to have a walking Swarmlord though. I get that he can get great cover saves but we can all raise our hands Im sure if I ask who has lost a Tyrant with 2+ cover saves turn 1 before.
I like your other more well-rounded list better.
Solidcrash wrote: Just wonder if this list are unbeatable? Combin arms detachment.
Without Number
Swarmlord ( ensure every deep strike unit arrive in turn two.)
Iechine wrote: This is my cut throat, refined down no nonsense tournament list. I have to order a Dimachaeron which is no big deal as I need another to paint and sell, and I have to figure out (like everyone else) what to do for the Mucolid situation.
Critique appreciated.
1850pts
Flyrant w/Devs and Electro
Flyrant w/Devs and Electro
Ripper w/DS Ripper
Venomthrope
Dimachaeron w/Tyrannocyte
11 Gargoyles
Mawloc
Mawloc
Leviathan:
Flyrant w/Devs and Electro
Flyrant w/Devs and Electro
Mucolid
Mucolid
Mucolid
Bastion w/Comms
The Gargoyles will have to really take the 2" spacing to the max to do their job. The bigass bastion helps alleviate the screening issue some.
Turn two is really rough on the opponent. Four flyrants speaks for itself, but the Mawlocs and Dima cannot be ignored. The Mucolids will arrive in threatening positions all around.
Definitely like the list. It's very similar to what I would bring to a tournament. The only critique that I have is I would caution against putting the Venomthrope inside the bastion. Not that you need synapse around the bastion, but without synapse, the Venomthrope can still own itself by failing an IB test. Now, you can mitigate that somewhat by just putting him into the leviathan detachment so that you get a re-roll, but in the event that you can't overcome that, the Venomthrope will leave the bastion if he get the fall back result. Although he is fearless inside the bastion, it says that the unit "is treated AS IF it had failed morale and must fall back" so sadly the part where the Venomthrope never needs to take the check is skipped over and he will hop out of the bastion and then eventually run off the board unless you get lucky/have other backfield synapse. Not too ideal if you ask me. As such, I always prefer the Malanthrope inside the box. I'm basically experimenting with different combos of 3-4 Flyrants, 1-2 Dimachaerons and 1-2 Mawlocs. Going against an alpha strike army like drop pod marines is rough because they can typically down a Flyrant even through 2+ cover, and of course if you don't bubble wrap, the bastion is toast. My advice would be to try a list concept that concedes first blood against an army like that. For example, if you use your Mucolids to bubble wrap, they may very well waste some shots on it in an attempt to get first blood, and Mucolids can easily screen your bastion if you don't care whether or not the have 2+ cover. They should be looking at 4+ at worst (3+ with night fighting) but if it gets to that, they've already done their job. I would much rather give up first blood and a Mucolid than 2-3 wounds off of my Flyrant (or having my bastion exploded on turn 1, especially because the Makanthrope is likely then toast also)
2014/11/23 17:35:45
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Sinful Hero wrote: I can understand using a Swarmlord over a 4th Flyrant in that list.
•Catalyst on the Hierodule when needed
•+1 Warpcharge over another Flyrant
•Preferred Enemy buff
•Assault deterrent
•Cover Save for the Barbie in a pinch
•+1 Reserves(Would be especially useful if going second and reserved your Flyrants)
•18" Synapse to help keep things under control/Fearless at farther distance from the Hierodule
A 4th Flyrant isn't that good at babysitting, needing to move a minimum distance to keep swooping- The Hierodule may not want to move a certain distance to keep in/out of line of sight or cover. The Swarmlord can baby-sit and buff both, while keeping better pace with the Hierodule. A Flyrant can do some of the same things, but not all of them which is why you go for the Swarmlord.
Don't forget he can give himself Furious Charge, thus making Swarmy better against vehicles and tough units like wraithknights and other MC's.
But this is where Swarmy differs from the Flyrant substantially (see below). And I am not talking about surface things like stats or unit special rules. Rather, it is the little things that end up making the difference at the end of the game.
1. Flyrants are contributing directly to the offense each and every turn. Swarmy, not probably until Turn 3 at the earliest.
2. Swarmy can be ignored (like I did in our game). The flyrants, you can't.
3. I have the tendency to go after my opponent's support units - hiding troops, mobile units, etc. - and have won so many games this way, including against matchups that are typically bad for me. Swarmlord cannot do this. Flyrants can.
