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Okay cultists killing a riptide is very unrealistic. Hitting half the time, they only wound 1/6th the time and then only have a 1/6th chance of wounding. Anyways, honestly I've often found it best to just ignore it. Sure, it is devestating, but it takes too much effort to kill. Too many wounds, too high of a save, too good of an invuln, too tough, too mobile, maybe some drone protections. I'd rather kill those marker lights and buffmanders

 DarthSpader wrote:
Yeeesh. More bitching about tau an riptides. Every edition, people find some army to piss and moan about, and try to make guys who like the army in question feel like douches for using them.

We got literally this exact thread on necrons. Remember mss? Night scythe spam? Imotekh lightning?

Before that it was gk draigo wing.

Then the DE venomspam

And so on and so on.

Seriously, just.... STAHP with the pissing and moaning. The simple fact is this: the rules are the rules. Either accept this and play the game, or don't. But whining on forums literally does nothing, and certainly won't make GW issue a new codex for said army with a "whoops sorry we screwed up so here's a fix" and it definitely won't make someone put away hundreds or even thousands of dollars in minis just because they are the hated martyr of the season.

Learn to deal with these. In about 6 months the next thing will be out and everyone will hate on that.

And just because I'm nice, killing riptides is easy. All you do is shoot them. Seriously. Force enough wounds, and they go down. Treat em exactly like any other 2+ armor 5 wound unit. Heck, throw enough Bolter fire at them and they die. (Insert math hammer but but but) shove your math up your disruption pod. I've seen CULTISTS take down a riptide 3 wounds in a single shooting phase. I've seen marines do the same. Heck, a dev squad with missile launchers will do it. DE just laugh and say splinter cannons at that thing, and so on. Learn to deal and stop whimpering like a kid who just got his pogs confiscated.

Yeesh

Since you asked for it, it takes on average 360 BS4 bolter shots to take down a Riptide with FNP. If you think that's a reliable way to kill Riptides there's nothing I can do for you other than shake my head.

Eh, I don't really dislike the Tau for anything lore wise. Rule wise I suppose there are some annoying tid bits, but it's nothing I can't deal with.

Phanixis wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:It's not that I don't like subtlety, I just don't see the need for it in 40k. All I need from fluff and art is provide me a mood for battle, I love the background visualy but I think it is rather silly and does not need a high literature kind of depth, that only makes the silly parts stand out more. I appreciate the in your face crazy rotten armies or mumbling killer fanatics of 40k and think Tau would only benefit from proper grimdark treament. If you look at my post it was intentionaly over the top and I didn't literaly mean skulls on Riptides but rather some darker designs and art instead of that sunny pictures and obvious malice instead of all those puny negotiating and propaganda to cover their little enslavement plan (if there really is a plan). It doesn't suit 40k, imo.

But there is nothing sunny about the Tau, they are showing up in battle with hi-tech weaponry and weapon platforms with the intent on surgically disassembling and annihilating the enemy. I fail to understand what is not grimdark about this.

Artwork is hardly grimdark, especialy if they're the only guys on the picture, look at the Tau picture in BRB where the factions are presented. Imperium, Chaos, Nids and all look like something from 40k but If you didn't have the fluff and wasn't told that Tau are from 40k, you wouldn't guess it probably. They look like something that could be from Star Wars or Mass Effect or sth.

Phanixis wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:Imagine an army of disturbingly sculpted 40k ish grey aliens riding their high tech suits, taking control over your models, turning your units against each other, throwing them around with telekinesis etc. Just one idea that I'd prefer over what they are now.

As opposed to an army of blue aliens riding their high tech suits, vaporizing your models with directed energy weapons. Again, I fail to understand what you are after here, other than perhaps giving Tau psychic powers. But if you want those why not just run Eldar, they fit the second half of your description.

Blue aliens that look bland and characterless, I'm after giving them some more menacing look than that of walking blue fishes. That's only me ofc because

Phanixis wrote:
as they say, there really is no accounting for taste.

btw I don't want to run Tau or Eldar or sth, I just want the factions in the universe to be grim and dark, not vaguely maybe a little bit grim and mostly sunny.

Plumbumbarum wrote:

Phanixis wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:Imagine an army of disturbingly sculpted 40k ish grey aliens riding their high tech suits, taking control over your models, turning your units against each other, throwing them around with telekinesis etc. Just one idea that I'd prefer over what they are now.

As opposed to an army of blue aliens riding their high tech suits, vaporizing your models with directed energy weapons. Again, I fail to understand what you are after here, other than perhaps giving Tau psychic powers. But if you want those why not just run Eldar, they fit the second half of your description.

