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I read 1984, think it is over - advertised imo but that's a different topic. I also lived under communist government for a bit and it's all still lively around here.

The reason why I mention 1984 is just to give you an impression of the kind of evil that can be had with just a little bit of subtlety. The government depicted in 1984 is scary as hell and absolutely evil, and it is far nastier than your generic "communist" government, especially because that term covers everything from Castro's Cuba to Stalin's USSR. I am fairly certain spending some time in China does not equate to living under the government depicted in 1984. The whole point is that it is possible to conceive of horrible, evil things without having to resort to blood soaked axe murderers.

It's not that I don't like subtlety, I just don't see the need for it in 40k. All I need from fluff and art is provide me a mood for battle, I love the background visualy but I think it is rather silly and does not need a high literature kind of depth, that only makes the silly parts stand out more. I appreciate the in your face crazy rotten armies or mumbling killer fanatics of 40k and think Tau would only benefit from proper grimdark treament. If you look at my post it was intentionaly over the top and I didn't literaly mean skulls on Riptides but rather some darker designs and art instead of that sunny pictures and obvious malice instead of all those puny negotiating and propaganda to cover their little enslavement plan (if there really is a plan). It doesn't suit 40k, imo.

But there is nothing sunny about the Tau, they are showing up in battle with hi-tech weaponry and weapon platforms with the intent on surgically disassembling and annihilating the enemy. I fail to understand what is not grimdark about this.

Imagine an army of disturbingly sculpted 40k ish grey aliens riding their high tech suits, taking control over your models, turning your units against each other, throwing them around with telekinesis etc. Just one idea that I'd prefer over what they are now.

As opposed to an army of blue aliens riding their high tech suits, vaporizing your models with directed energy weapons. Again, I fail to understand what you are after here, other than perhaps giving Tau psychic powers. But if you want those why not just run Eldar, they fit the second half of your description.

btw I like some models now, broadsides, firewarriors I just don't like the faces of Tau and Kroot, the former look bland and and remind me of admiral Ackbar (and I hate Star Wars) after a few punches and the latter look like something out of Warcraft also both are characterless races look wise. For me ofc

Personally a love both models and find the Kroot with their avian carnivore theme and the little chunks of meat they carry around on hooks attached to their body (no seriously) some of the most characterful models in the game. And with over half of the armies in the game being either human or human like(Eldar, Dark Eldar) having an army composed of things that look like actual aliens is always a plus. But as they say, there really is no accounting for taste.

Peregrine wrote:
The Tau are incredibly grimdark. Think about it this way: in any other scifi setting the Tau would be the generic "expansionist evil empire", but in 40k they are the shining embodiment of hope and decency. Why? Because they're pragmatic enough to offer you a chance to surrender and accept a position of slavery before they kill you, while everyone else just kills everything that moves regardless of how much of a waste it is. Once you stop and think about the Tau ideology you immediately realize that "the greater good" is nothing more than propaganda in the glorious tradition of "manifest destiny" (complete with genociding anyone that stands in the way of progress), the US delivering "freedom" at gunpoint to anyone who happens to have some oil that we want, etc. The galaxy will be ruled by the Tau, and everyone else will submit or die. And, again, this is the best possible fate for you in 40k.


Too subtle, can't comprehend.

But it is not that subtle. They are a race who gives you the two options: join us or die, which is pretty straightforward. They just make an effort to conceal the fact, which again is just a sensible thing to do if you want an advantage against the people you are going to kill or enslave. I fail to understand how somebody who shows up a says they come in piece, but kill anyway, are too subtle to comprehend. They are just lying, it is not some sort of incomprehensible mystery.

 happygolucky wrote:

And this is the reason why Tau get so much hate is because of how much people are willing to abuse the rules a set of poorly written rules and create abusive lists with Tau, just to win a game of toy soldiers.

This is why Tau get so much hate.

Excuse me, but I must have misread something. See, my codex states that I can choose up to three elites in a single FOC with no mention or repeating units. I only have three options. Why am I the bad guy for choosing three units that I'm perfectly allowed to field?

The reason why I mention 1984 is just to give you an impression of the kind of evil that can be had with just a little bit of subtlety. The government depicted in 1984 is scary as hell and absolutely evil, and it is far nastier than your generic "communist" government, especially because that term covers everything from Castro's Cuba to Stalin's USSR. I am fairly certain spending some time in China does not equate to living under the government depicted in 1984.

Dude what the hell do you know about living under communist rule ? Want some examples of stuff from my family here are some .