4. Flexibility. With flyrants, you have much more flexibility in terms of how you want to approach the game as well as how you can deal with different enemy army builds. They let me play a true "Water-warrior" style of play (a "water" army is one that is highly reactive and highly flexible). The Swarmlord, while a better pure force-multiplier, takes away some of this flexibility.
Well, it's the least I can do. To be honest, I haven't played a true game in more than a year. Most of what I have been playing now have been little 1k and under skirmishes, so I guess you could say these have been my way to atone for the countless rookie mistakes and questions I used to ask you guys, and show I do know how to actually run with the big boys again. Still, I was a bit surprised when I did the math on my defensive spore mine deployments. You realize they have a 30-40" maximum threat range in that set up?
2014/11/23 17:53:55
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Just wondering, can they take a drop pod? Battle scribe lists it as an option, but that can't be right can it... I don't know that it would make them much better,but I do know it doesn't make much sense thematically lol
I would think not, and any TO/tournament that lets you do so should be strung up.
SHUPPET wrote: I might be missing something about the Swarmlord that might make it a lot better than I think it is - I've seen this mention of him getting a 2+ save from the Malanthrope twice now - how is this? If this is the case I think I might have to change my opinion, that makes a big difference from 3+.
In my game, there was a piece of ruins in the center of the table (as well as in our deployment zones). In other words, there was plenty of ruins for cover. Swarmy + malanthrope + 5W + Catalyst + ruins = pretty damn resilient. That's 5W, 2+ cover, 4++ in close-combat and FNP!
But none of that mattered as I was too busy trying to shoot down his flyrants to care about Swarmy. Let him assault my Mindshackle lords if he wants.
Solidcrash wrote: Is there Without Number formations? I didn't know there are!
I just naming this list "without number" from old Tyranids codex. Heh.
Oh, ok.
My bad then.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/11/23 18:02:29
So just how fragile is a Tyrant from a Skytyrant formation. To me it seems like it could be one of the best ways to get a fourth tyrant into a Leviathan list (only allowing one detachment + formation). But does the T3 kill it?
Would a reaper tyrant be a good option as a third to go monster hunting?
Hi guys. Long time lurker here on Dakkadakka. Have been playing nids since end of 5th ed. And have not liked how the nids was bound to a couple of set builds to be somewhat competative.
I was about to change army putting my Nids aside for a while and try to play something that was more then pushing alot of MC:s across the table (maybe fun the first 50-100 games). But it has been a bit off a
monotonous playstyle. And then the saving grace came. The tyrannocyte which then light a new fire for me about playing nids. To have some more good choices to build your army.
Played a game today inspired by the last BAO winner Ordoseans list.
The list i played was a double CAD with:
Flyrant
Flyrant
Lictor
Lictor
Lictor
5 Genestealers
5 Genestealers
3 Sporemines
3 Sporemines
Dakkafex in Pod
Mawloc
Deathleaper
Lictor
Lictor
Lictor
5 Genestealers
5 Genestealers
3 Sporemines
3 Sporemines
3 Sporemines
Dakkafex in Pod
Mawloc
Turn 1 ends 2-2
Turn 2 ends 5-2
Turn 3 ends 10-2 (We call it a game)
Must say i was mighty impressed about the lictors with their flexibility.
2014/11/23 19:04:04
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Just a little note. The list of things that can kill a Barbed Heirodule in shooting is pretty damn small. Farsight Bomb kill him in the turn they arrive. Centstar with ignore cover can kill him easily.
But many things can kill him in assault. I've probably lost my Barbed Heirodule 20 times at this point, and 17 of those were in assault. Mephiston can punk him pretty easily. TH+SS Terminators or TWC can kill him dead. Grey Knight force weapons take care of him. Dreadnoughts are a Threat. Knights kill him dead. Stompas make him look like a wuss. I've even lost him to Ork Power Klaws.
One tactic to keep him alive is to remember the challenge ability of the Malanthrope. If you can stall the Characters with the big assault profile, Barbie can take care of business.
I am not sold on the tactic of "Barbed Heirodule bodyguard", because the list of things that can kill Barbie in assault, but can't do the same to Swarmlord or a Dimacharon is pretty small. If your meta is limited enough that assault deathstars can't deal with a Swarmlord or Dimacharon, then a bodyguard might work well. But I think in most cases an Exocrine, or Dakkafex can contribute more throughout the game than a dedicated assault unit that hides in the backfield, and can also serve as a body guard for Barbie in a pinch. Also to run Barbie, you want that Malanthrope there, and he can eat challenges and take a few wounds.
