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2014/12/01 21:21:33
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
jifel wrote: Side note: Current rumors are that the new Broodlord character will provide Stealth and Preferred enemy to his squad... What do you guys think that will do for Genestealers? I see it being potentially very very useful, I'm probably even going to play test a big 20 unit with the Spawn!
Wouldn't be surprised if the only way to take the Spawn of Cryptus is through the Children of Cryptus unit - the 8 genestealers and the special broodlord included in the box set.
I'm hoping that the Genestealers may be upgraded/buy more models like notmal Stealers, but we'll know for sure soon.
2014/12/01 21:31:52
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
The Harpy is a curious creature. While at first glance appearing to be a gunship with a panoply of guns and the Hunt Instinctive Behavior, as a shooting platform the Harpy will generally come up short compared to a duel devourer-equipped Tyrant due to its blast based weaponry. However, if one looks deeper one will find the following.
- Sonic Screech: On the turn in which the Harpy charges, all enemy units in the combat have their suffer a -5 penalty to their initiative (to a minimum of 1) until the end of that assault phase.
This is the key ability of the Harpy and is the primary reason to consider bringing one outside of formations that require their inclusion. Sonic Screech serves as a major force multiplier for Tyranid melee capabilities. The ability to force enemies to swing after your own units (or at worst simultaneously) has a huge impact on both the survivability and damage potential of said units and can be the difference between successfully crippling (if not destroying) the enemy and being wiped out.
Outside of its sonic screech ability, the Harpy is a fairly unremarkable monstrous creature with a below-average (for a monstrous creature) S5, T5, and 4+ armor save, along with the standard WS/BS 3 and an unusually high initiative of 5. While its firepower isn't as potent as that of a Hive Tyrant, the Harpy does offer board-wide coverage thanks to the range of the bio-cannons and can play more cautiously as needed thanks to this. In terms of vulnerabilities, the Harpy shares most of the same weaknesses as other Tyranid monstrous creatures, with the added concern of Ap4 weapons (particularly Autocannons and Krak Grenades) and S10 weaponry that can double it out. In addition, the Harpy is virtually defenseless against enemy aircraft due to its weaponry being mostly blasts (and the few attacks that it can use against aircraft are both S5), unlike the other two Tyranid flying monsters.
Biomorphs:
- Scything Talons (stock): Currently does nothing for the Harpy, since it has no other melee weapons to pair them with and the AP6 from the talons is overruled by the Smash rule. Moving on…
- Spore Cysts (stock): This unusual weapon allows the Harpy to do what amounts to a bombing run during the movement phase with more or less the same weapon as a Biovore. Due to the wording of the rules for firing, the shot has no restrictions on using the Harpy’s Ballistic Skill to reduce its D6’’ scatter, giving the Spore Cysts near perfect accuracy against anything short of a heavily depleted squad (being a barrage weapon, this makes it is quite good for picking out special weapons and the like).
- Twin-linked Stranglethorn Cannon (stock): The default weapon carried by the Harpy, good for thinning out hoard-type units and general anti-infantry firepower. As a pinning weapon, it can also be used to try to pin squads in preparation for assault, with the usual caveats over the reliability of pinning. A good weapon if the only thing needed from the Harpy is it be present (due to a formation) or if it is intended to act purely as a melee support (meaning it will be jinking most of the time for survivability, making its guns irrelevant).
- Twin-linked Heavy Venom Cannon: The Heavy Venom Cannon exchanges blast size for the ability to pierce 4+ armor and the strength needed for vehicle hunting. While not a particularly good anti-tank weapon due to the low rate of fire and poor AP, the HVC does offer the ability to pop Quantum Shielding at range for devourer-equipped units to finish off and it does have decent accuracy and range. Better in a meta with a higher quantity of xenos armies, less effective against Imperial ones.
- Stinger Salvo: Upgrades the Harpy with a non-blast weapon, allowing it to shoot at other fliers and fire overwatch. Bit expensive though for what it does and the low strength limits the amount of damage that can be done.
- Cluster Spines: Upgrades the Harpy with another large blast weapon, allowing it to throw out two a turn without having to use its Spore Cysts. Again though, bit expensive for what it does (makes the Harpy only 5 points cheaper than a Hive Crone) and irrelevant if the Harpy is being used in a support role.
- Acid Blood: Synergizes quite well with the Sonic Screech rule, but is generally not worth it since it is horribly unreliable in any rounds of combat beyond the first and does nothing if the Harpy is being used as a gunship.
- Regeneration: While flying monsters are in a good position to take advantage of Regeneration, it is extremely expensive and undercuts the main advantage of the Harpy being cheap.
- Toxin Sacs: Generally better put on whatever the Harpy will be supporting with its sonic screech rather than the Harpy itself, since its low quantity of attacks coupled with low strength limit the benefit of poisoned attacks.
- Adrenal Glands: Again, generally better put on the real combat units that the Harpy is supporting rather than the Harpy itself. Being able to move as a jump monstrous creature, the Harpy can save its jump move to act as pseudo-Fleet if necessary.
Grade: B (as a force multiplier) | C (as a gunship)
Hive Crone:
Unlike its cousin, the Hive Crone is strictly designed as an offense unit. While the Hive Crone sports an impressive arsenal that covers most unit types as viable targets, it is primarily an anti-air and anti-infantry specialist thanks the nerfs to the Vector Strike rule against ground targets in 7th edition.
In competitive play, the Hive Crone’s main function is that of a toolbox unit. Due to its diverse selection of weaponry combined with mobility, the Hive Crone can be used to fill gaps that emerge in a player’s offensive arsenal turn by turn - ranging from rooting entrenched troops out of cover with its templates strike to anti-heavy armor with Tentaclids and Vector Strike. It also serves excellently as an interceptor, being able to enter ongoing reserves in order to ambush enemy fliers arriving from reserves without sacrificing synapse coverage.
