Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I was reading Forgeworlds Horus Heresy vol. 2 earlier today and came across what I believe to be as the best idea, ever.

wWhen escalation was announced, i was all for it. I was like, "sweet! new way of playing! new models too!"

Man I was wrong. Escalation blows one huuuuuuuuuuuuuuge dick. its a chance for douchebags to fork out dollar dollar dollar for n instant win unit:- its bogus. (heres looking at you, rev)

anyway, when I was reading said book, i came across a rule. It's called "the 25% rule" meaning that, if you are to take a LOW, it can only cost up to 25% of your total army! BRILLIANT RIGHT?!
so, no more over powered D weapons in 2,000 point games but still room for Lords of war to chug around with smashing metal!

perhaps it could use some tweaks as i appreciate some super heavies are 5-700 points and are well balanced/ do not have D weapons but as a whole, i think this is a great way to structure army lists.

what do you think? leave your comments/rants/rages below!

25% rule is pretty well known mate. If I ever allow superheavies into an event I am running, I would likely use both this rule, a serious nerf to D weapons, and a removal of the "immune to damage table results" rule

Only real downside to this that I can see is that, to my knowledge, only Imperial armies have LoW choices that cost less than 500 points. So in -most- games, no-one but the imperium could field one. And they could still field a shadowsword. So basically this would make IG the only ones with access to superheavies, and STR D, of everyone.
Great idea, but to properly balance this you'd need a comprehensive list of EVERY superheavy, its points cost, its wargear/options, what armies can take them, etc etc etc. Then either come up with a more realistic point scaling for them, for things like heirodules which are effectively crappy wraithknights for 3x the cost. Or the ever revenant titan, which for a relative pittance drops 4 STRd blasts a turn. It really comes down to, one again, that GW's core of designers have no basis for points cost. Disparities between all of the 6th edition codices isevidence to that.

Once again, I believe that this is an opportune time for the many intelligent, rational individuals (no sarcasm, serious statement) on dakka to get together and bounce points/rules/etc off one another to try to fix the plethora of issues with our game.

I assume this rule would also apply to stronghold assault as the Aquilla strongpoint can also shot 2 strenght D weapons a turn.

Orks have a solid 300-500pts D dropper too. So 25% cap definitely isn't enough, those D weapons need a kick in the teeth

Eldar Lynx. Pulsar. Two Strength D Large Blasts per turn, can move as a flyer if it doesn't shoot. All of 320pts.

Tournament organizers around where I live have a "no D weapons, period" policy in place for this exact reason.

A 25% limit doesn't work very well because it rules out too many options that aren't a problem. There are a lot of LoW options (all Baneblade variants, for example) that are just slightly over 500 points once you buy reasonable upgrades for them, and some armies don't even have a viable choice below 500 points. And that's a 2000 point game, once you bring the point level down you end up banning LoW entirely. If you want to balance Escalation properly you need to do something to nerf D-weapons (IMO reducing their template size to 3" so they're worthless against infantry armies is the best approach, with an optional nerf to the number of shots that titans get to bring them in line with non-titan superheavies) and leave the rest of them alone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dakkamite wrote:
and a removal of the "immune to damage table results" rule

I would strongly suggest not doing this. Before the new version of Apocalypse superheavies were garbage, a single "shaken" result prevented them from shooting (their only meaningful weapons are blast weapons) and a single "weapon destroyed" could cripple them. Baneblades were a 500 point paperweight, and Malcadors and similar "small" superheavies were just LRBTs with a higher point cost. Ignoring damage results was absolutely necessary to make spending 500 points on a single tank in a 2000 point a remotely viable option.

 Dakkamite wrote:
25% rule is pretty well known mate. If I ever allow superheavies into an event I am running, I would likely use both this rule, a serious nerf to D weapons, and a removal of the "immune to damage table results" rule

Thus showing you have no game experience with escalation and not enough understanding of it to make adjustments to balance.

Nerfing D strengthen all the units that don`t need any buff - GMC, MC, 2++ and other super heavies.
Making superheavies take damage results just makes GMC`s that much better. Seeing as GMC`s are generally much worse for normal armies than super heavy vehicles, giving two big boosts to them will make for a less interesting time for normal armies, as you have prepared the ground for GMC domination. In normal escalation, GMC`s are kept in check by titans, which again are kept in check by normal armies.

Play some games of escalation folks, D is not that scary, we already have tons of AP2 ignore cover weapons around, which for most units feel exactly the same, except your opponent didn`t spend 900 pts on it that can be tied up by a single eldar jetbike.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Eldar Lynx. Pulsar. Two Strength D Large Blasts per turn, can move as a flyer if it doesn't shoot. All of 320pts.

Tournament organizers around where I live have a "no D weapons, period" policy in place for this exact reason.

It costs 430 pts, is AV11 and 6HP. It is good, but hardly broken. And again, no D = GMC paradise.