Blue aliens that look bland and characterless.

Just like every other alien faction (hell, every other faction period) in the universe. From We-Are-Not-Elves and their 2Edgy4Me cousins through the Space Tomb Kings to the Zerg Ripoffs.

 AtoMaki wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:

Phanixis wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:Imagine an army of disturbingly sculpted 40k ish grey aliens riding their high tech suits, taking control over your models, turning your units against each other, throwing them around with telekinesis etc. Just one idea that I'd prefer over what they are now.

As opposed to an army of blue aliens riding their high tech suits, vaporizing your models with directed energy weapons. Again, I fail to understand what you are after here, other than perhaps giving Tau psychic powers. But if you want those why not just run Eldar, they fit the second half of your description.

Blue aliens that look bland and characterless.

Just like every other alien faction (hell, every other faction period) in the universe. From We-Are-Not-Elves and their 2Edgy4Me cousins through the Space Tomb Kings to the Zerg Ripoffs.

The Zerg ripoffs that existed before Starcraft was released?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:

Phanixis wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:Imagine an army of disturbingly sculpted 40k ish grey aliens riding their high tech suits, taking control over your models, turning your units against each other, throwing them around with telekinesis etc. Just one idea that I'd prefer over what they are now.

As opposed to an army of blue aliens riding their high tech suits, vaporizing your models with directed energy weapons. Again, I fail to understand what you are after here, other than perhaps giving Tau psychic powers. But if you want those why not just run Eldar, they fit the second half of your description.

Blue aliens that look bland and characterless.

Just like every other alien faction (hell, every other faction period) in the universe. From We-Are-Not-Elves and their 2Edgy4Me cousins through the Space Tomb Kings to the Zerg Ripoffs.

The Zerg ripoffs that existed before Starcraft was released?

Yes. And this is easily one of the saddest things in the history of 40k (being roughly on the same level as a certain Guardsman who turned out to be an immortal superhuman).

 AtoMaki wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:

Phanixis wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:Imagine an army of disturbingly sculpted 40k ish grey aliens riding their high tech suits, taking control over your models, turning your units against each other, throwing them around with telekinesis etc. Just one idea that I'd prefer over what they are now.

As opposed to an army of blue aliens riding their high tech suits, vaporizing your models with directed energy weapons. Again, I fail to understand what you are after here, other than perhaps giving Tau psychic powers. But if you want those why not just run Eldar, they fit the second half of your description.

Blue aliens that look bland and characterless.

Just like every other alien faction (hell, every other faction period) in the universe. From We-Are-Not-Elves and their 2Edgy4Me cousins through the Space Tomb Kings to the Zerg Ripoffs.

The Zerg ripoffs that existed before Starcraft was released?

Yes. And this is easily one of the saddest things in the history of 40k (being roughly on the same level as a certain Guardsman who turned out to be an immortal superhuman).

Not really. The only thing arguably ripped off from Zerg are Raveners, but that was just returning the favor. And there was Chaos Snake long before Zerg that could have been what Blizzard ripped off.

Tyranids are Aliens, Predator and other B alien movies from the time ripoff, mixed with space dragons at some point and space bug dinosaurs later.

Zerg and Tyranids are both rip offs of Aliens, who ripped off Robert Heinlein, who probably ripped off someone else.

 AtoMaki wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:

Phanixis wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:Imagine an army of disturbingly sculpted 40k ish grey aliens riding their high tech suits, taking control over your models, turning your units against each other, throwing them around with telekinesis etc. Just one idea that I'd prefer over what they are now.

As opposed to an army of blue aliens riding their high tech suits, vaporizing your models with directed energy weapons. Again, I fail to understand what you are after here, other than perhaps giving Tau psychic powers. But if you want those why not just run Eldar, they fit the second half of your description.

Blue aliens that look bland and characterless.

Just like every other alien faction (hell, every other faction period) in the universe. From We-Are-Not-Elves and their 2Edgy4Me cousins through the Space Tomb Kings to the Zerg Ripoffs.

I only agree with Eldar looking kind of bland but it's nowhere close to Tau, Dark Eldar not my taste but grimdark for sure. Other than that Tyranids look incredible, Hive Tyrant is a better design than Giger Alien imo, Chaos Space Marines, Daemons, Guard, Imperium all full of character and grimdark grimdarkness.

Tomb Kings in space look funny but that's only lately, Necrons before as silent death march were great.