The Crone shares most of the weaknesses of the Harpy, but with the added concern of its Instinctive Behavior disabling its guns if it should fail (Ld 10 makes this fairly unlikely, but still something to keep in mind). With the onset of 7th, the Crone lost much of its ability against light ground vehicles, since it lacks the quantity of attacks needed to wipe out such a target on its own in one pass. Likewise, it also lost much of its capability against heavy infantry (and to a lesser extent ground-based monstrous creatures).
Unique Special Rules:
- Raking Strike: Upgrades the Hive Crone’s Vector Strike to S8 rather than the base S5 of the creature, making it far more dangerous against other monstrous creatures, able to hurt vehicles up to AV13, and adding the ability to double out T4 models. Simple, but effective.
Biomorphs:
- Scything Talons (stock): Like the Harpy, the Hive Crone has no other melee weapons to pair them with and the AP6 from the talons is overruled by the Smash rule.
- Drool Cannon (stock): Effectively a short-barreled version of the Tyrannofex’s Acid Spray, virtually identical apart from the lack of the Torrent rule. With the Crone being prone to vector striking things, the lack of Torrent isn't too big of an issue as it will generally be in range of something anyway.
- Tentaclids (4x stock): One-shot S5 Ap5 Haywire missiles that can reroll failed to hit rolls against aircraft. Due to the Crone’s mediocre ballistic skill, these are generally best reserved for finishing off enemy aircraft between vector strike attack runs. If no aircraft are available, they can be used to help soften up AV13+ vehicles, though again their accuracy is greatly reduced.
- Stinger Salvo: A bit more palatable on the Hive Crone, worth considering as a back-up gun for once it has used all of its Tentaclids. Not a must have, but an okay place to spend the last couple points in a list.
- Cluster Spines: Similar to the above, but limited to strictly anti-infantry due to its nature as a blast. Since the Crone already has its excellent template weapon, the Salvo is probably a bit more ideal for it (not to mention it is cheaper).
- Acid Blood: Seeing as the Crone has no reason to ever leave Swooping-mode…
-Regeneration: While flying monsters are in a good position to take advantage of Regeneration, it is extremely expensive for what it does and once the Crone has expended its Tentaclids it looses most of its perceived threat value.
- Toxin Sacs: See Acid Blood. If the Crone is in combat, either something went terribly wrong or you are winning anyway.
- Adrenal Glands: Same as above.
Grade: B
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/12/02 05:35:29
2014/12/02 02:21:09
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Lets hear some anecdotes of Sonic Screech actually working in game. The only time I've had it help me out was when a harpy got grounded next to an imperial Knight, and It chraged in with some carnifexes. The Imperial Knight Killed both Carnifexes but on the 3rd round of combat the Harpy took it out then died in the explosion. That is the only time I've ever seen it have an actual effect, and I've run Harpies alot.
Strat_N8 wrote: -Regeneration: While flying monsters are in a good position to take advantage of Regeneration, it is extremely expensive for what it does and once the Crone has expended its Tentaclids it looses most of its perceived threat value.
Same question, has anybody ever actually taken regen on a Harpy or Crone and Regened a wound. I've never taken it because it doesn't really make sense to. Regen gets you back one wound if you are lucky, and the cost per wound of a Harpy is 27 points, so regen is a bad bargain. Crone is 31 so makes a tiny bit more sense. Also hapries and crones can't wound themselves via perils, nor are they likely to be targetted by the opponent alpha strike.
Strat_N8 wrote: Unlike its cousin, the Hive Crone is strictly designed as an offense unit. While the Hive Crone sports an impressive arsenal that covers most unit types as viable targets, it is primarily an anti-air specialist thanks the nerfs to the Vector Strike rule against ground targets in 7th edition coupled with its missiles’ inaccuracy against ground targets.
My Crones almost never do any anti-air. They vector strike a vehicle or elite infantry, and then lay a flamer down on infantry in cover. The flamer does the lion-share of the damage. With the Crone's mobility you can often maneuver to get multiple units with the flamer. Also 19 out 20 Tentaclids get shot at ground targets. I'm usually taking out flyer with flyrants or vector strike, and the Flame template is more important than a single glance to a flyrant, and so I generally forgo tentaclids in the late game when fliers are on the board.
Old One Eye is mainly a hammer HQ unit. He does help out his army somewhat with his Alpha Leader special rule, but mainly, he is just a blunt-force tool used to ram down the enemy's throat. Although I have not used him yet, I am finding it hard to fit him into my lists. First of all, how does he fit into a Tyranid army?
I have used Old One Eye quite alot, and I agree with your summation. Alpha Leader isn't near as useful as you imply. It is such a marginal effect, but your final grades are right on. There have been games with Old One Eye where he wasn't able to make it into combat until turn 5.
The only success I've had with him is vs Drop Pods. They usually don't want to alpha strike him, because he is usually one of the least threatening things in your army, but if they drop a group of marines close enough, he can charge in and wipe them out, and then prance around the backfield eating drop pods while the rest of your army takes care of business.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/02 02:31:10
2014/12/02 04:41:09
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
tetrisphreak wrote: Our weekly casual league is tonight, here's the list i'm going with for a laugh:
CAD
HQ - OOE (In a Tyrannocyte)
TP - Mucolid x1
TP - Mucolid x1
EL - Malanthrope x1
EL - Malanthrope x1
HV - Dakkafex x2
HV- Carnifex w ScyTals & AG x3
HV- Carnifex w CClaws & AG x2
Total - 1500 points
8 carnifexes and 2 malanthropes. Just because i have the models and i figured, why not. haha.
That is mean. OOE is going to be awreckingball in that list. Dakkafex hold midfeild covering the Mals, Crushers and and stock fex charge in head long, with OOE coming in round 3 as a finishing blow.