When my mother was born , my grandfather was so happy that he got drunk on that day . Next day he woke up and went to work not going back home , only buying stuff in a specialy party store [hint: If he tried to buy anything in a normal store there would be nothing there and alkohol was sold from 10 and you were lucky if there was a store at all anywhere near . There were placed where 20-30k people had no store within 1hour trip] . When he entered he said that this is a wonderful day , and that he brought sweets and alkohol for everyone . What he didn't know was that that night radio said that Stalin died . 1 hour later my grandfather got taken by the militia , severly beaten , taken to a judge and send to 2 years in prison , out of which he spent 1 your in a labor camp .

Another one .
My fathers brother went to a pilot military school , there weren't any non military ones anyway . A guy who lived in the same room as him and 4 other dudes , had family in Sweden and tried to escape . He got caught and shot while trying . The MPs came and arested my uncle and the people that were in the room. now this was post 1956 and my fathers family changed their last name to less jewish sounding ones . But of course the MP had papers on how they were called before the war . This made my uncle an untrustworthy citizent . After 4 months in custody he and the other guys were let out of prison , only my uncle was kicked out of school and given the so called wolf ticket . With that he couldn't study at any university , couldn't find any job in the public sector . For two years he was trying to get work in private sector , but each time people from the Bezpika came and he ended up without a job . in 1962 he left for Israel . He was forbiden from taking more stuff then he could carry with him , he lost his home to the state . Ah and when my uncle was in custody , the first 2 months his family wasn't informed where he is , if he is alive etc. My grand father had to give a huge bribe to get info in which prison he was held . And of course when he came there asking for him , they said that my uncle wasn't there the few first time . Even when my grandfather had a court verdict that allowed a lawyer to see [not talk] to my uncle they just beat my grandfather and the lawyer up , calling them nasty names.

Yet another one , this time with my oldest brother.
My brother was born in 1980 a few months before commnists decleared the state of war in Poland. He got sick in 1981 and my grandfather again paid a bribe to get medicin for him . He made it in to Warsaw , which wasn't easy he had to pay even more in bribes to get a special pass and even more to the soldiers who didn't care about passes . My grandmother sold all her jewlery to pay for the trip ,but they didn't have money for the bribes needed to go back . At the same time the communists militerized all factories , TV, public transportation etc. If my grandfather wouldn't show up at work , it would be as if he deserted his work placed , Which was an 8 year in jail normaly , but technicly could lead to a death penelity if the judge decided that the act was done to "spite our country" . So my grandfather had no options . He had a legal pass , but still got stoped , went to jail for 10 months and because he had bad rolls in his car[to protect the medicin] , the militia thought that he was smuggling stuff . For 10 months he was beaten and interogated every day many times , he lost a kidney because of how he was beaten . Also in later life his eye sight got very poor , because for 10 months he wasn't getting any insulin for his diabetes.

This is just 3 stories and my family considered themselfs lucky and even rich . there were people who didn't have money to pay bribes and they weren't workers and some had the option to leave the country . Imagine you would have to live in a country for 10+ years and have no work and you can't leave , because your not jewish . Or when the avarge wait time to get a 30+ square meters home was 20+years .

Don't tell stories about communism when you don't know a thing about it .

That sounds absolutely horrible Makumba, and you have my sympathies. That being said, please do not accuse me of talking about living under communist rule when that was not what I was discussing. I was just pointing out how horrible the government in 1984 was and how the conditions under a number of different governments labeled as communist obviously vary between the governments. Sure there all pretty bad but I am fairly certain Stalin's USSR was worse than Castro's Cuba. Also, keep in mind this was a response to a poster whose comments, at least as I interpreted, seemed to indicate that communism just wasn't a very big deal, while I was trying to argue that which was depicted in 1984 (which appears to be modeled in no small part after the practices of communist and other totalitarian governments) were worse than a lot of the stuff depicted in 40k. Basically I was just describing how awful things are in the novel 1984, which I have read, so please pay attention to the context and direction of these threads before making these kinds of accusations.

The only thing I don't like about Tau is that they feel shoehorned into the series. Same with Necrons.

Evil Eldar have kind of always been around in one form or another. On the other hand, you've got Tau and Necrons that weren't around in RT and came post-3rd Edition. IMO if it wasn't in 40k 2nd edition, it feels out of place.

IMO if it wasn't in 40k 2nd edition, it feels out of place.

Unfortunately, if you limit everything to 2e then you can never really add new races. At best you could add things like new space marine factions, but those are among the most boring variations in race in this game. I vastly prefer having factions like Necrons and Tau to having factions like Space Wolves and Blood Angels.

I like variety.

Phanixis wrote:

I read 1984, think it is over - advertised imo but that's a different topic. I also lived under communist government for a bit and it's all still lively around here.

