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barnowl wrote:


Don't you mean 9 shrikes? Still your point stands.

30 pts each, I think it's 10 right?

 SHUPPET wrote:

barnowl wrote:


Don't you mean 9 shrikes? Still your point stands.

30 pts each, I think it's 10 right?

It would be if the max unit size wasn't 9

Anyway thanks guys, I'll mathhammer each suggestion out and see what is likely to beat Lychguard

Aha! Of course, I thought I was ten for some reason! Well, I would spend the extra 30 pts on 6 Deathspitters!

Actually I think gargoyles might win in the long run. They get the charge for sure, get 30 shots on the way in and can blind them (which is just going to work. I mean, I 2).

I would also be interested to see what a 300 point squad of lictors could do. Easy wounds, a bucket of attacks, more likely to get the charge and with hit and run, they're probably hopping out, charging again and getting more shots in every other phase. Plus multiple wounds increase effectiveness since each model lasts longer.

Wait, I just checked you would need two squads. Max squad size OP. I think Mathhammer is on the side of the lictors if your store will let you field 6 of them. Plus, you never can have too much #Lictorshame

luke1705 wrote:
Actually I think gargoyles might win in the long run. They get the charge for sure, get 30 shots on the way in and can blind them (which is just going to work. I mean, I 2).

I would also be interested to see what a 300 point squad of lictors could do. Easy wounds, a bucket of attacks, more likely to get the charge and with hit and run, they're probably hopping out, charging again and getting more shots in every other phase. Plus multiple wounds increase effectiveness since each model lasts longer.

Wait, I just checked you would need two squads. Max squad size OP. I think Mathhammer is on the side of the lictors if your store will let you field 6 of them. Plus, you never can have too much #Lictorshame

If six, then you a forrest Brood. Can't recall offhand if that is a formation or a Unit.

luke1705 wrote:
Actually I think gargoyles might win in the long run. They get the charge for sure, get 30 shots on the way in and can blind them (which is just going to work. I mean, I 2).

I would also be interested to see what a 300 point squad of lictors could do. Easy wounds, a bucket of attacks, more likely to get the charge and with hit and run, they're probably hopping out, charging again and getting more shots in every other phase. Plus multiple wounds increase effectiveness since each model lasts longer.

Wait, I just checked you would need two squads. Max squad size OP. I think Mathhammer is on the side of the lictors if your store will let you field 6 of them. Plus, you never can have too much #Lictorshame

Forest Brood? Doh! Deathleapered!

You know what's funny?

I see more people getting deathleaper'd on the forums than I do on the tabletop. LOL!

Any cut and dry standards you guys use for determining when to jink game turn 1 if your going 2nd and eating an alpha strike? (Assuming armor save of 3 and if you jink you get 2+ cover)

Right now for me I'm thinking...
If they have ignore cover but not AP3 or better I eat the shots
If they have ignore cover but AP3+ I jink
If they don't ignore cover I eat the shots unless I'm at 2 wounds or less or they can put in tons of wounds

 SHUPPET wrote:
Aha! Of course, I thought I was ten for some reason! Well, I would spend the extra 30 pts on 6 Deathspitters!

Toxin Sacs brings more bang for the buck. You get 1 possibly 2 rounds of shooting with deathspitters. Because only 25% of your shots wound and only 22% of wounds will kill deathspitters aren't going to help you much, the extra attack coming off of Scything Talons will be much more valuable, and wounding on 4's instead of 5's increases your damage output in close combat by 50%.

luke1705 wrote:
Actually I think gargoyles might win in the long run. They get the charge for sure, get 30 shots on the way in and can blind them (which is just going to work. I mean, I 2).

I would also be interested to see what a 300 point squad of lictors could do. Easy wounds, a bucket of attacks, more likely to get the charge and with hit and run, they're probably hopping out, charging again and getting more shots in every other phase. Plus multiple wounds increase effectiveness since each model lasts longer.

Wait, I just checked you would need two squads. Max squad size OP. I think Mathhammer is on the side of the lictors if your store will let you field 6 of them. Plus, you never can have too much #Lictorshame

Most likely result of Gargoyles is that they fail synapse and either run away or can't charge. If they make it into close combat they fail leadership and run away, and good luck regrouping with LD 6.

