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 SmackTalk wrote:

 LiveForTheSwarm wrote:

And if someone has brought 3 Riptides, then i'm assuming the rest of their army is rather poor. Whether its lack of scoring units, lack of support units, whatever.

 LiveForTheSwarm wrote:

I'll assume you're talking to me?... Uh what's wrong with me? I don't know? I guess I don't play against power gaming WAAC Tau players that spam riptides I suppose. The games we play are typically reasonable and not spammy.

Back peddle much? You can talk about this gak until you're blue in the face. Tau and Eldar have more overpowered units than all of the other codices combined. It's been said, it will be said again and I'm saying it now. Who gives a gak at this point? It's time to move on.

Uh where the feth did I back peddle genius? I "ASSUMED" one thing about a riptide spam list, when did I say I played against them?

If you can't see how you back peddled then I would be the idiot to continue this discussion.

 SmackTalk wrote:
If you can't see how you back peddled then I would be the idiot to continue this discussion.

Anybody spamming Riptides is clearly a WAAC player/Spam Player. But his list may suffer in scoring, where did I back pedal?

Hahahaha! I love all the rage comments we're getting here. That's what I love about dakka, there's no shortage of war gamers who are ready to have a heated argument.

On topic, tau are disliked because they're the only optimistic race in 40k. Everyone else is either evil, insane, or tragic. Seriously, have you seen BL writers try to make tau seem just as grimdark as the other factions? It's an utter failure! The majority of 40k players (myself included) are probably more into darker scifi. Tau are just a bunch of pansies who believe in friendship.

Riptides are hard to kill at range, accept it. It's really the only hard to kill model in their range. And get it to melee with anything S5+ and watch how quickly is goes away.

It's also the only way to get effective Str 8 and higher at range. The options are Broadsides, whose heavy rail rifles are laughable (should have been Str 9 OR Rapid Fire), the single shot Seeker Missiles, and nova charged Riptides. And Nova Charging only works 66% of the time.

Tau are very customize-able. They have tools to handle any situation, but can't afford to take all of those answers all of the time. If you didn't take flyers, that was points wasted and a slot wasted on Velocity Trackers. No reserves? Guess the Early Warning Over-ride was a waste too. The list goes on.

So yes, Tau can make a list to counter almost anything if they know what you are playing. Maybe if you stopped net-listing they wouldn't know what you will have.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/574990.page

With very few of the armies breaking the 10 votes mark, and Tau being well over 100, and eldar just behind I don't know how any of you can argue that tau are hated because of this fluff or that play style. It's simple my dudes. Their rules are powerful and their point costs are low / do not reflect said rules or wargear. That's all there is to it. End of discussion.

So the 2 people trying to convince us that Tau aren't op have also said they don't play with/against riptide spam and are not tournament players... Well sorry but that was never going to work.

@OP Tau were not hated last edition when they sucked but had the same fluff.

 LordofHats wrote:
I like the IG as battle brothers only because you can fluff them into Human auxillaries loyal to the Empire (also presents an interesting modelling challenge to 'tauify' IG models). EDIT: In that same vein I think it would be nice to have them as Battle Brothers for chaos as well, only because you then have a solid stand in for Traitor Guard, ignoring that you can just chaosify the normal IG models anyway.

This is as it should be. IG, especially, can be used for so many non-Imperial factions that it isn't even funny, and should be allied to so many other Codices to represent, say, the Blood Pact or a Gue'vesa milita. Shoot, make them AoC to Tyranids and now you have a GS-compromised PDF/IG unit who thinks the Hive Fleet is the coming of the Emperor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Zande4 wrote:
So the 2 people trying to convince us that Tau aren't op have also said they don't play with/against riptide spam and are not tournament players... Well sorry but that was never going to work.

@OP Tau were not hated last edition when they sucked but had the same fluff.

They were, actually, but for different reasons, as mentioned further up the thread. In those days, they were hated as being "not grimdark".

