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Bossk_Hogg wrote:

 ironicsilence wrote:
Defiance's most recent post is much more level headed, shame that response wasnt the first one they went to market with.

No kidding. Don't post drunk I guess?

Where's the fun in that?

Defiance Games are not absolved any financial responsibility to Torn. Even if what they posted is true. They're not denying that no work, aside from reviewing and rejecting files, was done. The only issue anybody is having with them over the current situation is their inability to refund Torn's money; essentially holding them hostage and freezing their operation by denying the funds they need to move forward.

Right now it seems Defiance Games are responsible for Torn's failed Kickstarter until they refund the money.

I honestly kind of hope that Defiance can step up and not only do what's right and get the money returned but also earn themselves a bit of goodwill in the community and help get Torn headed in a better direction.

I tend to always want to root for the underdogs. Both companies are in pretty underdog positions at the moment.

I would be genuinely impressed if Defiance would take steps to get things for both their companies back on track.

I just don't see that happening though.

Not solely responsible if the numbers quoted are correct.

67k-20k for the digital models=47k
39 models x $400 = 15.6k after the "live" sculping, leaving 30.4k
Based on NoseGoblin's post [1], ~$1000 for molds and $54.75 per set at 407 sets (from the kickstarter page - I might be off by a little) is ~23k leaving 7.4k for shipping, and the actual board/boxing/etc. In other words, not enough.

And that doesn't count the fact that apparently the digital sculpts needed to be entirely redone.

1: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/120/575288.page#6472518

judgedoug wrote:A surprisingly reasonable response from Defiance.

Yeah, unlike all the fights and drama they were inciting to detract from the question of why they weren't just refunding the money.

Defiance Games wrote:We don't believe she could afford to finish her Kickstarter with us or anyone.

Apparently if they can convince her backers that it would never happen, then keeping the money is okay. I see literally no professional reason to mention this opinion. If it's destined to fail then great, whatever. So far though it already has because someone seems to have their money and basically delivered nothing useful. Sure charge for the attempt, but if the rest was for some production and that never actually happened it's really strange that money would somehow manged to stop existing. Was it magic? Elf magic maybe?

Defiance Games wrote:But as a small company, we're just not in a position to do that immediately in a lump sum.

So they were given someone else's money for a side project, spent nothing on their sculptors, and yet don't have funding for standard operation post refund? Really? Sounds to me like without that money DG wouldn't even exist anymore anyway without loans from doomed kickstarter projects.

In the end it seems they still owe money they very poorly mismanaged. Beyond the costs of the attempt no smart person would let the rest of that money go anywhere till the chickens are hatched.

Mathieu Raymond wrote:

Bossk_Hogg wrote:

 ironicsilence wrote:
Defiance's most recent post is much more level headed, shame that response wasnt the first one they went to market with.

No kidding. Don't post drunk I guess?

Where's the fun in that?

I think the fun comes the next morning when things aren't unfun .

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
The sculptor who looked at/played with the 3D files for defiance has posted (on Frothers UK) saying he'd rather that his name stayed out of things so I wont post it here (but pop over to frothers if you want to know)

1. the files were a mess, not suitable for use for printing/casting (in terms of quality and also in terms of not being designed with casting in mind)

2. It became clear that without loads of extra work which he did not have time to do the files provided were not going to be any use

3. He spent about 40 hours playing around with them to see what he could do (he did not ask for or receive payment for this)

so there appears to be corroboration for the problems on that score,

but as has been said above that is no excuse for Defiance not returning the money that had not been spent on the Torn project to date

Given that particular sculptor's relative lack of digital experience, I would take that corroboration with a hefty dose of salt...

Has Defiance answered (or even acknowledged) the money question yet?

~Eric

Defiance's second statement does a good job of shifting some of the blame back to Torn. I looked at their kickstarter the other day (I have no memory of it as it was happening) it does seem like a lot of stuff for not a lot of money.

But then - they might have had the work partially done/paid for ahead of time (not using KS funds) or had other funding sources we're not aware of (yet?).

Neither company is smelling of roses, so if both do wind up going belly up, it might not be the worst thing for the community.