Plumbumbarum wrote:

Not really. The only thing arguably ripped off from Zerg are Raveners, but that was just returning the favor. And there was Chaos Snake long before Zerg that could have been what Blizzard ripped off.

Tyranids are Aliens, Predator and other B alien movies from the time ripoff, mixed with space dragons at some point and space bug dinosaurs later.

Come on, just compare the pre-SC Tyranids with the post-SC Tyranids: the "Zergification" is pretty darn evident IMHO.

 AtoMaki wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:

Not really. The only thing arguably ripped off from Zerg are Raveners, but that was just returning the favor. And there was Chaos Snake long before Zerg that could have been what Blizzard ripped off.

Tyranids are Aliens, Predator and other B alien movies from the time ripoff, mixed with space dragons at some point and space bug dinosaurs later.

Come on, just compare the pre-SC Tyranids with the post-SC Tyranids: the "Zergification" is pretty darn evident IMHO.

Yes I did as played both 40k and Starcraft

Second edition Tyranid codex:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/269155.page

every element of later Zerg bar the snake tail is there - talons, grins etc

Zerg Hydralisk from 1st Starcraft - talons from hormagaunt, chest from warrior that is on the cover art.

http://pharmclips.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/zerg-hydralisk-by-gyromorgian-on-deviantart-vflvqa9k.jpg

Then there was Ultralisk, a 4 legs variation of Screamer Killer with Alien Queen head slapped on top

http://static2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080503040125/starcraft/images/1/1d/Ultralisk_SC-G_Art1.jpg

I don't have time to post other units but imo it is obvious Blizzard ripped of GW, which is even more evident when you look at how blatant ripoff Warcraft is.

Not to mention they look crap imo, as do Starcraft Terran armors and most things there in general. Even if GW did ripoff them, they made it look x100 better. But they just returned the favor imo and used some Zerg elements for the 3rd edition nids, also noticed how Blizzard is even more blatant with ripping off Alien than they were before so that I guess kind of encouraged them to use Alien Queen type head more.

Also I don't know why did you say it is a sad story that Gw ripped off Zerg, they rip off everybody all the time only twist it to super duper grimdark millions, there is nothing original in 40k. Blizzard mainly just ripps off GW and imo makes the material worse.

Plumbumbarum wrote:

I don't have time to post other units but imo it is obvious Blizzard ripped of GW, which is even more evident when you look at how blatant ripoff Warcraft is.

Yeah, I don't say that Blizzard didn't rip off GW. But then GW ripped off Starcraft.

Plumbumbarum wrote:

Also I don't know why did you say it is a sad story that Gw ripped off Zerg, they rip off everybody all the time only twist it to super duper grimdark millions, there is nothing original in 40k. Blizzard mainly just ripps off GW and imo makes the material worse.

See above. It is like you eat something, throw it back up because it is bad then someone else cooks a cake from your vomit and you eat it again because it is now better. It is just plain disgusting.

Arguments about who ripped off who aside, the main reason people freak out about Tau in this edition is because they are so efficient. They do have some tough units that are hard to defeat. At best, I have a 50/50 shot against them using an optimized CSM list.

That said, I disagree with the OP's assertion that the problem has to do with the genre. It's perfectly fine to have a technologically superior race in the game so long as the mechanics are suitably adjusted. Tau simply unbalance a lot of things for a lot of people, and it's important to recognize that is the problem and adjust.

About 30% of the players at my FLGS are Tau players. There's one CSM player who beats them reliably with a 6 Heldrake list - in fact, he has never lost a game against Tau playing with this list. At best, Tau players shoot down 3 of his Heldrakes while the rest eliminate everything that is not a Riptide. He brings other forces as well that finish off his opponent and wins on victory points. Tau players still have to have scoring units to win in most scenarios and it's not hard to see how a list optimized towards killing those units can do some damage.

Before everyone starts screaming about spam, please realize I am not arguing this is the 'right' way to play 40k. But it illustrates a point, fighting Tau is a matter of making unconventional decisions to deal with the imbalances created by their Codex. When I play against anything with a Riptide, I am usually not trying to kill units in my opponent's army so much as subject them to leadership tests. Fear and Fearless are actually the best things CSMs have going for them versus Tau. I have chased more Riptides off the board than I have killed them, even with units you would not expect to be strong against them (i.e. bikers, raptors, even CSMs.)