You know what's funny is one of the best balancing factors of WHFB is totally not in WH40k anymore, that being the rules that govern how much of your army must be composed of however many points. It used to be part of the game but got lost in some older edition somewheres along the line, as well as any stipulation "You must play games at X point value for [unique character] to be a part of your force."

Would be kind of fun if GW proper put as much time and effort into their products as Forgeworld did.

The best 'fix' in my opinion is 50%, no ranged D weapons.

This scales it somewhat, ensures everything does have access to Lords of War, and means that to use StrD, the model has to get into melee, and basically get into range of every single enemy weapon to use it.

Illumini wrote:

 Dakkamite wrote:
25% rule is pretty well known mate. If I ever allow superheavies into an event I am running, I would likely use both this rule, a serious nerf to D weapons, and a removal of the "immune to damage table results" rule

Thus showing you have no game experience with escalation and not enough understanding of it to make adjustments to balance.

Nerfing D strengthen all the units that don`t need any buff - GMC, MC, 2++ and other super heavies.
Making superheavies take damage results just makes GMC`s that much better. Seeing as GMC`s are generally much worse for normal armies than super heavy vehicles, giving two big boosts to them will make for a less interesting time for normal armies, as you have prepared the ground for GMC domination. In normal escalation, GMC`s are kept in check by titans, which again are kept in check by normal armies.

Play some games of escalation folks, D is not that scary, we already have tons of AP2 ignore cover weapons around, which for most units feel exactly the same, except your opponent didn`t spend 900 pts on it that can be tied up by a single eldar jetbike.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Eldar Lynx. Pulsar. Two Strength D Large Blasts per turn, can move as a flyer if it doesn't shoot. All of 320pts.

Tournament organizers around where I live have a "no D weapons, period" policy in place for this exact reason.

It costs 430 pts, is AV11 and 6HP. It is good, but hardly broken. And again, no D = GMC paradise.

StrD is scary, and overpowered because:
1: It ignores all Toughness and Armour, automattically causing Wounds and Penetrating hits.
2: It causes up to 12 wounds / HP damage per a hit
3: It ignores all Saves, Cover Saves, Invulnerable Saves and Feel No Pain and Res Protocols.
4: On a 2+, it makes non-superheavy vehicles automatically explode.

If by 'GC paradise' you mean - won't die immediately to the average 6 wounds cause by a StrD weapon against it, with no defence, while any StrD you fire back hits Void Shields, while equivalently priced Titans have 9HP + 2VS to your GCs 5-6 wounds... yeah, that'd be pretty nice actually.

Seriously - 3-4 times the points in Gargantuan Creatures might survive to kill 1 Warhound with 2 Turbo Lasers.

SRSFACE wrote:You know what's funny is one of the best balancing factors of WHFB is totally not in WH40k anymore, that being the rules that govern how much of your army must be composed of however many points. It used to be part of the game but got lost in some older edition somewheres along the line, as well as any stipulation "You must play games at X point value for [unique character] to be a part of your force."

Would be kind of fun if GW proper put as much time and effort into their products as Forgeworld did.

Percentages haven't been in 40k since Third Ed was released.
'Your army must be Xpts to use X Special Character' was just annoying and most people just ignored it anyway.

Yeah, having played the gargantuans vs superheavies battle, I can safely say that nerfing Str D will just make Gargantuans viable.

A battle between something like six Warhounds and eighteen purpose-built homebrewed titan killer GMCs resulted in a TPK for the GMCs when we Vassaled it.

Just knock Str D down to Str10 AP2 Ignores Cover, forces Invuns to be rerolled. Maybe let it cause d3 wounds/HP damage, or roll to wound again on a To Wound of a 6.

I haven't even been able to use my damn Hierophants since the D-weapon change since one punk with dual turbolasers can blow them to hell all damn game long.

D-weapons most certainly do need a nerf.

The old D-weapon rules worked fine.

 Ovion wrote:
The best 'fix' in my opinion is 50%, no ranged D weapons.

This scales it somewhat, ensures everything does have access to Lords of War, and means that to use StrD, the model has to get into melee, and basically get into range of every single enemy weapon to use it.

Illumini wrote:

 Dakkamite wrote:
25% rule is pretty well known mate. If I ever allow superheavies into an event I am running, I would likely use both this rule, a serious nerf to D weapons, and a removal of the "immune to damage table results" rule

Thus showing you have no game experience with escalation and not enough understanding of it to make adjustments to balance.

Nerfing D strengthen all the units that don`t need any buff - GMC, MC, 2++ and other super heavies.
Making superheavies take damage results just makes GMC`s that much better. Seeing as GMC`s are generally much worse for normal armies than super heavy vehicles, giving two big boosts to them will make for a less interesting time for normal armies, as you have prepared the ground for GMC domination. In normal escalation, GMC`s are kept in check by titans, which again are kept in check by normal armies.

Play some games of escalation folks, D is not that scary, we already have tons of AP2 ignore cover weapons around, which for most units feel exactly the same, except your opponent didn`t spend 900 pts on it that can be tied up by a single eldar jetbike.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Eldar Lynx. Pulsar. Two Strength D Large Blasts per turn, can move as a flyer if it doesn't shoot. All of 320pts.