I think the hate comes first a foremost just from shear codex power. Nobody likes being utterly crushed by a codex that is clearly more powerful than theirs and clearly giving their opponent an unfair advantage. As a Tau player, I hated going up against IG in 5th edition because I was outnumbered, outgunned, I could even be outmaneuvered thanks to Vendettas and had to deal with the free bonuses they got, such as orders. Since the latest codex dropped, I have heard similar complaints from my opponents, as my army can just obliterate certain classes of units with very little effort. I don't think this particular problem is unique to the Tau dex, but is just a consequence of codex creep and sloppy external balancing on GW part, and I expect a codex which is more powerful then Tau or Eldar to be released eventually. The 6e rules do not help matters either, LOS rules favor shooting armies while an abundance of other rules collectively make assault extremely difficult, which benefit Tau immensely.

There also is a secondary problem in that the Tau were converted to a gunline army for no particular reason, making them both more boring to play and play against. I imagine a considerable number of people would have been happier if Tau were made into a mobile, aggressive, short range army with only a few long range elements like they were in the previous codex.

 LiveForTheSwarm wrote:
JY2 nearly beat (and should've) a nasty TauDar list with the widely assumed "terrible new Nids Dex", because he's a smart tactician. This game is just more then a point and click game, PLAY YOUR ARMY! Don't rely on it playing itself, you'll have a lot more fun and success.

Just wanted to address this point, because it is not a reasonable one imho. Jy2 'nearly won' that game by hiding his entire nid army for most of the game to even have the 1 in 3 chance to snatch victory on objectives. And even then the only reason he even had a chance to do that was due to a big blunder on Reecius's part. I totally agree that it was by far the smartest game strategy that Jy2 had, but come on, seriously? Why on earth should a Tyranid army's best chance at victory come by hiding away for an entire game? I am not taking away from Jy2's performance and decision making (he is an excellent player), but Reece's army is the one that should have won that game, and they did. His early move to pull the relic back was brilliant and he played the board and objectives well. His only error was leaving even the possibility for a turn 5 steal. To say that the Tyranid army "should've" won that game is just subjective bias towards Tyranids. They had at best their 33% chance to steal (i.e. more likely to fail than succeed) and they didn't get it.

Back to the topic at hand though, even with the previous 2 codexes there were plenty of people that hated Tau just for what they are. The main gripe has always been that they apparently don't suit the 40k universe. I disagree, but to be fair I am a Tau player (though primarily a Marine player), and I've always very much liked their fluff and visual style right from the moment they were launched. Even when they were terrible I loved them . There are also a new batch of people that hate them because of the overpowered perception (and to be fair, they are certainly a top tier codex without question). And there are people that don't enjoy playing them because there is so much shooting and so little assault in many Tau vs anyone games. I totally get the criticisms, but it's just personal preference. Myself, I hate fighting Orks because I find huge assaults with immense numbers of dice really irritating to resolve, and boring. I also hate them visually, they are the worst race in 40k in my opinion. Everyone can just hate whoever they like though, doesn't stop me from liking my Tau or my Marines

I think I disagree with everything the OP said.

 SmackTalk wrote:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/574990.page

With very few of the armies breaking the 10 votes mark, and Tau being well over 100, and eldar just behind I don't know how any of you can argue that tau are hated because of this fluff or that play style. It's simple my dudes. Their rules are powerful and their point costs are low / do not reflect said rules or wargear. That's all there is to it. End of discussion.

There have been may threads on the subject of fluff, and Tau often rank number one in polls about "Which faction would you remove" "Which Factions fluff do you dislike the most" Etc etc. This was long before they got their current codex.

Tau hate has been strong and going on for quite a while.

They don't have 'magic' (psykers) they use technology to achieve a similar affect.

Their inability to harness the warp is their greatest disadvantage against enemies. Look at their FTL travel for instance. It's safer, but nowhere near as fast as warp travel.

They don't resort to getting in close (HtH) because that is the last place anyone wants to be in our own reality.

Neither do the Imperial Guard.

They use advanced suits to help them achieve a battlefield type advantage.

Space Marines?

They rely on ranged fire to defeat the enemy and don't care about 'honour' which prevents them giving up anything vital or making more stupid decisions.