Preferred Enemy is a good buff for Barbie. I've found that an Ammo dump serves a similar purpose, and does so for cheap. Also Aegis + Ammo dump gives you 2+ cover anywhere on the board if the store / Opponent don't cooperate with terrain. Bonus against knights because it forces them to "Charge through Cover" and get to you at initiative 1. The biggest problem is that you can't take both an Ammo Dump and a Comms relay or quad gun.
2014/11/23 19:13:21
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Eldercaveman wrote: So just how fragile is a Tyrant from a Skytyrant formation. To me it seems like it could be one of the best ways to get a fourth tyrant into a Leviathan list (only allowing one detachment + formation). But does the T3 kill it?
Would a reaper tyrant be a good option as a third to go monster hunting?
I played two games with Skytyrant Primary / Hive Fleet Detachment. (As far as I could tell, you can make any Character your warlord - in doing so, that Detachment with the elected warlord becomes your primary).
I found it incredibly durable. The T3 sucks but think of him at a Flyrant with 46 wounds (I had 42 gargs in the single unit (2 broods)). He can LOS on a 2+ and he usually sits in the middle of the gargs. With simply positioning, the gargs provides all of my other 3 flyrants with 5+ cover most of the game until they found ruins for cover saves of their own. Jinking was only necessary if I felt the extra +1 to cover (from a 5+ to a 4+) was ideal (vendettas, etc). Skytyrant formation is going to be one of the best formations out there. Guarantee it. Time will tell!
Edit:
The Warlord - When choosing your army, you must nominate one model to be your Warlord. Unless specified otherwise, this must be a character model. If you do not have any character models in your army, then select any other model in your army to be the Warlord. The mpdel you choose as your Warlord also determines your Primary Detachment." -BRB, under "Choosing your army"
Skytyrant Swarm - Special Rules: The Hive Tyrant and Gargoyles in this Formation are a single unit. The Hive Tyrant can use the Look Out, Sir rule to attempt to re-allocate any Wound that it suffers onto a Gargoyle model from the unit, and will pass Look Out, Sir rolls on a 2+. The Hive Tyrant cannot leave the unit during the battle, and can only use the Gliding flight mode. The combined unit counts as 3 units for Victory Points purposes if it is completely destroyed.
After reading that a few times, the single model is your warlord, and the rule about Victory Points may only be for Kill Point mission types. Let me know what you guys think.
That being said, it's hard to kill the Skytyrant with 40+ models attached to it, all with fearless. (Out of the 2 games I played with it, my warlord only took a single wound)
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/11/23 19:36:08
2014/11/23 19:21:49
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Eldercaveman wrote: So just how fragile is a Tyrant from a Skytyrant formation. To me it seems like it could be one of the best ways to get a fourth tyrant into a Leviathan list (only allowing one detachment + formation). But does the T3 kill it?
I did a test scenario. 30 Gargoyles+Reaper Tyrant + Malanthrope vs 2 Bustides, an Ion Tide, and 6 missilesides. It didn't go well for the Tyrant.
I understand that this is a Worst case scenario in many ways. This is part of a Tau TAC list. I really think SkyTyrant is the most interesting formation to come out of Shield of Baal, and will be trying to figure out its viability, but for right now, I'm thinking it is pretty good, but not an answer to our problems. Mainly great against Wraith Knights, and Dread Knights. Has a problem against Imperial Knights.
I'm not sure if Skytyrant makes it into TAC lists, but I think it has probably redefined how I run Raveners.
2014/11/23 19:25:50
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Eldercaveman wrote: So just how fragile is a Tyrant from a Skytyrant formation. To me it seems like it could be one of the best ways to get a fourth tyrant into a Leviathan list (only allowing one detachment + formation). But does the T3 kill it?
Would a reaper tyrant be a good option as a third to go monster hunting?
I played two games with Skytyrant Primary / Hive Fleet Detachment. (As far as I could tell, you can make any Character your warlord - in doing so, that Detachment with the elected warlord becomes your primary).