So I faced a mechanized Astra militarum list. He had a tank commander in a battle tank and a vanquisher bodyguard, 3 chimeras with vets, a solo Russ battle tank, a wyvern, and 3 basilisks. The game started in my favor with vanguard strike and I won 1st turn along with night fight.
Turn 3 my fexes reached his line of tanks and obliterated his HQ unit easily. I had destroyed a chimera with devourers the turn before and hadn't yet lost any fexes due to shrouded and ruins saves. He was demoralized seeing 7 carnifexes in his DZ with 1 more on the way via pod. (OOE Failed all his reserve rolls). At the end of turn 3 he flat conceded. Crushing victory to hive fleet Tigris!
Been out of the game for awhile, trying to find time to get back into it.
2014/12/02 05:34:18
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
tag8833 wrote: Lets hear some anecdotes of Sonic Screech actually working in game. The only time I've had it help me out was when a harpy got grounded next to an imperial Knight, and It chraged in with some carnifexes. The Imperial Knight Killed both Carnifexes but on the 3rd round of combat the Harpy took it out then died in the explosion. That is the only time I've ever seen it have an actual effect, and I've run Harpies alot.
I've had a couple events like the above, though without the Harpy having been grounded (it generally stays on the ground amongst the spore clouds unless against a gunline or else drops down on its own a turn in advance). A Harpy + two stock Carnifexes has generally been my go-to solution for Knights to this point as they are cheap enough to be expendable and have generally wrecked said Knights on the charge (I think the math was ~5 HPs on the charge on average). Today I also had a non-competitive game with my brothers where it saved my Tyrant from getting mauled. They had a Chapter Master and Dreadnaught pinned down by a handful of Hormagaunts. Since I had a maelstrom objective for killing the enemy warlord and taking out a vehicle, I sent my Hive Tyrant with its wounded Tyrant Guard in along with the Harpy. The sonic screech allowed the Tyrant Guard to get its swings in against the Dreadnaught before dying (it wrecked said Dreadnaught thanks to Crushing Claws) and allowed the Tyrant to get his swings in at the same time as the Chapter Master (having gone through cover - was a bit of insurance that it would at least get a chance to do damage). The Tyrant itself did two wounds to the Chapter Master and suffered two in return, then killed the Chapter Master in the next round as the remaining gaunts, Harpy, and Warriors were able to lend their attacks to the fight. We played the fight without the Harpy as a matter of curiosity and without it the Dreadnaught would have simply squashed the guard before it could swing and then proceeded to keep everything tied up and unable to help the Tyrant.
.
tag8833 wrote: Same question, has anybody ever actually taken regen on a Harpy or Crone and Regened a wound. I've never taken it because it doesn't really make sense to. Regen gets you back one wound if you are lucky, and the cost per wound of a Harpy is 27 points, so regen is a bad bargain. Crone is 31 so makes a tiny bit more sense. Also hapries and crones can't wound themselves via perils, nor are they likely to be targetted by the opponent alpha strike.
I generally don't take Regen as a matter of "bodies over bullets", but I remembered a couple people in here were discussing it being viable on them so left that note in.
My Crones almost never do any anti-air. They vector strike a vehicle or elite infantry, and then lay a flamer down on infantry in cover. The flamer does the lion-share of the damage. With the Crone's mobility you can often maneuver to get multiple units with the flamer. Also 19 out 20 Tentaclids get shot at ground targets. I'm usually taking out flyer with flyrants or vector strike, and the Flame template is more important than a single glance to a flyrant, and so I generally forgo tentaclids in the late game when fliers are on the board.
Fair enough.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/12/02 05:48:00
2014/12/02 07:07:03
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Sorry guys, but I'm going to put my reviews on hold for now. Instead, I've got 2 battle reports to share with the Hive Mind.
The 2nd game, I haven't played yet. It's my 5 flyrant list versus a tournament Eldar list run by GTA. That game is coming up later this week.
The 1st game, I just finished today and let me say that it was an eye-widening experience. Got in a 1850 LVO practice match against my Daemon friend, Chris. I was just testing stuff out, mainly the Skytyrant formation with a souped-up melee tyrant as well as the Fighter Ace upgrade. My list:
This is actually a rematch between my opponent, Chris, and I. We played 2 times already. The 1st game was an introduction for him to my dimachaeron. He had no idea what it could do and my dima proceeded to rampage through his army, killing over 1000-pts of daemons!
The 2nd game, he was very well prepared for my dimachaeron. He was also improving greatly, both with his list as well as his tactics. That was a tough game, as he summoned 850-pts of daemons in our game with only 2 summoning psykers:
This game, he brought out his 3rd generation list and probably his nastiest Summoning list so far:
Greater Unclean One - Lvl 3, 2x Greater Gifts
Greater Unclean One - Lvl 3, 2x Greater Gifts
3x Nurglings
3x Nurglings
Daemon Prince - Nurgle, Lvl 3, Wings, 2x Greater Gifts
Daemon Prince - Nurgle, Lvl 3, Wings, 2x Greater Gifts
Daemon Allies:
Keeper of Secret - Lvl 3, 2x Greater Gifts
3x Nurglings
Daemon Prince - Slaanesh, Lvl 2, Wings, 2x Greater Gifts
All 4 of his Nurgle MC's had baleswords. All 4 also had Warp Speed! Ouch! Both GUO's also had Iron Arm. Slaanesh MC's were pure summoning daemons and all 3 DP's could Summon. Thus, he had 4 summoning units.
I knew I was going to be in for a tough fight, but then, my worst fear came true on Turn 1. My Warlord flyrant, the 275-pt guy with Fighter Ace, periled while casting his psychic power. I then roll a ! Ok, need to make my LD10, no prob. I then roll , ! But wait....one of the 6's was cocked. So I re-rolled it and get a again! With that, my flyrant goes down on Turn 1, giving away both First Blood and Warlord!