Another thing is Forgeworld. I proxy my Land Raiders as Spartan Assault Tanks right now. There is a huge difference between AV 14 with 3 HP and 5 HP in terms of having a tank that survives and delivers assault units into combat. And yes, 20 man blobs of CSMs with MoK are vicious against Tau at close quarters. I also take a Contemptor Dread with a conversion beamer. Being able to shoot across the board with a S 10 heavy blast is extremely effective against Tau armies, it makes up for the problems with Defilers in a big way and gives you a response to some of the worst abuses of the Tau Codex.

I don't have all the answers to fighting Tau, but the underlying mechanics they break can really only be dealt with through better troop selection and tactics. You really have to play a different style when fighting them in order to win. This might get back to what the OP was saying, that they don't fit into the genre because you really can't play against them the same way as other armies.

People let you proxy a FW unit without an actual FW model , is it for all people in your community or do you just have high status in it ?
And 6 helldrakes kill more or less any army that can't spam av 13+ or +2svs.

 dementedwombat wrote:

Things change. Tau sat out 2 pretty horrible editions (remember when we used to be the oldest non-BT codex that everybody laughed at?). Now we're on top. Probably once 7th edition drops we'll be back on the bottom of the heap because our rules are so custom tailored to 6th.

A number of people seem to share this idea. The thing is, the power level of tau in the past editions does not matter. They certainly should not have been underpowered in previous editions, but it doesn't change the fact that they shouldn't be overpowered now. Success at 40k should not depend on playing a codex at the correct time in the release cycle.

I don't mean to single you out dementedwombat but i've seen this idea come up a few times and I am tired of it.

 AtoMaki wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:

I don't have time to post other units but imo it is obvious Blizzard ripped of GW, which is even more evident when you look at how blatant ripoff Warcraft is.

Yeah, I don't say that Blizzard didn't rip off GW. But then GW ripped off Starcraft.

Calling them Zerg rippoffs is only half the true then (at best), especialy that they don't look like that anymore.

 AtoMaki wrote:

Plumbumbarum wrote:

Also I don't know why did you say it is a sad story that Gw ripped off Zerg, they rip off everybody all the time only twist it to super duper grimdark millions, there is nothing original in 40k. Blizzard mainly just ripps off GW and imo makes the material worse.

See above. It is like you eat something, throw it back up because it is bad then someone else cooks a cake from your vomit and you eat it again because it is now better. It is just plain disgusting.

funny especialy that GW does it to some extent all the time, lately with Warmachine for Chaos Dinobots I think?

Anyway ok, that is some way to look at it. How I see it, except for Ravener and maybe, just maybe Zoanthrope, it's really hard to say as GW just streamlined the look of Nids using elements that you can find on their designs before and the same elements were used by Blizzard for Zerg. Zerg ripoffs far too much said, imo.

Anyway back to the original argument, they are not bland and characterless.

GorillaWarfare wrote:

 dementedwombat wrote:

Things change. Tau sat out 2 pretty horrible editions (remember when we used to be the oldest non-BT codex that everybody laughed at?). Now we're on top. Probably once 7th edition drops we'll be back on the bottom of the heap because our rules are so custom tailored to 6th.

A number of people seem to share this idea. The thing is, the power level of tau in the past editions does not matter. They certainly should not have been underpowered in previous editions, but it doesn't change the fact that they shouldn't be overpowered now. Success at 40k should not depend on playing a codex at the correct time in the release cycle.

I don't mean to single you out dementedwombat but i've seen this idea come up a few times and I am tired of it.

It's fine. You were quite civil about it. I'd say the proper response is to hate the GW design team though, not the army or the people who play it (unless they annoy you independently of the army I guess).

After playing Tau since 3rd edition I've pretty much gone so apathetic to rules balance at this point that I just shrug and grin no matter what happens. I suppose that's probably not the best idea but I just can't find it inside myself to get worked up about a game I play for fun and hobby stuff.

As much as I will say that Tau are definitely and firmly overpowered in the new Codex, I will say this:

Most people complaining about the tau most likely didn't have a problem enjoying the game when their chosen faction was seen in the same exact light as the Tau are right now. Because GW is stuck in this endless cycle of one codex at a time getting the new toy treatment.

I think that nearly every single faction in 40K is guilty of at least once being the "OMG overpowered faction" when their newest codex was released (or they were released as a new race to the game), to drive sales. For Tau to (truly) hit that point just took three editions.

Actually, you would be wrong. I got very sick of 3rd very quickly because all my victories were written off as "BA being BA". I don't like overpowered lists in my hands or my enemies' hands. It cheapens victories.