I found it incredibly durable. The T3 sucks but think of him at a Flyrant with 46 wounds (I had 42 gargs in the single unit (2 broods)). He can LOS on a 2+ and he usually sits in the middle of the gargs. With simply positioning, the gargs provides all of my other 3 flyrants with 5+ cover most of the game until they found ruins for cover saves of their own. Jinking was only necessary if I felt the extra +1 to cover (from a 5+ to a 4+) was ideal (vendettas, etc). Skytyrant formation is going to be one of the best formations out there. Guarantee it.
On a further note, if the Skytyrant CAN be a warlord - The enemy not only has to kill the tyrant and EVERY last garg to get all 3 kill points, but need to kill every model in the squad to achieve "Slay the Warlord".
No - the warlord is a single model, not the unit he's in. Once the sky tyrant dies, the enemy gets StW.
Eldercaveman wrote: So just how fragile is a Tyrant from a Skytyrant formation. To me it seems like it could be one of the best ways to get a fourth tyrant into a Leviathan list (only allowing one detachment + formation). But does the T3 kill it?
I did a test scenario. 30 Gargoyles+Reaper Tyrant + Malanthrope vs 2 Bustides, an Ion Tide, and 6 missilesides. It didn't go well for the Tyrant.
I understand that this is a Worst case scenario in many ways. This is part of a Tau TAC list. I really think SkyTyrant is the most interesting formation to come out of Shield of Baal, and will be trying to figure out its viability, but for right now, I'm thinking it is pretty good, but not an answer to our problems. Mainly great against Wraith Knights, and Dread Knights. Has a problem against Imperial Knights.
I'm not sure if Skytyrant makes it into TAC lists, but I think it has probably redefined how I run Raveners.
What was the points difference on that? Seems the tau side of your matchup outweighed the nids by a third or more.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/23 19:27:23
Been out of the game for awhile, trying to find time to get back into it.
2014/11/23 19:28:01
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Sinful Hero wrote: I can understand using a Swarmlord over a 4th Flyrant in that list.
•Catalyst on the Hierodule when needed
I think he has FNP already from being a GC.
SHUPPET wrote: I might be missing something about the Swarmlord that might make it a lot better than I think it is - I've seen this mention of him getting a 2+ save from the Malanthrope twice now - how is this? If this is the case I think I might have to change my opinion, that makes a big difference from 3+.
From ruins which grant a 4+ even if your base is just touching them, they're also generally the most common terrain. Add the Malanthrope's Shrouded and you've got your 2+
2014/11/23 19:38:57
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
jy2 wrote:
This is the type of list I would run. Quad-flyrants is very strong but not too unbalancing. Then the rest of the army is support MSU. Very nice list.
Drop 1 gargoyle and give your rippers deepstrike. You won't lose much by dropping a gargoyle, but you gain a lot more flexibility when you give your rippers the option to deepstrike.
Cool deal, I'm excited to run it. A lot's changed since October thats for sure, I thought my quad Flyrant list was very strong back then. Now the drop pods/mucolids and leviathan have really
given us a chance to shine.
luke1705 wrote:
Iechine wrote: This is my cut throat, refined down no nonsense tournament list. I have to order a Dimachaeron which is no big deal as I need another to paint and sell, and I have to figure out (like everyone else) what to do for the Mucolid situation.
Critique appreciated.
1850pts
Flyrant w/Devs and Electro
Flyrant w/Devs and Electro
Ripper w/DS Ripper
Venomthrope
Dimachaeron w/Tyrannocyte
11 Gargoyles
Mawloc
Mawloc
Leviathan:
Flyrant w/Devs and Electro
Flyrant w/Devs and Electro
Mucolid
Mucolid
Mucolid
Bastion w/Comms
The Gargoyles will have to really take the 2" spacing to the max to do their job. The bigass bastion helps alleviate the screening issue some.
Turn two is really rough on the opponent. Four flyrants speaks for itself, but the Mawlocs and Dima cannot be ignored. The Mucolids will arrive in threatening positions all around.
