Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Thats sort of what I mean. A good thought experiment for an Overlord Swarm is a Knight Lance.

At 1500 Points, you have 4 knights stick 2 Hierodules (because they're 65 points too sodding expensive to field a third!).

Now, in a shooting match, they can probably handle them - or at least put up a good fight - the knights' battlecannons land two hits each, half wound, and if you're in cover slightly less than half of that gets through save and feel no pain for about two wounds. The bugs land six hits each, four damage and two through the ion shields, for a total of four - which works out equal with twelve wounds to twenty-four hull points.

It's slightly in the bugs favour in reality - the knights can miss with a really bad scatter, 5+ cover and feel no pain combined is actually a touch better than a 4+ ion shield, any errants only get one shot not two, and if you can spread out and catch side armour and/or an unshielded facing your damage goes up massively. This is all irrelevant, however, because by turn 2-3 the knights charge and you get ginsu-sliced by reaper chainswords because you're massively outclassed in mêlée.

A field of spore mines can block the knights for another turn or two and keep it as a shooting match I can win. Hell, 5-6 strong clusters might even take the odd hull point off in the process!

locarno24 wrote:
Thats sort of what I mean. A good thought experiment for an Overlord Swarm is a Knight Lance.

At 1500 Points, you have 4 knights stick 2 Hierodules (because they're 65 points too sodding expensive to field a third!).

Now, in a shooting match, they can probably handle them - or at least put up a good fight - the knights' battlecannons land two hits each, half wound, and if you're in cover slightly less than half of that gets through save and feel no pain for about two wounds. The bugs land six hits each, four damage and two through the ion shields, for a total of four - which works out equal with twelve wounds to twenty-four hull points.

It's slightly in the bugs favour in reality - the knights can miss with a really bad scatter, 5+ cover and feel no pain combined is actually a touch better than a 4+ ion shield, any errants only get one shot not two, and if you can spread out and catch side armour and/or an unshielded facing your damage goes up massively. This is all irrelevant, however, because by turn 2-3 the knights charge and you get ginsu-sliced by reaper chainswords because you're massively outclassed in mêlée.

A field of spore mines can block the knights for another turn or two and keep it as a shooting match I can win. Hell, 5-6 strong clusters might even take the odd hull point off in the process!

It gets even worse if the knight player is running Adamantine Lance formation + 1 extra knight.

However, the prudent bug player will park his hierodule completely in terrain so he would at least get the first swing in Assault before getting ginsu'd.

Lance I don't mind so much; If you're staying close enough together to get the adamantium lance's benefit, it's nigh impossible to get up the board towards one hierodule without flashing your side or rear armour at the other one, and a pair of biocannon has a not unreasonable chance of gutting a knight in a single volley

Hello my fellow bug players.

I'm considering entering an upcoming Highlander tournament in my area, and am wondering if I'm on the right track with my list.
Now, a little addition, in my area Highlander tournaments also impose the 'highlander' rule on dedicated transports, so only one Wave Serpent or Rhino for example.
The tournament will be 1850 points, 3 'sources' allowed, Forge World allowed, 1 LoW of less than 400 points allowed.

I was toying with the list below, any opinions on whether it will stand any chance?

Detachment 1: Combined Arms
* Flyrant, double devourers, electroshock grubs

* 3 Ripper Swarms, Deep Strike
* 1 Mucolid Spore Cluster

* Malanthrope
* 3 Hive Guard
* Zoanthrope

* Hive Crone

* Carnifex, double devourers
* Mawloc
* Tyrranofex, acid spray, electroshock grubs

* Tyrranocyte, 5 Barbed Stranglers
* Aegis Defense Line, Comms Relay, Quad Gun

Detachment 2: Living Artillery Node
* 3 Tyranid Warriors, 2x Scything Talons, Barbed Strangler
* 3 Biovores
* 1 Exocrine

Now, some questions:
* Can a model shoot the Quad Gun even if it normally doesn't have a gun (was thinking to park the Malanthrope or Zoanthrope there)?
* Will a Flyrant and Hive Crone be sufficiently covered by the height of an Aegis Defense Line to claim the 4+ cover (my ADL model still has to arrive, so can't check yet). You need 25% obscurement right?

Any feedback welcome!

As long as the model has a BS it can use the quad gun I'm pretty sure.