** Some rephrasing since several posts popped up between my post and the post I was replying to.

Defiance Games really needs to stop referring to it's self as 'DFG' as that alludes to Dream Forge Games and defiance using that abbreviation really smacks of trying to muddy the waters between the companies and leech off Dream Forge's success and good rep...

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Defiance Games really needs to stop referring to it's self as 'DFG' as that alludes to Dream Forge Games and defiance using that abbreviation really smacks of trying to muddy the waters between the companies and leech off Dream Forge's success and good rep...

Eh, it might backfire, if people start referring to them as "DFG (no, the gak one)".

I must say, I pity the backers. It's highly unlikely good will come of this for them.

What I do not understand is that the update on Torn Armor KS page on January 8th is quite optimistic about creating the miniatures. Then just two weeks later they announce that it has basically gone belly up. All seems a bit sudden to me. Like most I just hope that the backers get their money back.

 Buzzsaw wrote:

We did not complete the project – because we did not receive files that could be turned into produceable miniatures. If we had these – this project would be done now. We now highly doubt it would have shipped given the financials...this was a severely underfunded Kickstarter and anyone can look at the sheer amount of figures, printing, and shipping and see that.

It's entirely reasonable that Defiance incurred costs and so should be made whole. What is not reasonable, and indeed may be legally significant, is that Defiance, by their own accounting, took money for work that has not been done, and that money is now not available.

This, this, a million times this. The story Defiance told about Torn is interesting for sure but also, totally irrelevant as to "why Defiance took Torn's money and won't give it back". They want to say they don't have some of it because they had to pay their in-house people for the work Defiance did on it, I feel that, but it's all gone and you did nothing? Come on.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
This announcement lays a lot of blame on Torn but it does not get Defiance off the hook.

Defiance thought the other project was unworkable and accepted the contract -- and the money -- anyway.

That's unprofessional, and unacceptable as an excuse for their conduct.

Where did the money go that Torn paid to Defiance?

In accounting, the money they received should of NOT been marked as revenue in their books. When taking money upfront it is not considered revenue until the work is completed. I got a feeling the Defiance Games books are a utter mess of missing money and unaccounted for spending. God help the accountant who has to sort threw their books in court.

 judgedoug wrote:
A surprisingly reasonable response from Defiance. I'm open to the idea that my assessment is incorrect that Torn Armor may actually have the majority of the blame.

I would not be so quick to think that.

I remember during the Wargame Factory days that Tony had a great gift for creating believable stories to shift the blame. Just read any of his letters blaming his Chinese supplier that we now know were utter BS. We also know at this point that his "payment plans" never seem to work out for the guys who are suppose to be getting paid back. You get 1 or 2 payments then it stops.

Personally I'm inclined to believe that Torn was probably fairly naive coming into this industry, and had their fair share of issues leading up to what has happened now. But that doesn't excuse Defiance for what they are doing.

For Torn Armor Company:

Breach of Contract Damages: the initial monies paid to DG must be repaid.

Consequential Damages: The damages due Torn Armor are what it would have made had DG completed the contract by the time specified. In addition, Torn Armor company will be able to seek the damages it suffered due to the breach, in finding a new company to do the work- or the damages it would have suffered in doing so.

Defiance Games:

Incidental Damages: DG can claim it expended time in reviewing the files and communicating with Torn Armor. These damages may be provable in a counter-suit but it is unlikely DG will be awarded anything but nominal pecuniary payback; especially considering the strength of Torn's case (based on the facts presented).

If there was an acceleration and/or TOE (time is of the essence) clause/language in the original agreement Torn's damages would go up (possibly WAY up).

Admittedly, I do not know the facts of either side intimately but from what I see it is an open and shut situation for Torn. This is exacerbated by DFG's extremely poor reputation. Adding to that DFG's past dealings in which it did the same thing to other organizations and Torn will have an easy ride to the bank.

I like how they go 'hey, the KS only raised this amount' without realising that MAYBE the KS creators put in extra money other than just relying on KS funds.

As the TA KS update says "This situation simply sucks.We have put in a lot of our own personal money into this,"

 Centurionpainting wrote:
For Torn Armor Company:

Breach of Contract Damages: the initial monies paid to DG must be repaid.