Definitely like the list. It's very similar to what I would bring to a tournament. The only critique that I have is I would caution against putting the Venomthrope inside the bastion. Not that you need synapse around the bastion, but without synapse, the Venomthrope can still own itself by failing an IB test. Now, you can mitigate that somewhat by just putting him into the leviathan detachment so that you get a re-roll, but in the event that you can't overcome that, the Venomthrope will leave the bastion if he get the fall back result. Although he is fearless inside the bastion, it says that the unit "is treated AS IF it had failed morale and must fall back" so sadly the part where the Venomthrope never needs to take the check is skipped over and he will hop out of the bastion and then eventually run off the board unless you get lucky/have other backfield synapse. Not too ideal if you ask me. As such, I always prefer the Malanthrope inside the box. I'm basically experimenting with different combos of 3-4 Flyrants, 1-2 Dimachaerons and 1-2 Mawlocs. Going against an alpha strike army like drop pod marines is rough because they can typically down a Flyrant even through 2+ cover, and of course if you don't bubble wrap, the bastion is toast. My advice would be to try a list concept that concedes first blood against an army like that. For example, if you use your Mucolids to bubble wrap, they may very well waste some shots on it in an attempt to get first blood, and Mucolids can easily screen your bastion if you don't care whether or not the have 2+ cover. They should be looking at 4+ at worst (3+ with night fighting) but if it gets to that, they've already done their job. I would much rather give up first blood and a Mucolid than 2-3 wounds off of my Flyrant (or having my bastion exploded on turn 1, especially because the Makanthrope is likely then toast also)
I can say that I wouldnt leave him behind in the box, I'd try to keep him moving forward and I think its important to cast Dominion first turn to grab the stragglers. I'm honestly not sure how Ill play the Mucolids, but most likely DS'ing them unless I am up against a drop pod army.
Eldercaveman wrote: So just how fragile is a Tyrant from a Skytyrant formation. To me it seems like it could be one of the best ways to get a fourth tyrant into a Leviathan list (only allowing one detachment + formation). But does the T3 kill it?
I did a test scenario. 30 Gargoyles+Reaper Tyrant + Malanthrope vs 2 Bustides, an Ion Tide, and 6 missilesides. It didn't go well for the Tyrant.
I understand that this is a Worst case scenario in many ways. This is part of a Tau TAC list. I really think SkyTyrant is the most interesting formation to come out of Shield of Baal, and will be trying to figure out its viability, but for right now, I'm thinking it is pretty good, but not an answer to our problems. Mainly great against Wraith Knights, and Dread Knights. Has a problem against Imperial Knights.
I'm not sure if Skytyrant makes it into TAC lists, but I think it has probably redefined how I run Raveners.
In the test run, was there any terrain (LOS), did the nids players able to cast Catalyst on the entire unit before hand, and what was the other 1000+ points of the nids army doing? The test can't be done in a vaccum. I'd love for entire Tau army to shoot at 40+ gargoyles instead of the other 3 flyrants and Zoans/etc. Maybe you didn't have enough Gargoyles, 20 is not enough to protect the flyrant on the ground. You need enough to bubble out the drop pod rapid fire range, otherwise the formation is just as useful as 1 flyrant and 2 broods of gargoyles.
I only played 2 games with the formation, but I haven't even been close to losing my warlord - IG/Knight list and Farsight list with Broadsides and Riptides. With 2 catalysts on your list, you can give FNP to 4 flyrants and 42 (how much I had). The only thing that didn't FNP was my Zoanthropes and Hive guard (as well as their pods).
2014/11/23 19:43:19
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Mawloc Background The Mawloc first arrived on the scene in 5th edition, along with it's serpent brother, the Trygon. Mawlocs were initially overlooked in favour of the beast that the Trygon was, with many people wishing they had taken a Trygon over a Mawloc. Come 6th edition, that argument was flipped the other way around, with the Trygon being nerfed near to the point of unusable and the Mawloc now being taken as a single disruption unit or even in multiples, depending on the rest of the army. Come 7th edition, the Mawloc suffered a slight nerf in the form of Smash being nerfed, but otherwise remained the same, doing the same job that it did before.
Competitive use The Mawloc is a peculiar unit that Tyranids have available to them, it can do damage before even showing up on the board! Let's have a look at some of the benefits of including a Mawloc in a Tyranid army.
1. Terror from the Deep. This gives the Mawloc a S6 AP2 Large Blast with Ignores Cover when it arrives from Deep Strike. This makes the Mawloc a good answer to 2+ armour save units. Better yet, if it can't be placed, Terror from the Deep repeats the same thing again! If it still can't be placed, then there is a 50% chance it goes back into Ongoing reserves, allowing it to do the same thing next turn, without suffering any damage.
