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2014/11/27 16:05:18
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Frozocrone wrote: Would anyone considering taking a CAD over a Hive Fleet Detachment if only to get Aegis/Bastion w/ Comms Relay?
I'm considering running a list with 2 Flyrants, two min unit Neurothropes in a Pod and two Dakkafex and thinking the Comms Relay would be much more useful than re-roll IB
The Leviathan detachment is not necessarily an auto-take. Many will run it to max out on flyrants. However, there will be some who won't base their offense primarily on those flyrants. Thus, a normal CAD is still viable, especially for the fortification.
Or you could just run Leviathan + normal CAD if you really wanted.
Frozocrone wrote: Would anyone considering taking a CAD over a Hive Fleet Detachment if only to get Aegis/Bastion w/ Comms Relay?
I'm considering running a list with 2 Flyrants, two min unit Neurothropes in a Pod and two Dakkafex and thinking the Comms Relay would be much more useful than re-roll IB
The Leviathan detachment is not necessarily an auto-take. Many will run it to max out on flyrants. However, there will be some who won't base their offense primarily on those flyrants. Thus, a normal CAD is still viable, especially for the fortification.
Or you could just run Leviathan + normal CAD if you really wanted.
^^ this. There are only 4 reasons not to run Leviathan + normal CAD:
1) Your local TO deems it OP and disallows it
2) You agree with Ordosean and think it's too much like double CAD, so you restrict yourself
3) You really dislike Mucolids (the normal 45 point tax to open Leviathan)
4) You use a formation of some kind, thus disallowing both Leviathan and a CAD under the standard two source format
I plan on trying it out just to see what I can do with a bunch of Lictors. I think 2.5 extra lictors might be better over Deathleaper, so I'll throw 5-6 to fill up the Elites slots and see what happens from there. I don't plan on running a bunch of Flyrants, but I'll definitely be excited to see how our army fares in the next tournament that allows this.
2014/11/27 16:42:11
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
I think we would all agree it is a very, very powerful list, and I think most of us agree that using it would be a dick move and create unfun games.
For myself, I'm not going to run 2 CAD or Leviathan plus CAD, or even Leviathan plus Tyranid Ally. If that means I'm not in competition to win tournaments so be it. But at least my games will still be fun, and I will have held up my end of the social contract involved in 40k.
2014/11/27 17:46:42
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Frozocrone wrote: Would anyone considering taking a CAD over a Hive Fleet Detachment if only to get Aegis/Bastion w/ Comms Relay?
I'm considering running a list with 2 Flyrants, two min unit Neurothropes in a Pod and two Dakkafex and thinking the Comms Relay would be much more useful than re-roll IB
The Leviathan detachment is not necessarily an auto-take. Many will run it to max out on flyrants. However, there will be some who won't base their offense primarily on those flyrants. Thus, a normal CAD is still viable, especially for the fortification.
Or you could just run Leviathan + normal CAD if you really wanted.
^^ this. There are only 4 reasons not to run Leviathan + normal CAD:
1) Your local TO deems it OP and disallows it
2) You agree with Ordosean and think it's too much like double CAD, so you restrict yourself
3) You really dislike Mucolids (the normal 45 point tax to open Leviathan)
4) You use a formation of some kind, thus disallowing both Leviathan and a CAD under the standard two source format
I plan on trying it out just to see what I can do with a bunch of Lictors. I think 2.5 extra lictors might be better over Deathleaper, so I'll throw 5-6 to fill up the Elites slots and see what happens from there. I don't plan on running a bunch of Flyrants, but I'll definitely be excited to see how our army fares in the next tournament that allows this.
Or you have a meta were OS + BRB tables are stronger than the extra HQ and Troops. While the leviathan table is better than the Codex table, it still leaves a lot to be desired.
2014/11/27 18:16:33
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
I think we would all agree it is a very, very powerful list, and I think most of us agree that using it would be a dick move and create unfun games.