Battle report will be coming tomorrow. Stay tuned....
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/12/02 07:16:33
This game, he brought out his 3rd generation list and probably his nastiest Summoning list so far:
Greater Unclean One - Lvl 3, 2x Greater Gifts Greater Unclean One - Lvl 3, 2x Greater Gifts
3x Nurglings 3x Nurglings
Daemon Prince - Nurgle, Lvl 3, Wings, 2x Greater Gifts Daemon Prince - Nurgle, Lvl 3, Wings, 2x Greater Gifts
Daemon Allies:
Keeper of Secret - Lvl 3, 2x Greater Gifts
3x Nurglings
Daemon Prince - Slaanesh, Lvl 2, Wings, 2x Greater Gifts
All 4 of his Nurgle MC's had baleswords. All 4 also had Warp Speed! Ouch! Both GUO's also had Iron Arm. Slaanesh MC's were pure summoning daemons and all 3 DP's could Summon. Thus, he had 4 summoning units.
I knew I was going to be in for a tough fight, but then, my worst fear came true on Turn 1. My Warlord flyrant, the 275-pt guy with Fighter Ace, periled while casting his psychic power. I then roll a ! Ok, need to make my LD10, no prob. I then roll , ! But wait....one of the 6's was cocked. So I re-rolled it and get a again! With that, my flyrant goes down on Turn 1, giving away both First Blood and Warlord!
Battle report will be coming tomorrow. Stay tuned...
That is quite the interesting Daemons list. I have to give him props, you don't see many (or any) people running 2 GUOs, and even less giving a top tier list trouble. I will be thoroughly interested in tactics on both sides of the table for this one. For all the times "cinematic" meant nothing in GW doublespeak, I think you two actually did something with it. . so many MCs!!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/02 08:50:12
"Backfield? I have no backfield."
2014/12/02 11:54:35
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Had a 6k game yesterday at Dropzone games, my forces vs a chaos detachment and Grey Knights as well. Turn three about 2k of Ravenwing bikes showed up.
Tyranids dominated throughout, they had almost no anti air and I had venomthropes and malanthrope working overtime. Although we called it at turn 3 because we are old and sleepy, it was a lot of fun. My Warrior deathstar fought a massive blob of Raptors and won, my Heirophant Bio torrented a massive group of bikes and then assaulted, killing about 900pts work of bikes in one turn.
My two Carnifexes both epically charged and tackled down a Dreadknight. Bugs actually lost very little in forces, maybe 1000pts worth despite being severely overmatched points wise.
Some pics from their page. Ill post some of mine if they turn out good.
Spoiler:
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/02 11:55:00
1) I will use 2 Harpy/Hive Crone boxes and 1 Trygon box.
2) I will use the 2 harpy bodies (1 will have tail cut off) back to back for a longer body.
3) Trygon Torso for the "Neck" and Head (he trygon without the tail part, I will also Use that tail + some other bits and make a cool Deamon Prince later, I have a CSM army that I want a Deamon alies for)
4) I will cut 1 set of wings a bit and shape the other set, to make 2 Large wigns
http://i.imgur.com/mNZJXni.png < Pic of paint (Im not good with Paint) The GREEN in the Pic will be Green stuff (I'd imagine I will need it there).
Each wing will be 4x8 ", The Tail to Head will be 12" (1 foot), Full model with Wings will be about 13x14"
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/12/02 16:46:30
Nice batrep Wilson. Confirmed for me what I've already been thinking about Flyrants - it is so dangerous to cast heavy duty psychic powers while flying. One perils, a grounding check later and you've lost half of your wounds probably (although one time I did cast Catalyst, then pass FNP so I never perilsed in the first place haha).
On an odd note that may have a place in YMDC, when exactly does your opponent declare if he is jinking or not? Warp lance may have some extra utility there if he has to declare before you declare how many dice you're throwing at the attempt to manifest. If he jinks, you throw 2 or even just 1 die. If not, you can then proceed to try harder.
Finally, my random "I can't believe this adds up to 1850/Leviathan may actually be broken" list of the day:
Flyrant w/Devs & EGrubs
Lictor
Lictor
Lictor
Mucolid
Mucolid
Mucolid
Mawloc
Mawloc
Mawloc
Flyrant w/Devs & EGrubs
Lictor
Lictor
Lictor
Rippers w/Deep Strike
Rippers w/Deep Strike
Mawloc
Mawloc
Mawloc
Bastion w/Comms
The lack of synapse is offset somewhat by leviathan's re-roll benefit, and I do like the 1:1 Lictor:Mawloc ratio haha...
2014/12/03 05:31:44
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
I tried out Skytyrant formation today against Tau.
Skytyrant was built like this:
Tyrant (Wings, Reaper of Obliterax, Rending Claws, E.Grubs)
10 Gargoyles
10 Gargoyles
My opponent wasn't really up to facing my list, and so I moved the formation out into the open rather than into a nice set of ruins on turn 2, and his entire army shot into it. I lost 16 gargoyles. On my turn 2, I tried to charge Farsight + 4 gun Drones + 3 Suites. After tau overwatch I lost all 4 remaining gargoyles, and took 3 wounds on the flyrant, and then failed a 7" charge.
Still, it occupied my opponents entire army for 2 turns, and my 8 raveners ran amok. Killed a riptide turn 2. Killed Fire Warriors turn 3. Killed more fire warriors turn 4. Killed a Devil Fish turn 5. My Exocrine + Dakkafex killed the suites once the formation failed, and my dakkaflyrant was able to safely kill lots and lots of suites thanks to the Skytyrant drawing all of the fire for 2 turns, and the Raveners dealing with all of the anti-air.