Tau don't have honor? Tau actively try to avoid killing non-combatants, even enemy combat-medics and the like. Tau will strike a deal with you and will honor it. Tau will try a dozen times over the course of decades to use diplomacy and negotiation to get what they want from you before saying screwing it and taking it, and even when they do say screw it, they oftentimes still try to minimize collateral damage, not because they're forced to but because they don't approve of senseless violence. Tau are the most honorable race in the entire galaxy.

Boniface wrote:

They just don't fit in because they have all the inherent advantages of being Sci-fi and none of the drawback the other races have.
[...]
They rely on ranged fire to defeat the enemy and don't care about 'honour' which prevents them giving up anything vital or making more stupid decisions.

This translates really badly onto the tabletop of a game based on medieval fantasy with guns.

You've nailed it man. Tau would be just fine in like, Mass Effect or something, but they don't fit the space fantasy idea of 40k. They also have that boring rationalism thing going on - I want my 40k to be full of idiots going to war more to "purge the xenos" or "for gaks and giggles", and less for strategic purposes.

Would be cool if more people would talk about this, what you've actually based your argument on, rather than "blah blah low weapon skill this markerlights that" tabletop stuff. People should look at the artwork from older editions of 40k, and ask themselves honestly - where the hell does Tau fit into this?

With regards to that, Fragile's post sums it up. Tau breaks too many rules, just like the helldrake and D weapons

Edit:

Tau don't have honor? Tau actively try to avoid killing non-combatants, even enemy combat-medics and the like. Tau will strike a deal with you and will honor it. Tau will try a dozen times over the course of decades to use diplomacy and negotiation to get what they want from you before saying screwing it and taking it, and even when they do say screw it, they oftentimes still try to minimize collateral damage, not because they're forced to but because they don't approve of senseless violence. Tau are the most honorable race in the entire galaxy.

Yuck, the more Tau fluff I read, the more boring and bland they become. You also totally missed the point of the OP, just like most other posters ITT - the word 'honour' as he has used it is essentially 'stupidity', and the Tau don't meet the minimum stupidity quota for this setting.

 Dakkamite wrote:

You've nailed it man. Tau would be just fine in like, Mass Effect or something, but they don't fit the space fantasy idea of 40k. They also have that boring rationalism thing going on - I want my 40k to be full of idiots going to war more to "purge the xenos" or "for gaks and giggles", and less for strategic purposes.

I dunno if you've noticed, but 40k in general has begun to move towards the "generic sci-fi" direction with its themes and stories. Pragmatism is the new black, everyone is doing it (even Daemons for crying out loud!) and idiots are only mentioned for the giggles.

Yeah, I've noticed it, but that doesn't mean I have to like it!

Again the art tells the story. I miss my "black formless things with teeth", million mile tall golden throne, and all that other crap from the 3rd ed BRB

 Dakkamite wrote:
Yeah, I've noticed it, but that doesn't mean I have to like it!

Again the art tells the story. I miss my "black formless things with teeth", million mile tall golden throne, and all that other crap from the 3rd ed BRB

Then maybe the sh*tty fluff and theme are not the Tau's fault?

 Dakkamite wrote:

Yuck, the more Tau fluff I read, the more boring and bland they become. You also totally missed the point of the OP, just like most other posters ITT - the word 'honour' as he has used it is essentially 'stupidity', and the Tau don't meet the minimum stupidity quota for this setting.

I didn't miss the point at all. "Stupidity" is not the correct definition for "honor". That would be like me saying the Tau are "tall", and then getting irritated and clarifying that by "tall" I meant that their skin is blue.

If the OP wants people to understand his point, then perhaps the OP should learn proper english.

In any case, the Tau's forward thinking is refreshing to me. "Grimdark", like all "concepts", needs a canvas upon which it can contrast too. If there is no good than there is no evil. The Tau's shiny rationalization only makes the stupidity of the other races shine brighter; it doesn't diminish the Universe's grimdarkenss at all.