The reason why I mention 1984 is just to give you an impression of the kind of evil that can be had with just a little bit of subtlety. The government depicted in 1984 is scary as hell and absolutely evil, and it is far nastier than your generic "communist" government, especially because that term covers everything from Castro's Cuba to Stalin's USSR. I am fairly certain spending some time in China does not equate to living under the government depicted in 1984. The whole point is that it is possible to conceive of horrible, evil things without having to resort to blood soaked axe murderers.

Phanixis wrote:
Also, keep in mind this was a response to a poster whose comments, at least as I interpreted, seemed to indicate that communism just wasn't a very big deal, while I was trying to argue that which was depicted in 1984 (which appears to be modeled in no small part after the practices of communist and other totalitarian governments) were worse than a lot of the stuff depicted in 40k. Basically I was just describing how awful things are in the novel 1984, which I have read, so please pay attention to the context and direction of these threads before making these kinds of accusations.

You interpreted wrong, what I wanted to say is 1984 is just a story when my granfather actualy lived under Stalin. I was being too vague I guess, the point is barely anyone here needs education on how totalitarian regimes work.

Fragile wrote:
The main reason Tau are "disliked" here is simply they get to bypass many things in the game.

It's only a problem when xenos do it apparently, because Space Marines have been breaking the rules for as long as I can remember and no one cares.

 Sidstyler wrote:

Fragile wrote:
The main reason Tau are "disliked" here is simply they get to bypass many things in the game.

It's only a problem when xenos do it apparently, because Space Marines have been breaking the rules for as long as I can remember and no one cares.

Well don't worry, because ATSKNF basically does nothing in 6th edition.

 Sidstyler wrote:

Fragile wrote:
The main reason Tau are "disliked" here is simply they get to bypass many things in the game.

It's only a problem when xenos do it apparently, because Space Marines have been breaking the rules for as long as I can remember and no one cares.

Yeah, no one ever complains about Marines or ATSKNF. Totally.

Ask marine players to play without the rule and see if it changes anything in the course of the game. I've played without it several times, and never really missed it.

We simply can't get rid of Tau in 40K, because then everyone who wants to be in the cool group by hating a faction would have to go back to hating the Ultramarines, and that's so "last year".

The Tau are only a problem because of 6th edition and the GW business practices therin. I would have faced them in 3rd-5th edition with no problems.

Wow, shocker.....I could repost this and simply change all mention of "Tau" to "Eldar" and it would still be right.

Martel732 wrote:
Ask marine players to play without the rule and see if it changes anything in the course of the game. I've played without it several times, and never really missed it.

I've had a couple of Xeno players REFUSE to let me do this. I think they were scared to see the result.

 Sidstyler wrote:

Fragile wrote:
The main reason Tau are "disliked" here is simply they get to bypass many things in the game.

It's only a problem when xenos do it apparently, because Space Marines have been breaking the rules for as long as I can remember and no one cares.

Please, tell me more. I'd love to hear it. Do tell.

What do marines bypass?

ATSKNF.... anything else?

Vanilla Marines have been the most balanced army in the game since 5th edition.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
What do marines bypass?

ATSKNF.... anything else?

Deep Strike/Reserve shenanigans with Drop Pods.

Allying with themselfs and mixing IH and WS chapter traits in the same army , without the need to buy a separate book . Other armies either can't ally with themselfs or have to buy a supplement codex to do it .

I'm pretty sure they can. And Born in the Saddle and Bolter Drill in the same army pales in comparison to ingnoring LOS, cover and totally neutralizing your opponents reserves for 15 points (5 per riptide). I think you'll have to do quite a bit better than that to make your point.

Sure there is no problem with having a IH eternal shield chapter master with IWND in a grav bike unit or command squad get all the WS traits , just because you bought an ally Khan or WS chapter master. Only a 24" movement on turn 1 , two tanks one of which is realy hard to kill and grav guns to kill MCs/meq/teq. And you don't have to buy a 50$ supplement book or another codex to do it .

The marine codex is so lack luster my BA have a winning record against it. Grav guns are meh compared to weapons Xenos already have.

My first army was Tau and I actually enjoyed their fluff, especially commander Farsight. However I simply did not like the way they played. I made the 6th ed codex my decision point as to if I would still play them or not, hoping that commander Farsight and his unique fire warriors would offer some versitility. But the new codex was only an op version of the first so I sold them.

To answer the main question Imo, I feel that people hate the Tau because it is painful to remove your models that you painstakenly painted and custumized of the table right after you put it on, then spend the rest of the time hiding the others behind cover.


Orks are my second and only team and I love playing them, no matter if I win or lose it is difficult for the other person to deny that they take tactics to play, of course not spaming bikers, dakka jets and lootas, and that my opponint always causes a good degree of orky death as well.