I also had 10 Hormagants that killed 6 pathfinders and then 12 Fire Warriors.
2014/12/03 15:05:33
Subject: Re:The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
tag8833 wrote: I tried out Skytyrant formation today against Tau.
Skytyrant was built like this:
Tyrant (Wings, Reaper of Obliterax, Rending Claws, E.Grubs)
10 Gargoyles
10 Gargoyles
My opponent wasn't really up to facing my list, and so I moved the formation out into the open rather than into a nice set of ruins on turn 2, and his entire army shot into it. I lost 16 gargoyles. On my turn 2, I tried to charge Farsight + 4 gun Drones + 3 Suites. After tau overwatch I lost all 4 remaining gargoyles, and took 3 wounds on the flyrant, and then failed a 7" charge.
Still, it occupied my opponents entire army for 2 turns, and my 8 raveners ran amok. Killed a riptide turn 2. Killed Fire Warriors turn 3. Killed more fire warriors turn 4. Killed a Devil Fish turn 5. My Exocrine + Dakkafex killed the suites once the formation failed, and my dakkaflyrant was able to safely kill lots and lots of suites thanks to the Skytyrant drawing all of the fire for 2 turns, and the Raveners dealing with all of the anti-air.
I also had 10 Hormagants that killed 6 pathfinders and then 12 Fire Warriors.
Sounds like you dominated pretty well. I love raveners, by the way - i'm glad to see other folks are using them too.
All that being said -- I'd never play it easy on a tau player with Nids. That's like a worm taking it easy on a sparrow.
Been out of the game for awhile, trying to find time to get back into it.
2014/12/03 17:56:08
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
As nice as these pics are, you would do better to post them in the Painting section and then just link to here. Otherwise this tactics thread will get clogged with WIPs and final works of Nids.
2014/12/03 18:11:34
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
The Harpy is a curious creature. While at first glance appearing to be a gunship with a panoply of guns and the Hunt Instinctive Behavior, as a shooting platform the Harpy will generally come up short compared to a duel devourer-equipped Tyrant due to its blast based weaponry. However, if one looks deeper one will find the following.
- Sonic Screech: On the turn in which the Harpy charges, all enemy units in the combat have their suffer a -5 penalty to their initiative (to a minimum of 1) until the end of that assault phase.
This is the key ability of the Harpy and is the primary reason to consider bringing one outside of formations that require their inclusion. Sonic Screech serves as a major force multiplier for Tyranid melee capabilities. The ability to force enemies to swing after your own units (or at worst simultaneously) has a huge impact on both the survivability and damage potential of said units and can be the difference between successfully crippling (if not destroying) the enemy and being wiped out.
Outside of its sonic screech ability, the Harpy is a fairly unremarkable monstrous creature with a below-average (for a monstrous creature) S5, T5, and 4+ armor save, along with the standard WS/BS 3 and an unusually high initiative of 5. While its firepower isn't as potent as that of a Hive Tyrant, the Harpy does offer board-wide coverage thanks to the range of the bio-cannons and can play more cautiously as needed thanks to this. In terms of vulnerabilities, the Harpy shares most of the same weaknesses as other Tyranid monstrous creatures, with the added concern of Ap4 weapons (particularly Autocannons and Krak Grenades) and S10 weaponry that can double it out. In addition, the Harpy is virtually defenseless against enemy aircraft due to its weaponry being mostly blasts (and the few attacks that it can use against aircraft are both S5), unlike the other two Tyranid flying monsters.
Biomorphs:
- Scything Talons (stock): Currently does nothing for the Harpy, since it has no other melee weapons to pair them with and the AP6 from the talons is overruled by the Smash rule. Moving on…
- Spore Cysts (stock): This unusual weapon allows the Harpy to do what amounts to a bombing run during the movement phase with more or less the same weapon as a Biovore. Due to the wording of the rules for firing, the shot has no restrictions on using the Harpy’s Ballistic Skill to reduce its D6’’ scatter, giving the Spore Cysts near perfect accuracy against anything short of a heavily depleted squad (being a barrage weapon, this makes it is quite good for picking out special weapons and the like).
- Twin-linked Stranglethorn Cannon (stock): The default weapon carried by the Harpy, good for thinning out hoard-type units and general anti-infantry firepower. As a pinning weapon, it can also be used to try to pin squads in preparation for assault, with the usual caveats over the reliability of pinning. A good weapon if the only thing needed from the Harpy is it be present (due to a formation) or if it is intended to act purely as a melee support (meaning it will be jinking most of the time for survivability, making its guns irrelevant).
- Twin-linked Heavy Venom Cannon: The Heavy Venom Cannon exchanges blast size for the ability to pierce 4+ armor and the strength needed for vehicle hunting. While not a particularly good anti-tank weapon due to the low rate of fire and poor AP, the HVC does offer the ability to pop Quantum Shielding at range for devourer-equipped units to finish off and it does have decent accuracy and range. Better in a meta with a higher quantity of xenos armies, less effective against Imperial ones.
- Stinger Salvo: Upgrades the Harpy with a non-blast weapon, allowing it to shoot at other fliers and fire overwatch. Bit expensive though for what it does and the low strength limits the amount of damage that can be done.
- Cluster Spines: Upgrades the Harpy with another large blast weapon, allowing it to throw out two a turn without having to use its Spore Cysts. Again though, bit expensive for what it does (makes the Harpy only 5 points cheaper than a Hive Crone) and irrelevant if the Harpy is being used in a support role.
- Acid Blood: Synergizes quite well with the Sonic Screech rule, but is generally not worth it since it is horribly unreliable in any rounds of combat beyond the first and does nothing if the Harpy is being used as a gunship.
- Regeneration: While flying monsters are in a good position to take advantage of Regeneration, it is extremely expensive and undercuts the main advantage of the Harpy being cheap.