Lictors perform very similar to Shrikes, except far less survivable, because you can't take as many bodies. Because the Max squad size is 3, it doesn't work out. The lictor forrest brood gets you closer to comparable. 5 Lictors vs 9 Shrikes (with TS). Shrikes will have a much easier time making the charge. On the turns they charge shrikes will kill 3.33 Lychguard vs only 2.46 for the lictors. You will lose 1-2 lictors on that round of combat. Next round (if you don't run), you kill another lychguard, and lose another Lictor. Its a bad way to go. Lychguard win.

Because the difference between Lictors and Shrikes are minimal. Lictor's Wound on 3's, Shrikes with Toxin Sac's Wound on 4's, everything else is the same. Spending an extra 17 points per model is probably a bad way to go.

tag8833 wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:
Aha! Of course, I thought I was ten for some reason! Well, I would spend the extra 30 pts on 6 Deathspitters!

Toxin Sacs brings more bang for the buck. You get 1 possibly 2 rounds of shooting with deathspitters. Because only 25% of your shots wound and only 22% of wounds will kill deathspitters aren't going to help you much, the extra attack coming off of Scything Talons will be much more valuable, and wounding on 4's instead of 5's increases your damage output in close combat by 50%.

Whys only 2 rounds of shooting? You have perfect range dictation and they will need to make a 12" charge to catch you right... You want to delay combat as long as possible, as even off the CHARGE, you will likely kill just ONE Lychguard. TS is a good option too tho

That's actually a valid point. Any mobile shooty unit that the Lychguard can't catch will win. I think the point is to out-cc them instead of kiting them around though

luke1705 wrote:
That's actually a valid point. Any mobile shooty unit that the Lychguard can't catch will win. I think the point is to out-cc them instead of kiting them around though

Well I'm sure you have your board edge to play all the way back to at least, but yeah if you just want to out CC them you would be better off dropping a gun for ScyTals and taking TS. In fact it's probably a more reliable option in general Lychguard just can't beat it

 SHUPPET wrote:

luke1705 wrote:
That's actually a valid point. Any mobile shooty unit that the Lychguard can't catch will win. I think the point is to out-cc them instead of kiting them around though

Well I'm sure you have your board edge to play all the way back to at least, but yeah if you just want to out CC them you would be better off dropping a gun for ScyTals and taking TS. In fact it's probably a more reliable option in general Lychguard just can't beat it

So if we max at 300 points that means 6 Shrikes with Deathspitters and 3 with Devourers.

Doing only shooting, assuming you always get them all in range and don't have a board edge to run into that means it will take 7.5 turns to kill 10 of them.

Meanwhile if you take double Scything Talons, and toxin sacs and get the charge you will finish them in 5 rounds or about 2.5 game turns.

Using the shooting approach you will lose no models. If you charge them you lose 2 models, and take 4 additional wounds, but I still think it is the far superior approach.

Just putting Deathspittes on Shrikes doesn't make them a shooting unit. They aren't. They are an assaulty unit. To illustrate this point, 300 points of Devourer Gants put out more than 3 times the shooting damage to Lychguard as 300 points of Shrikes with Deathspitters. If Shrikes were T5 or had EW, they would be a top tier assault unit on par with anything that any other codex can produce.

We've never used limited game turns in a unit v unit brawl, as it often just ends in a draw without a single victory point. If we are game turning its a different matter, but other than that it's free damage and softens them up before combat which of course is inevitable. It's not a black and white thing mate, you CAN do both a bit of shooting and then finish up by capitalising on a good strong assault once you have the number advantage to secure it. That being said, I already said that TS Shrikes dedicated combat Shrikes are overrall the better unit so I'm not sure why you are arguing something I already said I agree with

Good news for all of the Tyranid Players going to LVO.

Thanks to the new GW FAQ, and LVO's interpretation, Farsight Bomb will no longer be able to infiltrate into easy alphastrike range on turn 1 via shadowsun.

Also, They won't be guaranteeing 2+ cover saves on 1st turn if we do get the alpha strike.

It is a substantial nerf to a relatively common Tau list that is generally a hard counter to a tyranid flying circus. I doubt we will win many of those games yet, because buffmander is still insanely powerful, and Shadow Sun still gives Drones a 2+ cover save, and riptides are still unkillable, but every little bit helps.

I'm breathing a sigh or relief, because there are plenty of times I've lost 2 flyrants or a Barbed Heirodule to infiltrating buffmander before I even get a turn. I've also spent dozens of games firing ineffectively into 2+ cover saves granted by Shadowsun (and terrian), and hoping for the best. At least now I get to move my models before picking them up off the table.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I've been rereading all of my rules in prep for LVO, and I noticed something in the Sporefield formation in the "Sporefield" rule.
"Victory points are awarded as normal for new units in this formation that have been completely destroyed."