For myself, I'm not going to run 2 CAD or Leviathan plus CAD, or even Leviathan plus Tyranid Ally. If that means I'm not in competition to win tournaments so be it. But at least my games will still be fun, and I will have held up my end of the social contract involved in 40k.
Awwww....tag, you're going to make me feel guilty for running 5 flyrants in my next game.
Was planning on showing how ridiculous 5 flyrants is going to be in the new meta for my next batrep. This is what I was planning on running:
barnowl wrote: Or you have a meta were OS + BRB tables are stronger than the extra HQ and Troops. While the leviathan table is better than the Codex table, it still leaves a lot to be desired.
Indeed, the Leviathan Warlord traits do have a couple of lame ducks and Strategic is still a very powerful table for the Tyranids (especially since you can re-roll on it, giving you a reasonable chance at Master of Ambush, and failing that Night Attacker, Strategic Genius and Divide to Conquer are all reasonably useful.
If you are running Skyblight then you're already able to bring three Tyrants (four is a lot of points to invest in Tyrants, which do have their weaknesses), similarly if you have designs on running Hypertoxic or Skytyrant then you can get a third flier in their (for less of an investment than Skyblight too).
Leviathan does let you re-roll IB rolls (just the D6 part by my reading?), but how useful that is to you depends on what you bring. A Crone for instance hates IB regardless of the result (but equally if it lets you re-roll the 2D6 test then it's actually pretty good).
2014/11/27 18:29:42
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Iechine wrote: Serpent spam the last two years = go to tournament list
Tyranids underdog for a long timethen get Tyrant spam = dick move
For many in tournament play, go-to-tournament list = dick move. LOL!!!
You know what's funny? You're going to see many of the competitive players - the same ones who have been running Eldar, Tau, centurionstar and other highly competitive tournament builds - coming back to Tyranids. These competitive players have a tendency to jump around to the newest competitive builds, and right now, Tyranids is it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/27 18:43:08
Iechine wrote: Serpent spam the last two years = go to tournament list Tyranids underdog for a long timethen get Tyrant spam = dick move
For many in tournament play, go-to-tournament list = dick move. LOL!!!
You know what's funny? You're going to see many of the competitive players - the same ones who have been running Eldar, Tau, centurionstar and other highly competitive tournament builds - coming back to Tyranids. These competitive players have a tendency to jump around to the newest competitive builds, and right now, Tyranids is it.
Yes and it's this that is going to cause me concern for a while anyway, as people tailor their lists to deal with TripRants :( On the flipside, it gives me more incentive to pick up my DE so that my locals don't say 'OMG OP, you're so cheesy for playing Tyranids when they are the best army out there' despite playing Nids when they only had the new Codex
Anyway, appreciate the feedback regarding Hive Fleet vs CAD everyone!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/27 19:04:22
YMDC = nightmare
2014/11/27 19:04:04
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
barnowl wrote: Or you have a meta were OS + BRB tables are stronger than the extra HQ and Troops. While the leviathan table is better than the Codex table, it still leaves a lot to be desired.
Indeed, the Leviathan Warlord traits do have a couple of lame ducks and Strategic is still a very powerful table for the Tyranids (especially since you can re-roll on it, giving you a reasonable chance at Master of Ambush, and failing that Night Attacker, Strategic Genius and Divide to Conquer are all reasonably useful.
If you are running Skyblight then you're already able to bring three Tyrants (four is a lot of points to invest in Tyrants, which do have their weaknesses), similarly if you have designs on running Hypertoxic or Skytyrant then you can get a third flier in their (for less of an investment than Skyblight too).
Leviathan does let you re-roll IB rolls (just the D6 part by my reading?), but how useful that is to you depends on what you bring. A Crone for instance hates IB regardless of the result (but equally if it lets you re-roll the 2D6 test then it's actually pretty good).
For the most part IB Feed looks pretty Crone friendly. Your going to be shooting things anyway.