Tournament organizers around where I live have a "no D weapons, period" policy in place for this exact reason.

It costs 430 pts, is AV11 and 6HP. It is good, but hardly broken. And again, no D = GMC paradise.

StrD is scary, and overpowered because:
1: It ignores all Toughness and Armour, automattically causing Wounds and Penetrating hits.
2: It causes up to 12 wounds / HP damage per a hit
3: It ignores all Saves, Cover Saves, Invulnerable Saves and Feel No Pain and Res Protocols.
4: On a 2+, it makes non-superheavy vehicles automatically explode.

If by 'GC paradise' you mean - won't die immediately to the average 6 wounds cause by a StrD weapon against it, with no defence, while any StrD you fire back hits Void Shields, while equivalently priced Titans have 9HP + 2VS to your GCs 5-6 wounds... yeah, that'd be pretty nice actually.

Seriously - 3-4 times the points in Gargantuan Creatures might survive to kill 1 Warhound with 2 Turbo Lasers.

Average wounds from a D-weapon is 3, not 6. It also does not auto-wound, it wounds on 2+. Sure, a 6 = almost anything dead, but a 2-5 is actually better for multiwound T4 models (nid warriors, characters) than getting hit by a riptide, as against the riptide, they die on a 2+. Against D, they can still roll a 1-2 on the next roll and not kill you. Most titans and superheavies have weapons which are much better against normal units than the D-weapons. 6D6 S8 Ap3 weapon is better vs normal stuff, S6 AP2 18" torrent hellstorm is better, S10 AP1 ignore cover 10" blast is better.

It is also a good thing that something counters invulnerable saves, there are too many units with too good invulnerable saves at the moment. Bring in titans, and those lists must adapt and not go so unbalanced.

And yes, D is a counter to GMC`s, but GMC`s, or at least the best of them, are counters to non-superheavy armies and non-superheavy armies counter titans. IMO, it is good that it is very risky to bring a GMC. It is a deathstar build, and as such, it is likely to have some horrible matchups and some good matchups. Remove D, and the C`tan can run over anything, Except for extreme grav spam or D-weapons, it is not possible to kill him in a sub 2k pts game. Everybody can bring void shields you know? Your GMC can bring 9 and laugh at the titan trying to shoot him. It just costs a lot of pts and unbalances the list further.

Actually, with most StrD weapons in play being 2shot or more, 1 StrD gun shooting at 1 GC is going to cause around 6 wounds, killing it.

And against Warriors, how the hell is it better?
On a 2-5 it's D3 +1, the average result there is 3 wounds per hit, with no saves of any kind, meaning it's quite dead.

Sure with Str6+ guns it's wounding on a 2+, but there's always saves / cover saves, which help, and it's only 1 wound per hit, not 2 to 12.
Which applies to ALL infantry, elite or otherwise.

On a roll of a 1, or on a roll of a 2-5 then a 1 it might survive, assuming there aren't enough spill over wounds from the other hits!

A Horde hit by StrD is going to take an average of 3 wounds per hit, even on 3 models that's 9 wounds a shot (and as above, 2 shots so probably 18). Again, no saves of any kind so that's probably 18 models just dead.

Vehicles? 1 is an autopen and a 2-6 is an auto explodes. What's that? No saves or hope! well damn, there goes that Land Raider in one hit.

Infact, the only things that realisticly stand a chance, are 5+ wound Monstrous Creatures, as they're small enough to have a fair chance of 1 shot missing and will only get instantly vaporised on a 6.

For 720pts you get 4, 96" range, StrD AP2 Large Blasts, on a platform that can move 12" a turn, fire at different targets, has 9HP and 2 Voidshields.
You're going to reliably cause 3 wounds per hit, so if you put all 4 templates on the same target, that's 12 per model, or on a group assuming an average 5 models (as with a Horde), that's 60 wounds.

And it's not just a counter to Gargantuan Creatures, it nullifies them and makes them useless.
There is basically no point in taking it whatsoever, if you're facing a StrD weapon as it will die immediately.

In return, for the equivalent points, a Titan will survive at least 2-3 rounds of StrD fire, and be far killier while it's alive.

Riptides have S8 AP2 guns with easy access to ignore cover. That means that T4 multiwound dies on 2+, which is actually worse than D.

Stuff like Grav centurions with ignore cover will also feel quite similar, and in many cases, is actually much better. No MC without a 2++ is going to survive buffed gravcents, while many MC`s have good chances against D.

No wonder you think D is broken, you are playing it totally wrong.

D wounds are per model, not spread out through the unit. If you hit 5 models with you D blast, only five will die maximum, no matter how many 6`s you roll.

Rereading it, yes ok we've been playing that part wrong.

However, the average 3 wounds means you still instant kill a Warrior. And it's still worse than most, as there's exactly 0 chance of any save at all.

If it allowed Invun Saves, then I think it would be fine to be honest.