- Toxin Sacs: Generally better put on whatever the Harpy will be supporting with its sonic screech rather than the Harpy itself, since its low quantity of attacks coupled with low strength limit the benefit of poisoned attacks.
- Adrenal Glands: Again, generally better put on the real combat units that the Harpy is supporting rather than the Harpy itself. Being able to move as a jump monstrous creature, the Harpy can save its jump move to act as pseudo-Fleet if necessary.
Grade: B (as a force multiplier) | C (as a gunship)
Hive Crone:
Spoiler:
Unlike its cousin, the Hive Crone is strictly designed as an offense unit. While the Hive Crone sports an impressive arsenal that covers most unit types as viable targets, it is primarily an anti-air and anti-infantry specialist thanks the nerfs to the Vector Strike rule against ground targets in 7th edition.
In competitive play, the Hive Crone’s main function is that of a toolbox unit. Due to its diverse selection of weaponry combined with mobility, the Hive Crone can be used to fill gaps that emerge in a player’s offensive arsenal turn by turn - ranging from rooting entrenched troops out of cover with its templates strike to anti-heavy armor with Tentaclids and Vector Strike. It also serves excellently as an interceptor, being able to enter ongoing reserves in order to ambush enemy fliers arriving from reserves without sacrificing synapse coverage.
The Crone shares most of the weaknesses of the Harpy, but with the added concern of its Instinctive Behavior disabling its guns if it should fail (Ld 10 makes this fairly unlikely, but still something to keep in mind). With the onset of 7th, the Crone lost much of its ability against light ground vehicles, since it lacks the quantity of attacks needed to wipe out such a target on its own in one pass. Likewise, it also lost much of its capability against heavy infantry (and to a lesser extent ground-based monstrous creatures).
Unique Special Rules:
- Raking Strike: Upgrades the Hive Crone’s Vector Strike to S8 rather than the base S5 of the creature, making it far more dangerous against other monstrous creatures, able to hurt vehicles up to AV13, and adding the ability to double out T4 models. Simple, but effective.
Biomorphs:
- Scything Talons (stock): Like the Harpy, the Hive Crone has no other melee weapons to pair them with and the AP6 from the talons is overruled by the Smash rule.
- Drool Cannon (stock): Effectively a short-barreled version of the Tyrannofex’s Acid Spray, virtually identical apart from the lack of the Torrent rule. With the Crone being prone to vector striking things, the lack of Torrent isn't too big of an issue as it will generally be in range of something anyway.
- Tentaclids (4x stock): One-shot S5 Ap5 Haywire missiles that can reroll failed to hit rolls against aircraft. Due to the Crone’s mediocre ballistic skill, these are generally best reserved for finishing off enemy aircraft between vector strike attack runs. If no aircraft are available, they can be used to help soften up AV13+ vehicles, though again their accuracy is greatly reduced.
- Stinger Salvo: A bit more palatable on the Hive Crone, worth considering as a back-up gun for once it has used all of its Tentaclids. Not a must have, but an okay place to spend the last couple points in a list.
- Cluster Spines: Similar to the above, but limited to strictly anti-infantry due to its nature as a blast. Since the Crone already has its excellent template weapon, the Salvo is probably a bit more ideal for it (not to mention it is cheaper).
- Acid Blood: Seeing as the Crone has no reason to ever leave Swooping-mode…
-Regeneration: While flying monsters are in a good position to take advantage of Regeneration, it is extremely expensive for what it does and once the Crone has expended its Tentaclids it looses most of its perceived threat value.
- Toxin Sacs: See Acid Blood. If the Crone is in combat, either something went terribly wrong or you are winning anyway.
- Adrenal Glands: Same as above.
Grade: B
Added, and thanks!
jifel wrote: Go ahead and sign me up to review the Tyrannofex!
Side note: Current rumors are that the new Broodlord character will provide Stealth and Preferred enemy to his squad... What do you guys think that will do for Genestealers? I see it being potentially very very useful, I'm probably even going to play test a big 20 unit with the Spawn!
You got it, jifel!
That would make them better for sure. As long as you can put enough threats right up there with the BL+stealers, then they have the potential to really smash face. I see them working well with a Tyranid MC in a tyrannocyte.
2014/12/03 18:52:21
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
I thought the rules said you can only take a LOW from your primary detachment?
jy2 wrote: I'm not too concerned about the new bases. The majority will win out so all the current bases should be good. Besides, GW used to have a policy that you could always use the bases included with the models. I wouldn't even sweat it. Current bases should be good at tournaments for a while.
Lets hear some anecdotes of Sonic Screech actually working in game. The only time I've had it help me out was when a harpy got grounded next to an imperial Knight, and It chraged in with some carnifexes. The Imperial Knight Killed both Carnifexes but on the 3rd round of combat the Harpy took it out then died in the explosion. That is the only time I've ever seen it have an actual effect, and I've run Harpies alot.
Strat_N8 wrote: -Regeneration: While flying monsters are in a good position to take advantage of Regeneration, it is extremely expensive for what it does and once the Crone has expended its Tentaclids it looses most of its perceived threat value.
Same question, has anybody ever actually taken regen on a Harpy or Crone and Regened a wound. I've never taken it because it doesn't really make sense to. Regen gets you back one wound if you are lucky, and the cost per wound of a Harpy is 27 points, so regen is a bad bargain. Crone is 31 so makes a tiny bit more sense. Also hapries and crones can't wound themselves via perils, nor are they likely to be targetted by the opponent alpha strike.
Agreed. I, for one, have never used nor seen anyone use the harpy's Sonic Screech effectively.
However, this may change. Whereas before, tyranids were somewhat pathetic in Assault, with the dimachaeron, the skytyrant formation and possibly the new BL+genestealer formation, Tyranids are becoming viable once again as an assault army. With the changing meta, Sonic Screech may become a little better and dare I say, maybe more than just an afterthought?