2014/11/27 21:30:58
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
barnowl wrote: Or you have a meta were OS + BRB tables are stronger than the extra HQ and Troops. While the leviathan table is better than the Codex table, it still leaves a lot to be desired.
Indeed, the Leviathan Warlord traits do have a couple of lame ducks and Strategic is still a very powerful table for the Tyranids (especially since you can re-roll on it, giving you a reasonable chance at Master of Ambush, and failing that Night Attacker, Strategic Genius and Divide to Conquer are all reasonably useful.
If you are running Skyblight then you're already able to bring three Tyrants (four is a lot of points to invest in Tyrants, which do have their weaknesses), similarly if you have designs on running Hypertoxic or Skytyrant then you can get a third flier in their (for less of an investment than Skyblight too).
Leviathan does let you re-roll IB rolls (just the D6 part by my reading?), but how useful that is to you depends on what you bring. A Crone for instance hates IB regardless of the result (but equally if it lets you re-roll the 2D6 test then it's actually pretty good).
Yeah, I think the coolest thing to come out is that it can make sense to use several different formation. For a good while it was Skyblight if you want to go all in, LAN for a smaller buy-in. Now both Hyper toxic, and Skytyrant look like viable choices.
But I am still not sure about Leviathan vs base CAD...giving up Strategic for a third Tyrant is not an easy choice... I think I lean towards base CAD, and a Skytyrant, or a Hyper-toxic node...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/27 21:31:43
The will of the hive is always the same: HUNGER
2014/11/27 21:47:34
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Yeah, I think the coolest thing to come out is that it can make sense to use several different formation. For a good while it was Skyblight if you want to go all in, LAN for a smaller buy-in. Now both Hyper toxic, and Skytyrant look like viable choices.
But I am still not sure about Leviathan vs base CAD...giving up Strategic and the bastion for a third Tyrant is not an easy choice... I think I lean towards base CAD, and a Skytyrant, or a Hyper-toxic node...
Here....fixed that for you.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/27 21:47:58
Verviedi wrote: What is the point you guys think Flyrants began detract from an army at 1500 points? I currently run 2, but I'm planning on buying 2 more. My meta is full of experienced Nid players, and they all say 4 Flyrants at 1500 points tie up too many points at 1500 to make the list effective. Is this true?
I'd agree with them! I'd even say there is better options at 1850! 2 is a comfortable number for me, sometimes 3 at 1850 but most the time not
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2014/11/27 23:41:17
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Verviedi wrote: What is the point you guys think Flyrants began detract from an army at 1500 points? I currently run 2, but I'm planning on buying 2 more. My meta is full of experienced Nid players, and they all say 4 Flyrants at 1500 points tie up too many points at 1500 to make the list effective. Is this true?
Depends on playstyle preference really. From experience, 3 Flyrants is tough to deal with, especially at 1000, where it took up almost 3/4 of my armies points. They survived all game (bar one, which was the main target of the alpha strike and then only died on T3 due to Perils) and that was against MechTau (reduced to only the Commander left).
That said, I'm thinking of crafting a 1850 list with 2 Flyrants and instead making use of Dakkafex Pods.
There is a negative correlation between amount of Flyrants I run and how many potential opponents I have.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/27 23:42:02
YMDC = nightmare
2014/11/28 00:48:42
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Verviedi wrote: What is the point you guys think Flyrants began detract from an army at 1500 points? I currently run 2, but I'm planning on buying 2 more. My meta is full of experienced Nid players, and they all say 4 Flyrants at 1500 points tie up too many points at 1500 to make the list effective. Is this true?
There is a negative correlation between amount of Flyrants I run and how many potential opponents I have.