All of the units in that formation are spore mines, and spore mines do not award victory points when destroyed. So I guess awarding them as normal, means not awarding them, right?

tag8833 wrote:
Good news for all of the Tyranid Players going to LVO.

Thanks to the new GW FAQ, and LVO's interpretation, Farsight Bomb will no longer be able to infiltrate into easy alphastrike range on turn 1 via shadowsun.

Also, They won't be guaranteeing 2+ cover saves on 1st turn if we do get the alpha strike.

It is a substantial nerf to a relatively common Tau list that is generally a hard counter to a tyranid flying circus. I doubt we will win many of those games yet, because buffmander is still insanely powerful, and Shadow Sun still gives Drones a 2+ cover save, and riptides are still unkillable, but every little bit helps.

I'm breathing a sigh or relief, because there are plenty of times I've lost 2 flyrants or a Barbed Heirodule to infiltrating buffmander before I even get a turn. I've also spent dozens of games firing ineffectively into 2+ cover saves granted by Shadowsun (and terrian), and hoping for the best. At least now I get to move my models before picking them up off the table.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I've been rereading all of my rules in prep for LVO, and I noticed something in the Sporefield formation in the "Sporefield" rule.
"Victory points are awarded as normal for new units in this formation that have been completely destroyed."

All of the units in that formation are spore mines, and spore mines do not award victory points when destroyed. So I guess awarding them as normal, means not awarding them, right?

I say, F Shadowsun!

As for the sporefield rule, that truly needs a FAQ, but I believe the majority of people who run it will play it as not awarding anything and I don't think the LVO judges will disagree.

BTW, good luck tag and come say hello if you see me.

yeah tag I wouldn't worry.. spore mines specifically say in their rules they give up no kill points or victory points of any kind. They don't score in any way.

 jy2 wrote:
I say, F Shadowsun!

Basically every game I've won against an army with Shadowsun and buffmander involved failing a LOS on something like a Vector Strike, and Shadowsun getting ID'd out. A few times it has been a failed 2+ LOS followed by a Failed 2+ Cover save against devourers,

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, good luck tag and come say hello if you see me.

Sure will.

I've worked hard to try to run a practice game against most common matchups. One matchup that I never considered because I've never seen anyone play it, but Frankie called it out in his article on tourney prep. Tyrannic War Vets formation with the 6 Storm Talons (Saint Tylus Battle Force). That is quite a bit of twin linked skyfire.

Is there a list built around that formation that I need to Fear when running my LVO Flying Circus list:


I figure I've got to Reserve my Crones, or keep them in range of the Malanthrope or both until the Storm Talons are reduced to 1 or 2. I probably Focus on the Storm Talons, and try to Jink them all between my Tyrants and Barbed Heirodule. Tyrants have a pretty good chance of killing 1 per turn, but I've had bad luck with this.

I can win the Dog Fight, but I should because I've got a time an a half the points in FMC's that they will have in Fliers, and so I'm somewhat worried about the other 1,000 points. I guess the more I think about it, the more the Storm Talons seem like less durable Wave Serpents. Is there something I'm missing here?

tag8833 wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
I say, F Shadowsun!

Basically every game I've won against an army with Shadowsun and buffmander involved failing a LOS on something like a Vector Strike, and Shadowsun getting ID'd out. A few times it has been a failed 2+ LOS followed by a Failed 2+ Cover save against devourers,

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, good luck tag and come say hello if you see me.

Sure will.

I've worked hard to try to run a practice game against most common matchups. One matchup that I never considered because I've never seen anyone play it, but Frankie called it out in his article on tourney prep. Tyrannic War Vets formation with the 6 Storm Talons (Saint Tylus Battle Force). That is quite a bit of twin linked skyfire.

Is there a list built around that formation that I need to Fear when running my LVO Flying Circus list:

Spoiler:

CAD:
Tyrant (Wings, E.Grubs, Fighter Ace, 2 TL-Devourers)
Tyrant (Wings, E.Grubs, 2 TL-Devourers)

Malanthrope

3 Rippers (DS)
3 Rippers (DS)

Crone
Crone

Barbed Heirodule

Ally:
Tyrant (Wings, E.Grubs, 2 TL-Devourers)

3 Rippers (DS)

I figure I've got to Reserve my Crones, or keep them in range of the Malanthrope or both until the Storm Talons are reduced to 1 or 2. I probably Focus on the Storm Talons, and try to Jink them all between my Tyrants and Barbed Heirodule. Tyrants have a pretty good chance of killing 1 per turn, but I've had bad luck with this.