Regen for harpies/hive crones, on the other hand, just doesn't make any sense to me. If you want to get Regen, put it on some of your best units (i.e. the flyrant, any 6W TMC) instead.
Strat_N8 wrote: Unlike its cousin, the Hive Crone is strictly designed as an offense unit. While the Hive Crone sports an impressive arsenal that covers most unit types as viable targets, it is primarily an anti-air specialist thanks the nerfs to the Vector Strike rule against ground targets in 7th edition coupled with its missiles’ inaccuracy against ground targets.
My Crones almost never do any anti-air. They vector strike a vehicle or elite infantry, and then lay a flamer down on infantry in cover. The flamer does the lion-share of the damage. With the Crone's mobility you can often maneuver to get multiple units with the flamer. Also 19 out 20 Tentaclids get shot at ground targets. I'm usually taking out flyer with flyrants or vector strike, and the Flame template is more important than a single glance to a flyrant, and so I generally forgo tentaclids in the late game when fliers are on the board.
This really depends on your meta. In competitive tournament play, I see a lot (and I mean, a lot!) of flyers/FMC's, especially at the larger tournaments - the GT's. So while you may not use him much for AA in your local meta, I actually see him as more useful in tournament play, where he becomes both a AA threat as well as a threat to infantry with his flamer.
Leth wrote: I thought the rules said you can only take a LOW from your primary detachment?
Spoiler:
jy2 wrote: I'm not too concerned about the new bases. The majority will win out so all the current bases should be good. Besides, GW used to have a policy that you could always use the bases included with the models. I wouldn't even sweat it. Current bases should be good at tournaments for a while.
Yes you can. Both Primary detachment and the Leviathan detachment can take a Lords of War.
The Leviathan formation allows you to take a LoW, just like the Grey Knight Nemesis Strike Force formation allows you to take a LoW.
So in a Primary + Leviathan build, you can actually take 2 LoW's! So 5 flyrants and 2 Barbed Hierodules (something you can actually fit in at 2500-pts)....is that crazy or what!
tetrisphreak wrote: Our weekly casual league is tonight, here's the list i'm going with for a laugh:
CAD
HQ - OOE (In a Tyrannocyte)
TP - Mucolid x1
TP - Mucolid x1
EL - Malanthrope x1
EL - Malanthrope x1
HV - Dakkafex x2
HV- Carnifex w ScyTals & AG x3
HV- Carnifex w CClaws & AG x2
Total - 1500 points
8 carnifexes and 2 malanthropes. Just because i have the models and i figured, why not. haha.
That is mean. OOE is going to be awreckingball in that list. Dakkafex hold midfeild covering the Mals, Crushers and and stock fex charge in head long, with OOE coming in round 3 as a finishing blow.
So I faced a mechanized Astra militarum list. He had a tank commander in a battle tank and a vanquisher bodyguard, 3 chimeras with vets, a solo Russ battle tank, a wyvern, and 3 basilisks. The game started in my favor with vanguard strike and I won 1st turn along with night fight.
Turn 3 my fexes reached his line of tanks and obliterated his HQ unit easily. I had destroyed a chimera with devourers the turn before and hadn't yet lost any fexes due to shrouded and ruins saves. He was demoralized seeing 7 carnifexes in his DZ with 1 more on the way via pod. (OOE Failed all his reserve rolls). At the end of turn 3 he flat conceded. Crushing victory to hive fleet Tigris!
For some reason, almost every report I see between Tyranids and AM, it's usually bugs that come out on top. Hmmmm....curious indeed.
In any case, well played (and probably even better dice-played ).
Iechine wrote: Had a 6k game yesterday at Dropzone games, my forces vs a chaos detachment and Grey Knights as well. Turn three about 2k of Ravenwing bikes showed up.
Tyranids dominated throughout, they had almost no anti air and I had venomthropes and malanthrope working overtime. Although we called it at turn 3 because we are old and sleepy, it was a lot of fun. My Warrior deathstar fought a massive blob of Raptors and won, my Heirophant Bio torrented a massive group of bikes and then assaulted, killing about 900pts work of bikes in one turn.
My two Carnifexes both epically charged and tackled down a Dreadknight. Bugs actually lost very little in forces, maybe 1000pts worth despite being severely overmatched points wise.
In large-scale games, if opponents don't bring the D, then Tyranids can be really tough to play against, especially when you are bringing a unit like the Hierophant.
Well played!
BTW, I am loving all of these success stories with bugs!
1) I will use 2 Harpy/Hive Crone boxes and 1 Trygon box.
2) I will use the 2 harpy bodies (1 will have tail cut off) back to back for a longer body.
3) Trygon Torso for the "Neck" and Head (he trygon without the tail part, I will also Use that tail + some other bits and make a cool Deamon Prince later, I have a CSM army that I want a Deamon alies for)
4) I will cut 1 set of wings a bit and shape the other set, to make 2 Large wigns
http://i.imgur.com/mNZJXni.png < Pic of paint (Im not good with Paint) The GREEN in the Pic will be Green stuff (I'd imagine I will need it there).
Each wing will be 4x8 ", The Tail to Head will be 12" (1 foot), Full model with Wings will be about 13x14"
Have fun! And please show off your converted Harridan when you are done.
Eldercaveman wrote: I'm going to be giving this list a run out on Thursday against a former GT winner, and his nasty Eldar, so should be a good test!
That's nasty. Though with all of those reserves, you might want to consider a way to bring them in more reliably.
Let us know how you do!
luke1705 wrote: Nice batrep Wilson. Confirmed for me what I've already been thinking about Flyrants - it is so dangerous to cast heavy duty psychic powers while flying. One perils, a grounding check later and you've lost half of your wounds probably (although one time I did cast Catalyst, then pass FNP so I never perilsed in the first place haha).
