The most controversial rules

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**dmthomas7**

Me and a few friends are looking to do a local tournament and we are looking to find out what sort of controversial rules would be a good idea to address up front. So what I am asking is what are the really controversial subjects that do not have clear answer. The idea would be to make decisions on these rules early so games will run smoothly at the start.

**Jimsolo**

Scroll down the YMDC sub-forum and check out any question with 10 or more pages on it. 5 or more pages if you want to be thorough.

Side note: this should probably be in either Tournament Discussions or 40k General Discussion, since it isn't an actual rules question.

**PrinceRaven**

Are the effects of multiple instances of the same psychic power cumulative?
Do you have to roll to hit with Psychic Shriek or Puppet Master? How many dice do you roll? Does missing prevent you from resolving the power?
When going to ground in area terrain, does the bonus to going to ground only apply to your area terrain cover save? (This one does have a clear answer, but I'm including it anyway because of how many wilfully ignorant people will argue against it).

Those are the big ones that come to mind for me.

**Jimsolo**

I have a short list of questions I always make sure to clear up before bringing my army to a tournament.

Can you Gate of Infinity out of close combat?
Do Drop Pod doors count as hull?
Must Drop Pod doors be opened? Must they be counted as open if if they aren't?
If an Independent Character joins a unit of Battle Brothers, can the whole unit get in a transport from the same codex as the base unit?

**insaniak**

As a really basic one, it's worth clarifying how strict you will be on base sizes and conversions...

**dmthomas7**

If this does need to move around please help me out and relocate as needed. Thank you so far for the ideas. Please keep them coming.

**Jimsolo**

dmthomas7: Another good one that someone just reminded me of is the question of grav weapons, vehicles, and cover saves. Specifically, do vehicles get cover saves against grav weaponry?

Also, can Apothecaries in Space Marine Command Squads take upgrades?

Again, these aren't rules I'm looking to debate, but rules that I have seen cause big long debates when they came up, so it might be good to have an answer handy.

**PrinceRaven**

Another Grav one: What happens when a you shoot at a unit with more than one armour save with a Grav Weapon?

**greyknight12**

Another good resource (other than this forum) is to look through tournament FAQs. You can see which way TOs ruled on certain issues and which ones they felt most important to address.

An example is the BAO (Bay Area Open) FAQ: http://www.frontlinegaming.org/community/40k-faq/

**nutty_nutter**

can the grimoure of true names provide a 2++ rerollable

can jetpack models within units containing models that do not have jetpacks use the Thrust move?

can sameal of the dark angels be the warlord when embarked on his land speeder?

**Shandara**

I wouldn't call the grimoire one controversial as to RAW/RAI, it's perfectly clear.

My favourite:
Models that come with more than 1 type of base included (i.e. square and round):
* Only round allowed
* Both allowed
* Have to glue it to both at the same time!

**Spellbound**

grav guns ignoring cover/invul saves for vehicles is another controversial issue.

And, though I didn't realize it would be, the question of whether or not a chaos lord can trade the twin-linked bolter on his bike (should he buy a bike) for other weapons is apparently controversial.

**Stormbreed**

As an avid tournament goer I can tell you bluntly, disregard any banter in this thread and just read the questions, very rarely have I met a TO or gone to a tournament where the rules follow what many people on YMTC classify as RAW.

Basic good question to get out of the way.

Ruins, are you going to be allowed to move through them as the BRB suggests is legal or has the TO ruled you must go around?

**Happyjew**

Another good idea would be to look for the "(insert army name here) 6th edition FAQ submission" threads. While some were answered, there are write a few good questions that come up.

Which reminds me, we need to start one for Tyranids.

**Shandara**

Happyjew wrote:
Another good idea would be to look for the "(insert army name here) 6th edition FAQ submission" threads. While some were answered, there are write a few good questions that come up.

Which reminds me, we need to start one for Tyranids.

Sadly all those nice threads didn't lead too new FAQs from GW (I did mail a bunch of questions at them a few times).