I can win the Dog Fight, but I should because I've got a time an a half the points in FMC's that they will have in Fliers, and so I'm somewhat worried about the other 1,000 points. I guess the more I think about it, the more the Storm Talons seem like less durable Wave Serpents. Is there something I'm missing here?

The Tyrannic War Vets is a really good formation and I've played against it a number of times:

Tyrannic War Vets w/4-6 stormtalons + Centstar

Tyrannic War Vets w/4 stormtalons + Eldar w/Lynx

Tyrannic War Vets w/5 stormtalons + massed ObSec Space Marines

Tyrannic War Vets w/4 stormtalons + Adlance Knights

Tyrannic War Vets w/4-5 stormtalons + Leviathan triple flyrants (I want to do this!)


However, it does have 3 bad matchups. The 1st is the old Tesla-spam Necrons, which is no longer around (well, it'll be allowed for the LVO one more time but then it's truly over). The 2nd is another Tyrannic War Vet formation going 2nd. Lastly, you've got flyrant-spam Tyranids. 3 flyrants + 2 crones should give it problems, though 4 flyrants would have been better against it.

I wouldn't worry too much. Your army should be able to take it on.

How do you guys prioritize targets as Nids? Take out Skyfire targets first I'm assuming? (My list below)

Since our shooting caps around S6 and its heavily weighted, I'm assuming once Skyfire is down we try to take out their Obsec troops? Since we aren't heavy in Obsec I think it would give us a hard time, is this right?

I'm going to get my first game in this Friday and would just like to know how to generally play Nids with a list below. It's strengths, weaknesses etc. So I can focus how to reach my goals during my game.

Thanks!

Flyrant
Flyrant
Flyrant
Malanthrope
Mucolid
Mucolid
Mucolid
Dakkafex + Pod
Dakkafex + Pod

Flyrant
DS Rippers
DS Rippers
Bastion + Comms

 syypher wrote:
How do you guys prioritize targets as Nids? Take out Skyfire targets first I'm assuming? (My list below)

Since our shooting caps around S6 and its heavily weighted, I'm assuming once Skyfire is down we try to take out their Obsec troops? Since we aren't heavy in Obsec I think it would give us a hard time, is this right?

I'm going to get my first game in this Friday and would just like to know how to generally play Nids with a list below. It's strengths, weaknesses etc. So I can focus how to reach my goals during my game.

Thanks!

Flyrant
Flyrant
Flyrant
Malanthrope
Mucolid
Mucolid
Mucolid
Dakkafex + Pod
Dakkafex + Pod

Flyrant
DS Rippers
DS Rippers
Bastion + Comms

That's about right. Kill the threats to your flyrants and you will reign supreme in the air. Afterwards, I tend to go after my opponent's mobility. Whatever gets around or gets their troops from Point A to Point B. That means transports and anything that is fast or highly mobile. Prevent them from getting to the objectives and your own troops on objectives will be safe.

Finally, I tend to ignore what is too hard to kill (or too inefficient to kill) to go after easier prey. Forget about that invincible deathstar or your opponent's barbed hierodule and go after the rest of your opponent's much-easier-to-kill army.

 syypher wrote:
How do you guys prioritize targets as Nids? Take out Skyfire targets first I'm assuming? (My list below)

Since our shooting caps around S6 and its heavily weighted, I'm assuming once Skyfire is down we try to take out their Obsec troops? Since we aren't heavy in Obsec I think it would give us a hard time, is this right?

The answer won't be as simple as you hope for. The general rule is that, if playing eternal war with 1st blood, turn 1 you want to make sure you get 1st blood. then for the rest of turn 1-3 you want to shoot at whatever has the most potential to harm your army. With your list, Usually that will be skyfire, but sometimes it might be something with a potential to take out your bastion early. Turn 4-5 you want to focus on whatever in the enemy's army has the potential to score, which as JY said has more to do with mobility than OS status.

However, there is also a need to prioritize targets of opportunity. A skyfire burstide is terrifying, but shooting at it with devourers won't net you much. So it might be better to shoot at a relatively harmless Hammerhead that you can actually cause damage to. If you are facing AD Lance, you probably want to throw warp blasts (lance) at the Knights even if there are Wave Serpents or Fliers backing them. If you get a shot to Haywire a couple vehicles, you can take that rather than shooting up a dev squad with Flakk missiles. 1 Haywire template on a Anhillation Barge is usually not as appealing as 12 devourer shots into the rear of a Ghost Arc (actually, with the nerf to Tesla, Anhillation Barges aren't skyfire all-stars any more).