2. Deployment. The Mawloc directly influences your opponents deployment by forcing units out of position. No longer can they be bunched together in cover, since a Mawloc could claim them all. Instead, an opponent has to account for the Mawloc and deploy in a manner they might not normally want to.
3. Gunline nightmare. Due to the unlimited range of the Mawloc's Terror from the Deep, it, alongside the long range Biovores, are one of the best units to use against a gunline army. In addition, it is an immediate threat once it comes up as it can charge the next turn. This means the Mawloc can act as a huge bullet magnet and allow the rest of a Tyranid army to move up the field relatively unharmed.
4. Interceptor. As Terror from the Deep is resolved in the Movement Phase, this allows you to potentially remove units that could cause harm to your other units.
5. Invisibility. This is perhaps the Mawlocs greatest asset. Since the Mawloc does not fire it's Large Blast, it can target Invisible units. Provided it doesn't scatter, it can severely reduce the damage output of a Invisible Deathstar.
6. Hit and Run. This means the Mawloc can remove itself from combat if it finds him self there. With I4, it has a 2/3 of removing itself on the opponents turn and simply Burrow on the Tyranid turn, allowing it to use Terror from the Deep. Hit and Run also allows it to act as a tarpit and hold a unit in place and when the time is right, remove itself from combat to allow the rest of the army to shoot at that unit.
7. Cheap. The Mawloc, by comparison to other Monstrous Creatures in the Codex, is the cheapest model when talking about points per wound (140 points for 6 wounds or 23.3 per wound) while also sporting a 3+ armour save.
8. Instinctive Behaviour. The Mawloc operates without Synapse just as well as within Synapse, being naturally Fearless and only a single model, it suffers no consequences when testing for Instinctive Behaviour: Feed. The only time that Instinctive Behaviour may affect a Mawloc is when it gives it Rage. If, for some reason, it would be forced to charge a unit in the Assault phase, it can simply Burrow for that turn.
The Mawloc has a place in all Tyranid armies and is a solid option overall. The only downsides to taking a Mawloc is that it can scatter off it's intended target and does not fare that well in combat, which is where it is likely to be after it comes up.
Overall rating: B
YMDC = nightmare
2014/11/23 19:59:46
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Tyrant Guard serve one single purpose; to protect the Hive Tyrant.
1. They are now 10 points cheaper.
2. More streamlined for defense.
The Tyrant Guard brood is a sturdy and good investment for any ground based Hive Tyrant or Swarmlord. With the changes to the Shieldwall rule, a guard is a 50 point pair of ablative wounds for it. One point to note is that once combined, the Hive Tyrant is unable to leave, which means that any pairing must have good synergy. This immediately cancels out buying Tyrant Guard for any flyrants in your army. So, to understand fully what this means, you can't fly, and drop pods are out of the question since it it would require 2 pods to carry the unit. It will be forced to cover any distance on foot. Now, to make a point of this, if you are not running a Swarmlord, adrenal glands are nearly mandatory for a close combat oriented tyrant guard brood in order to ensure that you waste as little time as possible in the open. This helps to add extra durability by keeping them sweeping from assault to assault with fleet, spending as little time as possible in the open to be shot by your opponents high strength high AP weaponry.
Now, when you get down to it, the Tyrant Guard serve only in 2 specific functions. You bring them along to ensure that your Hive Tyrant survives from point A to point B, or as a combat multiplier. A brood of 3 stock guard are a good insurance policy for a Swarmlord or tooled out Hive Tyrant with Reaper, etc. These are serious point investments and an extra 6 wounds will ensure that they absorb plenty of punishment. Another option is if you have a walkrant and you plan for it to go after vehicles. Armed with a venom cannon, it would not be out of the question to take a single or pair of guard with a single or even both with crushing claws to add extra damage for vehicles. The trick at this point is to try and conserve points between the two to ensure you don't wind up with a too expensive unit that may take longer than expected to make back its points. A tyrant going after characters or multi-wound MCs would never leave home without several guard armed with the LW/BS combo to give the unit multiple attacks coming in at I7 with a good chance to ID.