 Cryogen wrote:

 LiveForTheSwarm wrote:
JY2 nearly beat (and should've) a nasty TauDar list with the widely assumed "terrible new Nids Dex", because he's a smart tactician. This game is just more then a point and click game, PLAY YOUR ARMY! Don't rely on it playing itself, you'll have a lot more fun and success.

Just wanted to address this point, because it is not a reasonable one imho. Jy2 'nearly won' that game by hiding his entire nid army for most of the game to even have the 1 in 3 chance to snatch victory on objectives. And even then the only reason he even had a chance to do that was due to a big blunder on Reecius's part. I totally agree that it was by far the smartest game strategy that Jy2 had, but come on, seriously? Why on earth should a Tyranid army's best chance at victory come by hiding away for an entire game? I am not taking away from Jy2's performance and decision making (he is an excellent player), but Reece's army is the one that should have won that game, and they did. His early move to pull the relic back was brilliant and he played the board and objectives well. His only error was leaving even the possibility for a turn 5 steal. To say that the Tyranid army "should've" won that game is just subjective bias towards Tyranids. They had at best their 33% chance to steal (i.e. more likely to fail than succeed) and they didn't get it.

Back to the topic at hand though, even with the previous 2 codexes there were plenty of people that hated Tau just for what they are. The main gripe has always been that they apparently don't suit the 40k universe. I disagree, but to be fair I am a Tau player (though primarily a Marine player), and I've always very much liked their fluff and visual style right from the moment they were launched. Even when they were terrible I loved them . There are also a new batch of people that hate them because of the overpowered perception (and to be fair, they are certainly a top tier codex without question). And there are people that don't enjoy playing them because there is so much shooting and so little assault in many Tau vs anyone games. I totally get the criticisms, but it's just personal preference. Myself, I hate fighting Orks because I find huge assaults with immense numbers of dice really irritating to resolve, and boring. I also hate them visually, they are the worst race in 40k in my opinion. Everyone can just hate whoever they like though, doesn't stop me from liking my Tau or my Marines

Well I disagree and that's honestly a mentality best suited to lose... Just because I'm a Tyranids player my mentality coming into every game is not going to be "I am Tyranids! I am meant to just rush my opponent and smash face regardless if that is a good idea or not!". No, it's more going to be "What should my game plan be against the current list/army across the table from me". If it's smart to bumb rush and kill everything in sight quick fine, if it's smarter todo what jy2 did in his batrep, then so be it. As long as what I am doing inevitably gives me the greatest shot at winning, that's what I will do. Regardless of the army I play.

Tau have stupidity in spades! Read the Dark Eldar codex, where the DE get the Tau to agree to a Cultural exchange that results in an army of tau-based grotesques.

Tau have grimdark too. Has no one seen the section of the mind control worms? Or how diplomacy with the Vespid was faltering until the Tau gave them mind control "Communication" helmets?

It's a different take on grimdark than the Imperium, but then, so are half the armies in the game! It just feels out of place because the Imperium is shoved down your throat so much it seems that is the only way.

"There's no room in this giant universe for a race that isn't like the others."

What??
Or...

"I don't like them, so no one else should."

Um...okay.

scottagain wrote:
Tau have stupidity in spades! Read the Dark Eldar codex, where the DE get the Tau to agree to a Cultural exchange that results in an army of tau-based grotesques.

Tau have grimdark too. Has no one seen the section of the mind control worms? Or how diplomacy with the Vespid was faltering until the Tau gave them mind control "Communication" helmets?

It's a different take on grimdark than the Imperium, but then, so are half the armies in the game! It just feels out of place because the Imperium is shoved down your throat so much it seems that is the only way.

I'd go with this honestly. The Tau aren't good guys. If anything, they're the most insidious bastards in the entire franchise. THey look all nice and sophisticated but its just a facade built over a dark ugly reality. I just kind of wish this angle was harped more in the fluff. It gets mentioned like, one time in the old codex and like, three times in the new one and never with any certainty its always 'maybe.' The Tau fluff should better emphasis their false utopia than it currently does.