One person doesn;'t make me wrong, when it's been mentioned before in this very thread by others. Maybe you are just one of a few stacked against the players of Draigowing, flying croissants, Blood Angel rhino rushes, Venomspam, multiple-Heldrakes, Mindshackle scarabs, that new Daemon deathstar setup, etc.

It's all cyclical, all the way back to Space Wolves in 2nd edition.

Space Wolves weren't even that good in 2nd. Eldar, Tyranids, and CSM were all much, much better.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
One person doesn;'t make me wrong, when it's been mentioned before in this very thread by others. Maybe you are just one of a few stacked against the players of Draigowing, flying croissants, Blood Angel rhino rushes, Venomspam, multiple-Heldrakes, Mindshackle scarabs, that new Daemon deathstar setup, etc.

It's all cyclical, all the way back to Space Wolves in 2nd edition.

And remember how people hated tau back when fish of fury was still a thing?

Space Wolves weren't even that good in 2nd. Eldar, Tyranids, and CSM were all much, much better.

All I know is that I added them because I always hear people speak of hating how broken they were when they came out. I never particularly thought so, or at least never experienced anything broken about them.

Although.......... speaking of Space Wolves reminds me to put them on the "OP list" I posted previously, when everyone screamed about them after their last codex came out- the one that introduced JOTWW and Wolves riding wolves.

Yeah, the Space Wolf codex is still unfair compared to other meq codices, with the possible exception of C:SM. They are chaos marines ++ and my BA can't hold their jock straps. Space Wolves and GK are the two armies I can't watch get Taudared to death enough.

...Can you change your profile pic...It scares me when I look at it....

Why do people dislike tau? Easy question:

i) From a fluff perspective they are not grimdark enough (although vetock and the farsight enclaves added some, manipulating ethereals, who knew...)
They fit into the fluff ok, although I feel some times they are a bit too deus ex machina. They always conveniently pull something out of somewhere to save themselves in a bad situation.

ii) From a rules perspective it is because their codex is so good. Now I don't mean overpowered here. I mean very capable.

The tau codex has the capability to take on almost any threat. They have some of the best skyfire and interceptor choices of 6th ed so far, they have massed infantry firepower, maneuverable battlesuits, a new tough to kill mc and some fairly decent tanks.
Back these things up with the likes of buffmander, markerlights and ethereals and you have a book which has few natural weaknesses.
Also, most the stuff is well priced.

Pick a FOC slot for tau, and there are often several good choices for it.

If you compare Codex DA, or CSM to tau, they seem almost unfinished. Tau have more viable options, and synergy between units.

Personally I don't begrudge tau for this, I simply wish all Codices were completed to the same standard as tau.

Have a guy who plays at our store who fields (in 1500points)

1 Farsight,
1 IC Riptide
3 Suits w/ Plasma Guns and Flamers

1 Buff commander with the Puretide Chip, MSSS and C&CN
1 Riptide w/ Burstcannon, TL SMS, Skyfire, Target Lock, and 2 Drones.
1 Riptide w/ Ion Accelerator, TL SMS (i think).
3 minimum Kroot Squads (other than Sniper Rounds, that is)
1 Skyray

All at 1500 points.

Ouch.

EDIT: My problem with Tau, is, if built in such a way, can be a more point and click army than Space Marines at this point. Now, I love me my Space Marines, but being able to essentially ignore the ramifications of Leadership tests and being unable to be swept is a pretty big set of fundamental rules they can ignore.

Tau, with all of their various little pieces of wargear, can Split fire without the Leadership Test, Ignore Cover, get Monster/Tank Hunter, Twin Link all of their guns (which is huge on blast weapons!), and many others that allow them to get buffs and ignore the bonuses of other armies for relatively on the cheap.

Crazyterran wrote:


Tau, with all of their various little pieces of wargear, can Split fire without the Leadership Test, Ignore Cover, get Monster/Tank Hunter, Twin Link all of their guns (which is huge on blast weapons!), and many others that allow them to get buffs and ignore the bonuses of other armies for relatively on the cheap.

You might be on to something here. Part of the annoyance is that the Tau ignore special rules that you've paid for and have to rely on. Playing a Drop Pod list? Well, 5 point Interceptor, ain't that a shame? Playing a biker army? Enjoy that Jink Save you won't get. Night Fighting? Nope. Blind? Nope.

Seriously, I can't even understand the Riptide's design and people who are always defending such units are either hypocrites or just never played anything outside Tau.
Not only they are great, relatively cheap for everything they do, and they are elite !
You can discuss tastes and fluff to death, everybody will have a different point of view on the place Tau have in the wh40k universe. But rule wise...