**Co'tor Shas**

A clarification that pyrovore's volatile means that they hit each model with (d?)6 once, not every model on the board as many times as their are models withing (d?)6. There was some discussion on that.
Things that specify "Shooting Phase" (such as multi-trackers) do not affect overwatch.

**Shandara**

Except we'd need new shooting rules for shooting outside the shooting phase since by definition you can only use them in the shooting phase. (hint GW: separate turn phases and shooting/movement/assault/etc..)

**Janthkin**

This thread is getting WAY off-topic. Do NOT use it to discuss the rules themselves; that you want to argue about them is sufficient in itself to demonstrate that they belong on the OP's list of controversial rules.

**quickfuze**

I would suggest looking at major event FAQs like adepticon and nova. They tend to use common sense instead of some of the ridiculous rules lawyering you might find here. Plus they are indepth and alot of work already done for you.

**Crimson**

Various armouries say: "can replace one weapon with one of the following..." Does this mean only one or one per one?

**Drager**

Can an IC join a unit with infiltrate that is outflanking?

Can the bolters on a Chaos Lords bike be swapped for other weapons?

**Kommissar Kel**

Drager wrote:
Can an IC join a unit with infiltrate that is outflanking?

Can the bolters on a Chaos Lords bike be swapped for other weapons?

Can grenades be swapped as weapons(any, ranged, or for certain grenades melee)?

By RAW they can, but clearly that is not RAI

**insaniak**

So apparently a second warning is necessary.

I have cleared out all of the off-topic chatter. This thread is not the place for rules debates. If there is something raised here that you really feel the need to discuss, start a separate thread.

**Drager**

1) When in area terrain and in receipt of cover from a ruin, if you go to ground is your cover save 2+c or 3+c?

a) What about if area terrain you are in is the ruins base?

b) What if it is a separate piece of terrain?

2) 6" coherency across different floors of a ruin, does this count for other multi level terrain?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Do MCs (such as a Tervigon) receive a cover save if the shooting unit must shoot through a unit (such as termagants) to hit the MCs toe?

Assume the MC is NOT 25% covered, but that there is no way to shoot completely over the unit (say the unit is in base contact with the MC, for example).

**dmthomas7**

Thank you for all the ideas and other sugestions. ALso thanks to the MODs for policing the page. I was really hoping to avoid giant rules disputes in the middle of the thread.

**greatbigtree**

Ignores cover, pg 38:

"Cover saves cannot be taken against Wounds..."

No mention of armour penetration rolls. Similarly worded to "Shred" which has no effect on vehicles. Previous editions allowed Ignores Cover to work on Vehicles. Not everyone agrees upon this, so worth addressing in the context of widely available "Ignores Cover" armies.

**PrinceRaven**

^ I think this is actually addressed in the rulebook when it says Vehicles take cover saves exactly like non-vehicle models.

**greatbigtree**

And, without making a big deal out of it, Ignores cover doesn't negate cover saves. It prevents cover saves from being taken against wounds. Which are not the same thing as Armour Penetration rolls.

Shred has no effect on vehicles. Armourbane has no effect on to-wound rolls. The way Ignores Cover is worded, there is a point of discussion there.

It is something worth mentioning in a tourney FAQ, even if it is to say that Ignores Cover works on Vehicles as well. Something that has recently come up in my circle.

**Krellnus**

PrinceRaven wrote:
^ I think this is actually addressed in the rulebook when it says Vehicles take cover saves exactly like non-vehicle models.

It is.

I'm surprised that no-one has brought up the stupid barrage FAQ that makes them incredibly slow to play and more accurate snipers than, well, snipers.

**PrinceRaven**

Krellnus wrote:
PrinceRaven wrote:
^ I think this is actually addressed in the rulebook when it says Vehicles take cover saves exactly like non-vehicle models.

It is.

I'm surprised that no-one has brought up the stupid barrage FAQ that makes them incredibly slow to play and more accurate snipers than, well, snipers.

... because it's not controversial?