Keep your target priority in mind when moving as well - don't be like me and think "Shooting that superheavy won't do anything - I'll kill the infantry around it" and the move so that your flamers can't hit the infantry, but you could burn the hell out of the tank.

Thanks guys. Those are good general guide lines to keep in mind. appreciate it

List building for De La Warr open, 2k with no forgeworld and unlimited detachments.

One list that could be fun, using BAO missions.

Flyrant w/Devs
Flyrant w/Devs
Flyrant w/Devs
Mucolid
Mucolid
Mucolid

CAD:
Flyrant w/Devs
Swarmlord in Tyrannocyte
Venomthrope
Mucolid
Mucolid
Mawloc

Deathleaper's Assassin Brood

4 Tyrants in the air being a headache, unignorable Swarmlord threat with reserve bonus, Deathleaper being a headache, and 5 non scattering Lictors for scoring. Lots of flexibility, anyone see any flaws?

This has 40pts to spare

I also will be coming to Delawarr with Tyranids as well...don't really get unlimited detachments with no Forgeworld but whatever.

I would ditch Swarmlord in a pod, you don't have enough ground presence that he wont just be obliterated the moment he comes in. If you do want to stick with an assualt MC though, I'd swap him for a Dimachaeron as you get 99% of the effect for 85 points less. I would also HIGHLY recommend a bastion for the venomthrope...anything with ignores cover that so much as looks at him means SPLAT. Easy first blood and no more 2+ cover.

Just my .02

 Iechine wrote:
List building for De La Warr open, 2k with no forgeworld and unlimited detachments.

One list that could be fun, using BAO missions.

Spoiler:

Flyrant w/Devs
Flyrant w/Devs
Flyrant w/Devs
Mucolid
Mucolid
Mucolid

CAD:
Flyrant w/Devs
Swarmlord in Tyrannocyte
Venomthrope
Mucolid
Mucolid
Mawloc

Deathleaper's Assassin Brood

4 Tyrants in the air being a headache, unignorable Swarmlord threat with reserve bonus, Deathleaper being a headache, and 5 non scattering Lictors for scoring. Lots of flexibility, anyone see any flaws?

This has 40pts to spare

I don't like Swarmlord in this list. Sure you can't ignore him, but why would you, he is a better target than the fliers, and not very hard to kill. If you swap him for a Dakkafex or TFex you could take 5 points and get yourself a 2nd Venom (1 dies too easily). Then look at scoring. 5 lictors, a Tyrannocyte, and Deathleaper isn't enough. Swap all of the mucolids in the CAD for Rippers. Then add more Lictors.

Without Forgeworld it is going to be a real challenge to Win BAO missions. Your Venoms will be surrendering 1st blood in lots of games.

Also Argh, CAD + Leviathan + Formation. Doesn't it feel like most games will be decided before dice are rolled?

ETA. Bastion is probably a good idea. Didn't people complain about terrain at last DelaWARR? The Dima suggestion is good too, however it is forgeworld.

Totally spaced on the Dima being FW, so used to it just being part of the arsenal. I'd also be wary of too many Lictors and Rippers in the list, kill points will roll around at some point as well as maelstrom cards for killing units.

Best part of Tag's list advice - "and then, once you've done all of that, add more lictors" (paraphrased). I can get behind that haha.

Definitely want some obsec in your normal cad. I also think a Dakkafex in a pod would be much better. Shooty and (sadly) a better assault threat vs vehicles.

Depending on the terrain, I might go VSG in lieu of a bastion if that is permitted

Has anyone fiddled around with starting a Mawloc on the field on T1, burrowing T2 and getting a guaranteed strike on T3?

If you place it in cover (and with Shrouding) but also somewhere tempting then it might draw a bit of fire (and with its resilience it does take a fair bit to put down) for a turn or two from an opponent who would rather get rid of it than let it strike at will later. It doesn't matter if it has 6W or 1W when it starts digging, so it could be a means of having an opponent split their fire and perhaps prolong a Tyrant's life a bit?

The trade-off of course is that you lose the chance of a T2 strike (but you do also take the randomness of Reserves rolls out of the picture entirely so... more reliable but a little slower to start?).