 Jimsolo wrote:
First off, I dispute that 'no-one likes Tau.' In fact, most people on dakka have a favorable opinion of them.
(...)

Good to hear that! I also believed people disliked Tau, and didn´t know why.
Exalted.

By the way: 15,38% disliked the Tau, while 62,77% said they liked them. 21,85% said they didn´t care.
That´s a 1:4 ratio haters:lovers. Quite good on the Internet.

*reads though thread. Just shakes his head and walks away*

 LiveForTheSwarm wrote:
Also, they are never going to just "delete" an entire faction.

Just thought I'd point out that this is untrue. Squats were a mainstay army in 40k in the early days and they were "dissappeared"... in 3rd I think. Written out of the fulff and everything.

 Gitsplitta wrote:

 LiveForTheSwarm wrote:
Also, they are never going to just "delete" an entire faction.

Just thought I'd point out that this is patently untrue. Squats were a mainstay army in 40k in the early days and they were "dissappeared"... in 3rd I think. Written out of the fulff and everything.

Fair enough. I guess I should've said they'd never just delete such a money drawing popular power house like Tau.

Yes, well... I doubt the Squats were generating the kind of revinue that I assume the Tau are.

Well I hated Tau when they had a completly crap codex and remember many people did too. The reason was complete lack of in your face grimdark and 3+ toyish models. Now with the new Broadsides looking incredible and Riptides looking bad but at least not being childish, Fire warriors looking good as ever, you have a visualy great army unless you look at them without helmets and remind yourself that

 ironhammer2194 wrote:
On topic, tau are disliked because they're the only optimistic race in 40k. Everyone else is either evil, insane, or tragic. Seriously, have you seen BL writers try to make tau seem just as grimdark as the other factions? It's an utter failure! The majority of 40k players (myself included) are probably more into darker scifi. Tau are just a bunch of pansies who believe in friendship.

instead of, for example, a 40k variation of B class movie grey aliens with abductions, experiments, mind control (with rules for it) etc. IMO.

 Jimsolo wrote:
Second, I don't think that the bedrock of 40k is the sci-fantasy descriptor, but rather the dystopian descriptor. To that end, Tau are absolutely in the 40k wheelhouse. If anything, the game would be better served by removing Tyranids.

Could you elaborate? No offense but that's a bit outlandish imo, leave the little characterless fish guys and get rid of huge scary murderous bug dinosaur aliens? I with all my disgust for Tau fluff don't want to see them go only a bit more into open genocide and pure evil, why would you just remove a grimdark race that was there almost from the beggining?

 BlaxicanX wrote:
In any case, the Tau's forward thinking is refreshing to me. "Grimdark", like all "concepts", needs a canvas upon which it can contrast too. If there is no good than there is no evil. The Tau's shiny rationalization only makes the stupidity of the other races shine brighter; it doesn't diminish the Universe's grimdarkenss at all.

You can contrast 40k grimdarkness with other sf, real life, art, whatever, you don't have to put Tau, ponies or fireman Sam into the universe. Tau taint the hopelessness of 40k with their naive good, not to mention the everything grimdark grimdarkness was a joke in itself, well not anymore. They spoil the mood for me and I really hope Mat Ward will grab them at some point and make a story of Crisis suits kicking pregnant mothers and building bipods for rail guns out of skulls.

It stands to reason that most non-tau players wouldn't like an army that can

Effectively neutralize your reserves with a 5 point upgrade
Negate your tactics/skill with their badly written rules with minimal player input
Have the most cost effective army in the game
Have a hard counter to nearly all, if not all of their inherent weaknesses that their codex is supposed to have.
Gets to weave their way around core game rules like LOS, cover and stat deficiencies (for their own shooting purposes)
Forces you to play their game (which they are naturally much better at) unless your army has some variation on a deepstrike alpha strike

Their codex is pretty much an easy button that plays as much of a role in winning games as the Tau player does (often times moreso).

I'm pretty sure that covers the worst points, but I could go on.

Personally I hate tau because of how boring they are to play, nobody likes getting shot to pieces from a distance by a tau castle that only really uses its shooting phase and nothing else.