On an odd note that may have a place in YMDC, when exactly does your opponent declare if he is jinking or not? Warp lance may have some extra utility there if he has to declare before you declare how many dice you're throwing at the attempt to manifest. If he jinks, you throw 2 or even just 1 die. If not, you can then proceed to try harder.
Finally, my random "I can't believe this adds up to 1850/Leviathan may actually be broken" list of the day:
Spoiler:
Flyrant w/Devs & EGrubs
Lictor
Lictor
Lictor
Mucolid
Mucolid
Mucolid
Mawloc
Mawloc
Mawloc
Flyrant w/Devs & EGrubs
Lictor
Lictor
Lictor
Rippers w/Deep Strike
Rippers w/Deep Strike
Mawloc
Mawloc
Mawloc
Bastion w/Comms
The lack of synapse is offset somewhat by leviathan's re-roll benefit, and I do like the 1:1 Lictor:Mawloc ratio haha...
Interesting concept. If you ever try it out, would love to hear how it went.
tag8833 wrote: I tried out Skytyrant formation today against Tau.
Skytyrant was built like this:
Tyrant (Wings, Reaper of Obliterax, Rending Claws, E.Grubs)
10 Gargoyles
10 Gargoyles
My opponent wasn't really up to facing my list, and so I moved the formation out into the open rather than into a nice set of ruins on turn 2, and his entire army shot into it. I lost 16 gargoyles. On my turn 2, I tried to charge Farsight + 4 gun Drones + 3 Suites. After tau overwatch I lost all 4 remaining gargoyles, and took 3 wounds on the flyrant, and then failed a 7" charge.
Still, it occupied my opponents entire army for 2 turns, and my 8 raveners ran amok. Killed a riptide turn 2. Killed Fire Warriors turn 3. Killed more fire warriors turn 4. Killed a Devil Fish turn 5. My Exocrine + Dakkafex killed the suites once the formation failed, and my dakkaflyrant was able to safely kill lots and lots of suites thanks to the Skytyrant drawing all of the fire for 2 turns, and the Raveners dealing with all of the anti-air.
I also had 10 Hormagants that killed 6 pathfinders and then 12 Fire Warriors.
In my game with the Skytyrant, I ran this:
Flyrant - 1x Devourers, Reaper, AG, TS
2x20 Gargoyles
Unfortunately, I got charged by my opponent's GUO w/Balesword (and Warp Speed) and he challenged out my Uber-CC-rant, so I couldn't LOS my wounds. Fortunately, I attacked first (I8 vs his I7 ). I then hit 3 times and wounded all 3 times (S7 with Shred). More importantly, I rolled 1 to wound!
Then the GUO fails both normal saves but passes his Insta-death save and proceeded to insta-kill my 295-pt flyrant.
Anyways, battle report should be coming out tonight.
tag8833 wrote: I tried out Skytyrant formation today against Tau.
Spoiler:
Skytyrant was built like this:
Tyrant (Wings, Reaper of Obliterax, Rending Claws, E.Grubs)
10 Gargoyles
10 Gargoyles
My opponent wasn't really up to facing my list, and so I moved the formation out into the open rather than into a nice set of ruins on turn 2, and his entire army shot into it. I lost 16 gargoyles. On my turn 2, I tried to charge Farsight + 4 gun Drones + 3 Suites. After tau overwatch I lost all 4 remaining gargoyles, and took 3 wounds on the flyrant, and then failed a 7" charge.
Still, it occupied my opponents entire army for 2 turns, and my 8 raveners ran amok. Killed a riptide turn 2. Killed Fire Warriors turn 3. Killed more fire warriors turn 4. Killed a Devil Fish turn 5. My Exocrine + Dakkafex killed the suites once the formation failed, and my dakkaflyrant was able to safely kill lots and lots of suites thanks to the Skytyrant drawing all of the fire for 2 turns, and the Raveners dealing with all of the anti-air.
I also had 10 Hormagants that killed 6 pathfinders and then 12 Fire Warriors.
Sounds like you dominated pretty well. I love raveners, by the way - i'm glad to see other folks are using them too.
All that being said -- I'd never play it easy on a tau player with Nids. That's like a worm taking it easy on a sparrow.
Yeah, raveners are great! Traditionally, they have done well for me as well. That is because they aren't as high-profile as some of the other units in the army and most of my opponents under-estimate their damage potential as well as their speed when facing them.
And yeah, hearing the crunching of Space Communist bones is such sweet music to my Tyranid ears.
This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2014/12/03 19:42:03
2014/12/04 01:15:25
Subject: The Strengths of the NEW Tyranids - Foundation for Competitive Tyranids (Tyranid Update List p.240)
Yeah the 6 Mawloc list is something that I do want to try out just to see how it goes. To be honest, I wonder if 6 lictors is too few, since they are basically the army's lynchpin and not unkillable by any means.
By the way, totally unrelated, but thought tou guys might be interested to hear:
I emailed Forge World a couple weeks back (before this whole Tyrannocyte hype) about the rules change to the super heavy walkers that GW put out. Being a sneaky Tyranid player, I used that as a veil to ask them about how GMC move through cover, as there really is no difference between them and regular monstrous creatures (congrats GW). What they said was that they do the standard move through cover roll (3d6) but drop the lowest and SUM the two highest dice, so they still could move 12" (although it's the same odds of perils on 3d6) but hey you're always going to get more movement than you would using the BRB rule set, so I'm fine with it. Interesting third take
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/12/04 02:39:18
! Ok, need to make my LD10, no prob. I then roll 
, 
.....Bay Area Open GT 2013 - Best Tyranids 
.....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals
15k+
Emperor's Spears 2500
Beastmen 10k
Fearsomely well done! 
10k+
(building)