Makumba wrote:
Sure there is no problem with having a IH eternal shield chapter master with IWND in a grav bike unit or command squad get all the WS traits , just because you bought an ally Khan or WS chapter master. Only a 24" movement on turn 1 , two tanks one of which is realy hard to kill and grav guns to kill MCs/meq/teq. And you don't have to buy a 50$ supplement book or another codex to do it .

That doesn't override/conflict with the rules stated in the BRB. The crap that tau does in my above post does. You realize you CAN ally tau with tau, right? How else does one run quad riprides? Either way both Scars ans IH have the faults of every MEQ army and can't share chapter tactics. What you're proposing would cost on the order of 700+ points to run well. How much for 3 riptides and a unit of markerdrones? The tau dex is one big fat cheesewheel. The SM dex has sprinkles of shreddes cheddar here and there. Perhaps having to buy that second $50 book is the universe's way of saying "don't be a dick to your opponents".

 AtoMaki wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
What do marines bypass?

ATSKNF.... anything else?

Deep Strike/Reserve shenanigans with Drop Pods.

Some of these may be out of date:
Emperor's Champion.
AV14 LRs that are not reduced by Lances.
Do they still auto-rally at the table edge instead of running off?
... Oh and do they still arbitrarily count their clearly Open Top vehicles (Land Speeders and such) as non-Open Top? (To spite this rule I used to insist that my DE Raider full of Incubi was therefore also not Open Top... SM players didn't appreciate that. There sentiment is echoed throughout this thread. "Only SMs are allowed to ignore rules!")

Pretty sure the LR ignoring lances is a thing of the past, and you are seriously overvaluing landspeeders. SM can most definitely run off the board. None of what you mentioned impacts the game in a huge... or even marginally big way. Never played with the emperors champ, but I know he's a beast in CC and you get what you pay for. Some of those prayers are kinda ridiculous though.

A str 9 ap2 plate of death per riptide smokng a unit per blast coming in from reserves... for 5 pts, (aside from being the cheesiest goddamn thing I've ever experienced) effects the game in a huge way, as does missiles not needing LOS, and being able to negate any and all cover saves for your opponent(which is always invariably followed by a single markerlight buffing the taus BS by 2pts). Are you seeing how those have a more noticable impact than a landspeeder giving a weapon shooting it an additional +1 on the damage chart?

 AtoMaki wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
What do marines bypass?

ATSKNF.... anything else?

Deep Strike/Reserve shenanigans with Drop Pods.

Don't think that really counts. That's like pointing out that imperial guard ignores established rules because flamers ignore cover, or because Commisar Lords are fearless. Drop Pods are a specific vehicle that you have to pay for to use, and you can only put certain units inside of them. It's not something you get for free, or that affects your whole army. Markerlights (though they aren't always free), benefit your entire army in a myriad of ways. Same with the Eldar's battle-focus, psuedo-rending etc.

 Archonate wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
What do marines bypass?

ATSKNF.... anything else?

Deep Strike/Reserve shenanigans with Drop Pods.

Some of these may be out of date:
Emperor's Champion.
AV14 LRs that are not reduced by Lances.
Do they still auto-rally at the table edge instead of running off?
... Oh and do they still arbitrarily count their clearly Open Top vehicles (Land Speeders and such) as non-Open Top? (To spite this rule I used to insist that my DE Raider full of Incubi was therefore also not Open Top... SM players didn't appreciate that. There sentiment is echoed throughout this thread. "Only SMs are allowed to ignore rules!")

The Incubi might be wearing power equivalent armour. The crew of the Raider most certainly is not.

Really I just think the complaints about Tau breaking the rules of the game revolve around the Riptide.

We had the ability to ignore cover last edition. Nobody complained about plasma rifles and railguns breaking the game. I don't think anyone would complain about them now.

The Riptide's AP2 gun seems to be what really gets people upset about the ignoring cover thing, which costs extra I might add. You can't ignore cover when firing it as an Interceptor, and it doesn't ignored LOS. The only weapon that ignores LOS is the SMS.

I think Tau wouldn't get as many complaints if they just swapped the Riptide and the Hammerhead's Ion cannons.

It has a lot to do with 6th edition. Tau's list of tricks haven't actually changed a whole lot, but the context of the game has changed. Tau are the best shooting army in an edition where shooting is everything. Tau can ignore cover en masse in an edition where cover is extremely important, especially for melee armies. Tau have anti-air out the ass in an edition where flyers are extremely popular and integral to a lot of army builds. Etc etc.

They're basically just tailor-made to be the kings of 6th edition.

 Sidstyler wrote:

Fragile wrote:
The main reason Tau are "disliked" here is simply they get to bypass many things in the game.

It's only a problem when xenos do it apparently, because Space Marines have been breaking the rules for as long as I can remember and no one cares.

Examples would be good.