Polkadragon wrote:
Hello my fellow bug players.

I'm considering entering an upcoming Highlander tournament in my area, and am wondering if I'm on the right track with my list.
Now, a little addition, in my area Highlander tournaments also impose the 'highlander' rule on dedicated transports, so only one Wave Serpent or Rhino for example.
The tournament will be 1850 points, 3 'sources' allowed, Forge World allowed, 1 LoW of less than 400 points allowed.

I was toying with the list below, any opinions on whether it will stand any chance?

Detachment 1: Combined Arms
* Flyrant, double devourers, electroshock grubs

* 3 Ripper Swarms, Deep Strike
* 1 Mucolid Spore Cluster

* Malanthrope
* 3 Hive Guard
* Zoanthrope

* Hive Crone

* Carnifex, double devourers
* Mawloc
* Tyrranofex, acid spray, electroshock grubs

* Tyrranocyte, 5 Barbed Stranglers
* Aegis Defense Line, Comms Relay, Quad Gun

Detachment 2: Living Artillery Node
* 3 Tyranid Warriors, 2x Scything Talons, Barbed Strangler
* 3 Biovores
* 1 Exocrine

Now, some questions:
* Can a model shoot the Quad Gun even if it normally doesn't have a gun (was thinking to park the Malanthrope or Zoanthrope there)?
* Will a Flyrant and Hive Crone be sufficiently covered by the height of an Aegis Defense Line to claim the 4+ cover (my ADL model still has to arrive, so can't check yet). You need 25% obscurement right?

Any feedback welcome!

What are the rulings on Tervigons? Are you allowed to spawn more than one brood of Termagaunts? Cos if so I say take one, I used one in my highlander tourney where I couldn't and it still proved fairly useful (with CCs, so decent in melee).

I'd also consider a Harpy solely because people tend not to bring much AA in Highlander (potentially over the Hive Guard I guess?). The upgraded guns on the T-Cyte are also quite nice in this format, massed Str6 does well.

I would say that an Aegis will no way give a save to a Harpy/Crone, likely not to a Flyrant even if you model it standing. I'd just take a Bunker/Bastion instead - you can stick the Malanthrope inside to protect it, and anything on the battlements will get a 2+ cover. Otherwise, stick the Malanthrope in ruins/terrain and put the fliers nearby. If you add an escape hatch to the bunker, you can catapult the Malanthrope forward to buff your fliers as they advance/protect whatever comes out of the pod - then put the Biovores inside to protect them. However, you canot iirc take both a Quadgun and a Comms on the same piece of terrain, so you might wanna look at that.

A Hive Tyrant will receive cover from an Aegies if he is "on his feet" not on his tail in the flying pose. The Crone never will. Your list is fairly solid for a highlander format, but Benlisted is correct that you can't take both a quad-gun and a comma relay. I really don't think you need the quad, however. If you do, however, then itau be fired by any model.

Benlisted wrote:

Polkadragon wrote:
Hello my fellow bug players.

Detachment 1: Combined Arms
* Flyrant, double devourers, electroshock grubs

* 3 Ripper Swarms, Deep Strike
* 1 Mucolid Spore Cluster

* Malanthrope
* 3 Hive Guard
* Zoanthrope

* Hive Crone

* Carnifex, double devourers
* Mawloc
* Tyrranofex, acid spray, electroshock grubs

* Tyrranocyte, 5 Barbed Stranglers
* Aegis Defense Line, Comms Relay, Quad Gun

Detachment 2: Living Artillery Node
* 3 Tyranid Warriors, 2x Scything Talons, Barbed Strangler
* 3 Biovores
* 1 Exocrine

Now, some questions:
* Can a model shoot the Quad Gun even if it normally doesn't have a gun (was thinking to park the Malanthrope or Zoanthrope there)?
* Will a Flyrant and Hive Crone be sufficiently covered by the height of an Aegis Defense Line to claim the 4+ cover (my ADL model still has to arrive, so can't check yet). You need 25% obscurement right?

Any feedback welcome!

What are the rulings on Tervigons? Are you allowed to spawn more than one brood of Termagaunts? Cos if so I say take one, I used one in my highlander tourney where I couldn't and it still proved fairly useful (with CCs, so decent in melee).
I'd also consider a Harpy solely because people tend not to bring much AA in Highlander (potentially over the Hive Guard I guess?). The upgraded guns on the T-Cyte are also quite nice in this format, massed Str6 does well.