Now, one last thing to mention is that you can purposefully make a suicide tyrant unit. Just keep the tyrant stock and keep it to the front of a brood of LW/BS guards. Allow it to tank rounds and avoid using the auto-passing LOS rule until it gets to a single wound. At which point, by the time you enter melee, you will have a very vulnerable tyrant that might just die in overwatch. At which point, you have 3 very angry Tyrant Guard in assault. That will be 15 S6 attacks at I7 with Rending/ID on 6s. Not much will live since you can hit most units on 3s.
Grades: B- (CrushGuard), B- (LW/BS Guard), C (Vanilla)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/23 20:00:15
"There is a cancer eating at the Imperium. With each decade it advances deeper, leaving drained, dead worlds in its wake. This horror, this abomination, has thought and purpose that functions on an unimaginable, galactic scale and all we can do is try to stop the swarms of bioengineered monsters it unleashes upon us by instinct. We have given the horror a name to salve our fears; we call it the Tyranid race, but if is aware of us at all it must know us only as Prey."
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Servants of the Void 2000+
2014/11/23 20:02:51
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Game number two down trying out double tyrannocytes and triple flyrants using a single cad/ leviathan detachment.
It's so strong but a word of warning, look out for Wraith guard with D-Scythes. Totally forgot about them and ended up losing a Flyrant in flight mode, a Carnifex and a Tyrannocyte all on in turn thanks to their ID on a 6.
NASTY!
Batrep will be up tomorrow.
2014/11/23 20:33:39
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
SHUPPET wrote: I might be missing something about the Swarmlord that might make it a lot better than I think it is - I've seen this mention of him getting a 2+ save from the Malanthrope twice now - how is this? If this is the case I think I might have to change my opinion, that makes a big difference from 3+.
he gets a 2+ save from the malanthrope like any other model gets a 2+ save from the malanthrope: shrouding.
edit: still groggy, someone may have addressed this and i just didn't see it.
jy2 wrote: Where do barbed Heirodules fit into the new, new Nids then? do they have a place?
YES! See my review above.
I agree. They are pretty much what Rupture Cannon TFexes should be, durable S10 shooting, and can tear it up in assault.
Just wondering, can they take a drop pod? Battle scribe lists it as an option, but that can't be right can it... I don't know that it would make them much better,but I do know it doesn't make much sense thematically lol
GC can take a pod, though you should probably expect some wailing and gnashing of teeth from your opponent. page 70, brb: 'GC are monstrous creatures (pg 67) that have the following additional rules and exceptions' etc. you'll just have to abide by the rest of the rules for the pod, which means the unit has to be completely within 6" of the pod when it deploys. the 'duyles are on 5" bases and should be the only ones that will fit.
i wouldn't do this with a barby as that negates the whole point (high S long ranged shooting at volume), but a scythed, sure. hellstorm precision drop turn 2, again turn 3 and then charge.
really it's no worse than getting MoA and infiltrating them turn 1.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/11/23 21:47:40
2014/11/23 22:08:30
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
SHUPPET wrote: I might be missing something about the Swarmlord that might make it a lot better than I think it is - I've seen this mention of him getting a 2+ save from the Malanthrope twice now - how is this? If this is the case I think I might have to change my opinion, that makes a big difference from 3+.
I'm guessing she's dipping a toe into a ruin, plus Shrouding...
The will of the hive is always the same: HUNGER
2014/11/23 22:19:01
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
^ Am I the only one who refers to most Tyranids as she's?
In fact the only males I have are Tyrants, Lictors, Trygons, Venomthropes, Tyrant Guard and Genestealers. Everyone else I refer to as female. It irks me to no end when people call Tervigons males.
Iechine wrote: ^ Am I the only one who refers to most Tyranids as she's?
In fact the only males I have are Tyrants, Lictors, Trygons, Venomthropes, Tyrant Guard and Genestealers. Everyone else I refer to as female. It irks me to no end when people call Tervigons males.
Nids are neither! They are sexless.
Doesn't mean they aren't sexy though...
2014/11/23 22:31:08
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Iechine wrote: ^ Am I the only one who refers to most Tyranids as she's?
In fact the only males I have are Tyrants, Lictors, Trygons, Venomthropes, Tyrant Guard and Genestealers. Everyone else I refer to as female. It irks me to no end when people call Tervigons males.
Not the Only one.
The will of the hive is always the same: HUNGER
2014/11/23 23:03:22
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Eldercaveman wrote: So just how fragile is a Tyrant from a Skytyrant formation. To me it seems like it could be one of the best ways to get a fourth tyrant into a Leviathan list (only allowing one detachment + formation). But does the T3 kill it?