4 Flyrants at 1500 isn't really any different than 5 at 1850, except that it's more difficult for your opponent to deal with, especially if he's bringing a TAC list. That being said, I wouldn't run either of those lists (or even 4 Flyrants at 1850) unless someone specifically asked me to. It's a very tough list and ABSOLUTELY makes people less inclined to play you. It's just not fun for them, and a good opponent will see the 2 hour beat down that they're about to take and avoid it accordingly. If your opponent wants to play against a tournament list, I'd still tell them what you want to bring because it is definitely a viable (and possibly very good) tournament list that they would have to face in that setting. But outside of a tournament or tournament practice, it doesn't really have any place in a casual setting. It ties up a lot of points, yes, but Tyranids are able to support it adequately and make it work.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AdeptSister wrote: So how long do you think it will take for the meta to include more skyfire in lists?
It almost doesn't matter. People do include some Skyfire as is, but Tyranids are still somewhat of a counter-meta army when they go Flyrant spam, even with Daemons being a force in the FMC meta. So people have to think, "I have a relatively small chance of facing FMC spam from Tyranids/Daemons, so I should include some Skyfire". Daemons have some difficulty dealing with this due to less than awesome shooting, but Tyranids have more volume of fire, so they typically can deal with whatever AA your opponent brought and then rampage about anyhow. If they bring enough AA to deal with Tyranids, then they are disadvantaging themselves against the rest of the field (except maybe Daemons and some select units from other armies). In short, it's a lose-lose for them and a win-win for us
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/11/28 02:56:33
2014/11/28 03:34:56
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Yeah, I think the coolest thing to come out is that it can make sense to use several different formation. For a good while it was Skyblight if you want to go all in, LAN for a smaller buy-in. Now both Hyper toxic, and Skytyrant look like viable choices.
But I am still not sure about Leviathan vs base CAD...giving up Strategic and the bastion for a third Tyrant is not an easy choice... I think I lean towards base CAD, and a Skytyrant, or a Hyper-toxic node...
Here....fixed that for you.
Thanx! Though you know I don't use a Box...
The will of the hive is always the same: HUNGER
2014/11/28 05:27:14
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Iechine wrote: Serpent spam the last two years = go to tournament list
Tyranids underdog for a long timethen get Tyrant spam = dick move
Playing serpent spam (min squads inside) is a dick move. No argument from me. You wouldn't catch me putting that crap on the table.
Not a dick move because I enjoy playing against the stiffest competition possible, however not my personal cup of tea for an army I'd like to bring to the table. Seems kinda boring, and OPness would suck the fun out of every win.
P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it.
2014/11/28 17:21:14
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
The cousin of the barbed hierodule, the scythed hierodule (SH) is not quite as versatile as his brethren, due mainly to his lack of shooting. However, he is a more dangerous monster in Assault and is better at clearing out infantry than his cousin. So why should one consider the scythed hierodule as his Lord of War?
1. Shooting. Now you may think, huh? What shooting? Simply put, the scythed hierodule has arguably the best weapon for clearing out standard infantry in the Tyranid arsenal. The S6 AP3 "gun" of the scythed hierodule uses the massive, Apocalypse Hellstorm template. What's more, it will deny FNP from any of the T3 units that it hits, and it will hit any unit within an open-topped vehicle that is caught in its crosshairs.
2. He is deadly in assault. The SH will kill all but the toughest units in close combat. It will also kill most non-super-heavy tanks in just 1 round of combat. Against deathstar or the more elite Assault units, it has its fearsome stomp attacks as well.
3. Mobility. The BH is quite fast, due to its 12" move and Move Through Cover. It's also got the Agile rule, meaning that it can run double-time or it can run and still fire 1 gun. In essence, you will always be running with the SH unless you are planning to assault.
4. Board control/area denial. Because of his mobility and lethality in combat, very few enemy units, with the exception of dedicated enemy Assault units, will want to go near him. This makes him a great tool for the Tyranid player to use to direct the enemy to where he wants. In most cases, the SH is great as a board control unit and to deny the opposing army lots of real estate on the battlefield.