Only units that produce troops are allowed, so Tervigons function normally. They are limited to a maximum of three though, but if I get three spawns with a Tervigon, I generally consider myself lucky

I was tempted to include a Harpy as well, but with the amount of cover saves shenanigans that most armies can bring, Hive Guard seem more solid to me.

I didn't know you could only have one 'add-on' to an Aegis, I'll remove the Quad Gun, since I should have plenty of AA anyway.

The one thing I'm still a bit leery about is the WraithKnight. I'm debating taking a unit of Shrikes just for him, but they are so damn expensive, I'm not sure it's worth the price :|

Polkadragon wrote:
Only units that produce troops are allowed, so Tervigons function normally. They are limited to a maximum of three though, but if I get three spawns with a Tervigon, I generally consider myself lucky

I was tempted to include a Harpy as well, but with the amount of cover saves shenanigans that most armies can bring, Hive Guard seem more solid to me.

I didn't know you could only have one 'add-on' to an Aegis, I'll remove the Quad Gun, since I should have plenty of AA anyway.

The one thing I'm still a bit leery about is the WraithKnight. I'm debating taking a unit of Shrikes just for him, but they are so damn expensive, I'm not sure it's worth the price :|

Genestealers are your best bet against the WK. They will keep him away and as long as you put the leading stealers in ruins and trail them back to your malanthrope/venomthrope, then they become quite survivable.

The other option would be to run the Dimachaeron.

zerosignal wrote:I need malanthropes. Anyone have a good guide to how to kitbash them from commonly-available (read: ebay) bits and pieces?

I converted one out of a flyrant kit, got the idea from this.

http://monkeychuka.blogspot.com/2014/08/malanthrope-conversion.html

 jy2 wrote:

Polkadragon wrote:
Only units that produce troops are allowed, so Tervigons function normally. They are limited to a maximum of three though, but if I get three spawns with a Tervigon, I generally consider myself lucky

I was tempted to include a Harpy as well, but with the amount of cover saves shenanigans that most armies can bring, Hive Guard seem more solid to me.

I didn't know you could only have one 'add-on' to an Aegis, I'll remove the Quad Gun, since I should have plenty of AA anyway.

The one thing I'm still a bit leery about is the WraithKnight. I'm debating taking a unit of Shrikes just for him, but they are so damn expensive, I'm not sure it's worth the price :|

Genestealers are your best bet against the WK. They will keep him away and as long as you put the leading stealers in ruins and trail them back to your malanthrope/venomthrope, then they become quite survivable.

The other option would be to run the Dimachaeron.

Based on this, I did some Excel mathhammering to figure out which combination of Genestealers (with or without biomorphs and Broodlord) would be best to handle a Wraithknight.

Here are the results (assumed they get the charge at full strength):

- yeah never mind math is wrong - boy do genestealers suck now

I think your maths is wrong. Gargantuans only suffer Poisoned hits on a 6, which Rending Claws cover already, but at AP2.

Polkadragon wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

Polkadragon wrote:
Only units that produce troops are allowed, so Tervigons function normally. They are limited to a maximum of three though, but if I get three spawns with a Tervigon, I generally consider myself lucky

I was tempted to include a Harpy as well, but with the amount of cover saves shenanigans that most armies can bring, Hive Guard seem more solid to me.

I didn't know you could only have one 'add-on' to an Aegis, I'll remove the Quad Gun, since I should have plenty of AA anyway.

The one thing I'm still a bit leery about is the WraithKnight. I'm debating taking a unit of Shrikes just for him, but they are so damn expensive, I'm not sure it's worth the price :|

Genestealers are your best bet against the WK. They will keep him away and as long as you put the leading stealers in ruins and trail them back to your malanthrope/venomthrope, then they become quite survivable.

The other option would be to run the Dimachaeron.

Based on this, I did some Excel mathhammering to figure out which combination of Genestealers (with or without biomorphs and Broodlord) would be best to handle a Wraithknight.

Here are the results (assumed they get the charge at full strength):



So, conclusions, leave your Broodlords at home and invest in Toxin Sacs
Scything Talons are not strictly needed, but give you some extra safety.