Consequential Damages: The damages due Torn Armor are what it would have made had DG completed the contract by the time specified. In addition, Torn Armor company will be able to seek the damages it suffered due to the breach, in finding a new company to do the work- or the damages it would have suffered in doing so.

Defiance Games:

Incidental Damages: DG can claim it expended time in reviewing the files and communicating with Torn Armor. These damages may be provable in a counter-suit but it is unlikely DG will be awarded anything but nominal pecuniary payback; especially considering the strength of Torn's case (based on the facts presented).

If there was an acceleration and/or TOE (time is of the essence) clause/language in the original agreement Torn's damages would go up (possibly WAY up).

Admittedly, I do not know the facts of either side intimately but from what I see it is an open and shut situation for Torn. This is exacerbated by DFG's extremely poor reputation. Adding to that DFG's past dealings in which it did the same thing to other organizations and Torn will have an easy ride to the bank.

Everything you said is great, except it's just DG, not DFG. Defiance games keeps trying to link themselves to DreamForge Games(DFG), probably due to DFGs great reputation. Tony used to work/CEO form wargames factory which produces the DFG miniatures. I think it's intentional on their part, hoping to get some attention for people not fully aware of the situation.

Yeah, there are two issues here. The first is responsibilty for the Torn Armor Kickstarter failing, which is plenty muddy, but likely good old fashioned lack of competence by Torn Armor.

The second is the breach of contract between Defiance and Torn Armor, in which Defiance took a bunch of money, decided they couldn't fulfill the contract, and won't return the cash.

The first issue will effect Torn Armor's reputation, and there is of course some precedent for legal action against a kickstarter. That all said, the second issue exists independently, and Defiance not being the cause of the Kickstarter failing should not, in my understanding, limit their liability for breach.

 Polonius wrote:
Yeah, there are two issues here. The first is responsibilty for the Torn Armor Kickstarter failing, which is plenty muddy, but likely good old fashioned lack of competence by Torn Armor.

The second is the breach of contract between Defiance and Torn Armor, in which Defiance took a bunch of money, decided they couldn't fulfill the contract, and won't return the cash.

The first issue will effect Torn Armor's reputation, and there is of course some precedent for legal action against a kickstarter. That all said, the second issue exists independently, and Defiance not being the cause of the Kickstarter failing should not, in my understanding, limit their liability for breach.

Yeah, DG not DFG, my bad. DFG is a great company and I intend to buy some stuff from them soon. I actually did two commissions for DG and there was a ton of drama I went through for payment so I take special interest in Defiance threads. But I digress....

Polonius- The only issue I was addressing was breach of the initial contract between the DG and Torn people; this is the main issue. In the breach of contract action, reputation, excuses, wait-times, and industry programming norms would all be used to support/defend in that case.

Anything regarding the kickstarter is secondary and could (possibly) result in further litigation (although the merits of that case would be much more ambiguous). I see the precedent provided above and while useful, it appears to be largely fact-dependent. In other words, it would depend on things we do not know or information which has not been provided to us on this forum (AFAIK). The breach of contract case is much more clear cut because the law has elements which can be applied to a parties actions in the executory stage of the contract (here, when DG was supposed to be doing its part-printing the concepts/models and supplying the agreed-upon product to Torn).

Like I said, I am on the outside looking in but from what I have read the facts are in favor of Torn.

Oh, I agree with your analysis, at least after a quick read.

I was just articulating what's been hinted at by many posters, that Defiance's explanation of why the kickstarter failed does not make them less liable for the breach.

Just as I stated in my previous post, Defiance Games is the reason for Torn Armor's kickstarter failing as of right now. They've frozen Torn's money which effectively shuts them down.

Everything else is irrelevant at this point.

It was a poor decision on Torn's part and that means they're not guiltless in the state of events, but that's only with the benefit of hindsight. At the time it may have seemed like a sensible choice.

Well, some of the facts alleged by Defiance seem to indicate that the project was underfunded. Perhaps Torn Armor could salvage something with the money, perhaps not. Either way, a good chunk of responsibility for the kickstarter remains with Torn Armor.