5. Bullet magnet. Although he can be taken down with enough shooting, the SH can also absorb a lot of firepower, thus making it easier for the rest of the army. If you keep a venom/malanthrope by his side (and if there are ruins nearby), it is not too hard to give him 2+ cover. Combined with his high Toughness and his natural FNP, he becomes highly resistant to most shooting. As long as you play him aggressively, and if you can move him from ruins to ruins for some cover, he WILL draw and absorb a lot of fire if the opponent has the guns to do so. When he does, that is a very good thing for the rest of the army.
Now he isn't without his limitations. He has some weaknesses that you need to take into consideration when fielding him on the table:
1. He is actually no harder to shoot down than an Eldar wraithknight. He is only slightly more resilient due to his natural FNP and with the presence of a malan/venomthrope. However, with him being so fast, he has a tendency to outpace any malan/venomthropes that are protecting him.
2. Assault. While he is very good in assault, you do have to be careful of what you are assaulting with him. Lack of an Invulnerable save, low Initiative, lack of grenades, lack of any re-rolls to hit and a low number of wounds means that he is at a disadvantage against some of the better assault units out there. The faster Imperial Knights with their D-weapons, massed S8 AP2 attacks (i.e. thunderhammers, power klaws), targets with good Invulnerable saves, Grey Knight force weapons, massed rending and deathstar builds can usually kill it in assault. Other units like wraithknights can also kill it if it had already taken wounds.
3. Lack of shooting. Though his bio-acid spray is great against normal infantry, it isn't quite as effective against tanks (other than open-topped AV10 transports) and elite units (monstrous creatures or units with 2+ saves). It can do nothing to flying units.
4. He is expensive for what he does. He cannot insta-kill other wraithknights, riptides, dreadknights and other MC's unlike the dimachaeron. He's got low Weapon Skill and low Initiative for a primarily close combat unit. In order words, he is just not as efficient in killing as some of the other assault units. For his price, you could almost get 2 dimachaerons in tyrannocytes and they would kill things much more efficiently in assault. The only advantage he has in assault is his stomp attacks and that he can more reliably kill enemy tanks. Also, he lacks the resiliency to go toe-to-toe against some of the better enemy assault units. Even 2 wraithknights, who still cost less than him combined but has almost double his resiliency, can beat him in combat if all 3 were in combat together.
Grade: B (normal 40K games), C (larger, Apoc-sized games)
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/11/28 18:48:04
badula wrote: Sorry if this has already been pointed out but....
have you seen the deathstorm pics?
carnifex is on an oval base
broodlord too!
mib on 32 mm bases....
Men this could lead to a SHITSTORM not a deathstorm....
your thoughts?
105mm Oval Base and 1 x 75mm Oval Base respectively. That will be interesting for sure.
"Shield of Baal: Deathstorm contains the Blood Angels Strike Force Deathstorm, and the Tyranids’ Phodian Annihilation Swarm." Personally just hoping the PAS does something good for 'stealers.
2014/11/28 21:47:28
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
So what do you do if you have models with the old bases and get some more with the new bases and don't want to rebase? Buy more old bases, use both bases?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/28 22:46:23
2014/11/28 22:39:14
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
durecellrabbit wrote: So what do you do if you have models with the old bases and get some more with the new bases and don't want to rebase? Buy more old bases, used both bases?
you are getting to my POV...
of course is not a problem if i play at my local friendly club....
but.... tournaments???
with this gw is creating loopholes.... just the things this game needs!^^
2014/11/28 23:25:38
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
durecellrabbit wrote: So what do you do if you have models with the old bases and get some more with the new bases and don't want to rebase? Buy more old bases, used both bases?
you are getting to my POV...
of course is not a problem if i play at my local friendly club....
but.... tournaments???
with this gw is creating loopholes.... just the things this game needs!^^
Honestly, as mentioned before, it don't think that something as minor as that is going to be neither game changing or game breaking, it's just a base.
I'm just happy tyranids finally get some attention we needed, I might even get my hopes up that the next dex might be better
.....Bay Area Open GT 2013 - Best Tyranids 
.....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals
I think I lean towards base 