Besides Poison only wounding gargants on 6's, did you also account for FNP on the WK?

 jy2 wrote:

Polkadragon wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

Polkadragon wrote:
Only units that produce troops are allowed, so Tervigons function normally. They are limited to a maximum of three though, but if I get three spawns with a Tervigon, I generally consider myself lucky

I was tempted to include a Harpy as well, but with the amount of cover saves shenanigans that most armies can bring, Hive Guard seem more solid to me.

I didn't know you could only have one 'add-on' to an Aegis, I'll remove the Quad Gun, since I should have plenty of AA anyway.

The one thing I'm still a bit leery about is the WraithKnight. I'm debating taking a unit of Shrikes just for him, but they are so damn expensive, I'm not sure it's worth the price :|

Genestealers are your best bet against the WK. They will keep him away and as long as you put the leading stealers in ruins and trail them back to your malanthrope/venomthrope, then they become quite survivable.

The other option would be to run the Dimachaeron.

Based on this, I did some Excel mathhammering to figure out which combination of Genestealers (with or without biomorphs and Broodlord) would be best to handle a Wraithknight.

Here are the results (assumed they get the charge at full strength):



So, conclusions, leave your Broodlords at home and invest in Toxin Sacs
Scything Talons are not strictly needed, but give you some extra safety.

Besides Poison only wounding gargants on 6's, did you also account for FNP on the WK?

No, FNP was not included.

You guys are right, the math is wrong, I also included a reroll to wound because of the toxin sacs, but that's only on equal st vs toughness :(
I'll recalculate the results.

Thanks for the feedback!

Polkadragon wrote:
You guys are right, the math is wrong, I also included a reroll to wound because of the toxin sacs, but that's only on equal st vs toughness :(
I'll recalculate the results.

That got nerfed on 7th, it has to be S>T not anymore for S=T (not that that would've make a difference here)

I am also interested in dakka'a thoughts on nid highlander. Seems tough for the nids wondering what people think. I feel broods of dakkafex could be useful and the dimacharon seems promising. Also tervigon seems like a no brainer due to spawning

Yeah ok, having redone the math and factored in FNP and the uselessness of Toxin Sacs vs Gargantuans, the picture is suddenly not so shiny anymore.
This just in, Genestealers suck (and I'm the last to realise it )



Skycapt44, I don't necessarily agree with you that Highlander is tough on the Nids. On the contrary, I feel it solves a number of problems that 'regular' Nids have, by prohibiting spamming units such as Wave Serpents, Scat Bikes, etc. Granted, you can 't go 'Codex Flyrant' as well, but I find that to be a refreshing change, which makes room for a more balanced list.

Based on the remarks I've received so far, I'll retweak the list to include a Tervigon, and put some Venom Cannons on the Tyrranocyte. I agree with skycapt44 that broods of dakkafexes can be lethal as well, although you do lose the ability to drop them behind enemy lines in a Tyrannocyte., which makes them a bit less flexible to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Updated HighLander list!

Detachment 1: Combined Arms
* Flyrant, double devourers, electroshock grubs

* 3 Ripper Swarms, Deep Strike
* 30 Termagants
* Tervigon, Sheddershard Beetles, Miasma Cannon

* Malanthrope

* Hive Crone
* Harpy, Stranglethorn Cannon + Stinger Salvo

* Carnifex, double devourers
* Mawloc

* Tyrranocyte, 5 Venom Cannons

* Aegis Defense Line

Detachment 2: Living Artillery Node
* 3 Tyranid Warriors, 2x Scything Talons, Barbed Strangler
* 3 Biovores
* 1 Exocrine

Gives you good objective grabbing power with the Rippers and Gaunts, disruption with a double-template Tervigon and a Mawloc, a mini Flyer Spam with Flyrant, Hive Crone, Harpy and a solid shooting base with the Malanthrope, Carnifex and LAN behind the Aegis.

Thoughts? I should add that the tournament is a mix of Eternal War on primaries (lots of objectives) and modified Maelstrom on secondaries.

skycapt44 wrote:
I am also interested in dakka'a thoughts on nid highlander. Seems tough for the nids wondering what people think. I feel broods of dakkafex could be useful and the dimacharon seems promising. Also tervigon seems like a no brainer due to spawning

Considering how every list starts out with how many flyrants can I fit, then how do I best support them with my left over points, I'd say nids are in trouble.