All the responsibility for the KS remains with Torn, which I believe they acknowledge in the initial update.
Funding being adequate for fulfillment is utterly irrelevant in this thread though.

Just to clarify, Defiance print their own masters? And cast their own models?
Why the hell haven't they produced anything new in a year then?

 plastictrees wrote:
All the responsibility for the KS remains with Torn, which I believe they acknowledge in the initial update.
Funding being adequate for fulfillment is utterly irrelevant in this thread though.

Just to clarify, Defiance print their own masters? And cast their own models?
Why the hell haven't they produced anything new in a year then?

They cast but they print with a service provider.

 plastictrees wrote:
All the responsibility for the KS remains with Torn, which I believe they acknowledge in the initial update.
Funding being adequate for fulfillment is utterly irrelevant in this thread though.

Just to clarify, Defiance print their own masters? And cast their own models?
Why the hell haven't they produced anything new in a year then?

Because they can't. They are incapable of doing anything of thier own.

They need to change thier moniker to TFG.

Torn should just push forward, suck it up and produce a couple of smaller boxes with someone of better reputation, while they continue pushing to get thier money back. A couplf of thousand of thier own in a small loans, or so between thier team mates, get with someone who would give them a deal, concentrate on the animorphic miniatures, and cut the fat, and get back to the plate for another swing.


Like I said, the concept looks pretty sound to me, if you put a little more effort to not being a victim, and push on, you'd give your reputation an injection of moxie, and pull something out of this mess in a diaper.

 Grot 6 wrote:
They need to change thier moniker to RSO.

I think this moniker would be better at keeping people away.

They should just die as a company already and spare us all from future misery they are bound to bring.

 BrookM wrote:
They should just die as a company already and spare us all from future misery they are bound to bring.

. . . and maybe sell the Bugs to someone else while they're at it. I liked those things, dammit, and want more!



For the record, unless things have changed, the reason Defiance calls themselves DFG is out of habit - we were all referring to them as "DFG" when the project first started (I'm part of the group invited to playtest their game rules) and it rolled off as a good abbreviation. Nowadays I use "Defiance" specifically to make sure people know who I'm referencing, but I still want to type "DFG."

In that vein, I keep reading "Torn" in this threads as "Tony" and it's causing some mild mental whiplash

 Xeno wrote:

 BrookM wrote:
They should just die as a company already and spare us all from future misery they are bound to bring.

. . . and maybe sell the Bugs to someone else while they're at it. I liked those things, dammit, and want more!



For the record, unless things have changed, the reason Defiance calls themselves DFG is out of habit - we were all referring to them as "DFG" when the project first started (I'm part of the group invited to playtest their game rules) and it rolled off as a good abbreviation. Nowadays I use "Defiance" specifically to make sure people know who I'm referencing, but I still want to type "DFG."

In that vein, I keep reading "Torn" in this threads as "Tony" and it's causing some mild mental whiplash

Problem with that was Dreamforge games was already around when tony set up defiance and tried to snag the DFG initials. Them dying as a company would just mean that they would sell everything off, probably to Tony who would start a new miniature company before being ousted again by others. He's like a bad terminator rip off "he'll be back" to prove how he was wronged

Tony, the guy who made totally unprintable sculpts for bugs (ask Troll Forged), blames Torn Armour to make totally unprintable sculpts? Nice one
Guess his reasoning is: Torn Armours can't fulfill its kickstarter anyway, so their money is better spend by us for our own amusement.

You know things are bad when they reach the missus' knitting forum.I like this summary of the situation from Ravelry:

"A: There will be no waffles. The people who we contracted to make the batter said they couldn’t read the recipe and we can’t have our money back.

B: (Facebook link): FUF! You’re the one who promised people waffles. Your recipe was wrong and you weren’t even open to using sand instead of sugar.

C: You know… I’m sure that B will give us our cupcakes. Anyway The waffle people can’t write a recipe. Also, waffles have nothing to do with cupcakes. You can tell that because waffle people don’t write a good recipe.

Not to mention public declarations of “OMG B always promises to make waffles and never delivers”, older open letters about B’s failed pancake venture, and a facebook page dedicated to tracking B’s cooking adventures."