I did a test scenario. 30 Gargoyles+Reaper Tyrant + Malanthrope vs 2 Bustides, an Ion Tide, and 6 missilesides. It didn't go well for the Tyrant.
I understand that this is a Worst case scenario in many ways. This is part of a Tau TAC list. I really think SkyTyrant is the most interesting formation to come out of Shield of Baal, and will be trying to figure out its viability, but for right now, I'm thinking it is pretty good, but not an answer to our problems. Mainly great against Wraith Knights, and Dread Knights. Has a problem against Imperial Knights.
I'm not sure if Skytyrant makes it into TAC lists, but I think it has probably redefined how I run Raveners.
In the test run, was there any terrain (LOS), did the nids players able to cast Catalyst on the entire unit before hand, and what was the other 1000+ points of the nids army doing? The test can't be done in a vaccum. I'd love for entire Tau army to shoot at 40+ gargoyles instead of the other 3 flyrants and Zoans/etc. Maybe you didn't have enough Gargoyles, 20 is not enough to protect the flyrant on the ground. You need enough to bubble out the drop pod rapid fire range, otherwise the formation is just as useful as 1 flyrant and 2 broods of gargoyles.
It wasn't a terribly meaningful test. I figured in 90% of the lists running Skytyrant, that is going to be the biggest threat to Riptides, and to a lesser extent broadsides. So a Tau gunline is going to have very few reasons to shoot at anything else. I did give them FNP for the purpose of the test, figuring that I would roll catalyst on one of my 3 Flyrants.
We know that Skytyrant isn't going to help us against most Vehicle MSU lists, and those lists are in right now. However that doesn't mean the formation isn't viable. For instance, LAN biovores don't help against Vehicle spam, but they are so amazingly effective against infantry that we figure they are generally worth it. If Skytyrant was a similarly powerful counter to Tau gunline, it would be worth taking a bit of a hit vs Vehicle spam.
2014/11/24 04:05:18
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Eldercaveman wrote: So just how fragile is a Tyrant from a Skytyrant formation. To me it seems like it could be one of the best ways to get a fourth tyrant into a Leviathan list (only allowing one detachment + formation). But does the T3 kill it?
I did a test scenario. 30 Gargoyles+Reaper Tyrant + Malanthrope vs 2 Bustides, an Ion Tide, and 6 missilesides. It didn't go well for the Tyrant.
I understand that this is a Worst case scenario in many ways. This is part of a Tau TAC list. I really think SkyTyrant is the most interesting formation to come out of Shield of Baal, and will be trying to figure out its viability, but for right now, I'm thinking it is pretty good, but not an answer to our problems. Mainly great against Wraith Knights, and Dread Knights. Has a problem against Imperial Knights.
I'm not sure if Skytyrant makes it into TAC lists, but I think it has probably redefined how I run Raveners.
Your failing a lot of 2+ LOS!, then 2+ Jinks or cover saves of 3+ to 5+. I am wondering it this might be a good candidate for an RC Tyrant, it is already AP2 so you just need the claws for that +1 to rip through the knights. Maybe with AG, for S7 on the charge so you can glance on 5's punch through on 6.
2014/11/24 04:17:24
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Hey fellow 'nid players, I've been watching this thread a long time and I'm glad to see the barbed hierodule is finally getting some attention - I've been using him for the better part of a year now and he's become a mainstay in my lists (unless we aren't running LoW at my shop, or im trying something new).
What I find though is you can anchor him down and buff him much cheaper by getting a bastion w/ ammo dump upgrade and a venomthrope to embark inside it. I'll usually deploy the bastion at the front of my deployment zone wherever its got best line of sight, and plop the big guy right on top. Battlements count as ruins, so he has a 2+ cover save with the thrope in the building and basically can't be assaulted as far as I know since nobody else fits up on top with him.
Ammo dump lets him reroll those 1's in shooting, and his forward position makes him a big threat. The bastion with thrope lets me hide a flyrant and things for the first turn, and him being that high up lets him get clean shots off downfield over your own models pretty easily.
Edit: the only issue I have yet to figure out rules-wise is how he gets OFF the building short of it detonating. He cant embark into the building being a GC and 7th got rid of rules for leaping off structures, but I usually don't want to move him anyway.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/24 04:19:08
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