If you can only select a single FW unit in the highlander do you think the dimacharon is a better choice than the malanthrope? I mean you can always take venoms so dima seems like that way to go in a cyte.

Polkadragon wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Updated HighLander list!

Detachment 1: Combined Arms
* Flyrant, double devourers, electroshock grubs

* 3 Ripper Swarms, Deep Strike
* 30 Termagants
* Tervigon, Sheddershard Beetles, Miasma Cannon

* Malanthrope

* Hive Crone
* Harpy, Stranglethorn Cannon + Stinger Salvo

* Carnifex, double devourers
* Mawloc

* Tyrranocyte, 5 Venom Cannons

* Aegis Defense Line

Detachment 2: Living Artillery Node
* 3 Tyranid Warriors, 2x Scything Talons, Barbed Strangler
* 3 Biovores
* 1 Exocrine

Gives you good objective grabbing power with the Rippers and Gaunts, disruption with a double-template Tervigon and a Mawloc, a mini Flyer Spam with Flyrant, Hive Crone, Harpy and a solid shooting base with the Malanthrope, Carnifex and LAN behind the Aegis.

Thoughts? I should add that the tournament is a mix of Eternal War on primaries (lots of objectives) and modified Maelstrom on secondaries.

Are the 3 biovores in a single brood or are they independent? This formation would not work in a Highlander event if they were independent.

I think it got FAQ'd to one Brood of x3...

It's a brood of 3 Biovores, not 3 broods of 1

skycapt44 wrote:
If you can only select a single FW unit in the highlander do you think the dimacharon is a better choice than the malanthrope? I mean you can always take venoms so dima seems like that way to go in a cyte.

I find the Malanthrope is just better than the Dima, besides the venom effect, he's also solid Synapse and decent in cc with his poisoned attacks and preferred enemy aura.

to the other poster: the Biovores have to be in one brood of 3

skycapt44 wrote:
If you can only select a single FW unit in the highlander do you think the dimacharon is a better choice than the malanthrope? I mean you can always take venoms so dima seems like that way to go in a cyte.

It all depends on the rest of the list and the highlander rules.

 jy2 wrote:

Polkadragon wrote:
The one thing I'm still a bit leery about is the WraithKnight. I'm debating taking a unit of Shrikes just for him, but they are so damn expensive, I'm not sure it's worth the price :|

Genestealers are your best bet against the WK. They will keep him away and as long as you put the leading stealers in ruins and trail them back to your malanthrope/venomthrope, then they become quite survivable.

The other option would be to run the Dimachaeron.

Shrikes, Raveners, Genestealers, Dimacharon, Toxicrines, and Neurothropes are our best choices to kill a wraith knight, but they are all bad. Best to ignore them, kill everything else, and win the mission. Build a list to survive the Wraith Knight, not to kill it.

Barbie, Hierophant and Hierodule are the best options for killing the Wraithknight but sadly they are overcosted against it.

Of those, Dima is the best chance to kill it.

tag8833 wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

Polkadragon wrote:
The one thing I'm still a bit leery about is the WraithKnight. I'm debating taking a unit of Shrikes just for him, but they are so damn expensive, I'm not sure it's worth the price :|

Genestealers are your best bet against the WK. They will keep him away and as long as you put the leading stealers in ruins and trail them back to your malanthrope/venomthrope, then they become quite survivable.

The other option would be to run the Dimachaeron.

Shrikes, Raveners, Genestealers, Dimacharon, Toxicrines, and Neurothropes are our best choices to kill a wraith knight, but they are all bad. Best to ignore them, kill everything else, and win the mission. Build a list to survive the Wraith Knight, not to kill it.

I wouldn't send shrikes and raveners to deal with the WK. He will just insta-kill them. To him, they are no harder to kill than the genestealer, yet they can cost 2-3x as much.

But yeah, best tactic is to just ignore him (or send in a tarpit uni against him) and then focus on the rest of the army.

How would Swarmlord stack up versus a Wraithknighg ?

Wouldn't it be nice if out Gargantuan creatures were priced like the Wraithknight?

 Tyran wrote:
Wouldn't it be nice if out Gargantuan creatures were priced like the Wraithknight?

I would prefer it if the WK was priced like a gargantuan creature.